I have needed several jobs done around my place over the last couple of years. A new flat roof, small retaining wall, chimney replacement etc. I always try to get three or so estimates, and when I call people I often never hear back from them.
I don’t understand it. I know its summer and everybody is probably busy but if I was running a business the least I would do is call people back and tell them that. Quite frankly I don’t care when the work gets done. They could do it in the fall or when they are short of work, it’s crazy.
I have also noticed that the bigger name companies – the ones who do the most advertising – do make a point of calling and coming around but they are almost always the most expensive, often two or three times the other guys.
Replies
Quit complaining. If you want the work done call the expensive guy. There's a good chance the cheap guy will be the one who shows up to do the work for them.
_________________________________________________________________
"If you want the work done call the expensive guy. There's a good chance the cheap guy will be the one who shows up to do the work for them."
Say what???? Pay 2 or 3 times what's the jobs worth just to get it done? I wish my customers were like that.
Do yourself a favor.....dont waste time just being concerned about money. I understand you have a budget, but you get what you pay for in construction.
Where are you located?
Do you know anyone else who has had similar work to what you want done?
You are probably better off getting referrals from friends and family if you can.
As to the difference prices offered, there could be a myriad of reasons, I know the company I work for will occasionally bid high on a job they really don't want, but....if they get it so be it. Could also be the bigger companies have things like insurance that the little guy might not. and the list continues with many other possible reasons
"You get what you pay for" generally rings very true in this business.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Call a mason for the chimney work, a roofing company for a torch down, and a Landscaper for the retaining wall.
You are talking about three very different jobs and I doubt you will find one person to do them all.
I have a reliable sub-contractors referral list that I hand out to my customers you might try a a remodeling contractor that would provide you with a similar list.
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
"Call a mason for the chimney work, a roofing company for a torch down, and a Landscaper for the retaining wall."
Didn't mean to sound if I was calling one person to do all these things. These are several different jobs done over last couple of years. Same thing, guys just don’t call you back.
Take my roof for example. Roofing guy working next door knocked on the door and gave me a price. I knew it was bad and I said I'd call him back. Called seven local roofing companies heard back from several, only three showed up. All four quotes were all in the same price range and same material. Called "named" company. Showed up in a truck with a HOME DEPOT logo on the side. I did not call Home Depot! Price was 3 times the other guys. All insured and all pros no amateurs. I called the first guy back who knocked on my door to ask him to do the job. Never got to tell him he had the job because I still haven’t heard from him. What am I to think?
Try calling him again.
Sorry to burst you bubble, but here I go.
In my opinion, this is more a function ignorant homeowners than ignorant contractors.
First of all, when someone gives you a quote, they are giving you something of value, and generally for free. They are not so much selling you something as you have approached them to come to your house. If you want to see a good doctor, you might have to work them a little or be patient to see them.
Getting seven quotes is ridiculous. It make me think you are lazy or have no friends. Either do your homework, and find a couple of good guys, or ask your friends who they've used. Getting seven bids probably costs more collectively than this work has profit in it. Every bid you get costs somebody something and you took more than your share.
As far as the returned phone calls goes, in the 13 years I have been in business for myself, not one person has called me to thank me for my time and tell me when I didn't get the job. And some of them I had weeks into. Even when I called to ask them how it was going, they wouldn't return my calls. Quite a few left me to continue working when the project had already been awarded to someone else. So you won't get to much sympathy from me there. But as I said before, you approached these contractors, there is no protocol stating that you can't call them back. Sometimes, people go to the bottom of my phone list if, for example, I think they are taking advantage of me or my time. Sometimes a return phone call from a customer lets me know that they are serious about me doing the work. A phone call is more of my time that I am giving you for free, but its not free to me.
I make every effort to return calls in 24 hours, but sometimes it is tough. Alot of us are one man operations, and we are constantly juggling all aspects of the business. Incidentally, I appreciate it when potential customers are very direct in valuing my time. If I don't know you already, then the only common interest we have is the work, so you might put me off if you start telling me about your personal life. My customers recieve immediate response, but until you actually become a customer ie. by giving me money, you are not at the top of my phone call list.
It always amazes me when a homeowner has not developed relationships with people they need to do work they can't or won't do on their own. Think of the doctor example again, most people stay with their family physician through his whole career. But they forget who worked on their house a few days after the job is done.
Tom
Tom, very well said my friend.
Brian_____________________________HomeBase________ Kitchen & Bath Builders, LLC
Brian Roberts, Manager
Wasting our time? Asking for to many estimates? Get to be a contractors buddy?
P L E A S E!!
I've been a contractor for the past 25 years. Is what Tom said wrong- no, sad-yes.
I have many clients that I can say are friends, but few of the friendships ever continue past the check, their choice. While I might give priority to a regular client for my time I would never, not return a call on a new bid. Call me aggressive but if they called me and I went out to their house, it is respectful, that I would return there calls. I even return calls of those who I am not interested to come out for the bid. I try to forward there work to another contractor if I am to busy.
Most importantly I feel it is wrong to expand a bid on a job you don't want to do, so if you do get it, at least your compensated. Frankly for what ever reason that I may feel the job is not right for me I simply tell the person I am not interested in doing work for them. A simple respectful declaration. While some may take offense, none is given, all the more reason to trust my gut reaction.
However I still try to offer another contractor. This is because all clients need to find that contractor there comfortable with. This doesn't mean friendship it means a business relationship based on mutual respect.
Your getting several bids is fine. After 3 or 4 it should be apparent the range of cost. Now what you should concentrate on is the reputation of the contractor your going to chose. And as importantly is this company one you can work with, argue your issues with fairly and calmly. Is somebody who can treat your job like it's the only one they have despite there actual volume. And ya, sometimes you will have to call back and sometimes seem to have to badger them into doing the work they bid.
Just like I said check them out, all references. Don't assume if they give you references there all good. Sometimes the contractor is the last to know that their about to be going to court.
In other words, can there be shared respect. I make sure all my clients feel comfortable with bringing up there issues. Most times it's not as bad as they think.
Am I supercontractor-hardly. I am just a fourth generation carpenter who's grown up seeing both sides of running a business and I feel my grandfather did it best. He would say,"When you work on a persons home, Robert, act like it's your mama's."
Edited 7/30/2003 10:58:35 AM ET by Bob
I agree. Very well put.
I believe everyone, before buying their own home, or having one built, should take an unvarnished class on the realities of home ownership, and the role of contracting in home construction or home improvement.
I read these threads along with operating my own small (and very busy) operation and over a period of time, some patterns emerge: People who are preparing to make a serious investment in one of their most valuable and important assets often proceed without doing a lick of homework; They watch "Design on a Dime" and have no appreciation for the true cost of professional work: They believe all of us "self-employed" are getting rich at what we do; expect "counter service" like Wally World as though we're just hanging around the phone waiting for THEM to call.....and blah, blah, blah!
Now I have to say, I've been very fortunate, because I've had a history of good customers for the most part who don't fit my rant above. But part of that is because if I recognize them as a serious prospect, I try to give them a little reality check in the very beginning and then work hard to make the project process as pleasant as possible, with plenty of follow up.
But I will also confess that I don't return every phone call. I try to, but I do have a life after 10 or 12 hours of hard work....put off returning calls (for work I really don't need or am able to do in the foreseeable future anyway) long enough and after awhile, those phone #'s kind of drop off my radar.
But, I have had clients who were persistent; eventually I connected up with them and we eventually did a project.
ASSENNAD, after I read your message I predicted the response you would get, and surprise, surprise, I was right. It's your fault that they don't call back, it's your fault you talked to too many people, it's your fault you're concerned about spending too much of your money, it's your fault, it's your fault, it's your fault....
What nerve you have expecting a call back! What nerve you have calling 7 roofers (note Tom B., if you had read more carefully before jerking your knee you would have seen that he didn't get 7 estimates, he contacted 7 contractors, big, big difference)! What nerve you have to expect professionalism and courtesy! What nerve you have to be concerned about how much the job costs! Don't you understand that a contractor is like a neurosurgeon or a cardiologist??? Just suck it up and pay the bill!
Atta-boy!
I like your short and yet clearer remark. I get to wordy sometimes. Gotta work on my excesses with words. There I go, should have left it with
Atta-boy!
I'm kinda in the middle on this one. I return calls withing 12 hours if at all possible and within 24 at the latest. I too return all calls and will call and say that I am not interested or whatever. And I do detailed non-form type quotes even on small jobs. But I see Toms point.
So many times its a one way street. Yes the home owner is paying for the privlage but when its free I have a tough time feeling that someone is ruining your life by not calling back. And I have had the no call back thing done to me. I called a second time and if no response I wrote that company off. Simple. Now if you are thinking, man this sure is wasting my time having to call all these people just to get them to work on my house, now you know how it feels from our shoes. No call back, no idea, no returned phone calls. And we both got it done to us for free! DanT
I can’t believe what I am hearing. It’s my fault that people don’t want to do business?
If you read carefully what I wrote I only received three estimates. Two from smaller local guys, one from a company that does lots of advertising and has a reputation for too charging much.
And how is getting three estimates is too many? It took several calls to different people simply to get those estimates and - the first one was unsolicited and we never talked specifics.
I know exactly what the cost of the job should be. I called the local roofing supplier and asked them for contractor recommendations, which they refused to give. They did provide me with material and labor costs I should expect.
You get what you pay for is not always true. In every business people try and maximize profit at your usually at your expense.
What bugs me is that guys have full page ads in the yellow pages and drop of flyers to your home and when you call them you get a voice mail which they don’t return. Or if you give them a daytime phone they call it at night, home phone they call it during the day.
Free estimates are what’s called a cost of doing business. Just think if I applied for a job and refused an interview or demanded that I be paid for that the job interview. Do you think I’d ever get a job?
Tom,
AKA373,
ASENNAD,
View Image
I think this comment speaks volumes about your dilemma and what you are trying to accomplish:
I know exactly what the cost of the job should be. I called the local roofing supplier and asked them for contractor recommendations, which they refused to give. They did provide me with material and labor costs I should expect.
Your attitude puts you in a category of customer I would prefer not to work with. Which by the way, I would probably discover on the first phone call and there would be no reason for a return.
I'm definitely not trying to bash you here, just educate you.
You can't know my cost for the job. You might have an idea of the going rate from you conversation with the supplier, but unless they actually do the work their information may be dated. You could have 7 guys bid the same job, and all under or overbid, it all depends. But I would say if you've already figured out what the job should cost, do it yourself.
As far as the roofing supplier not recommending any contractors, some do, some don't. But I think it would be highly unusual for them to not know someone to refer. Could it be that they sensed the same thing in you that caused four out of seven contractors to not return you call.
Maybe you should take a shot a contracting. I have learned the value of planning, research and patience, among other things.
I appreciate your point of view, here's mine. The most valuable resource I have in this life is time. The second most valuable resource is experience. When I willingly give them away, I am looking for some serious, genuine appreciation. When I sell them, I expect the same thing, but I'll settle for the money. If they are taken from me by deceit, I try and learn from it and move on.
It really doesn't have anything to do with business.
Tom
Got to agree with Tommy on this one. Yes you know the costs of the materials, but do you know the cost of my time, and the wear and tear on my tools? Do you know the cost of printing the invoices or paying the taxes and insurance that as a contractor we have to pay? I bet not!
Now having been a homeowner and currently owning several rental properties, I can sympathize with your situation. And when I need something doen at one of the properties that I cannot, or do not want to do I call three people to get estimates. When I leave have to leave a voice mail for them to return my call I do something most people who call me do not, I leave 2 contact phone numbers........I may not be at home when they call me back. Strange concept is it not?
Now as a contractor I attempt to return all phone calls, but being a small company it is not always possible for me to answer the phone immediately when they call. Most will leave me one number; and then when I get to return my phone calls in the evening they are not there to take my call. Please remember that if you do not want to deal with the prices of the big guys who have secretaries to answer their phones, you must be patient the small companies may not have that luxury. The person you need to speak to in that company may very well be on the roff of someone's house when you called or building the retaining wall, etc. You see their price may be more resonable because they do not have to pay the salary of the secretary answering the phone.
Just my 2 cents,
Theresa Riley
Honeydoos--Irving Texas
I think this thread points up the problem that we as contractors face; our trade isn't taken seriously by many that want to use our service.
I know that the poster that pointed out, "here come the remarks that we're like doctors", etc., will have a chuckle with this but, for the most part, we ARE professionals that are entrusted with most peoples' most important investment, their home. Does a financial planner give free advice? Does a doctor not charge for a consultation? Fer Christ sake, HAIRDRESSERS are charging consulting fees on how to cut your hair!!! Why is it that giving a free estimate for us is a cost of doing business?
Another thing I agree with is the poster that pointed out that most people expect to pay us less than they make and that no matter how much work you do for some people, it's price that they're interested in the most. I'm slowly realizing that this perception of our industry is the single, biggest, problem we face. We need to change this if those of us single propriotors are to have any shot of growing our businesses any larger than they are now.
I wish we could have a flat rate manual to estimate most jobs. I think that it would be possible to do if someone took the time to do it. It would go a LONG way to establishing the going rate for our work in a lot of cases. It would also take the "mom and pop" aspect away from it.
Another thing I'd like to see is a contracting "degree" from a university. I'm not aware of university that offers courses on all the aspects of construction and running a construction business. This would go a long way to legitimizing the experience that many of us have built up as "masters" in the field with a document stating that this is so. It would give us that imprimatur that we are indeed, professionals.
NAHB has programs for continuing education and a way to put letters after your name, such as CGR - Certified General Remodelor. You are right, we are professionals - those of us who earn it anyway.
I have clients who include a Duke, an owner of a seat onthe NYSE, a REIT Manager, several lawyers, a descendant of the Adams Family ( The early Presidents - not the spooky TV Show ;) -), and the owner of a succesful restaurant chain in the south, and several monied widows. I am able to deal with each and every one of these folks on an even keel. I earn their respect because I respect myself and my ability, and treat the job as though it is important. I think that is part of the key to upholding the integrity of this profession. If you act like you are "just a carpenter" or "only a roofer" then your customers will take their cue from that and treat you accordingly.
So when a HO comes along and starts right out putting you down by treating you as only a pricing agent, instead of a skilled tradesman who can improve their homes value and comfort - and thereby, their lives, That HO has no respect for you and deserves little in return. If he can be educated, do so, as a doctor might educate his patient about the disease they are struggling with. If he already knows what to do and how much it should cost, there are hacks who can have his work.
My apologies to anyone who might think this is sounding too arrogant, but I really believe that if we don't respect ourselves and our craft, then no-one else will either.
One of Solomon's proverbs says
"Do you see a man who is skilled in his craft?
He will serve before kings"
I interpret that to mean that the more skilled a man is the higher respect he deserves. The best way to elevate your cratft, yourself, and your income, is to add to your skills and training.
But don't stop at learning. If your knowledge is a secret, it's like buried money that draws no interest. Sell your self and your craft to make it pay.
It's easy to sell something you believe in!
Now look at that statement from the opposite side - the price shopper. He believes in a low price. He wants you to sell him a low price while you want to sell him a quality job.
Does oil mix with water?
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Ya know Ivew been kinda following this thread and the only thing I would add is, I dont know but Im Im guessing, The more expensive guy has been around for a long time and will be around if you happen to need him to fix something or some other warranty work where the cheaper ones well good luck.....
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
I agree completely with what you said!
I try very hard in my professional life to do exactly what you say, selling my craft and stressing the value and importance of the work I do. I think what frustrates many of us is that our trade is generally taken for granted by almost everybody. We're not given the same benefit as the automobile mechanic, the body and fender guy, guy who fixes the computer, etc. The only thing I can think why this is so is because our trade is shown as, "You can do it too!".
There are no shows on TV that show you how to do body work, rebuild your transmission, etc. No auto parts stores have classes on changing your brake pads or rebuilding your engine over a weekend. Yet, in the home remodeling industry, we not only compete with each other, but with every hack that can hold a hammer, every "brother-in-law" that put in his own deck, and every homeowner that thinks he can do it himself for 1/10th the price. And we're hurt by the big box stores that portray contractors as overpriced and incompetent with the way they advertise their classes and products.
This is what needs to change.
As a home owner, how do I research contractors?
I went to the lumberyard and asked the clerk what his ideas about who would do a good job, but he only knew who did a lot of work, besides this thread has told me that a simple clerk doesn't know anything anyway even though other threads say to do just this.
None of my friend and neighbors have ever had this kind of work done before.
I did call one contractor and he came out right away (now you know that this is a fictitious story), he arrived in a new truck, no tools, was nicely dressed, and seemed like a nice guy, we talked for 1/2 hour and he said he would return with a proposal in two days. I got his proposal. Now, how do I determine if he is a slick bottom feeder (too low a price) or a high-as-Sears ripoff?
Just looking at what I paid for my dream (house), I would guess that the job will cost me about 1 1/4 YEARS GROSS INCOME and I will be living with it for 20 years, so it is important to me that I make a good decision.
Be a devils advocate
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
He*ll Man, call me! I'll do it for free. I don't need money.
Be a freebird
razz ...er rez
Sam,
If you think he's the guy, ask him for some referrals. I generally don't just give a list of my referrals. If someone asks, I like to give the names of people whose job, personality and position in society is similar. If the customer wants to see jobs in person, I call and verify past customers who I know will be willing.
Giving out referalls can be tricky, not that I have anything to hide, but some customers don't believe thats their job no matter how happy they were. I had another good customer who got bombed every night after work. There is also the possibility that they may be in a situation (ie middle of divorce, death in the family, etc.) which might make an other wise good referral not so good.
I love giving out names of referrals, most often thats the thing that stops the competitive bid process for me.
Another component of your homework would be to stop by a job that is in progress if possible. Even just to drive by and look at the condition of the site. But if possible take a close look at the work to see whats being done.
I drive by other contractors jobs all the time and I can tell a flake from a good guy after driving by once or twice. I'm sure you can too.Tom
samt.... one good way is to tell him you like what you hear so far and ask for his references..
when you get to his references , keep it friendly and see how they got along, what their impression was.. how they heard about the guy.. if it was a referral, you can go back one level in the references..
i always try to keep my list of refernces from people who will corraborate the positive impression i try to maintain.. but i reallly have no way of knowing what my customers will say..
jsut getting another proposal will not neccessarily enlighten you any more than you already are.. but you never know, do you ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey Mikey,
How's tricks?
To add to the reference bit....
I'd also ask if any references would let ya do a drive by.
I have permission from most all my previous customers for a phone referal...
and I also have a coupla references that I've asked to be "on site" references.
I always review and update the list ....making sure they're still comfy with the idea....but so far ...no problems.
I've had people call to see if they could "see the work" ....then decide that if they'd let a potentila customer into their homes for a quick walk thru ....that was good enough. No need to actually walk thru ....just the idea that a former customer would agree was enough.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
i have an out of date reference list right now.. because no one has asked for it for the last three years..
our brochure says " references on request"... but i'd have to blush if i heard some of the things our last 3 or 4 customers would say about us..
and yes, i do make it plain that my references have given me permission to use them.. which doesn't include a visit..though i can certainly arrange that too...
so.. when do we get to see the corey-man ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Corey-man"
Just learned last week the chief day-care lady has started calling him ...
"Corey-boy"!
Cath asked...no reason ...just looks like a "Corey-boy"...
Good enough for me.
His namme sake in the kickboxing ring was Corey "the Kid" Moss.....
So Corey-boy seems to fit.
Maybe we gotta move to the south?
How's tricks up your way around Jan or Feb?
All our summer trips put off till then.......I'm thinking about lotsa little trips thru Dec .....maybe we'll have to call your side of the world an early spring trip?
Corey did appreciate his Summer in RI package!
That big job I told ya about still looks very promissing ...so I'm planning on sticking around here and making some money......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Feb. is great in RI.... the tourist count is low.. lot's of parking spaces... after Christmas sales..
just a little cold.. but not as cold as PGHMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
In my opinion, the best way would be to see another job that the contractor has done and word of mouth.
In many neighborhoods, there's always construction going on. Everybody has friends at work, at church, etc., that's getting some work done. I feel that if you're interested in getting work done, talk to these people. Go and see what kind of work was done and how it was done.
Of course, don't wait until the last second to do this. Give yourself some time before you are ready to start your project (a year before you are ready to start a large project is not an unusual amount of time to allow you to do the research you need to do).
When you are ready to go forward with your project, that's when I would start making calls. If there is a job that you like how it came out and the HO has nice things to say about that guy, I'd would then give him a call. Leave him a phone number and a time that he can reach you. If a few days have gone by, give him another call.
"There are no shows on TV that show you how to do body work, rebuild your transmission, etc. No auto parts stores have classes on changing your brake pads or rebuilding your engine over a weekend. Yet, in the home remodeling industry, we not only compete with each other, but with every hack that can hold a hammer, every "brother-in-law" that put in his own deck, and every homeowner that thinks he can do it himself for 1/10th the price. And we're hurt by the big box stores that portray contractors as overpriced and incompetent with the way they advertise their classes and products."
You are wrong.
I don't have cable, but look at the stuff that that they show on DIYNET.com
Servicing Drum brakes
Servicing Disk Brakes
Upgrading to Electronic Ignition, etc.
And the local high school and community colledge ad ed will often have classes on auto repairs and if you look at the qualifications of the instructor it often a dealership service manager or auto parts dealer.
Maybe I am, but everywhere I look on cable there seems to be another home improvement show giving a how-to on building that 3 story extension without a foundation, or how you can put in a luxury kitchen for under $500.
It just seems as though the residential building trades are taken for granted because just about everywhere you see people supposedly doing it themselves.
Oh, something I forgot to add when looking for a contractor.
Don't start a guy off on a big project.
If you can, use the guy for a few smaller jobs to see how he works, if your personalities mesh, etc.
This will allow you to get a feel for him and for him to get a feel for you.
Many of my most successful big jobs started out as bull$hit small jobs.
Hey, I'm on your side. But when you say
an estimate is free and the cost of doing business- no!
I charge for my time even when doing estimates. The fee is nominal but it weeds out a lot of aggravation.
I sometimes, not often, will apply the estimate fee in the bid. This a very fair and accepted way of doing business where I live.
Most people calling me have already seen my work or know someone who has. This alleviates some anxiety and starts us off on a good footing.
The quality of my work and my work ethic supports this.
In agreement with Tommy,"I owe no one anything for free as to the cost of doing business."
This infers that those that do business with me bear the cost of the free estimates for the ones that don't. Wrong!
Edited 7/30/2003 3:05:46 PM ET by Bob
I love these threads - they are so predictable, yet I still feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in as a homeowner....can't..stop..myself...
If somebody knocked on my door with "I'm doing your neighbor's (roof, soffit, gutters, driveway) and noticed that yours could use some work", I wouldn't even think twice about thanking them kindly and shutting the door. That is a frequent practice of scam artists, and my neighbor probably won't find out the guy is a scheister until too late. If he's actually good, my neighbors will brag about him to me and he doesn't need to knock on my door.
Getting referrals from friends and family for some of these tasks can be next to impossible, unless you live in a tract where all of the roofs die at nearly the same time, and yours is not the first. When my roof needed doing I looked at the roofs of the few neighbors I did know. On one side there was a tarp roof (see "World's greatest hack job" thread), and the other had a leaky metal shingle roof by a roofer who was out of business. Many of the other roofs in my somewhat poorer neighborhood were in various stages of disrepair and could offer me no insights into area businesses. So enter into getting estimates for the roof. One guy told me that he could put composite shingle directly on my skip sheathing, those 3 inch gaps between the boards wouldn't be a problem. My mind's eye saw singles sagging into the skips and looking like crap fairly quickly. The next 2 man team looked like they just got their driver's license yesterday and told me they couldn't keep the japanesque upturns at the corners of my roof and it would just be flat and plain like the rest of the roofs of the world. That seemed to me like inexperience talking - "we just started our own business 1 (week/month/year) ago and have never done a roof like yours so we can't do it."
Well darnit, should I limit myself to these disappointing estimates because they cost the people who did them money (this is for you Tommy B)? Or should I call somebody else, because it is my house and I want the roof to last at least as long as I own it, without sacrificing too much of what little style it has. In fact, I've found that it takes about 1/2 dozen calls to contractors to get 1 returned call. And then when they show up, many times they returned your call because they were hungry for business, and they were hungry because there is something wrong with them. So who cares how many calls it takes to find the guy that will do my job properly? I almost always end up going with the highest or close to the highest quote, and I can honestly say that if you get what you pay for it is a wonder that more houses aren't falling down, cause I have been disappointed time after time.
Most homeowners just want to pay a fair price to get decent quality work. Some, like me, are willing to pay more than fair to guarantee decent quality work. Some, like me, are used to paying more because our jobs are smaller (drywall one or two rooms rather than a whole house, for example). Many of us have been burned in some way and are cautious. Remember though, some, like me, are also willing to pay for an estimate (can we call it an evaluation?) as long as it looks like you put the time into making it that we are paying for, as opposed to plugging square footage into a spreadsheet and coming up with a single number. The whole system of matching contractor with homeowner seems prone to failure from my point of view, and there oughta be a better way.
At the risk of decreasing the predictability of this thread for you, I'm going in a slightly different direction, again with the purpose of educating the consumer.
Most homeowners just want to pay a fair price to get decent quality work. Some, like me, are willing to pay more than fair to guarantee decent quality work. Some, like me, are used to paying more because our jobs are smaller (drywall one or two rooms rather than a whole house, for example).
The crux is what is fair. Now you go saying your willing to pay more than fair. What does that mean? To me it implies the notion that the lowest price determines fair. A more reputable company and your paying more than fair? Ask me how I arrived at my price and I'll tell you. But I would agree that alot of guys can't. So if I am three times the lowest price out of 'n' bids is my price unfair if I show you how I arrived at it?
Would it shock homeowners to know that I am trying to maximize profits at their expense? Like any successful company does?
Tom
Fair is that you make a profit and I get a job that is better than I could do myself in the same amount of time. I certainly would not take the lowest bid into account determining that - I don't want the guy with the best price, I want the best guy for the price. Usually the bottom-feeders on price are down there for a reason. Taking into account that you drop the outliers - way too high (say more than double the next highest price) or low compared to the rest - and then average the rest of the bids, fair is probably somewhat higher than this average, since lots of the guys in the bottom half are there because they don't know how to estimate properly. I'm willing to pay more than this number if it means the job will be done right. And at this point I have pretty low standards, so I'm easy to please. For example, the drywall hanger who pieced stuff together so badly around a door (he used like 8 pieces around the door, with big gaps) that it took a week for the first mud to dry, I'd like to cut that down to 3 days or so. Or the landscaper who took his trencher about 8 inches away from the trunk of a walnut and cut a primary root, damaging my beautiful tree. I'd have swung a little wider. Same guy took it through a brick wall so he could cut across a marked septic. Or the electrician who took 2 full days to hang 3 track lights and 2 pendant lights with full access to the attic above where he was hanging them and easy access from there to the circuit board. Or even the plumber who pieced together 3 inch elbow joints to vent my water heater. None of these guys was the low bid. Do I think I got my money's worth? No. But my point is my expectations are now pretty low, so you don't have to work very hard to exceed them.
But, of course, since we aren't supposed to call too many folks for estimates, the determination of what is fair is kind of hard to figure out when you are just an ignorant homeowner. Every time this discussion comes up I hear, "Oh, you should get referrals from friends and neighbors, then you won't need estimates". Well, duh, do people think that isn't the first place we look? But for every professional job around here there are about 10 homeowner jobs, so the referrals just aren't there. The one contractor that I was able to find who came highly recommended by both homeowners and professionals ended up being a little too popular. He subbed out my job to somebody else (without telling me) and they screwed it up. It's scary and difficult trying to pick somebody to work on any aspect of your home, and the whole estimate process sucks.
Edited to say: if you show me how you arrived at your price, I'll pay 2, 3, or 10 times the next highest. The other bids won't matter if I get what I want.
Edited 7/30/2003 7:29:31 PM ET by aimless
Granted like contractors, all customers are not created equal. When a potential customer hands me specs and drawing obviously done for free from a previous estimate, I got a problem. Customers that think nothing of mentioning, numerous times they are getting at least 3 estimates are not a high priority. Heck I have a 1 in 3 chance of getting the job. That's not so exciting, would you jump for joy if your doc said you have 1 in 3 chance of making through surgery?
So to my potential customers while you are out shopping my price all over town, Picking my brain for every last bit of free information,and going over the detailed bid beating me over the head with "I can get it cheaper at Home Depot". I got another job from a customer who did none of this and they are happy as a clam and you're stuck listening to my machine.
So call the high priced company with the fancy smelling salesman, driving the new SUV. He has time to wade through your minutia, I don't. I'm busy taking care of a sure thing, the long shots just don't produce.
__________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
You sound like you have a pretty good understanding of the situation aimless, although I still have a problem with you determination of fair.
I'll give you and example.
I've been through maybe thirty employees. Heck, even I can't do everything myself. What with fielding phone calls, running on appointements, estimating, billing, writing contracts, ordering materials, hiring and supervising subcontractors, hiring employees, training them, doing payroll, all the government reporting, keeping my insurances current, prospecting, developing promotional materials, documenting jobs, maintaining equipment, buying equipment, etc.
So I hire a guy, train him for a year or two, and he already has 10 years experience. But I want to teach him my way, it takes a while. My primary concern is that he is as thorough as me, and as good. Now, can I make him as fast as me? Maybe, maybe not. Point is all of them are different, as all people are. This is a problem with estimating. And a problem with your determination of fair. How long you or I take to do a given task has nothing to do with cost or profit, or any bid for that matter. Thats the problem with competitive bidding, all of us want the best work, but we have some idea, whether from competitive bids or our own experience of what a fair price is.
I have to guess at who will actually be doing the work, their relative speed and proficiency, and price from there. Their will always be some cushion in there. But I have to make a profit on every job. I don't plan to win some and lose some. So essentially, my "fair" price has nothing to do with anyone elses. And its still fair to you, because I will be there in the future. Part of fair in my opinion is being there to warranty the work should a problem ever develop. Another component of fair would be having the experience and people to get it right the first time so that the warranty component doesn't become an issue.
It is for these and other reasons, that cost plus and t/m agreements are really beneficial to the whole process, but homeowners would never agree to the rate that you need to charge, at least in my area. T/m is kind of like communism, everyting about it is perfect except that it doesn't work.
I have another theory about construction and estimating. It has been my experience that most customers do not want to see a contractor making more than them. And this goes right down to factory level workers. What do you think about that?Tom
"Now, can I make him as fast as me? Maybe, maybe not. "
I just knew you'd pick on the time thing! I said that because given an eternity to screw it up, rip it out, do it over, repeat as needed, I can eventually get an acceptable job. I expect a professional to be able to do the commonplace right the first time, and to at least have a better idea than me on the out of the ordinary, so they will get it done faster.
I like your definition of 'fair' and think you just have a more explicit definition than I do. Things like 'doing it right the first time' are by their very nature speedier because you won't have to do it 20 times to get it right! As for cushion, I have no problem with that and think that a fair price includes it. It just doesn't include goudging.
As for:
"It has been my experience that most customers do not want to see a contractor making more than them. And this goes right down to factory level workers. What do you think about that?"
I honestly don't care how much money you make. If you show up for the initial meeting in a late-model Mercedes and a $4,000 suit I might think you were a bit of a goudger, or I might think you were just really good at managing your business, depends on my mood. However, if you show up in an equally expensive work truck with $4,000 worth of well-used and well-cared for tools hanging off your belt I would put a mental plus next to your name. So go ahead, get rich. Almost everyone whose posts I've read on this site deserves to.
I do handyman work and light remodeling. Bathroom remodels and electric service changes are my big jobs. And I bet 25% of the work I have done since being in business (3+ years) has been a complete or partial re-do of someone elses work. So my point is that I agree there are certainly unscrupulus contractors and hacks out there.
However I think you might also agree, if you think about how some of your family and friends handle business, that there are more than a few homeowners of the type Tommy has described.
Case in point, did face lifts on 2 bathrooms and a few small jobs for a local homeowner in my town. Both educated proffesional people, upscale neighborhood a nice 40 year old stone house, 4 BR 4 bath. Loved my work. Told me how great it was to have someone who is organized, cleans up at the end of the day and who works within the schedule of there lives. Really raved about the fact that each day I stated my goals, worked till I reached them or beyond and reported progress daily. Will call me back for sure! They called 18 months later. Wanted a price on some tile work in their entry way. Do I do this kind of work? Sure! While measuring he says "so is it cheaper to have you do it or the local carpet place?"
I said I wasn't sure but to price it with both of us. Then added 20% to my bid. No need for loyalty there as its a one way street. And I am sure every contractor could give you 10 storys the same. So, its a 2 ways street. Guess we will all just have to tough it out. Oh, and yes I maximize my profits at the customers expense. Thats how I stay in business, like all other businesses. DanT
Let me just say "I feel your pain". Honestly, as a contractor we suffer the same way. When work slows down do I advertise my business in the paper, door to door fliers or the yellow pages? I always get responses, but like your characters showing up on your doorstep offering services, I get a lot of wasteful pestering.
Word of mouth is the best way to know then, follow-up checking their referrals.
I give preferences to regular clients and even adjust my estimates down for the ones that refer me most. I don't let them know this but I feel I should show an appreciation.
One of my clients used me once 2 years ago. I did some repair work on her home on a Saturday, I was very busy during that time. I almost decided not to do the work, mainly because of time and that it was simple handyman work. But she has refered me more, talked to more people, than anyone. That little job has brought me a lot of work.
The only one that has talked more about me is a client that was my most difficult and she says to everyone she meets, how awful I am.
Now if I can get these two little old ladies alone to battle it out - aw... never mind.
Anyway my point is it's tough on both sides. For you to find someone you can trust or for me to find someone loyal who brags on you often.
Still no complaints I do stay busy.
Sorry, I don't live in your neighborhood.
I wonder would I be a good guy or a bad guy?
Edited 7/30/2003 5:20:35 PM ET by Bob
(( Free estimates are what’s called a cost of doing business. Just think if I applied for a job and refused an interview or demanded that I be paid for that the job interview. Do you think I’d ever get a job? ))
Would you show up to an interview and find out to get the job you had to work for 6 weeks for nothing. Before some one decided to give you the job and pay you.
That is what you are doing every time you want free estimates.
Interview means you ask the person question that will indicate that s/he can do the job. It does NOT mean s/he works for you before you and put that person on the payroll.
asennad... your idea of what is expensive and the contractors idea are not the same..
is the job being quoted at 3 x the least price the expensive one?.. or is the cheap one being quoted by someone who doesn't know the cost of being in business..
i would call you back..
but it would be to tell you that i am not interested in your work.. in as polite a manner as i could..
you are a tire kicker.. you will end up with the job your deserve.. a cheap one.. or you may get lucky. and get a good mechanic to give you a good job at the expense on HIS family..
there is no such thing as a free lunch... once you eliminate the unscrupulous.. you are left with good contractors who are trying their best to make a living.. some are experienced enough to know the cost of doing business.. some are not..
if you want a good job you can either hire the expensive one, or hope you get lucky at someone else's expenseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Contractors are often great when it comes to the work they do, but not so with the business they run (sorry guys, I know it is not true across the board...). I would not take it personally, but I might take it as a reflection of how the job will go should you eventually get a call-back and hire them.
I think people under estimate the value of the "I got your call, but don't have time to _____ right now" call. If you call a contractor specifically referred to you, at least that call says that it is time to find someone else to do the job, rather than waiting for a call back that may never come. Same goes once the job has started. A call to say, "I got your message about _____, I am waiting to hear back from the supplier" is better than not returning the call for a week because you have not yet heard back from that supplier. At least that way the customer knows the call was received and some action is being taken. For me, anyway, it is all about good communication.
-Jeff
1) Jeff has nailed it EXACTLY.
2)Asennad spoke volumes when he said that he knew what a fair price is because a roofing supplier( who wouldn't refer a good contractor by the way) told him what material and labor costs to expect!
Let me get this------a clerk working the counter of a supply house----WHO HASN'T EVEN SEEN THE JOB is the guy who determines a fair price? What a laugh---some expert.Probably the reason he is aclerk instead of a contractor----he doesn't know the myriad things that go into the total price BESIDES materials and labor.
If ANY of my suppliers pulled a stunt like this they would have recieved the last nickel from me as a customer.
Of course maybe the clerk is looking out for his good contractors by NOT refering them to this guy!
OK..
You've asked why contractors don't call ya back...
I've read thru this....
Wanna know?
I do.
They don't like you as a potential customer.
I'm not here to hurt your feelings... so I won't go into detail.
If the face to face is anything like the keyboard....
That'd be my guess.
Explains why the big companies submitted prices......they guy submitting the price isn't the guy that has to come out and work with you.
Then again.....I've been wrong before....
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
NOW that was well put Jeff. You are truly a man of few words.
Tom
Now I've been wrong before? NOt this time Jeff.
Jeff!
You sly dog, I think you got it right!View Image
I feel your pain. I think it depends on your area. Around metro DC you are lucky if your subcontractors show up, and those are your best friends. Quality work is rare, and even those that are quality, usually are either quality in comparison to others, or do a very nice job, but wrongly (siding- dead level, nice details, beautiful job etc. . . and tyvek/tarpaper reverse lapped behind it!). Seven calls for a few callback and maybe one or two estimates is about right.
Really, people, how much does a standard 5/12 roof with no details cost to estimate? Most people I've seen in the trade can look at such a roof, spend 5 mins and give me a number. I'm not talking a full remodel or complicated hip roof. Then again, why should anyone around here worry because they already have all the work they can handle?!? In the high growth areas, I think it will be about 20 years until the dust settles and the cream rises to the top- and the you can actually call someone and get a response!
Psst...
here a dirty little secret,
We've got a list.
You're on it
It works a little like the new govt required "Do not call" list.
Truly?
Jeff said it well. You are telegraphing by your words and manners that you are shopping for lowball price and that you will be a pain to work for. Sometimes I work for people who are ultra picky or a pain in some other way, but I charge extra.
How do we know this?
After dealing with hundreds of customers over many years, we develope instincts...
And we remember to check the list..
Excellence is its own reward!
Boy I am a little surprised by the responses I am getting. I started this thread thinking what a pain in the butt voice mail has become and how some contractors don’t want to bother with small jobs.
Didn’t expect the tirade of insults from whinny contractors.
If I am being weeded out because I leave a message like †Hi my name is Joe Blow and I would like to get an estimate for a new roof. I live at 123 Main, my number is 555-5555. Thanks.†Then I don’t know how you get any work at all. Call me back and tell me that you are busy is all I ask!
It sounds to me like some people feel they should be paid to bid on my job. In what industry is that standard practice? You are getting paid - by winning the bid!
As a homeowner before I hire somebody I want to meet and discuss with the contractor the details of the job. I often ask for referrals from friends and neighbors, but how often do you have your roof replaced or brick work done? I want to know things like the guy is properly insured and licensed, what sort of warranty is there on the work and materials, etc. Is getting three estimates really asking too much?
Last year when I had brick work done I got three or four estimates and everybody came in with vastly different ideas of how many bricks needed replacement. The guy I went with did a great job but took nearly three months to do a job which he spent a combined total of about 7 days on. I never said a word to him but I am glad I didn’t pay the full price until the work was completed.
I am not trying looking for the lowest price but a fair price. The contractor I called who does the most advertising told me that they try and limit their work to the high end neighborhoods and charge a premium price. I am not going to pay twice the price everybody else asks for just to line his pockets.
"It sounds to me like some people feel they should be paid to bid on my job. In what industry is that standard practice?"
Mine. In my former career as a computer consultant, we regularly charged a fee for a bid. A bid requires a lot of thought and understanding of the problem at hand, and charging a fee weeds out the folks who want you to figure out their problem for them and then try to do it themselves. I can see many parallels in the construction industry and have no problem with the idea of paying for somebody's time.
So aimless, did you pay upfront for the realtor's time when you bought your house?
No, but I didn't solicit a bid from the realtor either.
Realtors work on commission rather than task or time based pay. Your question is like asking whether I want to pay a salesperson up front for helping me choose a sweater. "May I help you?", "Yes, I need a red sweater.". "That should take about 2 minutes of my time, it will be 20 cents if you want to do it." It would be fine by me if they wanted to move to a 'pay by the hour' system rather than a commission, but I think you'd get some argument from them.
Unskilled retail is a poor example. There are lots of complicated jobs which involve large sums of money that require expertise, legwork, expense and effort before the payday, real estate sales being a good example. Yes, they work by commission. But who says they don't have task based pay? Their task is to sell your house or find you one to buy. Sounds like a task to me. And the fact that you didn't solicit a bid from them only reinforces my argument. They have even less certainty, less control over the situation than a contractor does.
You are correct, it does take expertiese, knowlege, and leg-work. But it is still an inappropriate comparison to construction or computing because that is NOT the way the realty business currently works. If I had solicited bids from realtors they'd have rolled their eyes at each other and failed to return my calls. Unlike computing and construction, the realtor can not guarantee that the task can even be accomplished. If the realtor was willing to give a guarantee of accomplishing the task (finding me a house, selling my house), many folks would be willing to pay an up front fee. However, that isn't the way the system works for realtors, and far be it from me to buck the system. I was merely pointing out that there are industries where an up-front fee for a bid is a normal part of business and not a surprise to anyone.
Incidentally - my realtor made out very well. I found my home at an MLS listing on the internet and told him I wanted to see it. He spent another 10 minutes filling my name into the standard form used in my state and another 30 at the title office.
But it is still an inappropriate comparison to construction or computing because that is NOT the way the realty business currently works.
Analogies are tricky things. The person making the comparison sees some similarity, enough to feel the analogy is worthwhile. But frequently someone receiving the analogy only sees the dissimilarities and throws out the baby with the bath water.
I realize that RE sales is not an exact one to one fit to the topic at hand. But I was responding to the very vocal comments by contractors that, dammit, I worked hard on that estimate, I put in time and effort and I should be paid for it upfront. My analogy to RE sales, or any commission based sales, is only valid for that point, that upfront effort should be rewarded with upfront pay. There are many jobs where that is not true. There are many jobs where upfront effort is only rewarded at the end of the job and many times is not rewarded at all. In that way RE sales is similar to the common complaint that contractors make here.
I have absolutely no idea of what you are trying to do with the comparison to a real estate agent.
First they are compensated ONLY if and when the deal actually closes. They can show some one a houses for a month until they get one that buyer likes. Spend more time negotiating a contract, get inspections, etc, etc. and then a month later find that there is some problem and the deal falls through.
A couple of months worth of effort without any compenstation at all.
Now does that compare with the roofing contractor that has less than an hour, probably on a lot of simple house much less, in preparing a bid.
And a people do negotiate rates with the real estate agents. Most of the time they con't get anything reduced for several reasons. But sometimes they do and in fact there are brokers that just do reduced rate deals where they make the seller do the showing and things like that.
And one should interview and get references from a real estate agent just like they would from a contractor. Because they are going to be stuck with them for typically 3-6 months.
And real estate agents often do "freebees" as a way of marketing there services. Those are free market analysis.
Bill, first you say you have no idea what I am trying to do with my RE comparison and then you proceed to make my point in a very well worded and thought out message.
"Analogies are tricky things."
I thought that you where trying to show that contractors SHOULD BE PAID for estimates.
Your last statement cleared up what point you where trying to make.
And BTW, anything that gets completely confused in these discussions is that there is a big difference between an estimate for trade work, an designing a whole project, and service work.
I would not pay a penny for an estimate for a roof replace or water heater replace. But if I called a roof to fix an unknow leak and he told me that he rates where $50 for the first 1/2 hour and $50 for each hour after that I would be willing to pay that. And if I was doing a whole kitchen I would be willing to pay for a design AFTER I was convinced that the person doing it did the quality and type of work that I wanted.
Ak,
Real estate is a poor example. I would love to put the selling of my house out for competitive bid. It doesn't work that way.
The only thing you have to do to sell a house is get licensed and be able to open a door. Alot of them can't do much more than that. I have never seen a realtor actually try and sell a house. I think they mostly sell themselves and show houses.
I'd love to see realtors go on competitive bid.Tom
The only thing you have to do to sell a house is get licensed and be able to open a door. Alot of them can't do much more than that. I have never seen a realtor actually try and sell a house. I think they mostly sell themselves and show houses.
Can't you see millions of disgruntled homeowners who have had a bad experience with contractors saying the same thing?
"The only thing they have to do to be a contractor is get licensed and open a door. A lot of them can't do much more than that. I have never seen a contractor actually try and do a good job building a house. I think they mostly sell themselves and drive around in their trucks."
Boy I am a little surprised by the responses I am getting.
I'm not. These threads pass through Breaktime regularly. Usually it is a homeowner that has had a bad experience with contractors, or several bad experiences. They are a little peeved, the peevishness shows, and the sharks start feeding. Why? Because the people who respond have also had bad experiences with customers, they're peeved, the peevishness shows, and the cycle continues. Usually the two sides talk past each other (kind of like the political wars in the Tavern), and no one learns anything.
Sometimes the homeowner, if they stick around long enough, will learn something about the travails of being a contractor dealing with the public. If they really aren't total jerks they listen and learn. Unfortunately, I've rarely seen the same consideration and willingness to learn from the other side. I rarely see a contractor stop and consider that maybe, just maybe, the other guy has a valid point. It's just circle the wagons and start firing.
Let me give an example. DanT is peeved that a repeat customer asks, "Are you cheaper than the carpet store?" He takes it as an insult. Why doesn't he take it as an opportunity to sell himself? I can see him saying in reply, "Well, it all depends on what you mean by cheap..." and then explaining the long term savings they get when dealing with a quality minded, reputable, skilled craftsman (like DanT) instead of the short term savings and later problems you get when dealing with franchised bottom feeders.
So..........you didn't think the previous work, compliments, and satisfaction was enough "selling myself"? I guess, and maybe in a bull headed sort of way I felt we were past the preliminary get to know each other round and were on to the trusting relationship.
And maybe we are as he felt comfortable asking that question. But at that point I felt as though maybe the relationship thing wasn't going to happen so I might as well focus on the money. And who knows, maybe I will still get the job. But at a price I am thrilled with.
One thing about the pre pricing, free estimate deal. Other trades have things such as flat rate manuels etc to price from. Now I have a couple of programs to assist me also but houses are not stamped out 98% the same like Chevys so its difficult to quickly and effeciently price something in advance. And I agree that just because the roofing supplier thinks he know what the "going rate" is, if he has not looked at the job he hasn't a clue.
I am glad ASENNAD got a brick mason at a fair price and the going rate, that premium price guy might have gotten the work done in a few days. DanT
"So..........you didn't think the previous work, compliments, and satisfaction was enough "selling myself"? "
When I saw your first message my though was that you that you needed to sell yourself for that job.
And to answer this question, no I don't think that your prvious work was enough marketing.
Isn't the one of the most tenets of marketing, reptition, repitition, and more repitition?
You just needed to reinforce the marketing that you had already done.
When asked for a comparision with the other people price you could have commented something like.
"I don't know what there rates are, but I would like to remind you how neat, accurate (I don't remember what there terms where) when I did that last job."
This is what I find so great about this site, the opportunity to learn.
This is what I've learned from Arsenad. I am going to bid 3 to 7 jobs for guys like him so this is what I'm going to do from now on, and I'm serious. On his job for example, it sounds like I will spend:
1 hour travel time.
1 hour consultation
1-2 hours bidding.
1 hour preparing quote and contract documents.
1 hour travel time to hand deliver quote and contract documents ( this is probably how he would want it)
Total 5.5 hours quote time @ $65.00/hr.= 357.50
Multiplied by avg. 5 quotes/job= $1787.50 added to proposal price.
Thanks for the education. Guys this is a key concept! Factor this into your competitive bid jobs, or you not getting paid.
Tom
Edited 7/31/2003 9:35:50 PM ET by Tommy B.
Hope you are the lowest bidder Tom cause that's the only way you'll get the job, and don't be tardy on those return calls either.
The way I see it if we charged for bids and wasted phone calls I could sell my tools and make a good living never actually building anything. Damn I might even be able to take my nephew fishing.
__________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
“This is what I've learned from Arsenad. I am going to bid 3 to 7 jobs for guys like him so this is what I'm going to do from now on, and I'm serious. On his job for example, it sounds like I will spend:
1 hour travel time.
1 hour consultation
1-2 hours bidding.
hour preparing quote and contract documents.
1 hour travel time to hand deliver quote and contract documents ( this is probably how he would want it)
Total 5.5 hours quote time @ $65.00/hr.= 357.50
Multiplied by avg. 5 quotes/job= $1787.50 added to proposal price.
Thanks for the education. Guys this is a key concept! Factor this into your competitive bid jobs, or you not getting paid. Tomâ€
That’s exactly what you should do. Although nobody ever spent more than ten minutes at my place and I only call local roofers. If you had an employee doing the work you’d have to pay him so pay yourself. I never said a “Free Estimate†is actually free and without value. It’s a marketing tool which is defined in any business textbook as a cost of doing business and should be deductible.
Somebody else said that they had a photo album of work that they had done. If a guy showed up at my place with that, a copy of the standard contract they had, shingle samples or other roofing choices I’d be impressed. Usually I get a figure scribbled down on the back of a business card and no references. (I called a reference for a painter once and it turned out to be his mother)
There is the assumption being made that all contractors are on the same page or are just as good as each other. I know form experience they are not. I’d be stupid not to try and weed out the chaff.
Take my job for example small flat roof 130 sq ft. pretty straightforward. I have to call guys I don’t know from Adam. I get three bids in the $900 range and one at $2500. I did my homework by calling the roofer supplier to see what roofing material I should use. Although they would not recommend a roofer, as they don’t see the end product, they were dead on with mean price range.
I am not interested in the lowest bid. I want someone who is experienced to do the job, provide a warranty for his or her work and be there in the future - should any thing happen. I have not said nor implied that the lowest price is all that matters - knocking off the high bid out of the average range does. I find that most reputable companies in order to remain competitive and stay in business charge a market rate and anything less than that makes me question the integrity of the bid.
Another thing that bugged me was the highest bidder spent more time talking about financing the job than the job itself.
Bill,
Thanks for the input. I lack in salesmanship. Actually my wife says I lack in tolerance of people once I lose patience with them. Character failure on my part I guess. Anyway I am currently reading a book which includes some marketing areas so maybe that will be a help. I had not heard of the idea of repitition. I will keep it in mind for the future though. Thanks again. DanT
Dan,
Don't tell me that it didn't feel like a kick in the teeth when, after doing all that work for that client, he said what he said to you regarding your price and the floor store's price.
It may sound strange to some out there, but after you do a good amount of work for any client, you do feel as though you've proven yourself. You've shown that you are fair, provide good quality service, and are respectful of the clients wishes. When a client comes back comparing your price, all the enthusiasm and good feeling is drained in one second.
Nino,
You are absolutely right! I did feel sh-t on. And I am sure that is why my reaction was to raise my price. I try to keep my eye on the business ball but I am like most contractors in the desire to provide people with what they want. I want them to be happy and tell me so. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, well ok not that but I feel good about what I do and it certainly makes the other negative issues go away for awhile.
And that brings on another point. I really have to kick start myself to do a call back to someone that I feel I can't possibly satisfy or that I am going to have to debate the entire job with as they feel they already know all the issues and costs involved. Maybe that is how the contractors felt about Asennad. I still do call as I think we should but it certainly is an area that I have to jump start myself. DanT
So..........you didn't think the previous work, compliments, and satisfaction was enough "selling myself"?
No, I don't. Your pride has been wounded because someone talked price? Get real Dan. This is business not dating.
Your customers are always going to be interested in price. For you to act like a spurned suitor when they actually ask a question about it is just setting yourself up for anger, resentment and problems. So the guy asked about price? Big deal. You're now the marketer and salesman for your operation and you sell yourself yet again. Instead of seizing the moment to further your business you smolder inside and try to get even with someone who you admit was a good customer. You not only lost an opportunity you destroyed a relationship.
Hmmm, well I guess you have summed it up neatly. I am human, I may have lost a customer. I already went through my self admission of areas of failure so your goading me will not get me to say more. Thanks for your concern and analysis of my thought process. DanT
I think you're kind of missing Dan's point.
In your heart, you sometimes reach a point where you feel the good service and quality work that you have provided over the years to that client is worth having that client giving you the benefit of the doubt, that the client will trust that the price that you're giving him is a fair price.
When that client questions your price or compares you with some shlock discounter, you come to the realization that all of the effort that you put in towards establishing goodwill and a long relationship is left hanging on a single, narrow, thread; he just hires me because I'm cheap.
So,
It didn't matter that I squeezed him in ahead of somebody else
It didn't matter that I fixed up those two other pieces of molding for free while I installed the door because I had extra material and...they just looked bad.
It didn't matter that I came here to do some work, but I was locked out by his wife who set the alarm and I couldn't get in and wasted a half day.
I"m hired only because I was cheap.
Ditto to all of that. Thanks. DanT
I"m hired only because I was cheap.
Nino, there is a huge difference between cheap and being concerned about price. Almost all customers are concerned about price; the ones you want to avoid are cheap. It's part of your job to know the difference. Is Dan absolutely sure that his customer's question was a sure fire expression of his cheapness and disdain for Dan or was it merely his was of broaching the issue of price?
In your heart, you sometimes reach a point where you feel...
Again I say, this is business, not dating. Get your self esteem from doing a great job, as a businessman and a craftsman. Save the hurt feelings of disrespect for your ex.
Edited 8/4/2003 11:57:29 AM ET by AK373
I went to a high selling class once. What I remember is the man asking if anyone had correct change for a dollar. Two people out of 200 looked . He then asked if anyone had a dollar in change for ten dollars. An out burst arrupted laughing and applaulding because they figgured his point. But he didnt get the change for a dollar. Then he said " I will give 20 dollars to the first person who has two dollars change. " He had his change in under a minute.
If you dont gain from that story , you wont get my point. Its the way he presented himself on the last sentence.
You dont have a clue what getting calls in the evening are like interrupting family time. For some there are 10 calls to make after they have already put in 10 hours. The wife needs to talk , and so do the kids. Chores need to be done , etc. Your call better be serious , because I can move on to the next. You have a misconception of free bids. I get calls from people I expect to hire me , or others that tell me to do it. At any rate , if they are talking and I detect pricing bottom figgures for example , my time is not a good bet to spend on that type of call. I think those contractors were tipped off in some way. Judgement call. Maybe they have heard of you or know you , or have checked you out between the first call and the time for the second call. What ever .
My time is my time and its up to me how I spend it. You arent in their place to judge because you still dont get it. A majarioty vote usually means something deeper that what you are admitting .
Either call them back or call someone else . If that doesnt work , I would like you to do the job your self. By not calling back , they have given you their answer. I dont agree with it , but it was their judgement call. Many feel like nothing said is better than laying it on the line and upsetting you. You could possibly run your mouth about them and that would not be profitable. So , they dont call back.
I remember being called by a contractor to bid a job. I went to look and didnt call him back. He called me and I told him I wasnt interrested in doing the job. I then had to tell him why. He never ever called me again or reccomended me to anyone. I would have been better off to have not told him anything!!!!!
It depends on what side of the coin you are on . It depends on a persons own judgement , for it usually is their own to make .
From the typing , I would not have put any time in your call.
Tim Mooney
Edited 7/31/2003 3:22:01 PM ET by Tim Mooney
Ya Buddy,
You complain about "Whinny contractors" who are simply giving you an honest answer but you are the one who came here to whine in the ifrst place.
Then, "It sounds to me like some people feel they should be paid to bid on my job."
That's right too. I weed out tire kickers on the phone. I set up an interview. We interview each other and discuss that broader aspects of the job and an approximate budget. If we like each other, my time on the clock begins. I'll elaborate more in a following post to BJ - if you are actually interested like him in learning something..
Excellence is its own reward!
Didn’t expect the tirade of insults from whinny contractors.
What you are getting is honest feed back from contractors who are all trying to balance working on jobs from bids they have already won, families and future customers.
If your message is what you stated, you would be low on my call back list......you missed a lot of details in the message. What kind of roof do you want? Where are you available to meet with the contractor? Would you like them to come by anytime whether you are home or not? Details are important, the more detail you give me the higher you are on my list because the phone call I have to make is shorter and lets me get on to the things that important in the evenings when I have time to make calls......those things are household chores, spending time with my spouse and children.....and the paperwork that goes with my business......some of these things are the same things you want to do with your free time.
Do I expect to be compensated for a bid? Well now did I drive to your home? Did that cost me anything? Will ti take my time to figure the bid? and deliver it to you? is my time worth something of course it is. Do I know that you have 3 or 4 others coming to bid the job? Yes I do......if I win the bid great.....you get quality workmanship; if I don't is my time then worth nothing? No its not.
"If your message is what you stated, you would be low on my call back list......you missed a lot of details in the message. What kind of roof do you want? Where are you available to meet with the contractor? Would you like them to come by anytime whether you are home or not? Details are important, the more detail you give me the higher you are on my list because the phone call I have to make is shorter and lets me get on to the things that important in the evenings when I have time to make calls......those things are household chores, spending time with my spouse and children.....and the paperwork that goes with my business......some of these things are the same things you want to do with your free time."
Now that is the only thing that has been posted in these some 52 message that really added any light to the subject.
I can see for a someone in a primary trade (roofing, plumbing, electrical, painting, and the like) some idea of the scope and size of the project will be very usefull for them to tell if this job might fit in for them.
Of course this is a long thread. It would be at least the same length over here in Germany if we had such an excellent forum.
What I think:
If I get a phone call from somebody to look at work whom I don´t know - I ask them how they got my phone#. Since I never advertised (except a reg. listing in the yellow pgs./internet) they will have to come up with a referral. Only when desperate will I look at a job from a total stranger!
When somebody shops for price and does not know what the little and big differences between several estimates are, what will he look for - the bottom line.
So no job for me - seems I´m 10% more expensive than market median. So why waste his/her and my time?
People ask me (cold-on the primary phone call): So how much do you charge for the sq.meter of this or that, a new roof.... . My standard answer is: How much does a car cost?
I learned from an experienced and rich homeowner a good lesson: The architect on the job asked me for an estimate for installing 18th century French flooring cassettes into a mansion.
When on the site the client, the architect and I stand and eye each other, but before I could open my mouth for a quote the client said:
"I understand this material is precious and expensive, I trust you with it - but only like this (my way): Your little number is made up this way -
1. How many hourts does it take to put it down
2.What if something happens (these people are picky)
3. add "Bellevue" subcharge (a very rich neighboorhood)
4.add "got enough to do" without this headache
5.add factor .5 for the headache compensation
=arrive at price.
He was right.
Interesting to hear from the other side of the pond. (ocean)
In my industrial days I did a lot of work -- and millions of $ or DM with SMS AG (now SMS Demag AG) who build rolling mills and heavy industrial equipment.
We used to say that we never met anyone who didn't think they paid too much for SMS equipment, but we never met anyone who was unhappy with SMS equipment.
(they remain the best mill builder in the world)
Now back to building houses. We just moved in -- after three years as an owner / builder of a timber frame home.
Working with all of the contractors and subs on this job -- I almost never got completive bids. Mostly I wanted to meet face to face with the contractor / sub and talk through the job -- if I was happy with my view of their skill level, etc I went with them. In almost all of the cases we worked at some form of time and material. (I had done a lot of this in industrial construction and liked it.) In some cases this was not really time but a unit measure plus material i.e. square feet of hardwood flooring laid plus cost of material (they supply or I supply -- their choice). Now they could look at the job in detail and decide on unit price. Easy job, lower unit price hard job high unit price. I had a general feel for what made sense based on my industrial experience and unless they where out of line or it didn't feel right -- I went with them.
I was only really unhappy with one -- the painter -- and I screwed myself because I went against my better judgement and went with him. Live and learn.
In the industrial world we bid many jobs -- against a good defined spec. We often did not go with the low bidder because history and their safety record were very important to us.
For equipment we could always get a "free" bid -- but if your really want the best solution it paid to buy an engineering study. The price for these on a typical big job where $ 100,000 and the supplier often would spend much more doing the study than we paid them -- 3 to 4 times the amount. But the study sold the job with production and business management. Total price for these kinds of jobs ranged from $ 8 to 100 million. They got their extra money when they got the job -- but spending the money for the engineering study proved to both their management and ours that we were serious about the job.
deblacksmith
Hi Assannad and Everyone
I've just read through 41 messages and have a question for both the contractor and homeowner sides.
How detailed is the description of the job you want done?
After I bought a condo (or maybe it "possessed" me!), I started reading and watching videos on how buildings were constructed, techniques for handling certain situations, and so on. This gives me some idea of what is involved in a project. And why I need someone with those skills to do it for me.
If I itemize the particular things I want done and how - like dimensions, quality level of materials (ex. 30 year asphalt shingles), specific procedures (ex. nails vs. screws), time frame (urgent or not), known problems (ex. condo association has to approve of structural changes) - this should help level the field so that I get estimates for the same job, with the same quality.
If it isn't something the contractor wants to do because the job is too small or a technique or material is unfamiliar, this may be identified before wasted time is spent on estimating.
If there is a concern about my expectations, the contractor can bring it up before any conflicts arise, and possibly suggest alternatives (that would work in situation X, situation Y requires some alteration). After all, I'm a reader, not a do-er - experience teaches things books and videos may not have covered.
Basically, I think it behooves the owner to do some homework before asking for estimates, so he or she is clear about what the ultimate objective is and can determine if it is met at the end of the project. Ambiguity and lack of understanding probably cause as many problems as anything else.
BJ
Hi BJ,
You are touching on a number of items that are worth discussing and brought them up in a polite and intelligent manner. You do show some mius-understanding of the process by which most of us work. Your understanding seems to reflect the way a large government job happens. An Architect or cleric writes up a spec sheet to bid on. That's important for fairness with public money but half the time the spec writer has not been on the job and doesn't know what it truly needs. Sometimes it is a friend in the business who writes the specs and of course, he writes them the way he wants to do the job, even to specifying a material choice that he owns the local franchise on.
Pricing it out by a bidding war is the right way to get the lowest price, but do you really want the bottom feeder to be the one who works on your house? I have almost never done my work by bidding, except a few govt jobs and some roofs back in the darak ages when I was first starting out and didn't know any better.
In those govt bid jobs, nine times out of ten, there would be one with a way low price, about five or six within a percent of one another, and one with an extremly high price. That local governing entity finally enacted a rule that they would automatically throw out the lowest bid, if it was more than a cetain percent lower than the average because they had so many problems with lowball guys. I can specifically remember being called in to repair a roof that the low bidder di a year before, just prior to going out of business.
Here's how it works in my area. It's a lot like the Dating game!
You ask around for names of contractors who do the kind of work that you want done. One or two names will rise to the top. If mine is one of them, you call and ask if I might be interested in a _x_ job.If I am not tied up for the nexzt year already, we arrange a time to meet. If I am too busy, I will recommend the other area contractors that I believe are best qualified to handle it. But if I get the idea that you want three bids and are looking for a lowball price, I will do the other contractors a favour and not mention them.
Some people are always in a big hurry to get something done. A NYC archy came up here two years ago to do a job. Made it clear right up front that she expected completion by the following June. We were all tied up all winter already - every builder in the area. She pushed so hard that she pushed everyone away from her. It still hasn't been built.
Other times, they run into someone who is just starting out and hook up, since a fast start or low price is the highest priority, and sometimes they get lucky. Some new guys bring a lot of energy to a job, others let their inexperience ruin the whole shindig.
So anyway, if we get together and like each other after I show you my photo job book and you show me your project, I will start the design or planning and specs for a fee. You will benefit from my assistance in planning the job, because experience and knowledge are invaluable. You will be glad to be paying for this service because in checking me out, you heard other folks recount how well I did.
We'll come up with the best way of doing things to match your budget, and proceed to completion and our mutual satisfaction.
Some version of this can be worked out with other contractors ande in other places. i.e. I might be too busy to do the work but can advise you on specs for a fee. Then you find another contractor, or suppose that the job is a roof. If you start out writing the specs yourself, you might be requireing things that are not necessary, or forgetting things that should be done. If contractors are writing to the specs, then you have screwed yourself. Better to find recommended roofers (with insurance) and ask them for their advice on the best way to take care of it. Following along in that way will lead to a comfortable situation.
Kind of like my old man. When he moved to one of those retirement villages in Florida, he didn't know any builders there. He asked people here and there who they used for doing things around the house. He finally came to a gut feeling that he knew who he wanted to use and approached the guy to ask if he wouldn't mind coming around to look at a job. It was a small job for both of them but the start of a fifteen year long relationship. Whenever Dad had somethig that needed doing, he'd let the guy know , "Say, I like to _____ sometime this summer. Suppose you can work it in?"
Price was the last thing discussed. Guy kept coming back for more. He wasn't a schlock and Dad wasn't wealthy either. They had respect for each other.
If someone is only shopping for a price, he is showiung that he has no respect for the contractor's time or ability. From my point of view, it's a relationship. For anybody who doesn't believe that - try having a remodelor in you home for six months. The kids and dog may get to know him better than you..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
As a homeowner I can't disagree with you about one word that you wrote.
But I don't see how that relates to the problem at hand, where you are talking about a specific trade job such as replacing a roof or painting.
For the roofing these are jobs done every 20-30 years, typically and for the most homes there the only "consulting" is the selection of what grade and color of shingles that you want.
That is so different than do a room addition or kitchen remodel.
That is what I HATE about these discussions. While both side often have some valid points there are often discussion completely different issues.
Actually, it is pertinent, Bill. I was responding to BJ who asked about ####rdo invlving several different itmes in his condo or townhouse - not a singulary type job. But it works the same way with single trade situations too, to a large degree.
When I was a roofing specialist, I know that most of the time when somebody called me, they already knew that I was the one who owuld be doing the work. Preparing a proposal was just a formality. The selling process is where I established what type of shingles and how the work would be done - the specs. Upselling a higher quality for those who could afford it. All of what I said previous still applies, especially that the HO who is getting multiple bids and basing his decision primarily on price is going to get what he pays for. With roofing - single trade seling - I did include my estimation time in the overall price, but it was easy using unit costs and my modifiers, once I looked at the job and measured it. Wish I could estimate remo work as easy.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I've felt for a long time that you and a few others here really have your fingers on the pulse of what most of us are feeling.
Hi Piffin and everyone
I don't necessarily go with the lowest bidder. I go with the contractor (so far, I've only met guys) who makes sense and who understands what I want, which is why I try to clearly describe the job I have in mind. My ideas and specifications are only partial - the key points I think I want - and I could be wrong about some idea. If I mention it before the job, the contractor has the opportunity to explain any potential problems and solutions, rather than having a confused or upset client who didn't understand what was happening. Its those communication skills - when you do them well, things (may) go more smoothly. And I want to be sure that if I am asking more than one person for an estimate, both are estimating the same kind of job. If I go with a low bid for something which winds up wildly different from what I want, I'm not going to be a happy client.
This approach worked fairly well when I needed to replace the furnace and AC units in my condo. There were 3 different HVAC brands with decent reputations and friends recommended some different contractors. I only talked with 3 contractors and in describing what I thought I wanted, was given some information about how HVAC systems work, plus pros and cons of some options. I wound up using the middle priced vendor.
Most of my jobs have been smallish, so I know that unless I am flexible schedule-wise, I may never find someone to do it. I do tend to be somewhat relaxed about time-frames, compared with some home owners. For the non-time-critical jobs, I ask when might be a good time for them to fit me in the schedule - that way I'm not keeping them from bigger/longer jobs. That just seems courteous to me (I guess I'm a bit old-fashioned about some things). Plus, except for windows and doors, all mine are indoor jobs and can be done year-round, unlike building jobs where weather may put a halt to the work.
I have gotten referrals for contractors from friends who have had work done. Also, Columbus, Ohio has a couple home shows each year where numerous remodeling and building contractors are present. This has been a good way for me to meet several of them, see some photos of their work, and see if we get along okay. I've had the experience of working a job where I didn't mesh with the people there and it was hell. I sure don't want that to be the case between me and any contractor I hire! When I was looking for someone to do a sub-floor repair job prior to putting in finish flooring, several flooring companies gave me names of folks they used when the subfloor needed fixing first. I figured they would know who can do the job well enough for them to work on top of it. (That job has been on hold due to a housemate's medical problems. No sense adding to the chaos!)
I think it is reasonable for a contractor to be compensated for the time taken in creating an estimate. I also appreciate when it can be applied to the job. I suspect that some of you might find that you are so good at the estimating and planning tasks that you could even contract with other contractors to do that part for them, while they did the implementation part.
BJ
I'm so...oo confused.
I'm a HO. I own a home.
I'm an electrician who does the job professionally.
I think I will go out in the back yard and beat myself up.
If you are as proficient in that tassk as you are with words, the bnlood will low freely until you feel satisfaction in another job well done.
Unfortunately, the referenmce for it will be a lean one. You will be busy down at the police station making a complaint report agianst yourself while in lockup for assault. Your poor wife will have to bail one of you out while sitting lovingly at the side of the other one's hospital bed.
Should I send a get well card or a get out of jail free card?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Bet if he got all the cash in Free Parking it would make him feel better.
Edited 8/2/2003 12:13:42 AM ET by rez