I’ve been shamed into investigating the construction master calculator. I have version iv.
There’s a lot that I don’t like, but there’s also some stuff that I might like….if I could make it work…..I’m having trouble getting the irregular roof jacks. I might be doing something wrong, or the calc is malfunctioning. Im following the directions in the user’s guide that starts on page 48 and 49. When I try to get the irrgular jacks, I get the regular jacks only.
What’s the trick?
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information…don’t listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Replies
Blue,
I think that you need to keep hitting the jack button. I don't have the IV, but on the Pro Trig Plus III, you just keep hitting the jack button. It'll go through the jacks and then the cheek angles and then it'll start the Ir jacks. I hope this helps. I love this calculator.
I also have the new Pro desk model and I'm playing around with the functions that tell you the miter and bevel for crown. I'm trying to get it to tell me the compound angles for birdblocks square to the tail. I can do it without the Construction Master, but I'd like to use this to check my math.
Tim, your suggestion worked...somewhat...
It did cycle through and finally give the lengths of the Irregular jacks. But it didn't do it like the instructions said it would....which reaffirms my faith that the foreigh exporters are intentionally trying to mess with our minds.
Now I need to know how to find the cheek cuts. That might be in the following pages...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Just a bit of trivial info. If you press the % twice in a row the whole display lights up. I think they programed that in there for quality control.
Blue,
The problem with that calculator is it's out dated just like computers and you will keep getting annoyed with it. I don't have one but the people who do have them take way to many steps to get to the answer and right off the bat that's not for you or me. Do yourself a favor if you want to start to use one get the Pro Trig Plus III as Tim said it's well worth it.
Like I said in another thread to you once you start playing with this thing you will be amazed how fast you can figure something out.Since you've been around a long time framing you will know what to punch into this calculator. Starting an 18 year old kid with one is not going to help him.
They're cheep now when I bought it is was 100.00 now It's 50.00 with the rebate http://www.ccalc.com/TrigPlusIII.html
Joe Carola
Edited 12/24/2004 7:31 am ET by Framer
Blue,
Tell me if your sold after these two pictures....;-)
Joe,
I've got the black and grey case. It looks ok with my red faded Diamondback bags and my bright orange fleece :-)
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&guid=2B6DBED5-0D5D-47E2-8721-3E5A121A902F&frames=no
I can't see the Calc but that pretty orange fleece is nice......;-)I have the ugly yellow and grey case for mine. I want the Blue and tan one now.I shouldn't make fun of it because it's a good case.I;'ve dropped it a few times and with that hard rubber it saved my calculator. I once drove to the lumber yard and when I got out of my truck I saw the calc sitting on top of my tool box. I put it there before I got into my truck and it never fell off the whole ride to the lumber yard.You think this story might convince Blue to get one????????????Joe Carola
Edited 12/24/2004 9:46 am ET by Framer
i don't know joe, he's a tough sell..
but i just ordered mine.. with the blue & tan case
so now i'll have the CMIV AND the CMIV+trig..
merry christmas to me... ho, ho, hoMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So....the CMIV doesn't do it all eh?
Ho ho ho..I told you so!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
matter of fact... it does far more that i use it for...
my problem is that i can frame anything.. but i get to it by the back door.. unlike you and joe, and tim and brian ... and a few others..
if i'm working 200 days.. i'll be lucky if two of them involve cutting a roof.. so , it takes me a hell of a lot longer to do it than you guys... but i can still get it done faster than if i tried to line up a framer to do it..
probably some more of the inefficiencies that drive you crazy about remodeling..
i look at it like the medical profession.... i'm a good GP.. but if you want major surgery, we'll get a surgeon...
and yet , the average surgeon would be lost in a Family Practise...
look at this way, blue... we can learn the new CMIV +trig ............ together....
heh, heh, heh
say hello to mr & mrs snort for me...
i expect to see both of you in toledoMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Whats going on in Toledo?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
you're going on in toledo...
you're invited to JoyceFest at Calvin's
our North Carolinians started the trek back this morning.. keep your eyes peeled Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So, next time you're buzzin' down I 40 leeme know, I'll meet you up at Woodworker's Supply...but only for coffee, of course<G>Blue, you still thinking of heading ovr this way? I dropped you an email with particulars...we can go by and hoot at crew of wormie lovers I know...LOL Don't worry, we can fix that later!
winter route ... could be..
summer route thru the mountains and down 81 to CharlotteMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
better be sure not to miss 77 off 81 iffin yer goin the the Queen City..other wise ya wind up in Bristol Tenn. Not that I'd have first hand exp. or anything like that {G}
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Oh...okay Mike...when is this Joyce fest scheduled?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Don't worry about JoyceFest...I tried to push all those suggestions you gave me on my main builder, dang, I'm fired again!...but the thing is, since I'm unemployed, I'll be able to swing by and pick you up for the 'fest<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Let's see, Mike, you have and use the calculator, but only frame a roof very occasionally.
If you don't mind, would you enumerate the other uses of your calc?
estimating.... stair layout.. cabinet layout.....roof shingle layout...
billing quantities.... take-offs...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thats a great story Joe.
My old fashioned framing square rode all the way home on top of my tool box. We were going over 80mph and I can layout every rafter that your trig calc can do with it...and it never needs batteries!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
"We were going over 80mph and I can layout every rafter that your trig calc can do with it...and it never needs batteries!"I'm sure you can but not as fast as I can layout Irregular Pitched Roofs with my calc and I know you want to do it as fast as you can........right?Once you get this thing you wont stop playing with it especially with Irregular Pitched Roofs.Joe Carola
Framer,
I hope so !!
I've got a pic that you might think is funny. The neighbors asked us to move the honey bucket so it didn't look like it was in their yard. This is where we stored it for the weekend :-)
We worked until it got dark tonight, so that is why the picture is a little dark. :-) We thought it was pretty funny.
Curse you guys..Now I got to go and upgrade. I have the CMIV gggrrrrrr a pox on all of you...:>)
Now that's what I call convenient...get the place buttoned up, & it's indoor plumbing...LMAO Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Neghbor lady came over to thank us for moving the HoneyBucket and said their guests thought it was pretty funny.
I'm sold...I need that Blue case!
I don't know what I'm going to do with the trig calc though....that would be a differernt phase in my life...which is asking a bit much.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Do you know the principles of trig. If not then I wouldn't recommend the trig 3.
The cm4 will do most of what you need. For normal roofs the only advantage of getting the pro or the trig3 is the bevel angles. I used the 4 for about 3 years and then switched to the pro. Didn't make a whole lot of differance. With experience you will be able to make the 4 do whatever you want.
If you didn't already have one, I would say to get the pro, but if you already spent the money, I'd stay with the 4.
I recently switched to the pc program easy rafters. I doesn't have the error in it that the cm's do on the jacks. I still use the cm for commons and hips and valleys, but I jsut bring the spans home the night before I will be cutting and calculate them at home.
Kyle,The key thing with Blue or myself is getting to the answer or building something as quick as you can. The CM IV takes to much time to use. I have the CM PRO and Trig. When he gets the Trig it will help him understand or learn Trig if he chooses.Easy rafters is fine but you have tio go home to use it. If the job time calls for you to figure the roof right there at that moment Easy Rafters can't help your Cm can if you know how to use it.Joe Carola
get the up graded version..
it got a ton of trig built into it...
make up for all the sleeping you did in 4th grade...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Blue,
Maybe you’re just pressing the wrong buttons. To say that the CM4 is “outdated†is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. To find the jacks for an irregular roof on a CM4 may require 1 or two entries more (maybe) then the trig model and I don’t know that for sure since I don’t have one.
A simple example using an 8-10 irregular roof with an 8 inch main rise and a 12’ run gives these results.
Press [on/c] [on/c]
Enter [8] [Inch] [Pitch]
Enter [12] [Feet] [Run]
Enter [10] [Inch] [Conv] [Hip/V]
Press [Hip/V] returns 17’ 3-29/32â€" This is the hip length.
Finding the jack lengths.
Irregular side jacks
Enter [16][Inch][Conv][Irr/Jack] This is the on center spacing for each jack.
Press [Jack] Displays [IJ 1 11’ 1-9/32â€]
Press [Jack] Displays [IJ 2 9’ 8-5/8â€]
Press [Jack] Displays [IJ 3 8’ 3-31/32â€]
Press [Jack] Displays [IJ 4 6’ 11-5/16â€]
Press [Jack] Displays [IJ 5 5’ 6-21/32â€]
Keep pressing until the display reads 0-0.
Regular jack side.
Enter [16][Inch] [Jack] This is the on center spacing for each jack.
Press [Jack] Displays [JK 1 12’ 5-1/32â€]
Press [Jack] Displays [JK 2 10’ 5â€]
Press [Jack] Displays [JK 3 8’ 4-31/32â€]
Press [Jack] Displays [JK 4 6’ 4-29/32â€]
Press [Jack] Displays [JK 5 4’ 4-7/8â€]
Keep pressing until the display reads 0-0
Flash, I got that far....I figured out that I had to sycle all the way through the regular jacks, then the irregular jacks appeared.
I'm ready for the next lesson...I just haven't opened the tiny book with the little print that I can barely read.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Okay fellow CM iv whizzes..
How do I calculate a layon irregular roof with the CM?
And where is the ridge length button for the layon?
How do I calculate the ply cut for a irregular roof piece?
Shall I post an example?
I must say, the instruction booklet is pretty lame.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
I haven't gotten it to give me the answers to your question without using formulas. I don't believe that the CM will give you ridge lengths or calculate the layons. If you get your first rafter on a layon, then you can step down with the CM. Personally I think it's just faster to measure the first rafter in and then the sawyer can figure out from there while the guys do layout, or start nailing or something.
I can figure out irregular ply patterns using trig formulars that I ripped off Joe Fusco and Joe Carola, but I haven't figured out how to make the CM do it for me.
That's what i thought Tim.
The CMIV is a nice tool to quickly give you the irregulars, but I think it's probably better to steer a rookie down the geometry path.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
so blue, how was NC ?
did you hook up with snort ?...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for asking Mike,
I did indeed visit with Bucksnortbilly and was surprised to find out that he is a "normal" guy. I had envisioned a deepsouth backwoods kinda guy...with a name like bucksnort.
"Bucksnortbilly" is a very interesting trim carpenter living in a very beatiful wooded setting, in a very unique/beautiful home that he built for himself and his family. As you could imagine, the trimwork (both interior and exterior) was exemplary. He is also a fine furniture builder and I was impressed with his creations. I didn't see any clipped head fastener's holding it together, so I know I couldn't duplicate them.
BB also has a very nice engaging personality and he graciously took time out of his life to take me on a tour of the Chapel Hill area in North Carolina. We visited several homes that he was/is/will be working on and I found it to be quite interesting.
It's nice to be able to visit with other skilled tradespeople in different regions. I found out that North Carolina is very similar to Michigan but I didn't see enough big subdivisions to sustain a business that I prefer to run.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Man, the things some guys will say for a tuna fish sammich<G>...and don't let this guy fool ya folks, even Mrs 'Snort thought he was cute!Nice, albeit, hurried visit.I did get the woodstove in time for New Year's eve. House stills smells like smoke,LOL...and after I dumped the rest of the dog food out of that old PC sidewinder, found out I can't get the arbor nut off...good thing it's got a carbide blade, ha, ha, ha!and hey, you're more than welcome anytime<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
BB, I was going to be nice and "forget" that saw episode....but, since you mentioned it first, I'll expand on it.
We were finishing up a tour of a very weird house, when Bucksnort Billy unscrews a secret door and shows me his everyday saw.....it was a beautiful old original Porter Cable 315. Now, you youngun's might as well stop reading because you won't be able to appreciate how special an original PorterCable 315 is. It truly is the grandaddy of the modern power saw.
Anyways, for some reason, Bucksnort feels very guilty and sheepishly hands me his saw, which I immediately swoon over. Then, in a moment of sheer horror, I tip it slightly to check out the underside and a torrent of rodent feed tumbles out. I'm talking about a bowl full of nuts. These nuts continue to pour out, shake out, rattle out and ole Bucksnort is so embarrased that he's trying to run into the next room..but I'm not letting him. If he's going to tarnish this american icon of a saw, then I'm going to at least make him stand there till the entire thing is emptied.
So, anyways, I take it over to the bench to see how the bearings sound, which I know will be exquisite and I pull the trigger. Immediately the smooth powerful motor ramps up and MORE NUTS FLY OUT! The freakin' rodents have been using this carpenter's dream for a nest for at least a month of Sunday's!
Bucksnort sheepishly tells me that he's been using a cheap Oriental saw instead of this American wrecking machine! I fainted dead on the spot!
After I awoke, Bucksnort promised to put the beast back into top shape...and so I must tell you that it is my duty to help him, even though he should be jailed for his indescretion!
Bucksnort, if you don't mind the weight, that saw will be the last one you'll ever buy. You probably should inspect the brushes. They're very easy to remove...just get a big wide screwdriver. Also, get some light grease (the tool store will have some) and inject it into the grease cup. If the bearings ever start to whine, immediately stop and get them replaced.
The one item that you probably will need to replace is the nut. I noticed that it was already shimmed with a paper washer or something. Those nuts were notorious for wearing out and the blade would begin to slip when under load. You can try pounding them and rebending them, but I never had much luck...they are very hard spring steel. I did however, have better luck by shimming the nut retainer with two layers of 80 grit sandpaper. The grit gripped the blade and you could use a saw with a bad nut for a year or so, roughing every day.
Getting that nut off is an artform in itself. If memory serves me correctly, they shipped a thin wrench that slips behind the blade to grip the arbor. Of course, we never had or used one....we always used the bind and slam method. The bind and slam method is this: lean on the saw, binding the blade into your benchtop. Put a wrench on the nut and slam the wrench handle with your hammer. A very sharp blow will loosen the nut without spinning the arbor. To this day, I often use this same technique on saws, even though there is often some other method of locking the arbor. Habits die hard.
You're gonna love that saw, especially since the extended table is missing. I'm not sure if it ever existed, but in any event, the saw is much more versatile without it. You can now sell your sawzall....
Did you ever get the guard to retract?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
You two suck. I suppose you've each discovered that you have a closet full of 315's sitting around. And have devised this plan to lure everyone into lusting after them. And now your cornering the ebay market. I know this cause I just checked ebay and they're up to like eighty bucks, usualy their much cheaper.
P.S. did you shake him down for Bluegrass tools?Who Dares Wins.
Actually Gunner, I mentioned the 315 by mistake. The 315 was the original rockwell sidewinder. The saw that Bucksnort had was a Porter Cable 528. The original portercable was a 508 but it had an awful banana style guard. The 528 was an upgraded guard version of the 508.
The saw is easily 35 yrs old and runs like new.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1461&item=6142448952&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Fn, if you buy that saw, you'll never need another. They're just too heavy for me.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Slam & jam, I'll try that tomorrow...or should I wait for a pro wrestler to drop by<G>...blade works, though. LOL Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Blue,
We have a guy working for us that has zero framing experience, but is a good learner and has worked (grew up in Idaho in farming country) hard. He is a cool guy, but when it comes to roofs or framing in general, I'm not going to give him a calculator for awhile. To me, the calculator is only as good as the operator's understanding of the geometry and theory.
I hope you had a good weekend. I'm looking forward to you posting more pics and doing some more boogerin' heheheeh
Tim, Why wouldn't you lead the new guy down the path that teaches him about the geometry of roofs?
I suppose you could force him to do everything longhand, like I was taught, but the idea of deriving square roots by hand seems a little outdated in this new age of calculators.
Or maybe, you think that you are overloading your new guy?
When Frank started with me, he already possessed all the geometric skills that he'd ever need for most residential roofs. He was able to do the math as quick as I on the first roof he ever laid eyes on. This stuff isn't rocket science...it's basic math and geometry. If the new guy doesn't understand a the pythagorean theory on his first day, then he should have homework...and if he doesn't understand it on his second day, then he'll probably never be a good roof framer.
The most important lesson that I got out of my formal carpentry apprentice training was the ability to mathematically figure an irregular roof. They should have offered that class first to those that were interested.
blue
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
I think I gave the wrong impression. What I have noticed with other guys that I've worked with, is that they don't want to do any homework or read any books on a subject or articles for that matter. With this new guy, Matt, I want him to understand the terminology first. He is so new that he is still learning what the names of the parts are; ridges, hips/valleys, jacks, cheek cuts, ridge (plumb) cuts, level (seat cuts), etc. Once he has the language down, then I'll start teaching him the basics. What good is the calculator if he doesn't know what the hip/val button means or the jack key?
I won't make him do it long hand. That is just a slow way to do things nowadays in my opinion. If he wants to learn to step rafters off with a square, then he can do that on his time. We just don't have the time or money to do that on our site. After work, we can do that if he wants.
Oh yeah I forgot he must master the speed square just kidding. hahahahahahahahah