I have a question I’d like to ask.
Have any of you ever dealt with a constrution consultant hired by a homeowner?
I’m having a real hard time with a consultant hired by this homeowner on a 400 sq ft diningroom extension. At first, he was asking for references from my subs before we even KNEW if we were able to build. The reasons he cited were that there was no point going forward with a variance if the references couldn’t be provided.
Then he came up with the stipulation that we were NOT allowed to speak to the homeowner anymore, that any questions had to be summited to him IN WRITING and he would forward them to the homeowner for a response. The same criteria applied to any change work orders, payments etc. The turn around time for responses would be one week.
When we were asked for a start date, we generally stated usually about 4 weeks after we had a singned contract. As of now, we STILL don’t have a contract, but they expect us to start at the end of this week or hold us “in breach” (?). On top of that, the consultant wants us to pay for materials and labor until he feels that each stage of the work is done satisfactorily before he will release payments.
I feel that this guy has needlessly complicated this job, added real expense to it, and has caused a level of mistrust that didn’t exist before. I also feel that he’s getting caught behind on permits and variances and using us as the reason for the delay saying that we’re uncooperative. This consultant also owns a construction company and has experience with other companies as well.
My friend has done previous work for this homeowner without any complications and he’s the lead guy on this job. I’ve NEVER come across such a complicated mess for such a simple job. Is this the normal way these guys work?
Replies
Your last line said it all, "Is this the way these guys work?"
In my mind they DON'T "work"..... they take money....work to me is VALUE added, not merely money skimmed for consulting.
Give the owner a checklist,or hire the crews yourself and DO the WORK!
Nino-
No, that is not "how these guys work". As a consultant myself, I can tell you that the particular guy your dealing with must be coming from a commercial background, where things are run a bit tighter. I don't run residential jobs that way, but rather work to facilitate between the owner and the contractor- not take the owner out of the loop.
I'd say it's time for a sit-down with the owners regarding their militant consultant. If you can't come to terms on how the job is going to move forward, I'd look to get out of the contract. You can only imagine what a mess you'll be in if you keep going forward like this.
Bob
This guy does come from a commercial background.
Still in the few commercial jobs that I've done in shopping centers, the consultants I worked with were mostly concerned with what I was going to do and how much it cost as opposed as to how I was doing it and when I was getting paid.
It just seems to me that there is a conflict of interest on the part of the consultant on this particular job. He owns a construction company and has been involved in getting variances that at first, he couldn't get. The thing was, we were getting blamed for the delays in permits and variances even though we weren't involved in the process at all. I just feel that this consultant has another agenda here and I just wanted to check to see if it was just me or if this was normal.
Thanks
After re-reading your reply I hope you didn't take offense to my question in regards to, "is this how these guys work?"
I've had limited experience with consultants so I'm not really sure as to what is the protocol in dealing with one. The ones that I've dealt with before worked out very well and helped me as much as the person they were working for, so I am at kind of a loss.
That's not the way commercial managers work either. This guy you describe is simply an idiot who wants to play like the big boys but lacks the experience and class.
Time to let the owner know that you won't enter into a situation that is becoming confrontational before the first nail is driven.
Then walk away unless they change the menu.
Gabe
It's looking more and more that's what's going to happen. We've scheduled a meeting for next weekend with the homeowner and requested that the consultant not be told about it. The homeowner is sensing something's up. I hope it gets straightened out.
Nino-
No offense taken. I just hope I never come across like that guy did...lol.
Bob
Sounds like too many fingers in the pie to me.
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
hmmm, you say you don't have a contract yet...does it mean YOU have not signed, or you have signed and sent, and it is in HO's hands to be signed?
If you haven't signed a contract yet, RUN! It ain't worth it. (see thread I started, Anal Rententive Control Freak)
I'm sure glad I ran.
We have signed and sent, they haven't signed yet.
The homeowner seems like a really nice guy and my friend has never had a problem before doing work for him. It just seems that all of a sudden, he's decided that this consultant has his best interests at heart and has decided to use him.
Had experience recently with a "consultant"/ "project manager" , total knuckle head.
Asked the homeowner if this was the way to go, creating a third party in this business is more often than not asking for trouble , homeowner was cool to speak directly to and asked if we would deal directly as the consultant was confusing everybody (said we would not do any work until this was resolved).....consultant got the bullet and no probs with anything after that.
The term nescessary evil comes to mind....
That's not the way I practice. First off, the contractors doing residential and remodeling work won't stand for it. Shouldn't have to, either IMHO. If you are getting (or giving) a trade contract for work less than one month, going through the whole G702 "application" process is, in a word, dumb.
Ok, in commercial work (especially big projects), that's the form, and everybody is used to it. Just the way it is (good reason to be a small fish in a small pond). Making a small contractor wait for G702 "clearance" can be close to extortion in my book, as they have to suffer all of the costs in providing the work and materials out of their own pocket. Then they get paid at the consultant's schedule, and with a retention that they are due, but have to wait a month to receive. (Nope, never been there, not me--anyone want 1/12 a house slab, only been burned down once, cheap . . . ?)
I've always tried to help HOs after they get in over their heads. Or, being an HO & GC is a bit "too much." Mostly, I get involved at the design stage, and just 'stay the course." Golden rule still works, treat people the way you want to be treated. Treat all parties fairly, and "we" all profit. As a previous post stated, it's about adding quality.
I'd suggest you check the actual wording of the contract. If it says that it's binding when you sign it (which I would find highly unusual), it might be binding. Much more likely it says something to the effect of "upon mutual execution by the parties". If that's the case, in my experience (and I'm not an attorney. Where's Bob Walker?) it's not a contract until it's signed, dated, and you have a copy.
It doesn't matter how fast you get there, it just matters that you go in the right direction.
Construction consultants are poison on a job. My most resent run in with one was 9 months ago. We bid out a 8,700 sq ft house for a industrial HVAC contractor. We were one of 3 contractors bidding and was recommended by a former client. We were not the low bidder, but close and got the job based on the work we had done for the former client that had recommended us.
After romancing this job for 5 months I went to the final meeting with the owners and the architect to sign the contract. At the meeting the owner introduces another fellow who he referred to as "another construction guy". As I'm reviewing the contract the "other construction guy" started giving me the stump the stars 20 questions routine. I asked the owner what the heck was up with this guy, and the owner told me the guy was going to be the "construction consultant" on the job. Been there, seen that, it ain't going to happen.
I told the owner he had chosen us base upon personal recommendations, reviewing several of our past projects, both larger and smaller than his. I said we had over 25 years of experience in custom homes and we were fully competent to build this project ourselves. Further more I said, I've had to bid the project, schedule the project, I will be the one responsible for shepherding the project through construction and I will be the one who will have to guarantee the work when it's complete. I do not believe I would be willing to have our work 2nd guessed and criticized by someone who had no financial stake in the projects outcome and who's competence I have no idea. I did not take the job, and it hurt.
After six months the contractor who did take the job, with the consultant attached lost the carpentry contractor and in 7 months quit himself. The house set for over a month. The owner came back to me just last week and said he would agree to my terms if I would just get the project started again. I told him to put a light coat of grease on it and shove it where the sun don't shine.
If an owner doesn't have enough confidence in you to build his project you certainly don't need him or the job.
OK, something came up, we were told by the homeowner tonight that we won't be needed anymore!!!
Something I suspected was gonna happen, happened! The consultant, knowing what our bid was and knowing that the homeowner was willing to pay it, delayed the project enough to slide his subs under our price for the work while still charging the homeowner what our contract price was!
It seems that during all this time he was using these delay tactics and making unreasonable requests in order to give his subs time to be ready for the project. He sold the homeowner by telling him that we were unreasonable asking to start 4 weeks after getting a signed contract returned and that he could get somebody to start this weekend. So, I got the phone call saying "bye, bye".
I'm not naive enough to believe that this doesn't happen, but I can't help but think that this is an unethical practice. I feel very frustrated and powerless to do anything about it (other than..........OK, we'll forget THAT!).
I'd like to thank those that responded and gave their imput. Your answers, experiences, and support have given me a little comfort to know that at least my instincts were correct in regards to this situation. Still, losing this job this way without a chance to fight back just doesn't sit well with me at the moment.
Edited 3/27/2003 2:24:54 AM ET by nino
Sorry to hear that it worked out that way Nino. I haven't had the "pleasure" of working with a construction consultant yet. You sound like you're taking pretty well though. Man, I would be #!$@#! Just another reason to listen to those gut instincts. Better luck with the next client. Maybe you could advertise yourself as Build/Design/Consult. In other words...."We don't need no stinkin' consultants"(apologies to all honest consultants, of course). Take care.
Jay
P.S. to all consultants....yes I realize most of you are honest, hard working individuals, it's just scumbags like this that make you wary.
Like I had said earlier, my experience with consultants was limited. I had worked with a consultant when I remodeled two co-op apartments and when I remodeled a pizzeria in a shopping center that was owned by a corporation and run by a management company. In both those cases, the consultant helped me as much as his clients in getting the work done right, fast, and under budget. I thought it's always this way.
If it's any comfort there is a good chance that the whole project will fall apart. Consultants like this cut things close and play both sides against the middle.
This can go so far as having them make endless undocumented or partially documented, changes, suggestions and complaints. Anything to confuse the job and create a bone of contention. All the better to contest completion or standards. This then becomes the basis for holding up payments or release of liens. All of this is often just another bargaining chip in an attempt to negotiate down prices or get extras. Often the gains disappear into the middle man's pocket.
This sort of behavior inspires zero loyalty from contractors, or anyone else, unlucky enough to make their acquaintance. This means the contractors are less likely to keep schedules and do their best work. More and more effort goes into creating, or fighting off, these machinations and less goes into the job. When the contractor get tired of the games or realize they are going to loose money on the job due to this twisting they find ways to bail out.
Worse case. At this point the lawyers descend in a dark fog. Money goes into their pockets and the job stands, sometimes for months, uncompleted as a legal cross fire destroys what remains. I have seen a case where $40,000 was spent on an addition and, in the end, next to nothing was accomplished. During this time the house was unlivable and what little work that was done was largely destroyed by the elements when temporary barriers failed in series of summer storms. The house sat idle for over six months.
Count your blessings. Don't look back. You may have dodged a very nasty bullet.
nino: it hurts now.. but you're gonna be so thankful you ain't bustin your hump on that job for two unethical as*holes.. the owner and the "consultant"..
no way you were ever gonna make a dime or even meet expenses.. watch ..
those two deserve each other and the project will not come to a good endMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sounds like this consultant was nothing more then a chicken #### contractor out to steal your job.
The GC job is homeowner liason, and if a homeowner needs a "consultant" to look over the job then they have no business hiring a GC.
A consultant should never be in the middle of the construction or anything. A Consultant should act as a failsafe and advise to the homeowner. More or less an onsite peer review.
Your first sign of him being a total fake was his insistence that you never talk with the homeowner.
If it doesnt feel right it never is, trust your gut. Sounds like that so called consultant was nothing more then a crook. SOunds like those homeowners are going to get screwed big time.
. " SOunds like those homeowners are going to get screwed big time."
They are only getting what they deserve. Thank your lucky stars. It could have been you.
While I don't agree with the consultant's methods, I can see a little why a homeowner would hire one.
We're portrayed as thieves and as unethical, that we take deposits and walk away, that we do shoddy work for way too much money everywhere you look on the news, on websites, etc. I try as hard as possible to keep homeowners calm and informed on my jobs. I'm honest with information and I explain all my costs and charges. I explain my philosophy about the work and that it's as important to me for the job to be a success as it is to the homeowner. In most cases, it helps me. In this case, he must've thought it was part of the "scam".
Still, I don't wish for the job to work out bad for the guy. As it is, it's going to cost him a FORTUNE, more than he needed to spend, just to get it done. That should be lesson enough.
Nino, talk about mixed blessings. It was a crappy situation, so be glad you're out of it. But the scum stole food from your family's table. Are you in a state with licensing? If so, is it possible there is some recourse in entering a complaint? What he did (assumuing your side of the story to be fully accurate, no offense) is to me the epitome of unethical. Would make me want to seek him out in a dark alley.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
I'm in NY and I guess that I could make a complaint against him. The realities are that it's hard to prove intent, like you said "assuming" my side of the story is correct. In many ways his actions are a part of human nature. you can only hope that things "even out" somewhere down the road.
Sorry Nino; that sucks big time.
I hope you got a deposit from them or will learn to get one from EVERYONE in the future!!
Please tell me where in NY you are and who this wonderful "consultant" is so I can make sure I steer clear of him.
Best of luck bro.
The first sentece of my post says it all. Sorry you learned the hard way, but believe me you are better off in the long run. But it still hurts.
Nino,
I've worked on some fairly large projects with consultants before. Be glad you to get away from him. You would be better off to sit at home for a while than suffer that clown.
Truth be told most of these so-called consultants know very little about the trades. Out of about twenty i've only run into two or three who had actual experience on the job. The rest are just managers, or would like to think of themselves as managers anyway.
I have yet to see one of these tough guy Consultants every actaully finish a job. I can show more than a few that have: ended up in court, are still unfinished awaiting a court date, or the consultant was fired so the job could get finished.
That being said, not all consultants are bad. The few i've come across who were good were very good. They make a job run well and eliminate a lot of the hassels. They were called general contractors. They all had a list of subs they used and trusted. They ran a tight ship and helped you make money because that made them money. This guy is just trying to make some money off of your hard work. Avoid this type of clown at all costs
Robert
If I may jump in, in defense of myself and other consultants......
The guy you're discussing gives us a bad name, just like the uninsured, hack contractors give contractors in general a bad name. But consider what you can expect from a "good" consultant:
1. Would you rather have to nag your client for the selections you've been waiting for since January, or have someone else do the naggin for you?
2. Would you prefer to try to explain the concealed conditions you encounter (and need to charge extra for) to someone who has experience with such things, or with a client who's trying to save pennies for a new hot tub?
3. Better to have your invoices approved by someone who understands the numbers, or have to sit down with the client for an hour, and walk through every stinkin' figure over, and over, and over....
4. When the client makes a huge design change, and can't comprehend why your schedule is impacted, and why it's going to cost an extra $10,000, wouldn't it be nice to have someone there to help the client understand that you aren't screwing them?
I can go on forever, but I'll stop there....lol. I'll readily admit that there are bad consultants, just like there are bad contractors. But as someone who's done $2,000 repair jobs, $10 million renovations, and everything in between, I'd just like to see that we don't all get lumped together.
Bob
I am primarily a Remodelor. I have never worked under a consultant. I have performed as a consuiltant before.
I see this shyster as a crooked contractor, trying to perform as a job manager and calling himself a consultant. I see the three positions as being all different.
In custom residential construction and remodeling, a lot of homeowners want to be the general contractor themselves. Some to "save money", others to "Get what we want" or control the job. Most of these do not have the skills needed to so act and they need a consultant or project manager to help them along.
My limited activity as a consultant follows this description, I consult the homeowner and educate them by providing the information they need to make their decisions and manage their own job. I answer their questions about materials, the process, the design and implementation, the oiptions and the impact those choices have on costs and schedule. I research information and occasionally, I make contact with a subcontractor on their behalf to find answers or to facilitate communications.
Homewowners and contractors speak two different languages too often. I can speak both fairly fluently and can make the translations needed to avoid misunderstandings and subsequent bnad feelings or interrupted payments.
One thing I never do as a consultant is exercise any authority. That is a job for the owner or a project manager who has been given the responsibility for the whole job.
In my book, if this guy is calling himself a consultant, he is a fraud.
Jobn responmsibilities are important to defione from the beginning. If I, as a contractor, were told that Mr X would be there as a "consultant, I would offer my definition of consultant and wait for reaction from both. If the "consultant was being brought in with authority to act as project manager rather than just to advise and communicate, I would politely state that his efforts duplicated what I was already doing and offer to be the one to leave, since redundancy was not needed..
Excellence is its own reward!
piffin, what you just wrote, is right on. Now, if and it's a big if, other trades people could also speak those two languages , with patience, humor and honesty, Wow what a concept. Homeowner's would think they struck a gold mine, with a builder/ trades person, who can communicate with them in their own language, then transform the communication , to a Fine finished product, with everybody happy. Be safe out there, Jim J.
Isn't that what the architect the client hired suppose to do for his money? There's the owner, the architect, and the builder, absolutely no need for anyone else getting involved and mudding the water. Particularly no one with out a financial stake in the project.
If the client doesn't have enough confidence in you to do the job you either don't need the client or you're in over your head.
I'm guessing that there is no architect. Traditionally, an architect is the owner's representative on the job site, and it supposed to be the "go between" for the client and GC (that does not include "no contact not through me" though). That's why too many banks insist on the AIA forms for construction draws--old habit.
Where HOs need some sort of help is when they discover that the bank will issue draws only following AIA 700x forms. These will require similar forms from each of the trades. Now, the HO as GC gets an expensive, and messy education in how to be a GC, and why they get paid to provide services. About the only time you can save money is when it's GC as HO--and that only because the GC does not have to pay himself a profit for his work (disregarding the whole working here makes "me" no money argument).
There seem to be unethical, corrupt, crooked, what have you, people in every trade and profession. Heard this once: "A bad doctor is a quack, a bum lawyer is a shyster; what do you call a bad contractor? Developer." There's no task so easy, or so cheap, as one we only think we know how to do. Bad people are a burden to us all. What to do about it? My only answer is to do the best job I can.
Ok, that occasionally means winding up like Nino, skunked out of work. Better to let the skunks have it. Sometimes it is worth siccing the law or lawyers on these clowns--but not if it is taking food out of your family's mouths. My grandfather used to say "A crooked butcher weighs everything with the same scale." That "consultant" will wind up on the wrong side of somebody, and likely sooner rather than later. (Better, though if someone else's crew has the accident, or the OSHA violation, or a job shut down because the consultant met the wrong person in an alley . . . )
We insist that our owners have the architect inspect the project on at least 3 occasions during construction as a check and balance. This is in addition to the architect being available to interpret his design.
Payouts are always made through the title company directly to the sub. We by requirement submit the Sworn Contractors Statement. As required by the lender and the title company, the owner and many times the bank sign off prior to each payout.
Even without the architects participation, I'm not sure why we would need anyone else involved.
Sounds like good practice to me.
My intention was to address where the project had no architect. A smaller project, like a remodel or addition, where it was bigger than a home improvement loan, was what I was thinking of. Where only an engineer's stamp was needed for the permit drawings (the designer is the HO, or the remo contractor, when design intent needs to be divined). The work of documenting the draws, and collecting the liens, and paying the retainages still has to be done, but the "traditional" arbiter, the architect, is not present. The work still has to be done, and in a timely manner. As was said in a different post, that's a tough education in general contracting for the average HO. So, there is some market for the work. If there is an architect, or a willing GC, then a consultant is just one more "cost" to the owner--and hardly seems worth it.
At the other end of the spectrum is another niche--the "developer." This is where the owner is a financial type, usually putting up "cookie cutter" multifamilies. He doesn't "speak construction" but does "speak bank." There needs to be someone in between that owner and the subs doing the work.
Am I missing something?
I thought that it was a general practice to get all the people involved on a project (architect, homeowner, builder, any major subs, etc.) together so as to go over the details and more importantly, how the final product is supposed to "feel" before you actually start construction. I also try to include the building inspector and the building department engineer before I begin to get a feel of what they want to see on this project and what objections they might have with it or any particular details. I've found that this cuts down on misunderstandings and lets the project go forward much smoother.
One of the reasons I was taken aback by this consultant was that he wanted a separation of the people involved and wanted that we all worked through him. I couldn't see how a project can go forward when the homeowner is STILL the final authority yet, all requests and explainations have to go through a third party. This would've also included subs that weren't working for me.
<shrug>
Agreed, there is absolutely no job logic to having another step in the process, unless you are attempting to justify an addition cost, let me rephrase that , additional un-necessary cost to the project. This added step weakens not strengthens communication between the decision makers, and as mentioned additional cost to the owner.
Although, I would be willing to explain this to an owner, I still would not work with a consultant on the job even if the owner was willing to absorb the extra cost. Either we are or we are not competent to build the project and I will not accept critisim from someone who does not have a financial stake in its outcome.
Also a back bitting consultant can cost you significant unnecessary expense and damage to your credibility and reputation. No thanks.
Edited 4/3/2003 8:19:15 AM ET by Russ
I have to side entirely, and without reserve with Russ. I had a very brief encounter with a Homeowner's Rep once, on the phone. A woman had called me about my working on a major renovation with a major budget on a recommendation from one of my satisfied customers. I was looking forward to our meeting and the likelihood of a lot of very high end cabinets paneling etc.
Before our meeting, I get a call from some joker who says he's the homeowner rep and he needs this and that and the other. I immediately stopped him and asked what his job was. He restated that he was the homeowner rep. I told him that meant nothing to me, what exactly do you do? Then,when I asked what HIS qualifications were he got uppity. So I simply told him that I would be dealing directly with the homeowner thank you , goodbye.
I later got a call back from the homeowner saying that everything had to go through him. So I told her very nicely that I did not work that way. It cost me a total of no more than 15 minutes on the phone.
I work directly for whomever pays my check, period. I had one experience with a "Construction Manager" in 1995 who was actually a "Gentleman GC" or paperwork manufacturer. My invoices on that job went from me, to the "Construction Manager", to the Architect, to the homeowner, to the homeowner's father, to the homeowner's father's partime accountant, to the US Mail System, to me. Change orders the same way. Only when I pulled my 8 man trim crew off the job and started another one- did the buck flow start again. Since I had wisely refused to sign the standard AIA contract, and hired my own lawyer to write the only contract I would sign (and which they had eventually signed) they could not sue me and win. Their house sat idle for 3 1/2 weeks. It was the most stressful job I ever did.
And those jerks called me back a couple months later to bid another job! I just laughed. But it was just another day of business as usual for the "Construction Managers".
Architects are bad enough (with the changes), Managers and consultants are purely counter-productive. One GC is enough on any job.All the consulting should be done before the job starts - then it's up to the GC from there.
Clampman
I'm kinda surprised at all this feedback I really didn't expect it!
You guys have shown me that my initial feelings about this were correct and that I wasn't imagining it.
Still, I don't want to give the impression that even in my limited experience with consultants it's all been bad. It was this limited contact that made me ask the question about this particular guy to begin with.
Point taken. But where are the good consultanats. I'm still waiting to meet one in this area. But i'm learning that the NJ and eastern PA area is pretty screwed up compared to the rest of the country
Robert-
Well, considering I'm in central NJ, it's probably just a matter of time before we cross paths...lol. I will agree that there are a lot of wannabe's around here. I just ran across one who's a joke, and he's the owner's rep for a $30 million job!!! Scary.....
Bob