A friend recommended a handyman. He was honest, did a good job and had reasonable fees ($45.00/hr for him and $65.00/hr w/ an assistant). In April, I got a verbal estimate to do the following for $1500 labor:
- remove old/install new patio door
- Bathroom – lay tile floor, replace bath and lavatory plumbing fixtures, install mirror, install new light fixture, wire gfi outlet
- determine why bath and kitchen exhaust fans did not draw air from rooms and correct
He allotted 3 days to finish the bathroom – not. The tile work and drywall seaming was inferior. He ran out of time (had other jobs) to install the tub/shower fitting or diagnose the exhaust fan problem but we would schedule a date to finish and I had not selected a patio door yet. His bill, $1424.00 for supplies and labor – I paid it.
On 23 July (first available time for him), he and his assistant came to exchange the tub/shower fitting and to correct the exhaust fan problem. He charges me $848.00!! It didn’t calculate right. When I asked why so high he says his rates had gone up to (get this) $125.00/hr with an assistant ($750 labor – 6 hrs & $98 parts – I can only come up with $58 in parts). I had budgeted $400 – 500 for the job. The fitting is in crooked (hot sticks out 1/2″ more than cold and the spout is at a angle) and the one exhaust fan that had great drawing power now has none. He says this is a new job so the old rates don’t apply. To top it all, he had swiped (stole) the new shower head – I was going to continue to use the old one. Didn’t ask if he could have it – I had to ask for it back. Luckily, I noticed it missing. I had supplied the tub/shower fitting. I refuse to pay him until all is corrected on 5 Aug (over booked again). Is this a new job??? Your opinions please…….
Replies
I dont think it is right to basically double your rates without discussing it with the customer and giving them the option of using another contractor. If the job wasnt finished then it is the same job. The real problem here is the lack of a specific contract or estimate. Where I am i could get a liscensed plumber to install these fixtures fo 60$ per hour, or about 300$. Thats all the fixtures, not just shower valve. The hourly prices dont seem out of line but the 1500 labor originally quoted is low for that amount of work. Personally i would not have allowed him to continue the job if the tile and sheetrock work were substandard.
I checked with a plumber I'd used in the past and his rates are $80 for the first 1/2 hr and $20 for every 20 minutes thereafter. In this case a licensed plumber for 6 hours would have been $520. Still cheaper than the handyman and I don't think it would have taken as long either! They estimated a switch out of a three handle fixture at $290.
I agree with the previous poster, the original quote for the presented work was low. I also agree that there should have been no work performed until a proper agreement between the contractor and client was signed by both. This would have detailed what was to be performed and for how much.
His jacking up the rates to lawyer status to say the least is exhorbitant, and if the work he did under those rates was work that you initially agreed upon, then I don't think he should have increased the rates. But then, you have no paperwork to back you up, only his integrity, which like his work, appears to be lacking.
Any recourse? In most states contractors must possess a license. Here in Conn., the Dept of Consumer Protection handles the license distribution and any consumer complaints. If he has a license, you could file a complaint, but before you do, try to reason with him and make your position clear. But even if you file a complaint, without a contract, I'm not sure what the outcome will be.
If he doesn't have a license, then next time I'll bet you'll check for one. At that point, you should check into what, if any, recourse you can take against him. My guess is, you'd be out the cash and have a subpar job to remind you of the lesson learned.
Sorry for the difficult time you're experiencing. Believe me, we're not all like that. Find someone that will document what you want and how much it will cost.
Good luck.
In my opinion, the original rate was in the range of reasonable for a skilled handiman. i.e. good craftsman providing good workmanship. His new rate is outrageous. In any event, insist that he corrects his faulty work and tell him you will pay him at the rate he quoted originally and not a dime more. Changing prices for incomplete work is no fair. Offer him that you will give him a cashier's check upon completion, in exchange for a lien waiver. Short of that, I would tell him that you will simply take a morning off and take him to small claims court. Just be polite, but firm, and follow through with the small claims court. I have found that judges have little tolerance for b.s. like this. In the future, I recommend that you negotiate a fixed price and terms of payments (i.e. $500 before you start, $500 when work half done and balance when done). It may cost you a bit more; perhaps it will cost you a bit less. But there will be no arguing over scope, price or terms. Above all, get a certificate of insurance before you let him in the house. If that guy or his helper falls down your stairs or otherwise injures himself while in your employment, you will be financing his retirement and sending his kids to college. -John
Did you have a written contract/estimate? Normally at least here anyway , a estimate is only good for 30 days, Then things can change such as material and labor rates. All that should of been discussed prior to the work being performed and in writing.
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
If he's not licensed and/or his help is without Worker's Comp insurance (things you should verify before ANY work commences) you may have some leverage in most states, because part of the functions of Contractor Licensing authorities is to lay the hammer to those working illegally.
If he is, indeed, current with all his licensing and insurance requirements, as others have posted, you may have an arbitration case. But if you end up losing for lack of a paper trail, consider it tuition...and seek out someone with some business ethics and verifiable skill next time.
Sorry you're going through this.
Let's see if I understand this: the original $1500 included changing the patio door, replace the tub/shower fixture, and work on the exhaust fans, but he did not do any of that work? And you paid him $1420? He should have advised you long before the bill reached 95% of the estimate that he wasn't going to finish 50% of the work, and you should have resisted.
He definately should have advised you on the second trip that his rates had changed. IMHO since he did not do so, you should tell him that you will pay the previous rates.
He doesn't sound reliable or ethical. The part about getting overbooked I can live with, because that happens.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I won't totally pile on him.
$45 bucks/hr is a fair rate in some places for handyman but low in other places. It's lower than an electrician and a plumber. His estimate for all the work you describe was very low, in my opinion, especially with unknown conditions, such as the fart fans. Depending on what caused their malfunctioning, there could be a thousand dollars worth of work just on them. Are handymen allowed to legally work installing circuitry in your state?
An estimate is just that. An educated guess at the cost. There is no committment involved in an estimate. It is not a bid or a contrated price. You hired a handyman at an hourly rate to do work for you.
He should not have changed his rates without giving you notice and time to respond. So he should be paid at the agreed rate for the time he worked.
Quality of work - Maybe he is not capable of better tile and SR work or maybe he had you breathing down his neck to work faster and get more done in the time allowed and for the money so he took shortcuts or rushed. I don't know.
The first bill was for labor AND materials. The estimate was for labor ONLY. how do I compare the two?
As for leftover parts - you are pretty quick to accuse him of stealing. It is standard practice for salvage (demo or leftover) materials to belong to the contractor. This is a grey area that deserves clarification. Could be no intent to "steal" from you. Most of my customers want me to remove all "junk" from the premises when I'm done with a job. I've installed a lot of that junk in my own house. If there is any question, I ask first.
Now then, what's the other side of the story? How would he describe you as a customer? I don't mean to sound like I'm acussing you of anything but there could be more to this. It's hard to give advice against him without knowing both sides.
Excellence is its own reward!
No, I wasn't breathing down his neck. I ran out of room on the original posting so let me go into a little more detail....
Some of the work I was to do and some he was. I stripped the old wallpaper/paste off the walls so he could open the wall to box in the medicine cabinet and have a clean surface for patching the drywall (an area of approx 1sq yard). He did not spread the mud over a large enough area so now there is a bumpy box shaped area on the wall. He was getting frustrated that the quick dry mud was taking longer than usual to dry and he was running out of time for the job. I had picked out a 5" hex tile and the tile co. rep advised me that this tile will not allow itself to go out of square. I passed this info on to the handyman. From my experience (as a DYSer) you plan where you want the floor to look the best and that's where (most of the time) you start. In this case, it would have been by the tub because it was smooth and straight surface to maintain square. Instead, he started in the opposite corner of the room where the vanity would cover the floor. I know of no room that is perfectly square. By the time he got to the door/tub it was all off and tried to force the title edges to be even along the wall. Under the vanity the floor looks great but the main area by the door/tub the grout lines vary in size and some tiles are higher than others cuz they would not stick from him adjusting their positions so he'd add more adhesive. Looks like little mesas. He's the one who called his own tile work inferior (not up to his own standard) and offered to tear it up, but stated that he would not be able to get back to it until July (this was in May). I had bought the tile and grout and he furnished the wonderboard and adhesive. By his comments, it was implied that I would be buying more tile if I wanted it to be redone. I couldn't afford to loose the use of the bathroom for two months (the toilet was in the tub) and pay for double the tile to boot. He gave a $100 discount due to the floor. In the evening, I would paint or work on another part of the project so it would be ready for him to install in the morning. I did not have a problem with the first bill. He had worked his - off. BUT I do have a problem with not finishing the bathroom and when he comes back (to finish) calling it a new job because he was paid for what he had complete so far and raise his rates without letting me know before he started the "new job."
My point on the shower head - I bought the tub/shower fixture in which it was included not him - I bought the majority of the supplies (light fixture, mirror, towel rack, etc.). It was my property! He should have asked if he could have it. Perhaps I should have used another word than stole.
And yes, I realize this is just my side of the story.
BTW - thanks for the advise on patio doors back in June.
Edited 7/26/2003 1:55:36 PM ET by CCZ
it's clear that this guy has quality and scheduling/estimating problems.
but the fact that he is willing to keep rescheduling and trying to do it right tells me he is not your average everday hack. Maybe he's still learning. ( who isn't, unnless they are in the grave - that eternal rut!)
for any owner-supplied materials, it would be normal for the owner to supply replacements also. His willingness to redo labor at his own expense is a good sign but he should be willing to do it sooner, given the fact that he created the need..
Excellence is its own reward!
for any owner-supplied materials, it would be normal for the owner to supply replacements also Pif, are you saying the HO should buy the replacement tile and mastic to fix the screwed up floor? I don't think so...
CCZ - sounds like you have tried to be reasonable and accomodating, except for the 'stolen' parts. I agree with everyone else...the contractor is expected to haul off all the detritus unless specifically told otherwise. Of course if there is an item that apparently has significant value, the contractor should verify. (See the 'Great Moments' discussion)
Do it right, or do it twice.
Many contractors refuse to use owner supplied materials because of this and other potential problems. If I don't make a profit on all materials used, I cannot afford to do any replacements. The profit has to include a value for funding possibilities like this. A roofing manufacturer or a door company is only responsible for replacement of the material provided in wararantee claims, not the total cost including labor - or damage to items protected by said material. There are limitations to everything.
If indeed, it was clear cut negligence on the handyman's part then maybe he should be responsible out of pocket. He did ignore cz's instructions about where to start but who knows, maybe it was impossible to do it the way cz wanted?????? I'm not there
IMO, since the HO hired this guy on a day labor basis, and provided the materials, the HO is acting as his own general contractor. It is the duty of the general to provide direction and to take responsibility for outcome of the job. In short, the HO assumed the risks that general contractors take on, in hopes of saving money on a service. He was therefore paying himself for a supervision service. He failed to provide that service to himself and cheated himself.
maytbe not quite that black and white - but it's one way of looking at it. Like I say, there's more to this ... maybe.
Excellence is its own reward!
I have to admit, when this thread began, I was ready to keel haul the guy, hack, whatever, and send him to small claims court. But you present a compelling argument that almost convinces me that he's a mere hack and nothing more. Almost.
I agree with you regarding the GC resposibilities of the HO, though admittedly I never thought about it. Would there be anything different with this argument if there was a signed contract? How much would the contract have to include for the HO to be assured of some measure of satisfaction?
I don't know. I guess what turned me off to the guy was the whole doubling of rates issue. That is unprofessional and reflects on his ethics. He's trying to take advantage of the situation, and regardless of how we paint the HO, that is wrong.
This sure seems like it should be in the Tavern, though, huh? Politically charged, maybe not, but it has raised some hairs, for sure.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Changing the rates makes him a fart, if not an actual turd.
Either way, it's nest to clear the air, and that will mean getting him out of the house, it sounds like.
I'm not really arguing one side or the other. I like my feet firmly planted on solid ground and I like to know what I'm stepping into before taking that stand.
Stepping in the wrong thing....Well the allegory in the first sentence covers it..
Excellence is its own reward!
The issue of owner supplied materials and contractor profits has been discussed before, and I agree. In this case, it appears the HO supplied the tile and grout, and th contractor supplied the underlayment and adhesive. Sounds like he screwed up the tile layout, and the application oif the adhesive and setting the tile. I assume he worked in a suitable profit for the HO supplied tile. That doesn't relieve him of the responsibility to install it correctly. If he had started the layout where directed by the HO, and the HO later said it wasn't right, too bad. But regardless of the layout, the tile has to go down properly, without the mesas.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I never accused him of stealing (to his face) it just smacked that way to me. I have no problem with a contractor hauling off debris but when it comes to brand new stuff - I'd like to be asked first - I have plans for it in another bathroom.
I bought the supplies not so much to save money but to get what I liked and wanted (light fixture, faucets, etc.). He had no samples or what-have-you and when he'd buy materials that don't need decorator sense (pipes, sheetrock) he was on the clock.
BTW - I didn't know you guys like to shop together like us girls :) When he needed supplies for the "new Job" both he and his assistant went to HD to buy 2 supply lines, 2 values, and some flexible ducting (not heavy stuff). Looking back - one might have been able to do some work while the other got the supplies since they both were on the clock. Now maybe the work required them to work together, but then shouldn't one have been off the clock until the other came back. It was just an observation. I don't know.
ccz. You mention about shopping together..........
And end with wondering if the helper couldn't punch out till the boss returned...........
Mis-managed time on an hourly rate is wrong. But asking the helper to forego his wages at a whim is close to unfair labor practices. Send him to lunch, send him for the goods. Don't ask him to punch out.
You got crappy work....... done in an un-workmanlike manner. Next time hire someone that will give you a good job.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
re: Shopping...Depends on the skill of the helper. Could be that the lead doesn't trust the helper to get the right stuff from the store, or the helper doesn't have the money and there's no charge account, or the lead doesn't trust the helper to do the work alone. Rather than let the helper do something on his own and get it wrong, which would require more time and lots of frustration, the lead drags him along like a shadow.
Do it right, or do it twice.
In my opinion, the first mistake was to hire a handyman to do the job of a specialist. I'm not trying to knock the handymen out there, but bathroom remodels do require a little more skill than some other jobs around the house. If you're a handyman with the skill to do a good bathroom remodel...I don't consider you a handyman.
It also seems to me that the price is what sold this job. As has been already stated, the rate seems somewhat low. Still, changing the rate in mid-job is a BIG no- no and should've raised concerns right there.
I'm always amazed at how HO will allow anybody to work on their home, their largest single investment in many cases! I'm also amazed at how HO will do anything to save a buck rather than realizing that VALUE for the money spent is the most important criteria. Checking other bathroom jobs this guy did before he started yours wouldn't have been out of line.
Your reasoning makes a lot of sense. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks. This particular question was mainly an attempt at humor which apparently didn't go over very well. Oops...sorry.
CCZ -
I recently had a $15,000.00 lesson in remodeling. The part that hurt the most is, I knew better, saw all the signs and yet didn't follow either my gut instincts or professional experience. At the time I was strapped to find a remodeling contractor and took on a small operator on the recommendation (for scale of work, not quality) of another contractor in the area.
I had a full set of design drawings, building permit, everything a bonafide contractor should have needed to perform. The first rat I smelled was when this guy said he would have to work on a time and material basis since the job was somewhat complex and he didn't know how he could go about estimating his time. Baloney - he's the professional and should be able to.
Second rodent surfaced when he required 1/3 of the 'estimate' (we had agreed on a cap to the construction costs) up front. "Dennis, you can't expect a contractor to finance your job". Well, I know better but, I needed the work done.
By the time we had almost come to blows over schedule and quality of the work he had subcontracted out, he had submitted the $15,000.00 worth of labor and material costs. We were nowhere near done. But it was a time & material agreement so I suggested (not exactly that politely) that he was out of time and I would procure the rest of the material myself and figure out how to install them.
OK - I'm just writing all this to let you know you're not necessarily alone. We've both had a lesson from the school of hard knocks. They're expensive lessons I would agree. And mine was simply a refresher course at that so I've got even *more* egg on my face.
Don't beat yourself up over it. You, nor anyone else reading this knows anything more than my end or your end of our respective stories. Given what I've related and what you've related, we both sound like Boy Scouts. Give a chance, I'm sure our respective protaginists would/could make an equally compelling case.
You asked for opinions ... this is mine - get over it. Most home owners get but a few opportunities to be involved with the construction business and home remodeling. Too many of them don't understand the intracacies of same. That's all history now - I won't try to tell you what you "should" have done since it's been done.
If getting over it doesn't appeal to you, get a second and even a third opinion. Hire a design professional, one who participates in small projects like yours, and have them evaluate the quality of the work. Hire, yes "HIRE" another contractor or two to look over the work. In most areas, remodeling contractors are as interested in policing their profession and maintaining the quality of work being done as you are. You don't have to tell them who the handyman/contractor was ... we're not out to slander anyone.
But be aware that anyone can pick apart anothers' work. We're not after nit-picking here but a genuine evaluation based on your expectations and what was provided.
Armed with all this backup, presuming it's in your favor then perhaps you have something to take to small claims court. But for as much as all this would cost, and as much as it might hurt your ego, ....
..... get over it.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Gentlemen,
please look back and read the referall this homeowner got originally when she hired this guy. Based on that referall----I doubt this guy is as bad as painted.
I believe A LOT has been left out here. something is definitely missing. Based on the handymans effective doubling of his rates----I believe he is sending her a clear signal that he doesn't want to do her work. He may be politely trying to tell her to "go pound sand"
wouldn't you like to hear HIS side? remember,he had a pretty good reference to start with.
"Based on the handymans effective doubling of his rates----I believe he is sending her a clear signal that he doesn't want to do her work. He may be politely trying to tell her to "go pound sand""
Based on this I would say that at the least he is stupid and unethical.
Raising his rate on WORK ALREADY DOWN is illegal. At least civilly wrong and possibly criminally wrong.
"at the least I would say he is stupid and unethical"
I agree. While I don't claim to be the expert in this area, every contract I work under has an escape clause, or a process for terminating the relationship...for things like failure to keep payment schedules current thru "we just can't work together" (or some lawyerly words to that effect).
Upping one's rates in midstream to force a parting of the ways is pretty off the wall and unprofessional, and probably has no legal merit.
But then, I guess this project had no contract.....
Edited 7/28/2003 9:41:57 PM ET by Notchman
Shazlett -
I read the original post, several times, and all the repsonses submitted for a day or three before I decided to enter my "opinion". And that's all I profess to offer, my opinion. In addition, I admited that should the handyman under fire, or my first selection of contractor be given the opportunity to voice their side of their respective positions, neither I nor the person who originated this thread would probably appear so squeekie clean as we try to paint ourselves.
My "opinion" offered to the original poster was to "get over it". We both got *some* work done for the amount of money we spent. While I protrayed my situation as a $15,000 "lesson", I did, none the less, get *some* work done; I got what I perceive about 75 cents on the dollar for the end cost vs what I got.
You're absolutely correct - no one here has heard the other side of either story. Clearly, there was a divergent perspective between what each party's expectations were on this project. And on mine. The fact my costs were as high a they were is, again, my own damn fault. I simply waited too long to terminate the relationship. I don't post articles here asking for how to proceed when I know full well when I share some of the fault for my own poor judgement. The purpose of relating my own experience was to illustrate what I perceive as the proper course of action from this point on.
Cut your losses and get over it.
Life is too short to drink bad wine. (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers-----my comments were not meant specifically for you----you just happened to be the last poster---so I hit "reply" sorry for any confusion.
BILL,
Based on the posters original post-----I see considerable wiggle room on BOTH their parts. I also don't see a contract----I see a verbal indication of a possible price based on poorly defined work------no real mention of the time frame involved-----delays caused by the homeowner-----and a lot of things left out. Maybe the handymans a snake---maybe not---who knows? but I bet his version would be considerably different.sure the handyman could have handled the situation better----but so could have the poster.AND, considering we only have the homeowners side of this---along with the pretty decent original referall-----I am betting most of this is poor communication on both their parts,very differing expectations about scope and level of work----and I am betting the handyman isn't nearly as bad as he comes off here.
> ...Dennis,
I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers...
Not in the least. In fact, you've stated my 'position' perhaps better than I did. As I read the original, there was ample evidence that this person didn't follow what we all (eventually) learn to be appropriate measures when entering a relationship such as contracting for work .... from either perspective. And in my particular case, it was exceptionally crude on my part to have waited as long as I did to bring the matter to a close.
I think we're singing the same song, Shazlett, the lyrics might be somewhat different but the melody lingers on....
Since no one I've seen post here professes to be a lawyer (perhaps fearsome of the onslaught of lawyer jokes), all we can really provide is opinion. And like noses, or other singular orifices of the anatomy, I've got one like everyone else. (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
I went back and re-read your post----and it seems we have learned the same life lesson over and over. LOL.
I think I can honestly say that when I look back on ANY troublesome situation I have been in,---- ANY---wether personal,professional,scholastic, athletic whatever.....I could have handled it differently and better. Almost always the offending party was still wrong---but I could have handled the situation better.the more outraged I am by the way someone has treated me---the more likely I am to later realize that I could have handled it better---that I should have seen the situation coming---there were plenty of signs etc.
time or distance must add perspective---cause the same thing usually applies when somebody else tells me of THEIR problems. amost always there is a point when the "innocent" party could have greatly effected the situation to a much more desirable outcome.In essence,ultimately it's usually our own fault.
ELCID72 writes "He should have advised you long before the bill reached 95% of the estimate that he wasn't going to finish 50% of the work, and you should have resisted.
He definately should have advised you on the second trip that his rates had changed. IMHO since he did not do so, you should tell him that you will pay the previous rates.
He doesn't sound reliable or ethical." and I'm in total agreement with that. That's a real good accessment. Especially the part I highlighted in bold. You are under no obligation to pay the new higher rate. The guy made an agreement (contract) with you (oral or written) to perform the work at a particular rate. He can't tell you after the fact "Oh yeah, I raised my rates
Where as RonT wrote "Normally at least here anyway , a estimate is only good for 30 days, " Well sorry but there is no rule or common practice like that anywhere. It might be common (and even good) practice to write a proposal or agreement that says that if not accepted within thirty day this proposal/agreement expires but if you don't say that or write that you can't just unilaterally raise your rate like that.
Although getting back to ELCID72's comments again "The part about getting overbooked I can live with, because that happens.". It does? Well yeah it does but that generally due to poor or nonexistent production management practice and/or poor estimating skills. CCZ's handyman is not a business man he's just some joe doing handyman work. Just because it handyman work doesn't mean it shouldn't and can't be run like a business.
But that's a whole other discussion isn't it?
The other thing the baseline rate goes from $65.00/hr with an assistant to $125.00/hr with an assistant. That's almost a 100% increase! Like Piffen I think the original rate was probably really low and who knows maybe from reading some of Sonny Lykos' JLC talk about the rates he's able to command for that kind of work he saw the light and decided to raise his price but I'll tell you this; to paraphrase the famous line; "I know Sonny Lykos and your handyman, he's no Sonny Lykos". Sonny or any other real business person would stand by the quote and accept his own mistake. I've been there and done that. Plenty of times.
As for leftover parts if I left the leftover parts on my projects my clients would be pretty annoyed. When we throw stuff out we don't even use there garbage service, or at least we generally don't. My own personal basement workshop in my home has these fantastic St. Charles cabinets we tore out of a project a few years ago that are better than the cabinets I have in my existing kitchen. While I'm on your side regarding not paying for the unilateral rate increase I do not think your handyman "stole" your new shower head.
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Thanks for the backup Joe...I'll send a check second Tuesday of next week...let me know if it doesn't arrive...
As to the time management...I assume what happend to the handyman in questiuon is what happens to me...scope out a job, present an estimate with an expected duration...talk with other potential clients trying to line up other work...make promises for start dates...job runs over due to unforseen conditions, changes or underestimating...what do you do? Pull off the first job to start the second? Delay the second job? In this case, the HO even states that she/he had not selected the new patio door.
As has been said before, there's two sides to every story, and although this one learns in favor of the HO, we're missing something.
Do it right, or do it twice.
"Thanks for the backup Joe...I'll send a check second Tuesday of next week...let me know if it doesn't arrive..."
With a newbie poster in here, it's probably not the best thread to be joking about money, eh? LOL
I run over schedule on things like this all the time. Once my truck lands, the mantra starts, "While you're here....", " As long as you've got this torn up...", "
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Agreed on the money. To whom it may concern: my previoius comment to Joe about sending a check was a joke. I was happy (delerious, actually) to see that someone else agreed with my opinion. The part about 'second Tuesday of next week' should be a clue. And anyway, his name is Jerrald, even though my fingers typed Joe. Sorry jerrald, but at least I didn't refer to you as Larry....
Do it right, or do it twice.
Edited 7/26/2003 12:23:43 AM ET by ELCID72
Whoa, that was close. Whew... ironically we happen to be railing guys too.
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Well I am feeling right at home now, overbudget, unfinished, arguing money, and substandard work. Should be able to clear this up in no time. Several issues here that can be attacked individually to better analyze the whole story.
1. Why is there both an hourly rate and an estimate price. One of the two must be flexible, apparently he thought both were. I tell people that I charge per hour, and they can tell me to quit anytime that they are not getting their moneys worth. Any price estimate, at my rates, is nothing more than a wild guess, and I try to tell them so.
2. Rate change in the middle of a job, a definite no no. Once started, the whole thing is at that rate, especially when he left prior to completion.
3. Not to rip the original poster, but by who's standard are you judging the work. Is it so bad that you have never seen so bad, and if so why did you allow him to continue, or is it just that you can see a flaw or two, and were expecting perfection for low rates?
4. Removing unused parts, in my opinion is not stealing, but cleanup. I think he should have asked, but I don't think that this makes him a thief. Belive me, leaving a bunch of stuff behind is much worse and probably more common.
5. In my state, if you don't do jobs over 1,000 dollars, you do not need a license to be a handy man. You may have little luck in that regard, but small claims court should be a alternative if required. Offer to pay the old rate, for time to this point, and then nicely send him packing. No way that I would pay double without notification.
Just for further education of all the readers here, were there other bids, and if so did this one win on price alone? I always like to tell people they get what they pay for , whether I was the high price or the low one. As a handyman, I manage to get involved in a little bit of most types of work, but am not a real expert at any of them. My selling point to the customer is that for a little job, most specialist are to busy, and pretty expensive, I am willing to do it all. NOt perfect, but most times good enough. Slow and comparatively cheap, but most are happy. Sorry to hear that your guy is not working out, but at least it is working, I hope.
Good luck, and please keep us informed of the outcome, it makes us all better to share experiences.
Dan
1. Why is there both an hourly rate and an estimate price. You tell the customer: "I charge $45/hr and I think it will take about $1200 including materials."
Do it right, or do it twice.
"While you're here....", " As long as you've got this torn up..."
oh these words are the bain of my life i can't ever recall a job without any extra work.
aleks
By now you have plenty of advice about what you and the contractor might have done wrong. I can see the two of you reeling from the blows of various posters. I know are that the estimate was low and that he shouldn't have changed his rate without telling you.
The other thing that I definitely know is that you should have confronted the man when you first had any doubts about his work or the price. If at that point you do not get satisfaction, terminate the relationship and get someone else to do the work. There are many disadvantages to an informal contractual arrangement that you had, but one great advantage is that if things are not working out for either party, it is easy to call the whole thing off by simply paying for the completed work and parting ways. Trying to continue is pointless.
you did not hire a contractor and you did not even get what you paid for
next time try hireing a licensed profesional
Missing the obvious wirtten agreement which I am sure that you have kicked yourself in the tail over a million times by now none of the "new" work actually was. All of the work that he came back to do was covered under the original agreement. You owe him only the original quote and no more.
As for the increased labor rates, too bad for him. He agreed to a specific labor rate when you discussed the work orignally. Just because he can't schedule his jobs properly or work faste nough to keep up with them does not create a financial burden on your part. He has no basis for asking for more money for his labor.
Yes the number was too low, and the time was obviously unreasonable, but too bad for the handyman. It's his problem, not yours. All the rest of us have to eat the cost when we underbid something. Why should he be so special? Anyone that cares about their reputation would make good on the work and learn the lesson for next time.
Good luck. I see several court visits in your future to cease a lien waiver against your property. Maybe your handyman won't be that smart. Check out the laws in your state covering verbal agreements. In some states verbal agreements are binding.