Yeah so shoot me, I bid on jobs.
Seriously though. I was informed recently by the architect to whom I submited a bid, that I would not be awarded the project. He informed me basically that they found someone else to do the work for less money.
Aside from the fact that I feel he was not sufficiently appreciative of my effort, I am wondering if it would be ethical or reasonable to contact either him or the client in an effort to learn something.
I did similiar work for the same client about 2 years ago. He was overwhelmingly happy with the results. He absolutely loved my work, which by the way was some pretty high end glass mosaic tile work.
What I would like to learn fron this is the thought process and motivations that lead the ho and or the archy to believe that they could receive as good of a product from someone else at a price less than I offered.
I do not know whether or not the ho or the arch. has any experience with the proposed contractor.
Can I call either (which one) of them in a very polite and non confrontational manner in an attempt to discuss this?
I do not wish to turn this into a bid vs design build thread. Just lookin for some input.
Thanks,
Eric
Replies
Feel free to ask the architect. I don't know if he is under any obligation to tell you anything, unlike in a public bid where all the bids and addenda are public knowledge, but I would imagine that he will give you at least some information, such as the dollar amounts of the competing bids.
We bid on projects too, but we usually bid high enough so that we will have plenty of profit on the job. We do not spend too much time figuring all the details of these projects. Because of these factors we don't get many bid contracts but those we get we do well on.
We have never regretted not being the low bidder.
<Yeah so shoot me, I bid on jobs.>
Ask what ever you want of the architech. But as your first sentence stated, your problem is not with the client's decisin - or the architects recommendation, whatever it was.
The problem is that you do not place any value upon your time or expertise, as the archigtect does on his own.
Notice the went with a "cheaper" contractor. Obviously that means that you wer treated as a commodity, just like nuts, bolts, washers, hoses, wheat, etc. When you decided to do whatever it takes to make yourself other than just one more commodity, your life will take a dramatic and more positive change. And the change will occur because you will be in demand.
There's a reason why people pay $100 or more for Nike "gym shoes", or a pair of women's "Polo" slacks at $110 vs. a JCPenny pair (same slacks) at $25. Or get even more basic - 85¢ for MacDonald's coffee vs. $2.00 at Starbucks.
It's the "experience!"
Buy the book "The Experience Economy" and study it.
Sonny,
Thanks, and I do value my time. I'm not here to argue the merits of bidding vs design build. One thing I will say along those lines is this though.
I like smaller jobs, it's what I do well. There just is not a lot of room to move into design build or 'selling' clients on the idea that they should pay me for something they can get for free from 12 other contractors. So shoot me again.
That said, I believed that this was a very well qualified lead based on past experience.
Based on the quality of the product that I delivered, I believe that I should not have been treated like a commodity. I delivered a product (in the past) to this client that truly sets me apart from at least 75% of the other contractors and I will argue that to the end. I know the h/o thought so!
I have not one single tiny doubt that the work I completed for him created that "experience" as you refer to it.
What I am trying to discover is the mindset that goes into deciding to take a risk on another provider, or product if you will, considering the excellent "experience" that was achieved the first time around.
The bought a hanger steak last time Sonny, and loved it! Why are they going for the hamburger this time?
These are NOT cheapo clients by any stretch of the imagination. And, this is top shelf products on their selection.
See, I don't believe that every situation, or client, fits into a textbook scenario as so many and perhaps yourself would suggest. I say that with all do respect.
What is your guess as to why someone would take that chance of not having that "experience" with an unknown entity??
I'm trying to learn something from this experience, and I think it will come from learning the clients mindset and motivations as to his decision making process. I think it goes a little deeper than something I will learn from a book. It's a live exercise.
Thanks for your input Sonny,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric...a suggestion.
Rather than calling, which would put them on the spot, why not drop something in the mail. Allow them to contact you on their own terms if they so desire.
I`m rarely happy about losing a job....even when its to a cut rate contractor that I know won`t be able to make good on the budget price.
Unless it was a job I was intentionally attempting to avoid, I send out follow ups on virtually every bid I don`t win.
I`ve gotten back all sorts of responses over the years.....ranging from, thankyou for your concern, the project went smashingly.....wow, did we screw up not going with you.....and my personal fav, we were holding off on the project until finances allowed, we`ll be getting in touch with you shortly.
They don`t always respond, but I`ve always found that "shaking the trees" gets feedback to the questions you`d like answered.
Best of luck to ya!ATTENTION FELLOW BREAKTIME MEMBERS:
If you`d like to discuss topics other than home building, come on down to the Woodshed Tavern. Great bunch of guys and gals letting off a little steam about everything and anything. Its not a special club, but.....as of Monday, March 14, the Tavern folder will go behind an access wall. Only those who request access to this folder by contacting [email protected] will be able to view and participate in discussions there.
do you have a form type letter you send out as a follow up or is each one tailored to the specific job?
I`ve got a form set up....but I usually end up tweaking it when adding the clients name and address.....try and make it a little more job specific.ATTENTION FELLOW BREAKTIME MEMBERS:
If you`d like to discuss topics other than home building, come on down to the Woodshed Tavern. Great bunch of guys and gals letting off a little steam about everything and anything. Its not a special club, but.....as of Monday, March 14, the Tavern folder will go behind an access wall. Only those who request access to this folder by contacting [email protected] will be able to view and participate in discussions there.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours ;)
sorry couldn't resist.
We have a form at work, pretty much a form letter, and I've attached a personal touch to some of them, it wasn't used frequently in the past, but I'm trying to start using it again.
Just looking for ideas to tweak it.
I`ll try and remember to attach a copy for your perusal in the AM.....I`m on the kids computer now....the form on the business comp.ATTENTION FELLOW BREAKTIME MEMBERS:
If you`d like to discuss topics other than home building, come on down to the Woodshed Tavern. Great bunch of guys and gals letting off a little steam about everything and anything. Its not a special club, but.....as of Monday, March 14, the Tavern folder will go behind an access wall. Only those who request access to this folder by contacting [email protected] will be able to view and participate in discussions there.
mines on the computer in the office.
if you're interested I'll also try to remember...
chances are I'll forget.
same for you lol?
I've contacted architects and interior designers in the past to check on lost bids just as Eric wants to do. The letter idea you propose NEVER worked once for me. I never once had someone contact me back because of a letter I sent them. Email does work sometimes, but calling works best.
You have to corner these guys like a rat to get an answer out of them. If you get a secretary that asks your name, then says, "Oh, he's not here. Can I take a message?" he won't call back. You need to call later and give a different name then you might get through. Or have the secretary call and when she gets him on the phone have her hand the phone to you. May sound crazy, but that's been my experience.
Thanks Jay,
I was concerned a bit about any mis-perception that the call might be confrontational in any way. Last thing I would want, and I would never let it go that way.
So, good idea about the card or letter.
I'll probably end up calling the archy on this one, he was steering all the subs.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric, I'm not talking about bidding, vs. design - just providing bids.In Michigan I lived in an area that was mostly blue collar and farmers, yet I still had a very high close ratio while being about 15% -20% or more higher than my so called competitors. So suffice it to say my customers there were not wealthy, but plain old "working stiffs." However, even here if I install $5000 of cabinets or $50, 000 of cabinets, I too do not consider the $5000 customer cheap, just in a lower economic class, or maybe they're wealthy but like my wife and I, just don't see any advantage in dropping $50K in cabinets, or $40K in a car, for that matter.Let me differentiate here that workmanship has nothing to do with the "experience", or experiences" we want our customer to enjoy. The two are as separate apples and oranges.You said: "See, I don't believe that every situation, or client, fits into a textbook scenario as so many and perhaps yourself would suggest." I agree. Each person, just as you and I, have different priorities and different values. But it's still up to us to make the "potential" customer aware of the tremendous value they receive in a detailed Proposal, and that Proposals are not "entitlements."May decades ago an older brother, upon learning how much time I spent on an average sales call, estimating the project, typing the Proposal, driving back to their home to go over with it - for free. he said I was nuts. I said: "But no other contractor charges for Proposals so I can't either." He was right and I was wrong. Before someone came up with the idea of bottling water and selling it, no one else bottled water and sold it.When the first gas station decided to let people pump their own gas, I'm sure other station owners told him he's go broke. When the first doctor stopped making house calls I'm sure his peers told him the same thing. And who thought I've be paying someone else $90 per month just to cut my grass?So a few years ago after not even getting the courtesy of a phone call to tell me that someone else got a job, I said to myself: "That's it!" and started explaining to people what went into that piece of paper in their hands, and low and behold, they paid for my SCAs, and still do. And lo and behold, other contractors across the country are doing the same thing.Ballparks while on the first sales call are free. Detailed Proposals are another story completely.Think about it."I'm trying to learn something from this experience, and I think it will come from learning the clients mindset and motivations as to his decision making process."Believe me, you will not live long enough to learn people mindsets and motivations. They change 5 minutes after you leave. They lie to you. Their priorities change daily. Their budget changes. You and I are like General Motors. GM and you and I are capable of making a Chevy or a Cadillac. So regardless of the customers decision(s), we want them to stick with GM - us.Don't drive yourself nuts. Remember, you're a salesman first. Barb and I went to dinner tonight with my son and his family. I found out that one of his salesmen has already made more this year than he made all of last year as a construction manager. The amount he made last year was $60,000. That's over $60,000 in 2.5 months - in sales commission. The second guy made about $38K so far, and even that is aboujt $152K for this year, but he's wealthy anyway so he doesn't push.Read the book. It's an "exercise" of the wisdom of many lives', not just one. And all for a few bucks. Can you beat that as a deal? Be a salesman first, and a contractor second.Like I said. Think about it, or not. Just trying to help.
I'm very surprised to see no one mentioned the architect. Seems he was in direct contact with the HO and might have steered the account to his favorite contractor. It's most important to know the decision maker then work toward that person's motives.In my last life I used to award over $1M per year in contracts. The phone call from a supplier was the best way to get me to respond. Of course the people that I had a good working relationship with usually called. Other, less personable people, did not follow up nearly as much. When asked I was as truthful as possible. It is not always the money that loses a bid, sometimes it's the schedule, or area of expertise, or the other guy took you to dinner last time he was in town. Take what you will from this, IMHO the personal relationship goes a long way toward the bottom line. Stu
Sonny,
Thanks for all the advice.
You have given me much to think about, and I've been doing that a lot lately!
Even if I don't fully understand everything you offered, it is food for thought and perhaps will be better realized in time.
Thanks,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Thanks Sonny, I love it when you type about this stuff. I wish yud ferget politics! <G>
Tim, I love this industry and the people in it, but as you know, with all the sun must come a little rain. That's me, and you and everyone else here.
Based on your commitment to running a smart business (evident in your posts), I am not suprised that you want to follow up on lost bids. It will provide you with more feedback that will help you further improve how you do things.
However, I believe that as you continue to more aggressively market and tune up the "business side" of the business--the less you will probably worry about loosing bids.
In my market, there are about 250 GC's but only 28 are listed in the yellow pages--and few have interesting names or logos. Only two have websites. I don't have a yellow pages ad either, but like you I want the kind of marketing exposure that will help ensure that I am so busy--even at premium prices--that loosing a bid is ok. This is a recent revelation for me (thank you breaktime).
Like you, I think I do better work than most. I figure that if people make the mistake of going low bid, they will get an inferior result that will be in stark contrast to my work. In the long run, I consider their mistake--good for my business.
Thanks Bass,
Based on your commitment to running a smart business (evident in your posts), I am not suprised that you want to follow up on lost bids. It will provide you with more feedback that will help you further improve how you do things.
That's probably where i was going with this.
The fact that I got little feedback is what is frustrating I guess.
The architect called my cell while I was dangling from a scaffold 25' in the air on a windy 20deg. day. It was short. I should have just told him I'd like to call him back, so, my bad!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Who am I to be giving advice to you anyway, I've never even been referred to an architect for bidding (well a landscape architect once).I just recently added, "framing architectural details--curved walls, tray ceilings, barrel vaults, arches, etc." to my new attempt at a website. Maybe I can start loosing bids submitted to architects someday soon--Hah!
I soooo understand where you're coming from. You put so much effort and thought into a proposal that you want to follow up. Get over it! The job is lost, not yours, belongs to another. YOU decide what went wrong, if anything. Use your keen sense of analysis and determine if the loss was due to timing, poor comunication, cost, quality (too high or too low)... It's like after a chick breaks up with you - you may want to approach her and say "why?" or "I can do better." Bad idea. Her heart has already moved on.
Rather than spending your time, and other's, on jobs that are already lost, spend it on improving your situation. Retool your proposals, introduce yourself to other GCs, architects and realtors. Read one of the many books we have suggested. But of all things- stop licking your wounds. Stop being a victim. Stop defining yourself by your losses.
Work on everything involved with winning. One thing you can do, regarding after the bid sumbission and/ or rejection, is to mail a Thank You letter for being asked to participate in the process. This keeps you fresh in their mind, reminds them you don't define yourself as a loser and will most likely put you on their A List in the future as you have demonstrated a fine ability to get along. Remember - most agreements, partnerships and matches are based on relationships.
Read "The 7 Habits..." by Steven Covey. Then, you'll get it.
F
Drop the HO and arch a short note or card thanking them for opportunity to bid on the job and that you look forward to their consideration on future projects. Then, move on.
Don't pester them with whys? and what fors? You are a pro, you bid the work knowing the existing conditions (having worked there before) and they went elsewhere. I only hope you underprice the first job because they dangled this project- BTDT-TPS.
Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Frankie,
While I can't really argue with much of what you said, I'm not sure the analogy works.
I'm only trying to learn something, not present myself as a victim.
These two loved my past work at my normal rates presented in the same fashion.
What's changed?
I have the book, started it many years ago, don't know how far I got, but I'll look into it again.
Boy, I've got a lot of reading to do.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
eric..... you gave a bid to an architect ?
<<<<<I did similiar work for the same client about 2 years ago. He was overwhelmingly happy with the results. He absolutely loved my work, which by the way was some pretty high end glass mosaic tile work>>>
your relationship was with the customer... you let a person with different goals than your's get between you and your client
architects are not to be trusted unless you have a relationship with one..
their goal is taking care of themselves... usually at your expense..
how did you get on the bid list ? if it was from the customer, then you should never have given up control of dealing direct with the customerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey Eric,
Skip the Architect and go directly to the customer.(period) The customer was yours in the past and the very least they owe you is some FEEDBACK on your bidding. If the architect didn't give them all the bids or is acting as the GC you may get some leverage.
Speaking of Architects, I was working with a client on adding a second story to his law offices. I reccomend this guy(architect) and he starts quoting prices for the work to my customer. It was freakin bizzare. Not only were the prices unrealistic he was offering to find people to bid. Had a little dust up, of course, told the archi if he could build it for those prices he oughta be a contractor. Told them all to poop in thier hats.
Had roughed out some numbers but ended up not getting the job. Who wants to work for laywers anyway? Amazingly enough the job came in at almost exactly what I said it would.
I have now remodled 2 rooms in one of the lawyers houses, did his roof, and a small addition. All profitably and with no competitive bids...
Go directly to the customer!
.... um, er, and what Mike said.
Achitect literally means "Chief-carpenter" (Arch as in arch-angel, the head angel and tect from Greek "tekton"--carpenter). Too bad so many architects seem so out of touch with their roots. Strap a tool belt on them for ten years at least, before allowing them to call themselves "chief-carpenters."
Interesting, I had some names for him that sounded latin, french, and german. Which, of course, I only used a few of to his face.
Mike,
...others.
I was not clear on that point so I'll explain. (at the risk of Frankie hitting me with a hammer!)
I have had a relationship with the arch. Done plenty of work on his home. Built hin a sweet three car garage a year or so ago.
I've done other work (not a lot) for his CLIENTS in the past, price never seemed to be an issue.
This client, I did some real nice tile work for, through the arch who designed and ran the bathroom remodel about a year ago. The client payed me direct. I'll say it again, we had a really good experience. He absolutely loved what I did, and he's one of those artsy fartsy types.
This time, same deal, arch. designed and manages job, gathers subs as needed for a master bath remodel. I submit a proposal based on plans and written scope of work.
Just trying to figure out what changed and possibly learn how to forsee it or not encounter same situation again.
Actually, I think I was wondering if you all thought it would be ethical or not to contact the client.
Thanks all for your thoughts.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I can't see anything unethical about it. I can't even see why you are asking the question. Maybe thats just me, I don't know. I can't even see why you haven't done it already.
<This time, same deal, arch. designed and manages job, gathers subs as needed for a master bath remodel.>So are you saying he acts as a GC, locating the subs? Not too ethical for an arch. unless he's licensed as a GC.
I regularly contact people who have asked me to look at a project and for which I have submitted a proposal. I try and weed out "price" before I start, but sometimes the prospect of "what is your budget for this job" shakes them. They think I'm being too pushy so I can design to their maximum. Sigh.
I loose more than I get because I know what it will cost, and the newby or scammer will lowball. Sigh.
I'm still in the game, though.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
hey Eric
hope it hasn't been too many days since you were up on that scaffolding receiving that phone call
from your working relationship w/ the architect it would not be out of line at all to ask if you could review / discuss project and what happened to your proposal - a learning proposition for future
my take would be there is a chance your past clients were not even aware you were being considered / could have been a scenario like received two bids we'll go w/ this one over phone or he's just putting together the whole package
I'd write them a nice note like I contributed a proposal on your xyz project w/ architectural firm and was intrigued w/ the project and so looked forward to working w/ you again - disappointed I will not be part of the team and move on
It's not your presentation , rather it's the way you percieve yourself. You are trying to confirm what you already know. Reread your posts. Trust yourself and your analysis. Now move on. Stop beating yourself up. You have already learned what you can from this experience.The post from Mike regarding who you submitted your bid to is an important point. F
My two cents: "loss analysis" is a vital part of sales & marketing in any line of work. You have to know why you lose bids in order to win them. There's no shame in asking, and there should be no akwardness. I wouldn't hesitate to call the HO or the archy ... maybe even take the archy to lunch, which would accomplish several things: find out why you lost, give him a chance to get to know you better, and see if he has any other work he could send your way. Let us know what you learn!
Thanks Bill,
Good, direct, and informative answer!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
If your friend is your sole contact for this job then I would not contact the homeowner. He can replace you easiar than you got brought into the picture. Theres always next time you hope.
You bid the job , you lost it , be a man and walk away. I would not want you calling my customer . Theres no postitve in it for them. If you called my customer , I would not call you again. [ If thats what I understood]
I dont know as much as Sonny , but I have learned somthing in this arena;
If I was worth 10 dollars yesterday in a bid, then why am I worth 7 dollars today? Im not . Once I brought 10 bucks , Im a 10 buck man. <G>
You bid what you felt like you were worth. Walk tall, walking away. May be when that job is done , they will know it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If stuff hits the fan , they might say , hey we screwed the pooch. We cold have afforded Eric. You could have blessed their job at that point if they get a lousy job done to them , but that action hasnt happened yet . Dont go callin them . Be proud and cocky and say you gave them a great price cause thats the only cards youv`ve got left to play.
Tim Mooney
Edited 3/13/2005 9:04 pm ET by TIMMOONEY52
Yeah Tim,
you're right. Only reason I thought about calling the client is because I've done work for him before, throught he archy of course.
Maybe I did bid too high. Perhaps it was because the architetect could not even provide me with a detail as to how the step down shower should be waterproofed, or the fan$y glass and porcelain tile that the owner wanted set with toothpick joints.
Oh, almost forgot the 3 tiled alcoves that I would need to fabricate and install to line up with those tiny grout lines.
Or maybe the guy that got the job didn't catch those SMALLISH details.
Hey, it's not like I don't know what I'm doing or lake confidence in myself, as that seems to have gotten interjected in this thread.
I've done work for a number of people that were happy as a pig in shi t, but on the next job, they hired the low baller and got burnt. I know it for a fact as a few have even called me in, bright red with embarassment too.
Rather than settle for "I'll never know why", I'd rather try to learn something from it if I can.
As you can see, opinions and thouths have been all over the place on this one.
Maybe it was a dopey question, but I think enough of us have been there that this thread offered a bit of insight to more than just me.
I like to ask a lot of questions, and I like to ask things that are of interest to others too when ever I can.
Thanks Tim,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric, Tim's right. Save your self respect. The first time (decades ago) I thought about calling a customer who decided to hire someone else; the one thing that kept me for doing it (and today as well) is that I felt like I had my nose up their rear end begging for another chance, whining to myself: "What did I do wrong?" Never.Like Tim, I stand tall always. Like crap shoots, we win some an lose some. Remember, customers have to rationalize their decisions just as we do. And there is no way we can, after the fact, agree or disagree with the reason for their decision. It's why some like Chevies and some like Fords, yet others swear by Toyota or Dodge. It's business. Put it behind you and go on to the next sale.Funny, when I first got into this business about 35 years ago I used to get hurt - my feelings - when I lost a job. Felt like I was the best person, great workmanship, accommodated people as much as I could, etc. Eventually I realized that to customers, it's like deciding whether to buy the Maytag or the GE washer and dryer. Yes, to many people we are merely one more commodity. Such is business life. Accept it.
I have enormous respect for both Sonny and Tim, but I have to disagree with them on this issue. There is no shame - no loss of respect - in asking why you lost the bid. Do NOT simply assume you lost on price and move on with your life. Assuming you lost it on price would be about the worst thing you could do - what if it wasn't price, but you start trimming your future bids based on that assumption, only to find out it was bad breath or something. Just ask - it's no big deal.
I'm in an unrelated field, but I used to do hundreds of bids. I was expected to provide a monthly loss analysis to my management - of the bids we lost, what percentage were lost due to price, schedule, support, product mis-match, etc. Every loss was discussed ad naseum until we were sure we understood why we lost. It was an invaluable exercise that allowed us to adjust our business on the fly and win nearly every bid we wanted to win. (eventually, the only reasons that I could get away with were "we bid it high cause we didn't really want it" and "the customer says we have too much of their business already and wanted to throw a bone to the other guy so he stays in business and keeps us honest")
Edited 3/14/2005 7:35 am ET by Bill W
For me it isn't a matter of self respect. Or perhaps better stated I feel they owe you some feedback. You took the time to review the plans and come up with prices. Did you charge for that?
I agree with the stay cocky, be proud, move on to the next job attitude but Bill is hitting the nail on the head. If the Archi comes back with I found a guy to do it cheaper or that he likes better or 'whatever' you will better know how to proceed if he calls you again. A little feedback from the homeowner or the Architect could save you tons time and frustration later.
Eric, if the previous job was through the architect I wouldn't contact the owners directly. Too much chance for the architect to feel out of the loop when he hears about it. I would probably tell the archy that I like to follow up on bids I lose, and could he tell me the reason I lost. That keeps the archy in the role he wants to be in, gives you a pretty good chance at finding out what went wrong, and keeps everything professional and businesslike.
If he tells you the price was the problem, let him know you still want to be on his list. Next time you'll know to spend more time selling value to this guy or his clients.
Mike
Hey Eric,
My opinion which I don't think has been suggested here is that this is one of those "no one right answer" scenarios. I believe that the answer is largely determined by your personality. Some people could have a friendly, comfortable, non confrontational discussion with either the arch or the client, some people couldn't. By way of example, I know I can schmooze any client, I have years of sales experience and have won many awards. But I know that while I'm also good at collecting money, I am confrontational about it. For a long time I handled collections at a firm I worked for and got great results, but often by getting heavy, and I've never been able to get past that attitude. In the past it has cost me a client or two so I try to avoid it because I know I get marginally intense.
So I'd suggest that you look inside and ask yourself sincerely if you feel your personality lends itself to a productive conversation about this matter. If so, I don't see a thing wrong with it. If not, however, let it go and move on. Having met you, you're a great guy who exudes professionalism. If the client went elsewhere, I have no doubt it came down to money, and sometimes you just can't get around it.
PaulB
Eric , you are a super nice guy and I dont have any intention of pissin you off . OK?
I just ate a guys butt pretty deep in "spec house thread" , and didnt really mean to do that . From some other posts , I was postintg the truth but I guess I lacked bed side manner. So please look over my manner please. And anyone else including Sonny which I respect.
Theres two sides of looking at any thing like this and I always say;
"It depends on which side of the football you are on when its snapped".
If Im trying to bid and make money , I love listening to Sonny.
If Im on the paying end , he can take his "experience " and put it where the sun dont shine! I will absolutely gaureentee that I would not pay his price under any conditions . If he gets 99 percent of his bids I would be the one Azz hole that would stump him from getting 100 percent. . I dont care what he says. I said that affectionately in requards to him. I like his methods. They would not work on me.
You are either not streamlined enough to handle this job cheap enough or someone is going to do it making less money. They may be making more profit than you though when they are doing it. . Sonny,s answer is always charge more money. I love it , but he can stick it . I wouldnt pay him a dime more money, I would break my neck getting it done cheaper. Some people which I believe are very strong in numbers , operate off a bottom line . The more money they get to the bottom line the more money they can bring to the house . You know anyone like that ? I guess no one else has ever heard of it why someone would take the cheapest bid. The way these guys on here talk somtimes , the people are lucky to have their azz on the job. Im sorry , I dont feel that way. Im in it for a profit or shes not gonna get done cause Im not going to build it period.
Just a look from their side .
Tim Mooney
You eat guys butts?
Thats what a friend accused me of
Hmmmm......
Ive read all the threads thus far and realize the old factor of it depends on which side of the ball yer on when its snapped still comes in to play.
Our purpose here is to help you , and each other. Then time comes to get our self helped. So with that as primary;
You already have an air about you in this thread that you are "good". Theres nothing wrong with that ! You also believe it and all we have here is the thread to read to base our opinions from and that must be understood. We are led here to base our assumptions that in deed you are pretty salty at what you do for a living . If youre not , this thread would then be useless because of the information that was fed to us. Ill assume you are "good".
We have an unknown to base the value of your competitor. We dont know for a fact if hes good or bad but as Sonny has stated , it doesnt really matter from your hand of cards. Often times peple know information they are unwilling to devulge, or to make known to certain other parties. There may be reasons that will never be known.
There is a rising star in HVAC that just got his lisense here . The state inspector and my self have agreed hes cream of the crop , "good". He must have took every thing he learned in school and treated like a bible , because according to the S Inpector , his work is indeed text book . He was hired from a vocational school where he was an instructor. I took him to the job to let him see his work. Hes very cheap right now in his bidding . He has a family that he feeds and hes the sole support with a wife with a new baby. To bring a decent pay check home he works 7/10s. After entering the bidding from just last August , hes in top demand with contractors. He turns out the work in a short amount of time and all work is "good'. Its also is done cheaper than anyone . He has built a business out of necessity. Most of us here could not compete with someone like that unless we wanted to do the same thing. One man working alone is the most productive way and hes the owner of the company who cares. Thats one extreme example.
Theres a carpenter here that only wants to do high end work. He is indeed very good. Damn good! He also works alone and this is his main disadvantage. Every thing he touches demands top scale pay , even a broom. BY the time hes done tunning and setting up his tools in a methodical manner and the shut down time at the end of the day, he works 6 billable hours at his trade. The end negative result is that he is VERY high priced because of mis-management . He doesnt get the high dollar he costs , he eats it up . Another extreme example .
Finally there is a builder here thats very fast and very cheap. His quality is passable to the general crowd. Its amazing that some of his customers are people with money. As I mentioned , a lot of people with money got it by operating from a bottom line and live that way. To some people its not important to live in a mansion.
Sonny strikes again and mentions that people make their life choices of whats important to them. Dont waste time trying to figgure them. Ive have inspected homes that had money dripping off them and leaving I would have to wonder how they could afford it ? Ive inspected in homes where there was true "old " money . In other words they are rich. They lived in a very dated home that could stand a single man that was "good" for a year. They didnt want to pay for the top equipment I inspected. It simply wasnt important to them or they didnt believe there was a difference. Several 10 seer units I inspected sold to them. Ive hunted on property that had the finest spreads around in cattle ranching and farming . Places that were well worth a million. Mebbe a thousand acres, or several hundred, with mucho equipment . Id knock on the door of a 60 thousand dollar farm house in need of a carpenter and painter. Evidently the man made the decisions in that house and the money. To close this , I have inspected some professional peoples houses that were real dumps. Top of the line in what they do and work all the time . All they really need is an apartment. I think their values were all in their work because thats where they lived. Mebbe chasing the dollar , who knows.
Dont take this lost bid personal.
DW runs a company that contracts work . They also use a lot of subs. They are sometimes the subs. When they deal with the user customer they do ask if they dont get the quote. If too many say the same thing then they return to the drawing board to evaluate. Very smart practice. If they are the sub, they will only speak to the prime contractor, never the user in that case. Professionalism. You could speak to the archy about it .
Tim Mooney
Theres a carpenter here that only wants to do high end work. He is indeed very good. Damn good! He also works alone and this is his main disadvantage. Every thing he touches demands top scale pay , even a broom. BY the time hes done tunning and setting up his tools in a methodical manner and the shut down time at the end of the day, he works 6 billable hours at his trade. The end negative result is that he is VERY high priced because of mis-management . He doesnt get the high dollar he costs , he eats it up . Another extreme example .
EEEEaaaassssyyyyy there pardner!!!
You been followin' me or something??
That's funny, reminds me of me sometimes, well sorta.
Thanks for all the good words Tim.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
just read thru the thread
when you were asked to bid/propose, were you told what the award basis was?
did u ask?
do u know who else was bidding?
if everone bidding were just as good as you, then their going low price makes sense.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
<when you were asked to bid/propose, were you told what the award basis was? >As Tony the tiger would say: "Grrrrrrrrrrrreat!" questionSo how many people here actually ASK the customer what his/her priorities are, and is why I stopped working for architects about 25 years ago.I own a business.As such I'm a salesman FIRST - always.How can I sell myself if I cannot see and talk to the potential buyer? And if I cannot see and talk to a potential buyer, regardless of the relationship with any arch, you are still only a commodity, with a little reputation thrown in - but still being utilized as a commodity FIRST, just as in industrial and commercial projects.15% higher than another guy's price yet yesterday I got three projects from the same condo association.Brand yourself!BTW Eric, on my estimating sheet I have separate line items for:1. Obtain material - one of more suppliers
2. Initial material & tools to work area
3. Return excess materials and tools back to truck
4. Daily set up time (including content protections)
5. Daily clean up time
6. Debris from area to truck or dumpster
7. Debris removal from my truck to dump - plus fee
8. Supervision
9. Final clean up
10. Contingency
11. Design Time
12. Client special needs
13. Sales Expense (1 hr. or 5% of sales price)Obviously I get paid for everything and anything related to the job, even if it's only a 4 hour repair. If not, I lose money, and I'm in business to "make" money, not assuage an ego as is the case with far too many of our peers..
Previously in this thead I read someone say their initial ballpark estimate was free, detailed bids cost. I wondered, how many folks here charge for detailed bids? I give mine for free but I'm only a year into my business and still v e r r y hungry. I figured a good detailed bid would immediately set me apart from my competitors. I include a diagram of the deck or roof that I'm bidding on as well as a breakdown of the labor included with the bid. I don't breakdown the cost of the labor or material - they just get one number (plus upgrade options). I just want them to know what I'm going to do for the price that I charge.I typically spend 1 - 1 1/2 hours per bid, 2 - 3 hours for complex projects ($20K and up decks). That doesn't include the initial appointment to meet with the HO and go over the project, take measurements, etc.Mac
Mac,
There's been a lot going on in the folder past month or two.
Poke around in the search and you will find lots of info about estimates/bidding/proposals.
Search on Sonny Lykos, Mike Smith, Jerrald Hayes, SCA and the terms above.
Hang around.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Will do - I haven't spent much time in the Business area lately so I didn't follow the threads. Thanks,Mac<!----><!---->
Edited 3/25/2005 10:45 am ET by Mac
Mac, I just fininshed a re-write of Sonny's SCA.
We'll be selling SCA packages. Ball parks are free, but that's the end of my generosity.
Take a look at the attachments then we can discuss them.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Hey Blue,I'm looking over your intro letter. I'll spend some more time on it tonight and get back to you but from the first read-through, I'm impressed. You've got some great points on why you're not going to be the lowest bidder and some insights into what the Homeowner needs to realize when they start comparing bids. You've spent a lot of time on this and I appreciate your willingness to let me read through it.Thanks,Mac<!---->View Image<!---->
Mac, don't thank me...thank Sonny! I plagerized his 14 page document. I tweaked it a little but the vast majority is his work.
I will be re-writing the entire document over to more clearly outline our program.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Nice Logo!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I've been searching the forum for posts from Sonny and learning a ton. That's a guy who knows his sh*t and I'm happy as hell that he's willing to share it in Breaktime!Thanks for the compliment - I did graphic design and computer repair in a previous life. That experience comes in handy when it comes to advertising materials and putting together a memorable "look." I want to be known in this town as THE deck guy - gotta make them remember my name first!Mac<!---->View Image<!---->
Blue, did you create a short form contract yet?
I'm just about to sell my first SCA, but I could just write the long contract and use it.
I also (after 20 something years) finally walked away from a prospect knowing what the budget they had in mind was.
I'm not sure if it was because she understands the process (she is a designer) or it was just easy for her to give it up.
So I'll need one for this job as well.
If you or Sonny don't mind, would you share it either here or email?
Things are looking up.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Here's what Sonny sent me.
I decided that I'd write one using a different style. I prefer a letter style format. I'm waiting to hear from our architecht about what type he uses. We're probably going to plagerize his, or at least adapt some of his disclaimers.
If/when I get something drafted, I'll share it.
FYI: both Frank and I went on separate SCA sales calls today. Our selling plan does not include a trial close. We both are in agreement that we want a very low key, no pressure sale. The document that explains our SCA approach is 14 pages long and I want the homeowners to take the time to read and digest it before they commit to us. I'd rather lose an unwilling client than close them without them takin all the time they need to investigate us, as well as the competition.
Our message is dead on. We will be using the Lead Carpenter style of building and we can promise that our guy will be on site every day for the entire project. The SCA process allows us to bring their Lead Carpenter onsite during the measuring process and get acquainted. If they don't feel comfortable with him, then I'm going to suggest that they find another General Contractor. In my sales presentation today, I explicitly told them that we are only interested in working with nice people on nice projects. Life is too short for both of us. I presented the SCA process time as kind of a test drive. If we don't like our time together on the $2500 SCA process, we better part company on the $100,000 dollar project.
They were very agreeable. I'll be interested to see how this all shakes out.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Nice going Blue!!
We all owe Sonny, Mike, Jerrald Hayes and others a big round of applause!
Is JLC like this?
I rambled in and out sevaral times, but not enough to get a good feel for the place.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
blue
Since you are doing more sales you might check out this guy. Jeffrey Gitomer. Very good stuff, if a little different. I read his columns for several years in a business newspaper. Then I found his website. He has some kind of sales blast (?) that comes via e mail. good stuff
http://www.gitomer.com/
SCRAPR, the weekly news looked like a good piece of info. I'm slightly concerned about subscribing to a ezine. I'm afraid of spam attacks. How bad do they abuse the email address?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
blue
I haven't noticed anything that could be traced to gitomer. (insert joke about "enhancements here) lol
Good solid sales stuff for us non pros.
Good solid sales stuff for us non pros.
Speak for yourself. I'm a pro....just a bad one!
I already bit the bullet. I'm on his list. I liked his stuff and I printed it out.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I checked out Gitomer's website too. I've been dragging my feet for so long saying, oh, I'm not a salesman. Too bad, Mac, that's what GETTING the construction jobs are all about. I'm in business for myself which means if I don't sell me, no one will!I like his thought of making the opening intriguing - get 'em on the front end and it's much easier closing on the back end.If anyone's running a Mac with OS X and is having problems viewing his vid clips, let me know. I had to monkey around with my internet plug-ins to get it to load properly.<!---->View Image<!---->
Mac, I have all that stuff shut off, so I didn't view any of the clips. Is the stuff worth looking at?
You said "I've been dragging my feet for so long saying, oh, I'm not a salesman. " That's a good sign....identifying your weaknesses; in this case denial or procrastination or just plain ignorance. I can pretty much guarantee that you will never find a strong company that flourished with poor salespeople. Most one man bands survive, not because of sales skills but rather because the competition's sales skills are worse!
Welcome to the rude awakening! It's okay, you will either learn to sell or learn how to structure your offer to a salesperson.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I liked the clip - he's sitting at a coffee table telling you that you need to get the client to a point where they want to trust you, where they're interested in you, where price is no longer the most important thing about the deal, YOU ARE. He's not preaching the slick willy close "So what do I need to do to get you to sign today, right now?" He's saying you've got to get them interested in you from the git go, that way when it comes time to close, the close has already happened. All that's left is for them to sign.I just glanced at the newsletter stuff, been busy with family stuff this weekend.I'll get this selling stuff down, I know I CAN, it's just a matter of DOING. Have a great Easter and good luck with your venture with Gandalf. Sounds like someone you could learn a lot from, get to to the point of taking your business to the next level.Mac<!---->View Image<!---->
I'll get this selling stuff down, I know I CAN
That's the right attitude!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"I'm afraid of spam attacks. How bad do they abuse the email address?"there are a number of places that you can obtain free email accounts. they allow different size emails.I have three email addresses.one has a 4meg size limitone 6 megdon't remember the third, which is my ISP.I use either of the first two for most things I do over the net. that way if the spam gets bad I can cancel the address.the hotmail mail accounts seem to get a lot of spam.try mail.com (4 meg on the free address), they have a lot of address types, not just mail.com. I've had decent luck with them. my free accounts reguire I log in at least once every 30 days.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter