Replies

1. 
   Pro-Dek | Feb 06, 2001 07:50am | #1

   *
   Wow John, I can't say I've ever seen tolerances of thousanth of an inch when building a house.My son sells numerical controlled milling machines used for making parts for airplanes and they talk like that alot at his shop.If you are looking for a guide to show your contractor what you expect of him your barkin up the wrong tree.You'll never find a contractor that wants to work with you.If you would like to learn some constuction standards you might start with "Guide to Residential Carpentry" written by John L.Feirer and Gilbert R. Hutchings.

1. 
   Jim_Walters | Feb 06, 2001 12:22pm | #2

   *Is there such a thing as construction standards which define how straight framed walls should beGo to the lumber yard and pick out ten studs at random, then lift one end and site down it to see how straight it is. After doing ten of them, you'll get an idea about how straight your walls will be, these studs will be it's backbone.Next thing, go to the DR. and see if you can get some Prozac, you'll need it if you're planning on building a house that will have the tolerances of a piston. And pleeeeeese don't call me to build it for you.

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Feb 06, 2001 03:23pm | #3

   *yes there are standards.. but in order to keep things in the realm of reality, they are watered down so much that most self-repecting builders wouldn't dream of trying to cite them... they are concensus standards adopted as a minimum ..good builders will exceed them every time....find one.. look at their work...if you want specs, you need drawings and specs..you need an architect or designer..enforcing the specs is another matter...if you have good specs and a bad builder.. too bad..if you have no specs and a good builder.. no sweat..if you have good plans, good specs, sufficient time, sufficient budget, and a good builder... and you develop a good working relationship with the builder... finest kind...

1. 
   Dan-O | Feb 06, 2001 05:24pm | #4

   *Hey Mike, Anuddah Pearl!!

1. 
   Jason | Feb 06, 2001 07:38pm | #5

   *There is a new book that I believe the JLC just reviewed on residential standards. Perhaps someone else saw the name and can recommend it? However, I will agree with everyone else; find a builder that you trust, and let them do what they do best. If you go into this type of project, where a quarter million divergent parts, many susceptible to movement, are installed in all sorts of weather, and expect perfection or feel that you have to "watch" the builder's work, you will not be happy.

2. 
   David_Mason | Feb 06, 2001 08:12pm | #6

   *Sounds like you need stress skin panels for your exterior walls and possibly your interior walls too, they dont get no straighter than that.Just kidding about the interior walls.

3. 
   Darrell_Hambley_PE | Feb 06, 2001 10:22pm | #7

   *John,I don't think you'd get anywhere by specifying tolerances for each subcontractor. A good concrete specialist or carpenter will do the best he can, using strings, plumbs, or whatever. If you get a bad contractor, his work may be crooked, no matter what tolerance is listed on the plans. I agree with Jason, find a builder you trust and let him do his work. Darrell

4. 
   Jason | Feb 07, 2001 12:20am | #8

   *Actually, the book I mentioned was reviewed in the March issue of FH; it's called "Residential Construction Performance Guidelines". That might be a good starting point for John. I'm sure it covers the 6' rule on wall finishing (that is, if you're six feet away in normal light, and cannot discern any flaws, then there ain't any), and other industry acceptable tolerances (at least to the NAHB). But I will warn you now; the more "perfect" you want something, the more you're going to pay.

5. 
   HomeBldr_ | Feb 07, 2001 01:29am | #9

   *Just a note to add to the other accurate posts,By the time you figure the builder, his employees, subcontractors and all of their employees, you can expect about 50 people involved in your project. If you want PERFECTION, good luck. I haven't found 50 perfect people in my life, let alone my trade.Steven

6. 
   Boss_Hog | Feb 07, 2001 02:30am | #10

   *I'm kinda in line with the other guys. You need to ask around, check out someone's work, and not try to stick a bunch of numbers under their noses. I think that would get you started off on the wrong foot with just about anyone.

7. 
   Johnnie_Browne | Feb 07, 2001 03:19am | #11

   *In the industrial site of contruction, the builder goes by ASTM standards. at the top of each standard is the quote" recommended standard". these are not design to be law by to be a standard to base contruction on. Even the Highway dept. will throw out bad test if an average of all test are good. The quality of work will be the contactor's references. You get what you pay for. Offer the contractor an bonus for each straight wall and etc.

8. 
   Ralph_Wicklund | Feb 07, 2001 03:24am | #12

   *If you have to offer a bonus for a straight wall you've got the wrong contractor.

9. 
   Craig_Turner | Feb 07, 2001 05:57am | #13

   *Wow, I think most of the responses are a little too defensive. All John MG needs is some common tolerances. For example, foundation to be level to within 1/4', walls to be plumb and level to within 1/8'. Just because he works in 1/1,000ths' tolerances dosn't mean that's what he's looking for in his home.Come on guys, lay some street numbers on him.Craig

10. 
    Mike_Smith | Feb 07, 2001 06:26am | #14

    *craig...(( foundation to be level to within 1/4', walls to be plumb and level to within 1/8'. )).. i wish...what if you blow those two.. does that mean the job is bogus ?cracked slab.... cracks in the foundation..open miters, wavy walls, margins at doors, exposure of roofing and siding, joints in brickwork..low spots in concrete flatwork,....if you write it down....what do you choose ? something that will keep you out of court?or a set of ideal tolerances we all strive for ?

11. 
    Mark_Herrera | Feb 08, 2001 09:24am | #15

    *Oh Wee!Me thinks you touched a nerve here, Johnny.Fourteen hits in twenty-four hours, not bad "guest user"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Someone else coined that phrase, can't take the credit.I don't think that John expects tolerances to the thousands of an inch, however I believe his concern is, for his area, when dealing with other agents, he can specify criteria to adhere to, our industry isn't as refined, and probably rightfully so. Too many variables. There are some projects which come with pages of information detailing the level of work expected with the different trades involved. My experience has been with high end commercial work. From people who pay money to see to it that they do not deal with these issues, because they have already been spelled out and determine the bid price. The book described earlier in March FHB appears to be a good start, something I will look into. I rise above those standards, but what frame of reference can one work from with unreasonable clients?John, I suggest you begin to look around you and observe everywhere you go the level of craftsmanship you expect. This way when you find good examples you can literally ask those involved, to view it, to get on the same page with you. The basic criteria should be spelled out in the General Notes supplied by your architect.Good luck!

12. 
    Keith_C | Feb 08, 2001 02:47pm | #16

    *Tolerances huh...how about plumb must be between the lines(on the level) Level must be between the lines. Straight must look good from the street. Specs on brickwork is 16', if it looks good from there, it is. Awhile back, a guy was on the rag about his house being 3/8" out of plumb over 30'. This got all of us worked up also. 2 clients I ALWAYS run from, engineers and attorneys. It's written into my business plan, and in the company handbook. No exceptions. This does not imply that I do quick and dirty work, but rather I realize that there are people in this world that can never be satisfied. In my experience these are the two groups that I discriminate against.

13. 
    Mongo_ | Feb 08, 2001 05:18pm | #17

    *Spec tolerances for concrete work...foundation walls in plumb and the top in level, along with concrete flatwork. the later is more important if installing flooring right on top of the slab.Foundation top in level is more critical if framing with steel studs.If you have specific concerns, consider engineered beams and I-joists so your platforms don't suffer from the joist/beam shrinkage encountered when usng stock lumber.Wood moves...so what's in tolerance today may look like a machinist's funhouse tomorrow.

14. 
    Train_Driver_Chris | Feb 08, 2001 08:47pm | #18

    *Hokey? I don't know...examples of specifications that I write, maybe you guys think I'm nuts but here it goes:1. Concrete and formwork to maintain tolerances per CAN3-A23.1. In addition to tolerances spec'd herein, any exposed concrete surface which is to receive an applied finish must be level, flat and plumb (vertical) within a tolerance of 3mm in 3000mm.2. Door Frame installation: Set frames plumb, square, level and at correct elevation. Limit of acceptable frame distortion - 2mm out of plumb measured on face of frame and maximum twist corner to corner of 3mm. Door installation: maximum permissible warp shall be 3mm measured diagonally across the door.3. Testing of Water Piping System: Air testing for leakage shall be accomplished by pressurizing the entire system to 175 kPa at the lowest point in the system for a period of 4 hours. The pressure will then be reduced to 70 kPa. If the pressure remains steady for one hour, the system will be considered leak free.4. Load current balance: Conduct test by turning all possible loads in building and checking load current balance. If load unbalance exceeds 15%, reconnect circuits to balance load....to name just a fewTDC

15. 
    Mike_Smith | Feb 09, 2001 02:57am | #19

    *chris.... lemme guess..you ain't writing residential specs .. are you?i've worked commercial to specs better than that.. but in residential.. one of the things you have to factor in is.. you might hope that someone will actually bid your job...my subs would laugh if i tried to get them to sign off on specs like that...don't forget.. in commercial there are testing labs as part of the specs.. and clerk of the works, and the architects rep. on site..lots of inspectors all working to published standards...the residential contractors with staffs big enough to implement those specs don't care about those specs....the guys who care about those specs won't sign a contract to work to them.. cause who gets to decide if they are acheived.. the owner's lawyer ?i've declined jobs with tight specs cause i didn't trust the architect to use them justly..just there to CYA the architect..then i go back and look at the job ""as-built"".. hah, hah, hah.. what a joke.. some poor schmo signed that contract cause he was too dumb to know he didn't have to.... then he never got paid cause he didn't have the craftsmen.. or the experience to deliver the goods...go to the stationary store and buy a set of blank specs for building a house.. read thru them.. they don't even talk about construction as we know it today...

16. 
    Mark_Herrera | Feb 09, 2001 05:20am | #20

    *M.S. of Rhode Island, took the technical jargin right out of my mouth.Most of those technical specs are built in in the event disputes arise, and if you have an unreasonable client, potentially there are no specs which would suffice. I hope to always complete my work leaving no areas in question, and if so, to step in and correct as part of the customer service I provide.A 3mm twist in 300 milli... what?You mean the door when closed, is a little off? Let me fix that.

17. 
    John_M_G | Feb 11, 2001 06:00am | #21

    *I'm the own who started this topic. Thanks for all the information and comments. I seemed to have confused some people into thinking I expect a house to be build to the same tolerances that an engine needs to be built to. I understand that home building isn't so precise, what I was looking for is a way to look at the finished product and know that it was done properly, and if it doesn't seem right, have a way to show the contractor why I don't feel it is right so I don't receive an answer such as "that's normal" or "that's industry practice". Some of you who responded seem to be offended by my question and I suspect you may be the type of builder who's trim doesn't look quite right or the doors aren't quite plum. I admit I'm am a bit of a perfectionist, but why would anyone want to spend thousands of dollars and not get exactly what they pay for?? I'm not looking for ways to screw a contractor, only protect myself and my investment by being up front with my expectations. I'm sure some contractors won't want to work with me, but that's okay, I don't want just any contractor. Thanks again.

18. 
    Mongo_ | Feb 11, 2001 07:01am | #22

    *John, I think your statement "I don't want just any contractor." hits the proverbial nail on the head...no one should ever settle for just anyone.Some things do need to be spec'd...for me, that's concrete work and a few other items like floor stiffness, site drainage, etc. For the most part, though, houses are simply built to a set of published dimensions. Common building sense, pride of worksmanship, and building code provides a bit of guidance as well.You can spec a house to death...some guys will hit those specs, some won't. My opinion, but I don't think that a builder will meet those specs because they are in print...he'll meet them because those are the tolerances that he normally works to. Some may meet those specs, but with wood movement, they may not be in tolerance six months from now.Your best bet is to find who does the nice work and hire them. Hire their work...don't hire just any body and expect them to do the work. You don't want someone who is trying to clear the bar for the first time working on your house. You want someone who works to that level, and meets or exceeds it, each and every day.Responsibility falls on your end as well. Don't cheap out on doors, cabinetry, hinges, windows...things you'll touch and see every day. Consider what woods move more than others and choose wisely for your trim. A properly designed HVAC system will keep a constant climate in your house which will help minimize seasonal wood movement.You need to meet, talk to, and look your prospective builder in the eye. You'll need some sort of feeling that you'll get along well, that you'll communicate well. If you make your desires and expectations known up front, some will back away, some will rise to the challenge, and challenge you in return to be a responsible customer.Try this list...maybe something like this is what you're looking for?

19. 
    Jim_Walters | Feb 11, 2001 01:10pm | #23

    *Some of you who responded seem to be offended by my question and I suspect you may be the type of builder who's trim doesn't look quite right or the doors aren't quite plum. John,Not necessarily the truth. I responded in the negative to your question not because I build bad houses, (I only build one at a time, do all the wood work myself just to make sure it's done right.) The fact is, even plywoods starting to appear out of square. Plumb, level and square are goals to be sought after, but reality says it will never happen, I don't care what the contractor tells you. I replace bowed studs, crown my joists (that are seldom exactly the same depth) and straighten the plates, there's only so much you can do, period. If you want, I have written a short book about homeowners/contractors on my website that I give away for free. I'll download it as an attachment in your e-mail. jjwalters.com

20. 
    Mike_Smith | Feb 11, 2001 04:51pm | #24

    *wow, mongo..... i skimmed your b LISTS..we could spend the rest of our lives debating those items line by line... good lists..any competent builder should be able to argue the pro's & cons of every thing mentioned... 'cept for me.. cause i have no opinions of my own.....what filing system do you use... i squirrel things like those away and then forget wher i put them....ever seen a squirrel out in the yard going ... HMMMM?

21. 
    Mongo_ | Feb 11, 2001 05:32pm | #25

    *Mike, I can't even remember how I came across that list. I agree with some items, disagree with others, but on the whole I think it does a decent job at making you sratch your head and say "I hadn't thought of that one." I've had a lot of people email me about what they should think about when designing a house. This list has now become part of my reply. Not being my list, it keeps me from interjecting too much of my own opinion...except, like you, I have no opinions...Filing? In terms of keeping track of things like this list? I bookmark all "keeper" URL's in my "favorite places" list, headed under which phase of construction they apply to. Somewhat easy to keep track of though on occasion I lose a few. Then I have my cyber-dump file...a word document that I've been cutting and pasting garbage into for a few years...nothing fancy...despite being purged a few times it's an 80 or 90 page long mess. Some good outtakes from the forum buried in there as well...but still, lots of stuff that needs to be composted.

22. 
    John_MG | Feb 13, 2001 04:56am | #26

    *Thanks for all the great information and discussion. I really appreciate your help.

2. 
   John_M_G | Feb 13, 2001 04:56am | #27

   *
   I work in a manufacturing environment and am used to working with tolerances in thousands of an inch. I hope to build a house soon and wonder where I could find specifications that I could use when having different portions of the house quoted so I have a way to know if the job is done right and the contractor knows what I expect from him before starting the job. Is there such a thing as construction standards which define how straight framed walls should be, how level floors should be, etc.