After receiving the quotes on a granite countertop my wife and I determined it was clearly out of our price range and would settle for an alterative. We told this to the contractor who has done a lot of work for our family in the past and is trust worthy. He said he would do the job at cost for us. We agreed as it was a 1/3 of the quote price. Two of the three pieces of counter top were under measured and cut with fault lying with the contractor. I received the bill and it is 60% over the bid price, clearly the result of his mistake. On one hand the bill is still less then the true value of the counter top, but on the other hand we would not have agreed to do it for the final price on the bill. If I don’t pay it he will be eating that cost. The other issue, although some what related is the workmanship is not great. From a contractors perspective, what is a fair way to deal with this? <!—-><!—-><!—->
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Why didn't you have him quote the job initially?
JT
There was two quotes
There was the original quote that I said was to expensive. He followed up with a second quote which was at cost. The bill came in 60% higher then the second quote.
I think you should pay him. He took a chance and did it for cost for you but it turned out bad.
I would pay him. This guy bent over backwards for you and you should do the same.
You have your granite countertop don't you?
Was the first quote from a different contractor, or why was the second one so much lower?
If the second price was a fixed price in writing, then you should expect to pay the agreed price. Was there some clause in the contract that allowed him to raise the price due to unforseen problems?
How bad are the quality issues? Exactly what problems are you seeing? Do you have a picture you can post.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Being strict about it.
The price quoted is the price you pay. i.e. 3 tops total $3000
The bill you got i.e. 3 tops total $4800. If this includes the charge for the mistakes made by the person placing the order and not you. Then pay the $3000. If your contractor told you upfront he messed up then you could be nice and split the deference with him. How good the tops are often comes down to price cause that equals time you can spend on the job. Seams can be improved, they are never invisible.
Granite top are normaly templated because they are labor intensive, this tends to reduce mistakes.
Now you know why the professionals charge more.
Pay the bill.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
The revised final price, done at his cost, is one third of the original plus sixty percent. If my math is correct that's one half of the original price.
You say that this man is a trusted contractor who has done work for your family in the past. That being the case, it would seem to me that you should just pay the bill.
When I do a favor for a good client or a friend, allowing them to pay my cost for materials and basic labor for installation I expect them to hold up their end, if and when additional material or labor is required.
I'm a 'humble DIY', hardly ever reply to this type business issue; but it strikes a nerve -- as occasionaly have done work for church or neighbors for only cost of materials.
After I saved a former church over $100K, there were still some folks bitch and complain (DOES THIS SOUND LIKE YOU MARK??) about just colors, of all things, and wanted stuff repainted - told the person(s) to repaint it themselves and after a couple more complaints left that church.
As for neighbors, if after I fixed their A/C one of them had told me he could have gotten R22 for $6.20/# off the internet vs. my (higher) cost and only wanted to re-imburse me that amount (big deal, only be about $15), it would still be the absolute last time I ever did that neighbor any favors. My neighbors, thankfully, just say thanks* and are only to happy to have saved $1k on an A/C recharge.
Pay your guy with no complaint (you probably should send him a gift with a thank you card vs. bitch and complain) or never expect to get any work from him again.
*heck, the one neighbor after I fixed his A/C one hot summer day when he could not get any pro to show, still drops off a nice bottle of wine every time it gets warm out!
Edited 7/14/2008 5:02 pm ET by junkhound
Can you explain the situation a bit more, as I think we're all a bit confused.
Who gave you the original bid, for 3X your budget, the contractor who did it for you, or somebody else? Because if it was the contractor, it seems odd that he would lower his price.
From 'reading the tealeaves', this is my guess as to the story - please fill in, if this is off.
You hired a general contractor to do your kitchen. When it came time for the countertops, you got a bid from a granite sub-contractor - but the bid was more than your budget. Your contractor, trying to help you out, said that he could do it - at cost - for 1/3 the price of the granite person.
While doing the granite, your contractor messed up (since he's not a granite contractor) so the costs went up by 60%. The cost increase was related to the screw-up, correct? But, everything is now fixed, correct? So, you ended up with the granite countertop you really wanted, at half the cost someone else wanted to charge you, but 60% more than you expected to pay.
If that's the story, I'd pay him. He was trying to do you a favor, and messed up. Why should he eat the extra cost if he wasn't making any money to begin with?
Key question, if he had told you the counterop would cost what it eventually cost (60% more than his bid - half the original bid) would you have done it? If so, the answer is clear - pay him. If not, it's a tougher call.
Simmer “junkhound†you’ve missed the point, my post is a question to seek what is fair and not a complaint. <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
To clarify for those who are interested:<!----><!---->
- There was only one contractor who provided me the two quotes.<!----><!---->
- he was the granite sub contractor.<!----><!---->
- workmanship issue is really a separate situation to this subject<!----><!---->
- The sub contractor miss measured on his template – don’t ask how you do that.<!----><!---->
- I assume the increased price is from the mistake.<!----><!---->
- CeltsFan’s final question sums up the challenge of the situation – The 5K quote was still above our budget, but we were willing to invest. 5K was pushing it and 9K is way over – no I would not have invested if I knew the final price. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
There will not be a conclusive answer that comes out of this form, but now know what I will be doing because of it. Thanks to all those who responded. Junkhound - I hope you recover from the pain my question has caused you.<!----><!---->
I believe I would pay that bill if after a couple of questions, the contractor leveled with me and gave me a truthful answer. Even if the answer was that it was his mistake. BUT, I would want that extra granite that I just paid for. Assuming that that is where the quote went wrong.
If I understand you correctly, you now have properly fit counter top which is valued at almost twice the price you're being asked to pay for it.
Although it may pain you to have to pay for a someone else's error, you got the job at cost and now have a potential profit on that investment from the resale of your home.
In my opinion you should pay up without complaint.
If I understand you correctly, you now have properly fit counter top which is valued at almost twice the price you're being asked to pay for it.
I'm just trying to follow this but I'm not reading it the same as you. I read it that his counter tops dont fit well.
I'm so confused!
Doug
I'm just trying to follow this but I'm not reading it the same as you. I read it that his counter tops dont fit well.
From OP's post 107006.13 :
- The sub contractor miss measured on his template – don’t ask how you do that.<!----><!---->
- I assume the increased price is from the mistake.
And I'm assuming that the second sentence means that the mistake was corrected, thus the sixty percent increase to the second bid.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not there but I've been reading it differently? Seams to be a bit of ambiguity here.
Doug
I'm reading it the same way as you are Doug. Furthermore, I'm not thinking that the deal was anything more than a lower fixed cost bid. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Not to muddy the waters even more, but the quote of $9000 seems awfully high for granite countertops in a kitchen. What was the square footage? I know some people have humongous kitchens, but it doesn't sound like the OP is living in a mansion.
If the original quote was grossly above market, I don't feel as bad for the contractor.
Seams to be a bit of ambiguity here.
True but that's why I worded my reply so that it would be the first thing for the OP to confirm or deny, if he chose to reply.
HVC: "If I understand you correctly, you now have properly fit counter top which is valued at almost twice the price you're being asked to pay for it."
"If I understand you correctly, you now have properly fit counter top which is valued at almost twice the price you're being asked to pay for it."No one knows VALUE is. He might have initially been quoted twice what he ended up being billed for. If had the value FOR HIM of the initial quote then he would have gotten that." now have a potential profit on that investment from the resale of your home. "Very unlikely. First you have no idea of when or if he might want to ever sell his house.And most studies of home improvements show 60-80% return on investment..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
No one knows VALUE is. He might have initially been quoted twice what he ended up being billed for.
Facts taken from all the OP's posts:
He has said that the first bid was $9K and that he had two other similar bids. From that I deduce that the $9K price is the true value of the job. He's being asked to pay $5K for it.
Whatever potential profit there is for the homeowner from this nice improvement, it's money that he doesn't have to share with the contractor when he sells his home.
No VALUE is what a willing buyer and willing seller agree to.He was not willing to buy it at the orginal price. Thus it did not have that VALUE to the HO.You could have a tree fall on your neigbors Pinto that is rusted out and has not run for 10 years. And he claims that it has a value of $15,000 because that is what he offered for sale at. But no one was buying.Just as the HO did not buy the $9,000 countertop..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
workmanship issue is really a separate situation to this subject"<!----><!---->
""- The sub contractor miss measured on his template – don’t ask how you do that"
Mark,
You can't "miss measure", that's why you build a template, then take the template to the fabricator to place on the slab you want and duplicate it on the slab. There is no measurement involved. Damage to the template in transport? Maybe. Even so, something doesn't sound right to me.
WSJ
This is why you should never ever never ever work at cost!
You take a job to make no money, you get sloppy- cause your doing it for free. Shid happens then your paying to have the benifit of getting to work for free.
The most unhappy clients I ever have are the ones where I try to make it fit there budget.
To th OP, you already blew it. You thought you could get a deal when you really can only get what you pay for. If you want to be mean just pay the bill, then the dumbazz will probably work for you at cost again. If you want to do him a favor, only pay the quoted price- he won't make the mistake again.
I would not pay the bill at all for substandard work. If the counter was supposed to be 60" long and fit tight to both walls and it comes out 58" long and there is no reasonable solution, then the guy will have to start over.
He also will have to honor his bill without the 60% upcharge unless you've requested a change, in writing, that added to the cost.
Now, there is always two sides to every story. Tell us more. Are you being picky? Does the contractor have a different opinion and thinks it's a good installation?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
In response to Jim Allen,
it was very evident to everyone that 2 of the 3 sections wouldn't fit - 6 plus inches off.
6" too short?
I would be leery if the same contractor who gave me the initial bid came back and offered the same thing at 1/3 the cost. Red flags would go up. Nobody works for free, so where did the rest of the money go? he had top be cuttingsomething to reduce the cost that much."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
This is a tough one, senor.
First the main question: Do you want to have this man help you in the future? If you stiff him, think of the trouble of finding someone else as reliable as this man.
You think that's easy? Try it.
I see the point that the contractor should honor his bid.
I had a situation a bit similar. In 1985 I gave a labor only bid to an owner-builder for the framing of some interior walls. This was an "experimental" Montana solar home with a paver brick floor over tamped sand. I never imagined that the floor level might vary by over 2". I bid. I bit the big one. I told the owner the situation and that I would honor my bid, no questions asked now. He said "nobody works for nothing on my house" and paid me to cover the additional hours.
I didn't even have an ongoing relationship with that guy.
I still revere his character.
your between a rock and hard spot. he said he would do it at cost,you said ok. now if this was a 50.00 screwup ok,you pay it and go on.
everyone here is saying pay him, if you don't have the money for a extra 4k ,i would just have to sit down and tell him that.see if you can work something out,but push comes to shove i would give him a extra 500 or 750 and call it good.
heres where i come up with that figure,everybody thinks granite is made out of gold or something, go to a granite suppiler and price a 5'x 10' slab. you will be shocked at how cheap it is. almost all of the common granites can be bought from400-1000 per slab,and that covers about 50-60 sf. so if he had to buy another slab pay for it,he eats the labor for mis measuring.
i have a little experence with something similar, i had a pc disenagrate while it was being cut on a waterjet,they guy called me feeling bad ,i asked him if he could use it for fill in his driveway and laughed and told him i would go get another one.this happens when your trying to save money,thats why the granite guys are high,if it screws up no problem their coverd. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Some good questions on previous posts have me wondering if the original quote was way over stated and the second quote just looked really good. I have 73 sq ft of counter, made up of three slabs with a kitchen sink (above mount) and stove top cut on site. What was supplied was marble using a 3/4" plywood underlay covered with approximately 1/2 to 3/4 stone top. Internet research is telling me stone count tops range in price between $50 to $100 installed. I live in an out of the way location, which requires an additional 25% for most product installs. Basic calculation tells me the top end counter top should cost in the $9,125 range (73 sq ft * $125 per sq ft = $9,125). His original quote was for $5000 and is now $8,000.<!----><!----><!---->
Based on the information I have provided, is my estimated maximum prices of $9,125 reasonable? <!----><!---->
In your effort to clear things up, you just managed to muddy the waters even more LOL!What was the exact figure of the very first quote? What was the revised quote?What is the final bill?Is the job done correctly now? Or, is there a 6" gap somewhere? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Now, if I understand correctly:
1) Original quote was for $15,000
2) Revised quote was for $5,000
3) Final bill was for $8,000
Question 1: Is that correct?
Question 2: What kind of granite did you get (usually they are priced in 5 steps - A - E) The A's can be in the $50 / foot range and the E up towards $100. I'm sure there is granite out there that is $200 / square, but it's not stuff I've ever looked at.
The first quote seems unbelievable - but maybe you were getting some very rare piece of stone.
"The first quote seems unbelievable"I never picked up on the 15k figure. I don't know how you figured that. But, it also wouldn't surprise me. Sometimes, the small time operators think they have a sucker on the line and double and triple the quote. I was quoted 28k for some simple foundation and slab work that we eventually paid 4 or 5k for. Then, these type of contractors come back with their "I'll do it at cost" type quotes. And, sometimes their "cost" includes their payments for their 4 wheel toys, insurance payment on their double wides and a few toots of blow for the weekend too. Working for "cost" is kind of like the invoice on a new car...it's a meaningless statement. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Working for "cost" is kind of like the invoice on a new car...it's a meaningless statement."
Not if he said cost and gave them a #. If he screwed up and mis-measured it sounds like he has a set of tops to sell to someone else.
"Not if he said cost and gave them a #. If he screwed up and mis-measured it sounds like he has a set of tops to sell to someone else."Yes, that's what I'm thinking too. Often, they'll tell you they are working at cost when in fact the price reflects full "profit" whatever that means. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
the old "cost Plus " quandry
define "cost"
anyways.. back to the OP.... as far as heroes & villains go..
hard tellin, not knowinMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I thought the OP said the "new quote" was 1/3 of the original, and that the new quote was $5,000. So, if my math is correct, the original quote would be $15,000.
I'm constantly amazed how different quotes can be. Sometimes, the difference lies with the scope of the sub. One person thinks a new sink requires demoing half the house for a new vent pipe, while the other person thinks you can just tie it into an existing pipe. That kind of difference is understandable (to a degree).
But, I've seen many times where the different quotes different by 3 or 4 times for the exact same work - and we're not talking about licensed vs. unlicensed, or granite vs. laminate, etc. Just some guys have an established price point, and have all the business they need, so they are lucky enough to be able to charge 3X what everyone else does.
The original quote was $15K. We said no, way out of our budget. He called me up and told me he could do it for $5k. bill came in at $8K.
The stone is 3/4 Bianca Carerra Marble. 72 sq ft. I don't know the grade of this stone.
Marble? 40 posts and everyone thinks you are using granite. Marble countertops in a kitchen is not a good idea. Too delicate.
How can you go with a contractor that knocks of 2/3 of his original quote?
If he said he would do it for cost what do you think that meant?
What was the other 10k for then, overhead and profit?
Ask him what the extra 3k is for. Then write him a check for 5k and tell him to get ####! He tried to rip you off once and you said no, now you get to screw him. This guy sounds like a loser tryin to rip you off twice. Pay him the contracted price. I dont think theres an AngiesList for bad homeowners yet so you should be in the clear.
That baffles me. 10k off. What a jerk.
A significant cost in stone countertops can be the edge detailing. Not 10k of course. Did the contractor substitute a cheaper detail as part of the cost savings? Any other changes to make the job more affordable?John
Edited 7/16/2008 9:58 pm ET by JohnCujie
"He tried to rip you off once and you said no,"
on a completely different subject ...
U are 100% wrong.
there's no such thing as "rip off" ... when some offers a price to do a task.
just because that guy may value his time more than you value yours ...
does not mean there is any "rip off".
just a higher price.
which ... the potential customer is always free to say No Thanks.
your opinion of someone elses quoted price ... is meaningless.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff, I value your opinion.
However, if the guy was willing to cut 10k off of his price then initially he was trying to pull a fast one on the HO.
"Ill do it for 15k! Oh, thats too high? Ok , Ill cut you a deal, I can do it for 5."
How do you justify that?
He could charge 30k and I'd be fine with that but if thats his price then stick to it.
still not a rip off.
shaky and questionable ... sure.
but throwing out a number and hoping it sticks ain't ripping anyone off.
changing said "bid" to a higher amount after it's installed ... ripping off and stealing.
I'm still thinking there's a third side to the story here ...
but ... stranger things have happened and this might be exactly how it went down.
maybe the original poster is the worlds best haggler!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I think theres still more to the story too. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'd pay what what he quoted you... the 5k...
and this is why....
ur not the expert he is... he's the one selling it... and he wasn't doing it for free ie: no profit... like a guy once told me
"if he's selling it to you at cost... he's buy'n it below cost"
not be'n a prick here... but from hearing just your side of it... it just sounds wrong on his part... he knew your deal and what you could afford... period...
now... there are many times i have paid someone above their quoted price because things happen that no one could foresee and i always want people to profit working for me... it might be less profit than expected but if it's a screw up I'll make sure they didn't PAY to work for me... they can stay home and lose money...
friend of mine (kinda friend) has a transmission shop... quotes me a price on a clutch and throw out bearing on a truck... so i buy the truck knowing the price to fix it... and have already sold the truck to a guy who does some work for me at zero profit to me... except that this guy will now have a good truck so he'll show up ... go to pick up truck and dude tells me... "wow that was alot more work than expected and the parts cost more than i'd thought"... and wants $300 more... (600 to 900) hmmm i hate to screw him but i'm not in the transmission biz... i thought the $600 was high but he said things were slow so i didn't shop it just told him to do it.... think'n i was toss'n him a bone in time of need... i ck internet for parts prices... and can see how he could have $250 in parts on the high side... have no idea what his labor costs are... but he only had the truck for one day... and pretty sure no one in his shop makes $350 a day.... i tell him ... i wouldn't have bought the truck if i knew it would cost $900 to fix... and offer to split the difference $150 more... he agrees... I still feel screwed and will never use him again...
I'm guess'n you will never use this guy again anyway... so unless he has a damn good reason... i'd say pay the 5k and feel like ####.... or pay the 8 k and feel like you got screwed...
I really don't get all these guys say'n "just pay the guy" believe'n the guy was working for free from the jump.... i don't and wouldn't.... I'd want to see every invoice he had on the job before i'd believe it... only then would i think about pay'n more...
p
i think 5k is full retail with a midprice garnite and above mount sink,no deal there,now he's going to double retail you because he has some extra pcs at his shop that don't fit.if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Unless you can give some reasons for why he's asking for more money (without assuming it was because of mis-measuring), I wouldn't pay him more than you agreed to. But I also wouldn't look at a bill with a 60% increase and not ask why.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Edited 7/15/2008 4:00 pm ET by JFink