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Discussion Forum

contractor shop space ideas/suggestions

Hazlett | Posted in Business on October 23, 2007 05:19am

 heavy rain today—first chance to post here for some time.

tentatively looking to buy/build shop space within the next 6-8 months

previously rented a small unit( maybe 10 years ago)——–think it was 18×30——-$425/mo.-included water,electric and heat.

 later moved out of that unit—built a 24×28 ft. garage/8ft. overhead door behind my house–worked out of that very well for 10 years.

 moved a few blocks away—–no longer have the garage space on premises and now need storage space for dump trailer,equipment and a place for employees to meet each morning.

Area is centrally located in a population of approx. 220,000. excellent xway access—220,000 potential customers within 10 minutes drive—multiples of that within 30 minutes drive.

 thinking there must be MANY other similar  small businesses in the same situation( woodworkers,small contractors,roofers/siders etc.)

 might make sense to buy/build MORE than we need and rent out half???????

 I NEED 4 walls and a roof( all work takes place elsewhere)–indoor plumbing would be nice!, 8ft. overhead door—and that’s about it

 but to appeal to a potential rent situation–what would YOU be interested in ? I assume if i build— there are some things that “I” don’t need–but potential renting customers might find highly desireable–things I wouldn’t even think of because I don’t need them?-what size would you be interested in–what would you expect to pay in rent?–what would you WANT ?

any opinions welcome–thanks in advance,

Stephen

 

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Replies

  1. JHOLE | Oct 23, 2007 05:44pm | #1

    Do you have a site?

    Or are you thinking behind the house again?

    Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

    1. Hazlett | Oct 23, 2007 07:38pm | #3

       no site yet--but specific area in mind.

      ( absolutely no room at current house for this type of thing------and more importantly----do not really want employees coming to my house-and/or storing dump truck/trailer at my house)

      thanks,

      stephen

      1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Oct 23, 2007 07:45pm | #5

        no site yet--but specific area in mind.

        What's the zoning there?

        1. Hazlett | Oct 23, 2007 08:06pm | #6

           general area is about a few minutes drive from my house--call it 20 blocks.

           zoning primarily commercial----lumberyard burned down,machine shops, tow truck yard, light industrial, some residential( let's call it urban blighted !)

           I am reasonably confident the city will make a push to "redevelope" the area within 5-10 years. the lumberyard which closed occupies a HUGE swath of land available for industry--rail access,Xway access, basic city infrastructure, centrally located.

           Ideally i would prefer one of the existing,brick buildings used by the lumberyard--------but most would be FAR to big for my needs---and I expect the city would eventually push me out when a prospective industrial customer  came along shopping for the whole package.

           more logically I can buy several of the neighboring lots---formerly residential( but never gonna be residential again)

          stephen

      2. JHOLE | Oct 23, 2007 08:08pm | #7

        I kind of thought that but just wanted to be sure.

        So it's going to be "commercial".

        I know this sounds a little bit fu-fu but one thing I am thinking of adding to my shop is skylights. After spending long periods in there, especially this time of year and winter, I just really miss the natural light.

        My fisrt thought was also 3 phase.

        An area with a dead level slab and another area with a very good slope and a trench drain.

        The ability to have cross ventilation, if nothing else, to be able to fire up the leaf blower on cleaning day.

        Still thinkinRemodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

        1. Hazlett | Oct 23, 2007 08:22pm | #8

           out of curiosity--are you Calvin?-----or just somebody near calvin????????

           if calvin---

           son # 2 did not go to bowling green( to my disappointment)--he's at akron U

           several of son #1's friends are currently having a good time up at U of toledo

           have not had to call upon you for Bail assistance yet----son #1 is at the diagonal corner of the state ( Marietta)

           for me--a cornocopia of opportunities here in Akron----having a bit of a problem focusing on which ones to pursue long term.

          stephen

          1. JHOLE | Oct 23, 2007 11:02pm | #10

            No No NO. Calvin is much better looking than I.

            You probably could call for bail if ya needed.

            I'm over in Oregon, but He and I seem to share the same work areas.

            Although I haven't been hired to fix any of his work...............................yet.

            The main difference is that when he's in the Star diner i'm still sleeping off a hangover - ;)

            Still thinkin, most things seem so obvious.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

        2. BryanSayer | Oct 24, 2007 04:34pm | #33

          I don't think natural lighting is at all fu-fu.Not only does it increase the quality of life if you are having to spend time in the building, it might reduce the cost of lighting.And if you are ever using the building as a shop, natural lighting can be critical to decisions on color. I never cease to be amazed at how much color changes under different lighting types. So if you are doing cabinets or furniture or even painting, see the color under natural light is really helpful.And a loading dock sounds like a nice thing to have.

          1. CAGIV | Oct 24, 2007 06:26pm | #34

            Several studies have shown that natural day light makes for happier, healthier, and more productive workers.

            I've noticed it myself as I'm sitting in my office no windows.

          2. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 06:33pm | #35

            You're lucky. They stuck me in an office with no door.
            If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

  2. AndyCharron1 | Oct 23, 2007 06:19pm | #2

    Will the building have 3 Phase power? You might find that a cabinet shop would be a good tenant and you could end up in a situation where you sub out cabinet work to the guy who rents from you, or maybe develop sime kind of business relationship with them. Or, you may decide in the future to set up a shop and do some work out of your own building. In either case, 3 Phase power would be a huge plus.

    Edited to add: A decent loading area with access space for large trucks would also be a huge plus.



    Edited 10/23/2007 11:21 am ET by AndyCharron1

    1. Hazlett | Oct 23, 2007 07:41pm | #4

       can you tell me more about 3 phase power?

       do i assume at this point i just want to have the "rough in"-----leaving exact locations to be determined by future tenant if needed??????

      stephen

      1. RW | Oct 24, 2007 06:39am | #29

        In really laymans terms, all of your typical house circuits are fed on a single line. Single phase. That works for the kinds of things we use in our homes. As motor size increases, its harder and harder to get the juice to power them. So you start moving up the voltage - 220 on dryers, some tablesaws, etc. Now you're using two of the circuits in the panel. Still single phase. But you'll find a lot of industrial equipment runs on 3 phase power. 3 feeds. From my understanding, its more efficient and cheaper in terms of operating costs, but the upfront of getting 3 phase is a doozy. You have to have it available. Easiest way is look up at the pole and see if its got 3 lines across the top. There are also convertors but again, my understanding, only good for limited useage. If a cabinet shop wanted to move into a space, decent chance multiple items in their arsenal would run on 240/3 or even 480/3.

        Now I'm hoping an electrician will chime in and say something that's more informed than your average carpenter.

        Real trucks dont have sparkplugs

        Edited 10/23/2007 11:40 pm by RW

        1. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 01:39pm | #30

          The difference you'd first notice about 3-phase motors is that they get 3 hots going in and no neutral in most cases (though they do get a ground, of course). If you looked inside the motor you'd discover there was no start winding, start capacitor, or start switch. If you could somehow measure the instantaneous torque of the motor you'd discover that, whereas your standard 120/140V motor goes from zero to peak torque 120 times a second, the 3-phase motor has essentially no time variation in torque at all.
          If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          1. Hazlett | Oct 24, 2007 02:03pm | #31

             Dan,

             the unit i rented a year ago----was very similar to your business condo description.

             in fact, I talked about it here on breaktime shortly after the fact..

             currently the unit i rented at THAT  time--NOW is located directly next door to my primary supplier. there are probably 150 different businesses operating out of that complex-----my immediate neighbor was a carpenter/cabinet maker---there was an air tool repair shop across the parking lot, carpet installers,painters, welding shops,small machine shops----really it was a beehive of small american capitalism.

             It had many advantages  for me---but eventually I decided driving 12 minutes THERE everymorning and 20 minutes home  every afternoon was a quality of life issue----considering at the time it became increasingly obvious that my core market was a 8-12 block radius from my home---so i built the garage behind my home.

             Stephen

          2. Jim_Allen | Oct 24, 2007 04:08pm | #32

            Stephen, I gotta give you a lot of credit....trying to reduce those commutes! I understand it now since I've arrived in a big city. I've logged at least an hour every time I leave the house, ONE WAY, for the last two decades.fka (formerly known as) blue

  3. DanT | Oct 23, 2007 10:15pm | #9

    I believe, at least in my area, that buying existing is much cheaper than building.  I bought 5500sf 2 years ago or so for 50k.  Needed a roof, maintenance, cleaning, gas line repairs and a new furnace/AC for the office area. 

    Just bought 18k SF for 170k.  I am renting (almost have it all taken) about a third of it for storage only.  This will bring my overhead down to slightly less than what the old building was and I double my space. I could make more if I rented some of the space out to another business but chose to take only storage so I don't have a lot of excess traffic and can easily expand in the future if I need too.

    About 4 years ago I priced a new pole barn style building.  40'X 100' on 1.1 acre commercial lot.  A shell, breaker panel with power to it, gas meter and water and sewer to the building would have cost $174k.  And it still would have needed the guts put in the building.

    Also a nice advantage some times is the left over stuff the previous owners leave.  In the newest building I got 5 sections of pallet racking, 8 sections of various commercial shelving and 5 or 6 hundred dollars worth of lumber. 

    So I think if you have a blighted area I would look for something that needs minimal inspected work and a fair amount of general clean up etc.  This will minimize your cost going in and allow you to repair it as you go.  In a blighted area it would give you something to work on during inclimate weather or slow time which is what we do.  Anything you can do to build value or equity in and for your business only helps you.  DanT

    PS.  I would go for a 12' door if possible.  You never know when you may need it and once installed they last the same as an 8'er. 

    1. Hazlett | Oct 24, 2007 12:49am | #14

      Dan-------in some respects i would agree with the buying existing

      exept --i most likely would end up buying WAY more than I need

       but yes--perhaps i can rent out most of it.

      as mentioned-interestd in some of the lumberyard buildings.

       already aware-- have to be carefull of friends and relatives when you own a large building.-neighbor has building he runs a landscaping business out of----------place is  absolutely infested with buddies boats and junker cars

      actually--i would love to stumble across something similar to his set-up.

      stephen

  4. Jim_Allen | Oct 23, 2007 11:44pm | #11

    Stephen, if you want a rough idea, check out the local Craigslist ad for commercial space. You'll see what's available and what they are getting for rent. You might even post an ad offering space and see if you get any takers.

    I'm thinking you might not know how to access the Craiglist site...

    jim

    fka (formerly known as) blue

    1. Hazlett | Oct 24, 2007 12:34am | #12

       blue,

       you are thinking correct

      however it is but the work of a moment to solve such a problem--as I have access to a live -in college student............

      should have seen the "digital native' and his older brother laugh at me like i was the dumbest guy ever-----------about a week ago the 3 of us go to make some changes to our current cel phone arrangements

      son #1 opens up the back of his old cel phone---pull something out of it----sticks it in the new cel phone--he and his brother laugh hysterically when i mention that later he will have to explain to me whatever the hell he just did----

      ( something about a sim card)

      choosing new phones----salesman looks agast( sons  chortle)-when i mention my ONLY criteria is  "whichever one is gonna survive me dropping it off  of some roof"

      Son#1 looks puzzled when i mentione the first phone I ever  had was a "party line"------while son #2 chimes in" I know what THAT is-Mr. Knox explained that to us last year in 20th Century History.

      Tell me, is Craigs list such a thing that involvement will later cause me to be bombarded with erectile disfunction gizmo's,

      LOL Stephen

      EDIT---just checked--hey didn't even need an assist from my son--Look At ME !!!!!

       not much on the local Craigs list site--and nothing remotely comparable

      Edited 10/23/2007 5:43 pm ET by Hazlett

      1. Jim_Allen | Oct 24, 2007 12:45am | #13

        I know the feeling about the kids laughing Stephen. I also started life on a party line and the concept seems ancient.

        Heres a link to the Cleveland craigslist site that sell/leases commercial space. This will give you some clue to what the market is doing. http://cleveland.craigslist.org/off/ 

        For instance this ad is running in there right now:

        $2700 a month. 1 or 2 year lease available for 16,174 sq ft manufacturing building. 2 large (12’ x 14’) power rolling doors. 16’ ceilings. 380 sq ft of office space. Two bathrooms, one with a shower and lockers. South section of the building, 7,535 sq ft, can be closed off and sublet as a warehouse only. Gas heat. Utilities paid by renter. Fenced. Exterior security lights. 24 hour access through locked security gate. Close to I-90, just north of Rt. 254. Located at 5325 W. River Rd, Lorain, OH CALL: 440-225-6898

        5325 W. River Rd. at Rt 254

         

        If you check Craigslist on a regular basis you'll find that a lot of "normal" real estate people use it to find sellers, buyers, tenants and basically everything. We've created an entire new Michigan crew advertising in there. I like it because I can say 1000 words free. That pretty much tells all the drugheads to not call!

        There might be better areas for you....I just thought you were in the Clevland area.

         fka (formerly known as) blue

        1. Hazlett | Oct 24, 2007 12:55am | #15

          jim, i am in akron---about 30-40 minutes away from cleveland--and really a whole 'nother ball game entirely.

           HERE- I can get anywhere i need to go--in a matter of minutes----and most of my customers live within 8-12 blocks of this computer table.

          Ironically-in cleveland i would have probably an easier time finding the right facility----the LOCATION would be the problem

           I don't want to drive more than say 5 minutes to a shop---when i am just gonna be working 3 blocks from my house!

          Stephen

          1. Jim_Allen | Oct 24, 2007 01:01am | #17

            http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/off/

            They have an Akron listing. There isn't quite as much offered but it will give you some idea of the market rates.fka (formerly known as) blue

  5. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 12:57am | #16

    What they're building a lot around here are what I call "business condos", though I'm sure there's a different term the RE guys use. They're typically multi-unit buildings with each unit maybe 500-1000 sq ft, with a door and a garage door and maybe a window (though the GD may be replaced with a framed-in wall). Presumably they have (or somehow share) a small toilet/sink.

    Some are used for warehouses, some for service businesses, some for insurance offices and the like. Even a church in one, and a bar a few doors down.

    If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
    1. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 03:01am | #21

      This appears to be a unit in one of the buildings I described. It's been divided internally into garage and non-garage areas. You can see there's a common interior hallway for all the units, presumably leading to the privy. (Don't know what the car is for.)http://www.mlsfinder.com/mn_roch/help-u-saverealestate/index.cfm?action=printerfriendly&property_id=2926549(Hopefully that link will stay live)
      If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

  6. Hiker | Oct 24, 2007 01:10am | #18

    Stephen,

    We bought our first shop last year after looking for several years and renting shop space.  Around here, light industrial space near town is very limited.  We found ours by driving around looking for apparently empty buildings and contacting the owners. 

    The shop was a great decision.  First, I am paying myself rent instead of somebody else, second, it is a real estate investment that I know will pay off (appraised for 100% more than I paid for it).  If I want to, I could rent it for 30% more than the mortgage. 

    If you are able to get more than you need, consider other rental opportunities.  Great source of passive income.  I have  lot that I rent to a trucking company to park trucks.  An aquaintance wanted to know if he could practice there with his band at night.  They pay $100.hour to go and practice. 

    I would encourage it, especially if you start doing more door work where you could fabricate or work on stuff in a comfortable space.   Three phase is a great benefit.

    Bruce

    1. Stacey7133 | Oct 24, 2007 01:59am | #19

      I would also think about what businesses I would not rent to. My landlord doesn't do automotive. They are messy, often deal in stolen materials.

      I think the 12' high doors are a great idea. We fight our 10' doors. Only 2 of our box vans can come inside, the rest sit outside all winter.

      How you heat your building is important. We have radiant heaters on the ceiling. They are great for keeping the shop warm even if the bay doors get opened.

      I don't think 3 phase power is necessary. The renter still has a great expense of hooking up to 3 phase even if it's in the building. So you're looking for a special client that signs a long term lease, which you may not want long term leasees if you do something else with your building.

      We wish we had higher ceilings. 12' is just not quite enough. 20' is great, but expensive to heat, so somewhere inbetween.

      Just my 3 cents.

      1. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 02:46am | #20

        Yeah, 3-phase power could almost be a negative, since small businesses are more apt to have 240V stuff.
        If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

        1. JHOLE | Oct 24, 2007 03:08am | #22

          Pretty sure you can just go back to 240 from 3 easily.

          I actually know it's damn hard to go from 240 up to 3 phase.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

          1. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 03:12am | #23

            You get 208 from 3 phase. To get 240 you need another transformer, or an "off-center" setup.
            If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          2. JHOLE | Oct 24, 2007 03:21am | #26

            Yeah, didn't want to get too tech just said 240.

            Most stuff I've come across is rated 208 / 240 once it reaches the tool / equipment that you need at that level.

            I'd just rather have a building with 3 phase available then to have one that's not.

             Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

      2. JHOLE | Oct 24, 2007 03:12am | #24

        Yes that was one of my thoughts as well. ( radiant heat )

        I have and would only settle for radiant.

        Or homemade heat but I'm not going there for Haz's post.

        Don't see the expense of hooking up to 3 phase.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

        1. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 03:18am | #25

          Yeah, I think radiant (or hot water warehouse heaters) makes sense in something like this -- safer and easier to control/zone. Too many flammables likely to be around for GFA.
          If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

  7. MrBill | Oct 24, 2007 03:47am | #27

    STephen,

     I second the three phase if you plan on getting anyone to rent it that uses machinery. Most industrial / commercial machines are setup for three phase. As far as the single phase 240 stuff, it works fine, we have both types of equipment although the majority is three phase. 

     If you are going to build a building and plan to rent it, add a couple of feet in height so that a second floor can be built in for offices if needed.

    Thats all I can think of.

     

    Bill Koustenis

    Advanced Automotive Machine

    Waldorf Md

  8. alwaysoverbudget | Oct 24, 2007 05:35am | #28

    i lease some small commercial space and what i see tha t people want most is: at least 10'high doors and 10 wide would be the min. if i was building. i have 1 building with 12 h but really don't see a lot of people use them.

    3 phase,if you could rough it in to the box it's a big plus to about 1/2 the people. the bigger the space the more it's needed. if your renting a 1200 ft i wouldn't worry about it.

    around here if you can have a 3000+ building with either a loading dock or ramp guys will fight over it if there bussiness has a forklift/loading going on.it can be hard to build a new building and justify it,but if your looking at a old building that has one ,know it can be a big deal to some people.

    this has no bearing to your area really but around here 2500-5000 sf shop/storage space leases really well. rent factors at about 3.00-5.00 a ft[thats annual rent].      

    biggest thing i fight is hazardzous waste,if they create i want to know what they do with it.sometimes i'm not so successful.      larry

    if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?

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