I’m semi-new to contracting and have a few questions for seasoned pros which I hope aren’t too stupid. Hopefully you guys will be easy on me. Here goes:
Instead of paying myself weekly, I’ve just taken draws from the business to pay for my personal bills (i.e. mortgage, food, etc.) out of owner’s equity (draws). My questions relates to how Quickbooks figures my taxable income. I have bought tools, equipment for the company and used credit cards to pay for them. If I expense those items, I lower my taxable income lower than the amount that I’ve drawn out from owner’s equity. In other words, although total revenue is $100,000, after expenses, and deductions, taxable income is around $20,000, but owner’s draws for the year were $25,000. Does Quickbooks know to figure in what I’ve drawn out for personal reasons from the company, and to make sure I’ve paid enough to medicare/social security. If you consistently spend more than you profit, and live off of credit, do you still pay taxes.
This has brought up several other questions:
If I buy a large asset (e.g. truck) that can be expensed immediately (179 deduction) and pay for it with a credit card, and this eliminates profit for the year, do I still have to pay social security on any money drawn from the company?
In other words, when I go to figure my taxes, has Quickbooks taken Owner’s Draws into consideration as taxable income, or do you pay taxable income only if you show a profit?
Theoretically, couldn’t you grow your business by consistently lowering all profits by buying new stuff with loans, and then paying those loans off with income from tax free investments (i.e. after two years, there’s no tax on your primary home. ) Couldn’t you avoid payroll taxes altogether, by living off of loans for two years at a time, and then selling your house for a profit, and then paying of the loans with the tax free dollars.
Shoot with that in mind, couldn’t you just live off the future equity of your house, through an equity line. As long as you’re a remodeling contactor and can improve the house and it’s value, theoretically, you could get around paying taxes all together. Am I missing something…
I know I probably look stupid, but please have mercy on me and don’t destroy me verbally, I honestly want to know…
(A remodeler I know bought a house for $950,000, put $150,000 into it, and then sold it two years later for $1.6 million. Does that mean they made $500,000 tax free?)
Edited 7/9/2005 9:01 pm ET by Coopie
Replies
coopie.... you are going to file a standard itemized 1040.. your Schedule C is going to determine how much your adjusted income is
that is what you are going to pay income tax and social security tax on.. it makes no difference how much you "draw" or don't draw.. as long as your expenses are legitimate BUSINESS expenses.. then what is left over is your income
that said... i never made any serious money until i started treating my business as a business... and for me that meant incoporating ( S- corp)
and paying myself as an employee..
as long as i was comingling funds as a sole proprietor and putting money in and taking money out it was easier not to price my work for a profit
get a hold of a Schedule C and start looking at how your business will treat expenses as the IRS will accept them
Dear Mike,
Thanks for the post and the info, and for not making me feel like an idiot asking what's undoubtly a simply question.
What about living off of loans, and then just repaying the loans with tax free dollars from your primary home's profit? Can you take out a equity line, live off of that, and then repay it when you sell the house. If you use borrowed money to live on, wouldn't you save money by paying interest on the borrowed money(7%) versus taxes on money earned from a business (30%)? Besides that, if you turn houses that you have to pay capital gains on, do you pay payroll taxes on that money?
coop.. i'm not an accountant.. but i don't think you are liable for payroll tax on any money subject to capital gains..
if you are in an area with rising home prices.. you can probably make your scenario work.. just make sure you qualify for the exclusionary rule to avoid the capital gains..
but watch out.... what goes up must come down... don't be lulled into thinking it will always be this way... it won't..
also.. be careful that come hell or high water, you can service the loan.. and beware that some types of loans can be called, even if you are current in your payments..
if you are living on loan money with your home equity as collateral.... and they call the loan ( if the loan is callable ).. you have to liquidate , even at a loss..
in bad times .. there will be no buyers.. not at any price you will want to take..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That man is full of lust!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Mike,
Thanks! I'm curious because I've been killing myself trying to make client's happy, and a friend of mine just bought a $12,000 ghetto house, invested $8,000, and sold it three months later for $48,000. If capital gains is %15, he just made $23,800, I think, in three months in the ghetto, by himself! I'm working in Indian Hill (ritzy) and getting nitpicked and badgered for practically free work, and after the government nails me for worker's comp, liablity insurance, payroll taxes, and personal taxes, I'm scrapping to get by. (I realize exactly what you mean about raising prices. One of the best things that this site has helped me with the is the transition from thinking as a wage slave to a business owner. When I first started I charged $25/hr now it's $50, and I still think it isn't enough. I've also started tacking margin on instead of just markup...that helps, too.)
I'm thinking it'd be better to turn and burn houses quickly. I'm an apprentice plumber, and here in Cincinnati, if you own the house you're working on, you don't have to be a licensed plumber to pull the permit. You can do your own electric too. Get them inspected without having to sub the work, fix up the houses on my personal home depot (spending more than $299 and I don't pay on those materials for 6 mos. or a year!) As long as I can flip the houses, I think that money should be great. I've been waiting to do this because I wanted to sell my personal house, pay of my credit cards, and use the creme as capital to buy the houses. But houses around $10,000 I can just put on a credit card or pay literal cash!
Do you see any pitfalls? Everyone's got to have a place to live. I'd like to eventually do this in better neighborhoods, but less cost less risk. I'm not proud, I'm just sick of being beat up, tired, working 80 hrs a week, not appreciated by employees or clients, and starving....this seems like a dream come true...or is it a possible nightmare?
Edited 7/9/2005 10:58 pm ET by Coopie
Edited 7/9/2005 10:59 pm ET by Coopie
"thanks! I'm curious because I've been killing myself trying to make client's happy, and a friend of mine just bought a $12,000 ghetto house, invested $8,000, and sold it three months later for $48,000. If capital gains is %15, he just made $23,800, I think, in three months in the ghetto, by himself! "WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!First a sale of INVESTMENT PROPERTY in less than a year would be short term capital gains. That is taxed as ordinary income, but without having to pay self-employement taxes.But this is not INVESTMENT PROPERTY. It is the results of his trade (work). His business is improving property. It will be taxes exactly like him working on some one elses property. Including self-employement taxes.But still not a bad profit.The real problem is finding homes that can be bought that cheap and make a profit on. And also realize that there is a lot of risk envolved. Look back in the business folder around the first of the year there where several long threads on this.Back to your orginal question.You need to learn about taxes and accounting.Look for a class on starting a small business, small business accounting, or taxes for small business.They are often put on by high school adult ed or community colllege continuing education. Aslo check with the county extension service.And call the local SBA. I don't think that they put any classes on, but they probably have a list of who does.Another option is to do a consult with an accountant. Now is a good time to do it. Pay them for 2 to 3 hours time.
Edited 7/9/2005 11:48 pm ET by Bill Hartmann
In Canada you can sell your principal residence for whatever price or profit you can get and it is completely tax free. However my old classmate from University who is an accountant and did a stint with Revenue Canada (our IRS) suggested that I don't try it more than once every two years. Maybe your friend could buy a fixer upper North of the border!
Have a good day
Cliffy
In the US you have to have lived in the house as your principle residents for a total of 2 years out of the last 5 before you can take the excemption.And you are limited to only taking it every 2 years.
When does a property qualify as investment property? If one's sole source of income is improving houses, then it can't be an investment property. What if you sub the work to someone else?
BTW, thanks for the advice....:)
"When does a property qualify as investment property?"Without doing some research I would say that it "depends".But the basic concept of investment property is that you buy and hold it (and maybe collect rent or dividends). IE, that you don't "change it" by working on it.Now if he had then rented it out for 5 years after maying the improvements then would not be any questions about.I think that the it based on Intent. Clearly selling after 3 months shows the intent was not investment purpoese.
Of course there is risk!Another rule is that the risk takers are the money makers.A fiend in Colorado did what you are dreaming of. leveraged everything to buy three houses and start improving them. then an economic slowdown hit for a couple years and they could nbot sell them and could not afford the payments. They took bankruptcy and were fortunate enough to be able to keep the cheapest of the three to live in.BTWE, how is it that you can be ####plumbers apprentice and have your own business and employees?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've run a small remodeling company (myself and two employees) for the last five years. Of course, when I first made the transition, I hadn't read the E-Myth, and didn't charge enough. I'm just starting to charge close to what I should, and I still think it isn't enough. I have always enjoyed doing the plumbing aspect of remodeling, and one of my client's owns a plumbing school and runs a plumbing company's daily operations. I pay to go to school Monday nights, write what plumbing I perform on jobs (with the client pulling the permit or my friend for a fee), and after four years, will take the exam. I've already got a Bachelor's degree, so learning the book side of plumbing is easy. Having done plumbing in my projects for the last five years has been good for the practical side.
I'm interested in getting out of dealing with employees because they tend to take advantage; I did the same when I was an employee because I had no idea all the extra work employers do. Speaking of which, I'm off to work on bids (on Sunday night at that!)
Thanks again, Piffin!
The old saw - that the difference betwen an employee and an employer,is another thirty hours a week
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<<A remodeler I know bought a house for $950,000, put $150,000 into it, and then sold it two years later for $1.6 million. Does that mean they made $500,000 tax free?)>>>>
yes it does.... as long as he's married.. their combined exclusionary rule is $250K each or $500K for the couple.... as long as they owned the house and lived in the house for 2 out of the previous 5 years.. and they don't have to be the same 2 year period
all I can say is get an accountant.
I've paid a fraction of the money he's saved me over the years.
do it legal ... sleep well at night ... just have a pro follow the rules run it thru the system for you. U can still run everything thru quickbooks ... I just have my guy do the quartly and year end taxes ... but a good accountant should be able to advise you how to set things up during the year for the next tax season.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You have abou9t a dozen inter-related questions there.
First answer is to quit relying so much on QB and develope a relationship with a good accountant familiar with construction. My experience is that they will save you far more in taxes and aggravation than you spend paying for the sevices.
Second answer is a rule - never do anything for the primary purpose of avoiding taxes. Break this rule and you wil make some bad business decisions, not all of them, but enough to hurt yourself.
Third item - the house deal has nothing to do with the business you are in. Any person can sell a primary residence they have lived in for the two years preceding sale and poicket the profit tax free, up to a certain limit.
Fourth, it is not wise to take all the income reduction in one year by using fionancing. if you p[ocket the tax savings this year and are still paying out on th edebt three years hence, you place your self in jeapardy of paying and escalated tax bill that year, more than what it might be averaged over the three years.
SS - you pay on your income. if you are a large enough company, incorporated, you can save a couple thousand on SS.
Finally, get used to the idea of paying taxes. It is your due. What you avoid has to be shouldered by somebody else. Just plan it so you pay the legally allowed minimum. Mature, honest, citizens all do their part.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the tips. BTW, I don't mind paying taxes, I just wish the OLD Republicans (the one's who were truly fiscally CONSERVATIVE) were in charge, not the guys who go spend, spend, spend, and then give tax breaks to their rich buddies. I don't mind doing my part, I just wish the people in control were spending it wisely.
Edited 7/10/2005 8:25 pm ET by Coopie
I agree on the spend part, but I'm one of their poor friends who got tax breaks. And that exclusion of tax on the profit from selling your primary home - that was brought in by these new Republicans. All the way to what - something like 600K now
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Coopie,
first thing-----congratulations!!!! you are on the right track and asking some of the right questions
( you sound like me---about 10-12 years ago!)
1) it all revolves around schedule C----mastering that form and all it implies is what will make your plans work. Your Draw is irrelevant----the schedule C is what counts
2) section 179----is a great thing! I have used this myself 2 or 3 times--------BUT---it is only a smart move if you needed the truck in the first place----and would have bought in anyhow. running your own business means that your income may vary quite a bit from year to year-----in fact you may intentionally vary it from year to year by timing your work flow and your purchases. for the purposes of schedule C----you may use the 179 to turn a pretty good year into a rather mediocre year.
3) your plans RE : real estate-----this is where you are getting into muddy waters. all of your plans seem to assume the best case scenario-------that's dangerous.
I personally know several very talented individuals who have been in the sort of operations you are thinking about-----it worked well for a while------and then all the wheels fell off!
I have a VERY good friend in that business right now----in the trades all his life, long family history of work in the trades and real estate investment--------plus he has run his own real estate appraisal business for about 10-12 years----it is still very risky.
4) working in the ghetto takes a certain mind set. the figures you quoted don't seem particularly lucrative----particularly for a plumber!!!! Operating your plumbing business successfully is probably more lucrative long term than a turn and burn operation.
5)one last thing---to repeat----Schedule C is king.
It is within your power to controll how much you make----and more importantly WHEN you make it. You don't have that power as an employee----so use it wisely. that power is the real difference between " wage slave" and freedom ( well THAT and having no employees----as you know having employees is a kind of slavery also. LOL)
think things through VERY carefully, get the RIGHT answers from a pro---not us bozos on the 'net and
VERY best wishes to you,
Stephen
Stephen,
Thanks for the encouraging words! I have always loved construction, and after working in remodeling for someone else, wrongly assumed that running your own business was just getting paid more moeny with more freedom ( no one to have to lie to when you want the day off, go to work when you want, etc.)....WRONG! (The E-Myth is dead on).
I started my business before I really understood the financial/tax aspects because my girlfriend (at the time) did. Once she left, I had to learn things in a hurry. At one point, I didn't even know how to do my quarterlies. Now I've got that down pat, and I do my taxes with an accountant friend who watches me do my taxes, checks and corrects as we go. I'm getting better but I've come to the following conclusions:
1. Previously I've been too nice a guy to be a good business man-After five year of this, I've stopped always trying to make the client my friend. Maybe that says more about my people pleasing low esteem. I'm standing up more for myself, and not being ashamed of my prices. (Although after I send a high estimate, I cringe if I get called too soon, and usually check the message. I need to be more confrontational!) I'm much more confidant in my work and realize that I deserve to get paid decently for hard work. (I don't know what was wrong with me!) This forum has been helpful Ain learning more about profit, margin, and markup. (And that mostly EVERYONE who starts out having been an employee first, doesn't charge enough when the first begin their own thing.)
2. Breaktime forum has some REALLY intelligent trades people. I wish there were a way to get in touch with more builders like me in my area, but I often feel that those guys don't want to help the competition, especially if they had to learn those tough lessons the hard way. Most I think secretly hope you'll fail so they can snag good trades people away from running one's own business to running their crews!
3. I need to stack the dough while I'm relatively young, because I don't see my body being able to do the tough physical part for the next thirty years. (I'm 35).
Thanks again for the encouraging words and caveats. I guess I want to try the real estate thing just to know what it's like to just work on a place without someone breathing over your shoulder watching all the time. I'd love to do more expensive remodels, but I'm afraid to leverage everything at first. Working on $10000 houses and selling them for 300% is practice; not to mention I don't have that type of credit. I've had clients offer to buy houses, let me fix them up, and then split the profits, but that seems similar to what I'm currently doing, plus like they're getting rich without doing any of the work (Risking the money, but if you're rich, is it really risky?)
Thanks again Stephen...any other advice is appreciated.
Don't have anything else to add, but i'm curious. You said you'd been working in Indian Hills. Is that the one in Cinti? You didn't fill out your profile.I'm not green anymore.
Cu,
Yes, Indian Hill in Cincinnati. Are you from Cincy originally?
No - just have friends there. I'm about 80 miles away.I'm not green anymore.
I wish there were a way to get in touch with more builders like me in my area, but I often feel that those guys don't want to help the competition, especially if they had to learn those tough lessons the hard way.
You don't have to learn from builders only. Plumbers, electricians, HVAC people also deal with the same ins and outs of a trade based business. Pick their brains over lunch, or a few beers after work. Ask them what your competition does differently.
Learn from business owners that are not even in the trades. Learn from customers who are in sales or marketing. Always be looking to pick up new ideas. Then sort them out and decide which ones will work for you. Then use them.
Bowz