Anyone have a list of terms that they supply to their subcontractors?
I’ve been a subcontractor most of my career and now I’m in the other seat. I’ve noticed that the papework supplied by most contractors is….non existant to inadequate to awful to useless.
Anyways, I want to shoot them a litany of terms that they agree to…basic stuff like
1)no spitting tobacco juice on the Project Mangers boots or tiled floors.
2) Close door on Porta Potty when dumping, if you dump inside.
etc.
How do you GCs handle these basic instructions. I had a few lists compiled from MI builders but I can’t find them anymore in the move.
Bob’s next test date: 12/10/07
Replies
<Anyone have a list of terms that they supply to their subcontractors?>
Yeah, but Prospero would block it out, likely.
Forrest
Trying to atach file for u.
If you have "the contractors legal kit"? it has a good one, and i think might be the base to mine i dont remember.
Thanks Passin. I forgot to look in my legal kit. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks PASSIN. These are great.
Runnerguy
hmm, both of these seem like smart ideas:
Subcontractor agrees; to not engage in any additional work brought forth from homeowner/ building owner for the period of 180 days after final payment to Contractor from homeowner/ building owner without express written consent from Contractor.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Subcontractor agrees to not quote pricing for additional work to homeowner. All quotes for additional work must go through Contractor for the period of 180 days after final payment made to Contractor from home owner/ building owner.
Thanks for the tip!<!----><!---->Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
I agree. There is language in Grant's docs that deal with the non-compete side of the business but it was for a much longer timeframe. Thanks Passin for posting those Doc files. I got caught up in the next posts on the thread and failed to acknowledge your contribution. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Email me your fax number and I'll fax you a set I just signed that I thought were pretty comprenhisive. They've got some company info (the GC's) on them I don't want to post here.
http://grantlogan.net/
Check your e-mail when you get a moment, I meant to send the first message as an e-mail, then accidently posted.
I didn't want gunner faxing me a picture of his #### 100 times so I deleted my message here.
Didnt want you to get stuck with one of those un-read messages if I deleted the whole post...
Edited 1/11/2008 1:12 pm ET by CAGIV
Edited 1/11/2008 1:14 pm ET by CAGIV
It's on the way.http://grantlogan.net/
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"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Got it, thanks a bunch
Grant, I shot you an email through your website email address. I attached a copy of that subcontract term sheet in PDF files. I just wanted to alert you in case you have a thick firewall. The file is 750 kb. I don't know how to compress a pdf file, or I would have.Thanks again. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's on the way.
http://grantlogan.net/
Thank You.It'll take some time for the office to circulate it to me. I'll probably get it tomorrow. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I got the terms sheet yesterday, thank you very much. That was exactly what I was looking for. We'll tweak it a bit but it is a great foundation.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
No problem
http://grantlogan.net/
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"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
I've never heard of this before.
You guys need to spell out how people should act?
Sounds like the talent pool in your areas are lacking.
If I got handed one by a GC, I draw my own up for him/her.
If we can't communicate like adults I guess I'll stoop to passing notes like a 10 year old.
Woods favorite carpenter
Now that Jim's made me a pdf, I'll send you this one if you like. I don't have a problem with it. It protects me as much as it does them. Just lays out the rules so you know what's what and who's who. There's not a thing on it that forces any change in my operation.http://grantlogan.net/
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"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
I'm not sure I fully understand the point of it. Then again I hate paperwork of almost any kind.
I'm curious to see what it is.
What does Jim need one for? He fires everyone anyway. ;)
Woods favorite carpenter
Actually, I don't have anyone to fire anymore! That's not quite true but almost...Grant's agreement is a very critical component to protect and indemnify. Here in Texas... indemnifying is good. I rummaged around looking for the one we had to sign to do work with one of the big nationals. It had to be 15 or 20 pages of small print boilerplate. I swear, we signed over our first born...
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This must be an issue in bigger cities than the one I operate in.
Your name is what keeps you alive here, only 20,000 population. So word travels faster than wildfire.
You burn a HO or a contractor and it probably will be you last job for a while.
There aren't any national builders here either, just local contractors that everyone in the field knows one way or another.
Whats the purpose of this? Are you signing a rules sheet? If so you might as well be an employee and take an hourly rate. Woods favorite carpenter
Whats the purpose of this? Are you signing a rules sheet?
Yeah, basically. I'm away from the computer with the pdf, but I'll send it to you in the morning.
There's stuff like no smoking in the house after the drywall's up. When your bill has to be turned in to get paid by a certain date. You promise you won't try to steal their help and they reciprocate. It's all common sense and common courtesy. But there's a lot of stuff on there you or I might not think of until a problem arises. These things spell out how a problem will be handled so it can be dealt with swiftly and fairly. And if you don't like the terms going in, you don't have to sub to the prime contractor. http://grantlogan.net/
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"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
It does sound like common sense to me.
If they have forms for it, must not be too common for some.
Woods favorite carpenter
If they have forms for it, must not be too common for some.
'zactly.http://grantlogan.net/
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"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Send me your email address and I'll send you a copy.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Matt, if you entered into a contract with the general contractor to frame a 50k commercial building and half way through the contract, you and your guys got killed on the way to lunch, how would the contract be resolved? If one of your guys gets angry at the plumber because he hacks into the frame too much, and goes crazy and sawzalls all the limbs off the plumber's laborer, who really wasn't a laborer but was someone that had just walked up to ask for a plumbers job, who is responsible when the lawsuits start? If your frame falls down overnight and crushes the neighbors shed and kills the prize poodle and your GL has lapsed, who gets sued and who is repsponsible? If you get half done and your guys quit and your get frustrated and quit, can the builder finish the job and refuse to pay you your full price, half price or nothing? I've done some very large custom frames on handshakes. I got paid. No one got sued. We were lucky. The builder legally didn't have to pay me a nickel. Right now, we are constructing a house that ultimately will be on the market for close to 700k. Every body involved in this has a lot invested in it and we would be negligent for not doing everything necessary to protect their interests. The last thing we want is to slow down the process and end up in litigation because someone got hurt or did something stupid and we find out that their paperwork and insurance was faulty. If we were talking about tying up only 5k for a couple of months, I could see your point about "what's the big deal". The bigger the project, the more important the paperwork...wouldn't you agree? Aren't we a paperwork society anymore? Isn't that what a builder really is nowadays? Builders shuffle paper. Carpenters build houses. Fifty years ago, those two terms were synonomous. Today, due to legislation, they are two entirely different professions. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thats alot of what if's. I don't operate on what if's, give myself an ulcer with all that.
Not really neccessary in my opinion.
A contract needs to be signed between the two parties. I actually make builders sign a promissary note now. Making them personally responsible for the debt that will be due at the end of the project, not their business.
I hand over a current insurance form with my liablility and comp to the builder, stating the values of each clearly on that sheet. It is their choice to verify the information or not. If they don't then it's their fault.
And yes builders and carpenters are two different people now, thats why these problems occur. One guy sells the job to the HO and then doesn't see it again. THey sub it all out, and then the issues start.
If a builder has to pick up a few butts for the money he is "earning" so what. He is taking money off the top of each sub so that should cover the little BS that falls through the cracks. Cry me a river man, they need to get off their lazy butt and get on the job.
If the builder doesn't want to do anything, find another career. This ain't a spectator sport.
This is a bad topic for me, for way too long I have dealt with do nothing builders, I have to deal with the customers because they are no where to be found. THats why I charge a premium for the hands off approach if thats the way they operate.
Try keeping the same subs for each job too, that will help resolve alot of the paperwork that builders encounter. Stop shopping around to sugar coat their pockets, all they are doing is making their job harder. The subs will know that you want the job clean, not to drop a duece in the bathroom. That kind of stuff.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/12/2008 5:29 pm ET by MattSwanger
"If a builder has to pick up a few butts for the money he is "earning" so what. He is taking money off the top of each sub so that should cover the little BS that falls through the cracks. Cry me a river man, they need to get off their lazy butt and get on the job."I don't know what kind of people you work for, but I for one, do not fall into that category. Being a GC in my mind means I am the final word of responsibility on the job and if I'm not there with tools in hand engaged in something, at least I am there to ensure the job runs smoothly each day. That's what I get my pay for. I'd be damned if I expect a sub to run a job or a project.A builder like what you describe shouldn't get any subs. Period.
GB I have worked for alot of them, all they really are is investors.
They have money or resources and get work. Thats it. No tools, not going to work at all.
I get hired by them as the lead guy, start to finish I deal with the job most of the time.
Rarely I am a just a sub, I don't get in and get out of jobs. Once I get there I setup for awhile. And I charge for it, they make their money without doing much, selling the job, call me and some subs then all they do is cash checks. Their draw paperwork is all standardized to the point where they check off what they are charging for and print it out.
I have respect for involved GC's, but I haven't got to deal with one yet.
Woods favorite carpenter
Geez Marie, guess I'm pretty naive.
Count your blessings. It sounds like your GCs have decided to operate as a lead carpenter style and they are paying you for that role. You haven't had to deal with involved GC's yet but when you do, you'll find out that many of them SHOULD NOt be making the on site decisions! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
These guys are like that, shouldn't make on site decisions. But they know that for the most part.
One didn't and 2k in framing change orders later he got the point.
Another took it upon himself to do the tile work in a house, it has to be torn out and redone. He mixed up a 5 gallon bucket of thinset, it started getting hard so he kept adding water not wanting to throw the thinset out.
Thinset didn't bond to the tile and 70% of them are loose. Just walking across them they crack or break. Demo won't be hard.
Woods favorite carpenter
That's funny! You know exactly what I am talking bout then! Matt, I know you are the type of sub contractor that we are looking for here in Austin. There are others like you that have great intentions but don't understand that there are paperwork realities and behaviors that might make them more appealing as a member of our "Advanced Team". For instance, I know great carpenters that don't think there is anything wrong with setting a tool down onto a new countertop. They are careful enough to set it down without scratching. No harm, no foul right? What happens if the delivery person brings in a box of pizza and sets it down on top of a tool and slightly slides it, scratching the top? Who is responsible for the $1500? Who is going to explain the delay to the homeowner? By creating a set of standards and making them known, it sets a stage for an easier transition from organized chaos to a relatively smooth running job site. I'm seeking a wide range of term sheets and intend to use them as necessary as we move forward in our GC endeavor here in Texas. Around here, the good ole boys think a verbal offer is the same as writing in stone. I also have one asking to get paid immediately AND HE HASN'T STARTED THE JOB YET! Almost every one of them have asked for unreasonable up front contract terms and none of them have presented a comprehensive proposal that contains all the basics needed for us to make an intelligent decision. A vague agreement works fine when there is an established relationship built upon several successful jobs or if the parties have known each other for years. In my case, we are stranger to each other and I don't want to have to get into a shouting match on the jobsite because some yahoo, who is a sub of a sub of a sub is standing with horse manure on his boots on our new white carpets, telling me that a vacuum will easily clean it up! We are trying to position oursleves to build not only a small addition or single family home, but also a 40 story high rise. The good ole boy handshake just aint going to cut it.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 1/13/2008 11:43 am by Jim_Allen
In your case of being a stranger in strange land it makes sense I guess. You can't fly all your trusted subs from MI to Texas. So you have to start fresh with new ones.
I don't mean to sound bitter, I know where you guys are coming from. I get frustrated when one on my GC's gets out of his Cadilac Escalade in sport jacket to hand me yet another sheet of legal BS. They know by now that when the sh!t hits the fan I am there, I don't run from it. Thats why they hired me to begin with.
All they are doing is listening to their lawyer who deals with deadbeat contractors all day. So I am the devil to them, and have to reassure my GC's or customers they didn't hire a dog and pony show.
I deal with realities not what ifs. If my tool scratches the top, guess what? 2 seconds later you'll have cash in hand to replace it. Not a check, green money. I'll even call and order it. Even though you and I both know it was the Plumbers fault. :)
This happened recently, I installed a 8x10 garage door in a Sherwin Williams warehouse. I know I ordered an insulated door, but it didn't come that way. I gave the GC my order for the door and the number to a good friend at Overhead Door. I had to talk with the stores manager, my next door neighbor, and explain to him what had happened.
He asked what the insulation kit would cost and it was $300, I handed him $300 and apologized for the delay to get the insulation kit. (he had to pay COD).
Guess what? He called it even and later that day he walked back and talked to me, giving me another 5k in work there. Money doesn't mean alot to me Jim, a good finished job with everyone happy means more to me.
>>Matt, I know you are the type of sub contractor that we are looking for here in Austin. <<
Thanks for the compliment Jim, with MI circling the drain I may be looking for somewhere warmer in the years to come. Woods favorite carpenter
"If my tool scratches the top, guess what?"I don't doubt about your honesty. But, what if you laid it there, then it scratched the top and you didn't know it? Several days later, the prospective homeowner discovers the scratch and no one can connect the dots....no one knows that it was your tool and the pizza box?The laundry list of known terms attempts to pro actively deal with these types of scenarios. The tool on the top is just one small example. In the term sheet sent to me, the subcontractor agrees that he will get paid within ten days after submitting an invoice. That line items also solves one particular confusion. We all can change the terms and have them written in any way we want and when a GC hands you those sheets, you have the right to red ink any that you don't agree with and add whatever you think is necessary to satisfy yourself from your perspective. I'd love to operate on handshake but since I know that isn't working, I'm willing to try a different tact. I'm no paperwork freak myself but I can see how a detailed sheet will help me sort through the maze of subcontractors and find those that want to operate more like me. I also want indemnification if they are negligent in their duties as subs and employers. This paperwork is my only protection from that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You want the right subs Jim?
Setup a meeting with each potential sub at your office. Leave a wallet with $50 just outside the door and a Texas ID in it of you.
Don't mention it to them, let them bring it to you. Once the meeting is over and they still haven't said anything, on their way out the door. Say "thanks but no thanks and give me my wallet back."
This will get you the subs you want, weed out the ones you don't. Woods favorite carpenter
LOL! Send me that wallet with $50 and I'll risk YOUR cash. Here in Texas, none of them would walk in and all I'd see in the monitor was them running full tilt to their trucks!We've had quite a few laughs at some of the people offering to subcontract for us already. We had one guy in a family suv willing to haul 30 yards of rubbish in it! I want you to know that I have railed against paperwork much harder than you in my early days. I still hate it all but I also have to face up to the realities of our world today. There are many things we have to do to minimize our exposure and clearly written policies and terms are just one of the many components. It doesn't end there and although I agree in principle with the tone of your posts, in the end, I think you'll probably agree that clearly written policies aren't harmful to either party. We haven't decided exactly how to incorporate these terms..into the main agreement or as an attachement to the agreement. I think I prefer the attachement style. I'm not opposed to signing one year agreements that outline a basis for the subcontract agreement and refer to a work order/invoice means of setting the price for repetitive jobs. That's a system we've been a party to in the past and works well. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I agree with your line of thinking, you have to protect your investment and your customer.
I'm still a world away from that here, I am slowly protecting myself which I should have done a long time ago. Now that I have been burned by alot of scumbag contractors I have a good policy in place now. The promissary note is it.
It outlines when I will be paid, if nonpayment occurs then the GC will be paying my lawyer and repo man to collect the debt. With one 15k judgement last week for me,
I feel safer now under this policy. And I am sure this is where you are coming from. So I can understand and agree with that.
I wish you the best in this Jim, you don't have to protect my interests you have to protect yours. Once you get one typed up email it to me, I'd like to see it.
Woods favorite carpenter
I like your promissary note idea. I wouldn't sign one though to a small subcontractor but if I didn't and they walked, I'd understand why. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Why wouldn't you sign one?
Just like you I am trying to protect myself. This ensures that I am protected.
With todays businesses being setup as seperate entitys without any personal liablity contractors are doing what they want when they want, knowing when its all said and done they still have their cars house and personal belongings. All they is bankrupt the business, stat a new one and i am out of luck.
Now that I have leveled the field they aren't so quick to forget where their check book is. Woods favorite carpenter
"Why wouldn't you sign one?"Because I have a choice. If I sign, I negate one of the intentions of forming the LLC. With some vendors and lenders, I'm forced to sign. I'm exposed in that case if something goes wrong.I wouldn't sign any promisary note as long as I had a choice. In your case, you are offering carpentry services and you would be the only one asking for that particular document. I'm actually surprised that you are getting your gcs to sign. Congrats to you! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>> In your case, you are offering carpentry services and you would be the only one asking for that particular document. <<
I have been contacted by them, not the other way around.
I think in the last few years I have only contacted one GC. That worked out to a one house deal.
GC's are in alot better position than carpenter subs are. They pull the permits and can fire any carpenter as they feel fit including non payment. Not that way with electricians and plumbers. They pull their own permits and have to be paid that price either finishing the job or being bought out of it. At least thats the way it is here.
With this piece of paper it makes them think twice about weaseling out of any payment due. Remember I have been taken to the financial edge with alot of GC's in the last few years. The one for 15k, another for 10k, another for 2k, another at 3k.
Too many bankruptcys have forced me to change my ways, I am not that big to throw this money out. All of these guys bankrupted thier company and moved out of state. No recourse then. Until this..
Sorry for hijacking your thread, didn't mean for it to go this way.
Woods favorite carpenter
Don't worry about the hijack. It isn't a hijack because we are discussing the relative merits of using a term. I understand your concern about these guys. We've been burned too and it's frustrating. I wonder though...wouldn't it be the same amount of dollars to file the lawsuit to collect?Don't get me wrong...if you can get them to sign, do it. I just know I wouldn't sign one with a small contractor or sub. We had one sub who demanded too much money after rough HVAC and stated "not negotiable". His price was right and service was right but his terms left us hanging if he went to Mexico. We asked him to alter his terms and he refused. We found someone else to do the HVAC. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I wonder though...wouldn't it be the same amount of dollars to file the lawsuit to collect?
That's why I have a clause in my contracts about arbitration & they have to pay for attorney costs. court costs & MY costs if I have to chase them. I've been watching this thread for ideas on how to bolster my paper work/ trail for sub dealings.
Matt I understand alot of what you are saying but I'm with Jim (blue or whoever you are today :) ).
Consider this: I'm involved in a fight right now where the flooring guy totally screwed up a floor. It cost me a bundle. He leined the project for non payment and now I have subs that aren't getting paid from it because of his screw up and unwillingness to stand up & say I screwed up.
Why is this significant? This guy has been a freind for years, one of the ones who stood by me during my divorce. NOt every one responds the way you do or would expect them to, no matter how long you have worked with them. Now we have this nasty fight going on & I had no paper work about expectations in place. I will from now on.
Yes, I am blue in disguise.Thank you for that contribution. Once a dispute happens, it can affect the entire project. Good paperwork will allow the project to continue because a clause in there will explain the solutions. Obviously, we are dealing in legal issues and everyone should have their construction savvy lawyers review all these terms to make the contracts watertight. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
everyone should have their construction savvy lawyers review all these terms to make the contracts watertight.
That's one of the changes I made in the last year, I have a better attorney. I found one that not only is good at defending contractors but is also good at beating them. My thinking is if he knows how to win on that end he should have a good defensive mind set. He wrote a contract that works. The old one did ok but I feel better about this one.
I understand how liens hold up payments, a floor guy here in town used to throw a lien on 2 days after he was done. F-ing up my money.
But it isn't the rest of your subs fault, go get a loan and pay them. Do whatever you need to. Their bills don't go on hold because of your problems. They get late fees and interest because of it. So make it right by them. It's not their fault.
I carried large debts for GC's because of one reason or another, one as large as 20k. Not again. Thats made my life so much harder than it needs to be. I am a contractor not a bank. If they want me to carry part of the debt I charge accordingly.
Make sure you get lien waivers signed too, a sub got payed and stopped at the title office on his way home and put a lien on screwing everyone else. Woods favorite carpenter
"I understand how liens hold up payments, a floor guy here in town used to throw a lien on 2 days after he was done. F-ing up my money. "The term sheet supplied shows the payment terms to be 10 days after receipt of invoice. If the flooring guy filed a lien in two days, he might incur some liability if it improperly held up scheduled payments. There are laws against filing improper liens. Anyone can file one but they aren't all legal. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That would be a good term, good for theintersets of all subs on the job.
Most times I wouldn't see a framing check for a couple of weeks after I finished. The GC would lump me in with the roofing and siding. I waited patiently, not so with that flooring sub.
Then when he filed a lien a couple of weeks would turn into 2 months. Too long to wait for me. Woods favorite carpenter
>>I wonder though...wouldn't it be the same amount of dollars to file the lawsuit to collect?<<
No, in the note it clearly states that in the case of a default interest is compounded from the first day of the job. THen lawyer fees are also included. So if someone owed me 2k, by the time they are served papers and default in court it's 5k.
The contractor is "responsible for any and all fees that I may have to collect the debt." Lawyers, paper servers, even repo men if payment is not an option. Yes they pay them to take their stuff.
Wages can be garnished, if they are an employee I can only take 25% of their check. Most go out and sub again, then I can take 100% of their check. And I will, to let them feel how it is to work for free.
THe farther they try to run from the debt, the more it costs them. Gotta pay the summons server gas mileage and time.
This is a last resort, when final payment is due I don't pile on everything extra in hopes to do it. I am a very trustworthy individual who uses it only as needed.
GC's call me all the time begging can you fix this or do that no matter the cost. I did a few times on Saturdays. When I was done I handed them a bill for example $500 in one case, he hands me $150 and says thats all I am going to pay.
Another GC asked that I change a gluelam header for a 16' garage door from 7' to 8'. HO's wanted it changed. I said "$1,500 and it's a deal." He said "get it done". When it was done he hands me a check for $400 saying that he wasn't going to pay the rest.
Another HO I was billing out for $30 an hour, she signed the contract for it, even payed the first bill for it. Each document clearly had the hourly rate on it. When final payment was due she flipped out and said she could have someone do it for $12. Curved stairs for $12 an hour I got to meet that guy.
You see where I am coming from? Woods favorite carpenter
Yes I see.The term sheets that I'm interested in will also have the recovery costs identified and agreed upon. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Seems to me that you operate more as a project manager for the GC, which is what I'd stipulate in any dealings with someone like that.
c'mon , matt.... wether the builder is on the job or not.. we don't have to abide slobs
i smoked 2 packs of Luckies for 30 years.... but police call in the army taught me that i really didn't want to pick up anyone else's butts
if they can't field strip and take care of them without their mothers present, then they can smoke someplace else
it really galls my customers, most of whom are non-smokers, to see cigarette butts all over their property
smokers would have a much easier time if they didn't think the world is their ash trayMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree with you on "all over the job" Thats not acceptable to anyone. I believe I wrote a few. I clean mine up but at times find one or two stray ones.
I don't expect anyone to clean up after me, but if a little mess is there when the GC calls up I get a little ornry when he wants me to clean up what turns out to be the electricians or plumbers mess. When he could have done it faster than calling me.
Woods favorite carpenter
The cleaning bill for the electricians and plumbers would be covered in the terms sheets. You would bill for a minimum of $75. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's not the money thats always the issue.
Why would i want to drive all the way across town to sweep up the floor that he could have done in two minutes? Just economics. Lazyness I have very little tolerance for. Woods favorite carpenter
Okay, fair enough....but if you had your 4 hour minimum clause inforce for emergency service on other trades work, that two hour jaunt would pay handsomely. Mike, I'm glad to know that my hypno worked so effortlessly. I'm surprised at it's effectiveness. Seriously, I'm glad to know that you aren't actually smoking those lukies any more...I must mis read that post but I'm glad to know you'll be around a lot longer. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hourly minimum would be fine, even waiting til tommorrow when I am back on site would be great, I wouldn't even care then. They want it done now.
One thing I need to clarify, about the notes I have had signed.
I wait patiently to be paid, paperwork and draws take time. I wait a full year before I visit my Lawyer with the note.
I don't throw it in their face 5 minutes after I am done.
I carried the 20k note for almost 2 years before I visited my lawyer. Hoping he would come through.
It gives GC's a full year, before action is taken. Woods favorite carpenter
2 years?!!!Are you talking about liens or collecting on a promissary? If you can legally collect on a promissary after two years, I could see where that would be a very good thing to get signed by a sub. Mich has very strict timelines for liening and perfecting the liens. You've peaked my interest. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Promissary notes is what I am talking about. Liens fall off the table after 6 months.
Once that note is signed its good as gold man. Once you get a default judgement you have 10 years to collect. They always default, what defense do they have?
Liens affect the HO's in ways that I don't like. Me and the GC have an issue and we will handle it. Here is your new house.
Woods favorite carpenter
"They always default, what defense do they have? "They could argue non performance on your part. They could say they sent in people to do repairs to your work. They could say you promised more work for less pay. I don't know....I like your idea. I know several builders who would have signed but the vast majority of builders that I dealt with would have just laughed at the idea. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>>I like your idea. I know several builders who would have signed but the vast majority of builders that I dealt with would have just laughed at the idea.<<
Let them laugh, it's alot better agreement than a contract. Something happens I don't file a lien and their customer is left alone. It's handled between the two people who signed it and their lawyers. It's an agreement that protects everyone involved including HO's.
I have them sign it personally, no mention of their business. It becomes more like a loan then.
I met with my lawyer asking what my options were after two years had passed,
He said "nothing it's been too long."
I handed him the note and his eyes lit up after he read it, simple and to the point. He loved it. He started the paperwork after the set date on the note was up, because it was two weeks before the date.
Like I said this isn't something I look forward to doing, but it's bulletproof. It makes all the BS to get my money worth it.
I have posted many, many times about charging to carry debt for a GC. Whether it's for 6 months or a year or even two years. This is how, interest is compounded, all fees included, almost pain free for everyone.
I'd rather get paid and move on like normal, but this is how I protect myself in a place where nothing is certain. As you know nothing is carved in stone here.
I should have folded a long time ago, with all the money owed to me. I barely scraped by staying busy and now the notes are due and I find myself breathing easy again. My business owes no one nothing, everyone has been paid on time everytime.
If I can figure out how to email you a copy of a note I would. Give me a little time and let me see what I can do. Woods favorite carpenter
If you fax it to 512 233 0818, it'll get here. I like the concept and we'll incorporate the idea when we sub. I can scan it and PDF it once I get it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'll fax it over to you when I get a chance, the old ladys cat ate alot of the wiring to the printer and fax so I'll do it from a friends place.
It will be a copy of one I already got a judgement on, the pending ones are the same. Woods favorite carpenter
hey, Matt... while you're faxing one to Jim.... can you add me
401 423 2185..
this is a cool idea.. i hate the lien procedure
and now, in Rhode Island, we have to send a certified letter to every customer that they CAN be liened by suppliers & subs... no certified letter receipt on file , no lienMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This is a great idea Mike. I dreamt it up not knowing it would be possible to apply to building. My lawyer loves it.
I don't think I was coming across right in the beginning of describing it.
So I clarified a little. Hopefully you guys get a better handle on it now.
It protects me to the best of my abilities. HO are left out of disputes between GC's and myself. People are actually held accountable with it.
I hate liens, they cost more than they are worth most times. This way all your costs are covered, I mean all of them. Interest can be included in the note.
Once I get my lawyer started on it I don't hardly have to do a thing. The signer of the note has no real defense. At least not one that will stand up in court, and the more they fight it the more it costs them in the end.
I'll fax them out in the next few days. Been pretty busy lately. Woods favorite carpenter
Faxed your copy out today as well.
If you didn't get it let me know. Woods favorite carpenter
got it... thanks !.... put it in my Business Plan binderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You and the GC agree on a worst case scenario time. If something happens I will have my money by.........
It gives them all the time in the world.
I could care less because interest is compounding, I'll get it one way or another.
Thats why I like them, it gives the GC all the time in the world, but I am still covered no matter what.
Paperwork in the title company has to get done so 99% of the time this isn't an issue. I get paid and called later for other jobs by them. It's the GC's that forge lien waivers and pocket the money I am protecting myself from. Woods favorite carpenter
Excellent tip Matt. I'll be looking to get the note signed if we sub anywhere. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Mike!!!!! YOu can quit today and start healing your lungs immediately. I'll hypnotize you....you are feeling sleepy..... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
i quit 15 years ago...... so your hypnotherapy musta workedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i "call " myself a builder.. but i'm really a contractor
and contractors execute contracts
like you said......
most of that stuff you don't need ....... unless you need itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good methods here.
As a GC you MUST give subcontractors a list of expectations.
They should include
Billing policies
Bathroom facility usage (can we use the clients bathroon or are we to use a Porta Potty)
Parking
Trash responsibility
Hours of operation
Contact #'s
Emergency #'s
Smoking policies
Music volumeWe usually have a precon with all of our subs where we give them a copy of these items. We go over each one & discuss them for clarity. At the end, both parties sign the doc and everyone is on the same page. For any GC who does not do this sort of Precon, you are just letting the monkeys roam at will. And you are the biggest Baboon in the zoo.
I agree tcleve.As a sub, I prefer to work with Builders or GC's tha are proactive and on top of things. In the long run, it makes it easier for every sub. These types of GCs get the best price becuase their organizational skills optimize the job for us and allows us to optimize our efforts: get in and get out and get it right the first time!Got any terms sheets to share? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
hey grant..... can you send me one too ?
mfsmith1 AT cox.netMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
1. Clean up after yourself or expect a $25/hour backcharge for our having to clean up your mess.
2. Use porta-potty provided, not customer's bathrooms
3. No discussion of changes directly with customers, no negotiating for changes or calling out prices directly to customers - all goes to me.
4. No swearing inside customer's house or on their property, when they are around (obviously we all swear, but I think my intention is pretty clear when I explain it).
5. Cigarette smoking outside areas only and no butts on customer's property.
6. Drunkness or intoxication or other disrputive, non professional behavior will cause removal from job, back charge for costs of finding replacement/delay of project as a result.
7. Use the company dumpster or take your trash with you.
8. Pick up your tools and materials everyday and leave them in a spot out of foot traffic areas, work safe, have consideration for customers and others on the site.
9. Inform GC at least 24 hours ahead for all large material deliveries in order locate proper area for storage and to coordinate handling, etc.
10. Clear designation as to what areas of the customer's property sub and employees are expected to work in -- outside and inside when applicable.
I've never had anyone yet who argued with me about these terms, save for one A-hole that actually never showed up to work when he said he would, so it was no great loss apparently.
I agree.If a subcontractor thinks that these are arguable terms, they probably don't understand that they operate in a service industry. I think the mere fact that they would argue would be enough for me to eliminate them from my vendor list. Life is already too hard and if I have to go around and pick up their cigarette butts, or beg them not to discuss money issues directly with the homeowners...I dont need them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Faxed that out to you today. Hopefully you got it.
I didn't white-out the names of the guilty.
Woods favorite carpenter
LOL!F em. I hate guys that don't pay. I'll get it later tonite when the office forards it to me. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
My thoughts exactly.
If he didn't want that reputation maybe he should have paid his bills on time.
THat note was signed for a seond time, I gave him an extension to catch up. He had a spec house that he was trying to sell and pay me off with some of the proceeds.
I told him a 300k spec in Michigan was a bad idea when I framed it for him. Two years later it still sits empty. Woods favorite carpenter
Did that fax make it to you?
I had to try twice before it got sent successfully. Woods favorite carpenter
No, I didn't get it yet. We had a meeting there yesterday and nothing was said about it. It's an efax and they normally just automatically forward it to me but they might have not known it was directed to me unless you put my "real" name on it. The number is 512 233 0818. Did I give you the wrong number maybe? She might not have had time to forward it yet. I'll check with them later today. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I didn't put your name on it, I was in a rush.
You gave me the right number, so check into it. If not I'll fax it another time this week. Woods favorite carpenter
Thanks Matt. They'll have it but they won't know why/how it got there. I'll get it forwarded today. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
No problem Jim, have any questions I'll try to answer them.
The copy you got didn't have interest included in the agreement, make sure that you have that included as well.
Have your lawyer draw you up a copy if you are wanting to use it. Woods favorite carpenter