The inspector that will be doing my rough in inspection expects to see at my boxes that all connections are made up, is she asking that black are joined by wire nuts, whites and ground also? I would add pig tails at this time? what does she want to see? Sparky’s be kind. Thanks
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Replies
I'm not sure about the pigtails. However, they want to see that the connections have no "shiners" (bare copper). So they want all connections made, no unattached wires.
Also any metal boxes have a ground screw and attached to a ground.
Basically anything that would be covered when the devices are attached should be finished.
Pigtails is an interesting question.
You should ask the inspector about that, and what they want.
Our guy wanted to see the wires ready for connecting to the sockets. Rolled into the box so the drywall guys would not hit them.
Romax attached to the stud side close to the box but away from being damaged.
Nail plates where needed to protect from nails or screws.
Connections made and labeled in the circuit breaker box, turned off!
Every inspector has their own preferences, but neat and tidy makes a great impression! Kind of looks like you care and have a clue!
Only the inspector can tell you. Conventions vary by location, and even the individual inspector.
Here (Sacramento, CA), both City and County inspectors require grounding conductors to be spliced on rough-in, and with Buchanans (crimp sleeves). The rest can be left for trim out.
I usually also splice the neutrals in switchboxes on rough-in, and leave the rest for trim. If I know the schedule is gonna be very tight for trim, andI have time at rough, I'll pigtail everything at rough.
The NEC doesn't address this in any way, shape, or form. It's what the AHJ has adopted as a convention, and what the inspector wants in particular.
One consideration when splicing/pigtailing all the conductors for receptacles outlets on rough-in: if the sheetrockers miss a box, you may never notice it. If the hots and neutrals aren't spliced/pigtailed at rough-in, on trim out after making all the connections I can use a toner/tracer to find the buried box. This is more important on custom homes, where there are a lot of extra (non-standard) outlets and switches.
Cliff
I've always used crimp sleves on grounds myself and thus far my inspector has approved them. Now I'm hearing that many inspectors want the green wire nut with the hole in it used on grounds.
Other than making for an easier visual clue, I don't see any advantage to adding another wire nut to a box. They become a real PITA on multi gang switch boxes to me. Even over sizeing boxes is a not enough when you may have a couple of two or three 3-way switches and single poles in a four or five gang box.
In Ontario, Canada they just want to see that all the grounds are made, if you meant "ganged" not just a 1 peice 4 or 5 slot box then they also have to be grounded to each other with a wire, they won't accept the screws that link them as grounding ..
Dave,
Sure, wire nuts are listed for splicing conductors, and yea, the green ones with the hole in the end are designed and listed specifically for splicing equipment grounding conductors.
The Buchannan crimp sleeves are actually designed for general-purpose splicing; the whole system includes a special tool, the C-24 crimper, that uses 4 pins to crimp the sleeve and maintain it's overall shape. This is important because Buchannan makes snap-on insulator caps that go over the crimped sleeve. Ideal Industries still makes the C-24 tool, the 2006 small sleeves, the 2016 large ones, and the insulator caps for each.
It's a good system, makes for exceptionally stout connections. Great for splices subject to vibration. Good for wet environments--put a shot of silicone caulk in the cap before snapping it on.
It's absolutely the best system for splicing stranded wire. But it's no fun if you ever have to open a splice. And it does take a lot more time than spinning on a wirenut.
I like the crimp sleeves for splicing grounds because, like you say, the splice is really compact. Also, with the green wirenut, what do you do in a box with more than one device? Run the ground wire really long and loop it from device to device, or pigtail another wire off the splice? Either is not optimum, as far as I'm concerned.
Also, I like the crimp sleeve because it's not likely that some hack or sloppy homeowner is going to break the grounds splice if he is changing out a receptacle. That could happen with a wirenut.
Cliff
I like the crimp sleeves for splicing grounds because, like you say, the splice is really compact. Also, with the green wirenut, what do you do in a box with more than one device? Run the ground wire really long and loop it from device to device, or pigtail another wire off the splice? Either is not optimum, as far as I'm concerned.
That is almost exactly what my inspector said, but he is almost as old as I am. He is also a member of our local Electric Clearing House and a panel member for NEC code classes we have each month. Sometime the old ferts are easier to work with than the young start up inspectors.
Now, I bet if I ever bought that horse he has been trying to sell for three years, I think he would just mail me the green sticker as soon as he got my check <G>
I'm gonna hate it when he retires.
Maybe I'll beat him to it.
Hi CAP,
uses 4 pins to crimp the sleeve and maintain it's overall shape.
When I built my last house, I twisted together all grounds, crimped a copper sleeve on, cut off any unnecessary tails and then threw a torch and solder to it. Finished it off with green heat shrink tubing......inspector loved it.......said the same thing about my rafter framing.....looked like fine cabinet work.
Pedro the Mule - No stray sparks on my fur
Hmmm...lead alloy solder?
Why not silver solder?
But seriously, are you an avionics technician?
Cliff
Hi Cliff,
But seriously, are you an avionics technician?
Well, we're all influenced by our past somehow...I was in a special tech program in high school....I was impressed by the first day tour.....a tech was in the main building control center rewiring a communications panel.......10,000+ wires coming in....I swear you could see and trace every one of them at a glance.....most impressive thing I've ever seen.
Anyhow, later after training, I was at the top of my class thus I had the priviledge to work on the panel one day and never felt equal to the man in charge.....I had to really look up to his standard of production.
On off to college and got a degree in Electronics Engineering. With the number of house fires caused by defective wiring.....my anal self really wanted to leave it out but I'm a gadget/convenience junkie so I had to have electricity. As such I wanted everything to be as safe as I could afford. Every wire is a gauge heavier than required too.
Pedro the Mule - Never been struck by lightning while pulling a plow
I personally did the electrical on my Tahoe house. We only had to bond all the grounds for rough. I tried to get a bit ahead and got some boxes ready for receptacles. But I had to redo or at least thouroughly check everything because the sheetrockers cut so many of the wires in the boxes. I was glad to find the problems while I was in electrician mode. I spent lots of time before final troubleshooting the cut wire that I missed. The map we made of the boxes also came in handy to find the buried boxes. At least the sheetrock looked good and I was able to repair all the wiring in the end.
Is there a box cover that pushes the wires in, covers them, leaves a lip for the rotozip to find and has a nice point to poke through the drywall to find the box? If not is there any market for such a product? Or do most electricians use the styrofoam trick? If I don't make the cover I will certainly use the foam trick on my next house.
And I want the avionics wire labeler tool.
Eric
Eric,
Yes, there are two companies that I'm aware of that make covers to protect the wires during sheetrocking. One is plastic (for PVC boxes), the other steel (for steel boxes). They have no fancy lip, the 'rocker has to hit the cover and run off to the edge of the box, then route around.
I've heard that unless it's written into the contract that the covers have to stay in place, the rockers will just pull the covers off. The better approach is to write into the contract that any damage caused to the wires by the sheetrock crew will be repaired and backcharged (at $150/hr) against the payment for the 'rock installation. Same deal for buried boxes...
Cliff
Since I had only made up grounds and none of them were cut I was OK with the damage. It was a bit of a pain working with short wires in the box but they seemed to manage to leave me just enough good wire to work with. The buried boxes were quickly found (good map on the plans). They were bad only in a couple of rooms (end of the day - or start?). Irritating but not worth a fight.
Thanks for the info about the covers. Where can I buy them? The Tahoe supply house hadn't heard of them.
Eric
Here's one source:
http://www.crouse-hinds.com/crousehinds/newproducts/relatedinfo/SmartGuard_Metalguard_5_8.pdf
Another is http://www.thewireguard.com
And there's one other mfgr who makes a pvc version, I can't recall the company name.
Cliff
In my county they want to see the pigtails made up. For a duplex plug, the box would have three wires sticking out for instulation. He will randomly go up to a box and pull out all the wires and make sure it is pigtailed properly.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
I have done lots of rough inspections. What made me smile was to have all the connections made up that would be (grounds neutrals etc) and the wires that will attach to the devices pulled out so I can see they are long enough. It is also so I can look at the connections in the box. When I am gone you can wad them up to save them from the rockers.
On my recent addition, I was doing stucco on the inside walls of a cabana. I cut pieces of 3/4" styrofoam the size of the box and stuffed it in on top of my wires so my boxes wouldn't get packed with mud.
When I picked out the styrofoam the inside of the boxes were clean.
Heh...I like that idea about stuffing the boxes with styrofoam!
My sparky covers all his boxes with duct tape before rock... quick n ez.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
They want the boxes ready to receive devices. Outer sheathing gone and all connections made so sparky can just come in and put switches and receptacles in.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
"all connections made" is the question what should I do?
"All connections made" sounds like all wires + a pigtail nutted or crimped together.
Needing only a switch or outlet or whatever goes in the box to be connected to the pigtails.
Ask her what she wants?
Joe H
No offense but if you dont know, you should do nothing. Hire an electrician.
I meant the boxes should be ready to accept devices with nothing more than screwing them on. no more wire buts needed at finish, just devices.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
It's true I don't know what the inspector wants and I hate to ask her cause she's so crabby. If you look through the threads you'll see no common answer to my question but the simplest answer like yours is the way to go. I don't need an electrician yet, I've done it all from the service to the panel, finding answers in NEC and the net but finding what "connections made up" means is open to different interpretations.
I thought the responses were relatively similar.
If you cant talk to your inspector, go over her head. Her job is the same as yours, safe housing within her community. Shes not going to teach you how to wire a house but she should be willing to answer questions regarding her field of work.
Perhaps (to her) this question may seem like something that someone wiring house should know the answer to.
I'm not trying to break your balls, i'm just trying to relate things I have experienced in my work.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
So, been a couple weeks since the last post.
What is it she wants to see?
Joe H
So what did the inspector want to see? well i had my inspection, I had made up all the whites together, the blacks and grounds were pig tailed to accomodate divices, and she liked the color of the green ground nuts.
In my area, the want to see all grounds, well, grounded. Whether or not you pig-tail off them later. This is rough inspection, right? No crimping allowed here, or most places.
Don't know about your AHJ; here, I actually install the devices at the rough stage. My sparky comes in after that and we test each device and circuit, then he calls the Inspection and we're good to rock.
I hang my own rock and don't use 'Zips. If I sub out the rock (rare), I don't permit the hangers to use them, either. This pic from a remod I took over from someone else shows why....
View Image
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Ummm...you need to find yourself some new subs! It is so basic to do, i can't believe someone messed it up that bad!
That job was not done by my sub--either electrical or 'rock-hangers. It was done by the original builder's subs, and he hired the low bidder in every case. This was a spec-house that the builder-owner lived in until he sold it; I came in about four years after the place was built--after it was finally sold--and finished that basement for the new owners. That photo is only one of the many problems I found....
It is so basic to do, i can't believe someone messed it up that bad!
That sort of thing happens all the time since the advent of Roto-Zips, which is why I do not use them nor permit any gyprock subs to use them. I cut out all openings in the gyprock before it is hung and insist that any sub I hire to hang gyprock do the same. If they don't want to do it my way, they can work for someone else.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
That is why you need new subs...it should not happen. Has never happened to me yet. The electrician tucks the wire in deep and the drywallers are very good and it comes out perfect.
You aren't reading what I posted.
The electrical and gyprock subs worked for the original builder, not for me. I was hired to finish the unfinished basement four years later, after the house was sold.
What is so difficult to understand? They were not my subs.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
It is difficult because you make dumb statements like this:>>That sort of thing happens all the time since the advent of Roto-Zips, which is why I do not use them nor permit any gyprock subs to use them. I cut out all openings in the gyprock before it is hung and insist that any sub I hire to hang gyprock do the same. If they don't want to do it my way, they can work for someone else.<<It doesn't happen all the time it should never happen. You insist any sub you use can't use them! Ridiculous, hire better subs! And you should learn to use one too, they are faster and do a better job!
Well, you can take that attitude and place it where it won't need any sunscreen.
Go masticate yer supper or something.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Haha! Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.... I don't have no attitude, just stating the obvious!
Your inspector just wants to make sure that your installation meets code. Get to stapling if you haven't already done so.
'round 'ere.
Rough wire inspection = boxes ready to recieve their devices, meaning any / all splices are made; grounds are grounded to screws if metal boxes; pigtails attached if needed; cable run and stapled; breakers installed, connected and taped out at the panel; junction boxes completed except for their covers, but the cover needs to be present and swung open on one screw except for a wall box in a wall which will be sheetrocked; labels in place; all black and red wires capped. Generally prefer to have the conductors sticking out of the boxes - can roll back after rough inspection.
After sheetrock, all the electrician has to do is unroll the wires and connect the devices.
Jim