Converting an old church in the midwest
Howdy folks; I bought a 110 year old brick church in Central Illinois (about 3 hours south of Chicago). This will become my home (and probably my tomb =). I’m spending a lot of time working through heating and cooling issues to make this a reasonable/affordable place to own and live in – right now I’m focused on the ceiling, roof and attic.
It’s got a 2yr old asphalt shingle roof, with no leaks. We’ve got an open floor plan in the sanctuary, with about 23′ to the ceiling. We removed the plaster and lath ceiling (there was lots of damage from a drop ceiling installed in the mid ’70s) and are ready to rebuild with 5/8″ drywall. It’s a scissor truss system on 30″ centers, with about 8′ from ceiling to roof peak. There are currently no ridge vents, gable-end vents, and I don’t *believe* any soffit venting. I live in an area that will require heating and a/c in the living space often during the year.
If you want to see the actual structure, here are a few recent photos:
http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/viewSection.asp?sectionID=100201
So here are my concerns, and I see there are a lot of opinions on this forum related to these issues:
– Is a vapor barrier a bad thing (or waste) given our heat/cool cycle inside the house?
– Do I need to vent the roof/attic space somehow? I don’t think the attic area has ever been intentionally vented or insulated, and there is no evidence of rot or mold after 110 years, but I’ll be insulating the ceiling.
– I’m currently not planning on having any lights poking through in the ceiling, but have been considering celing fans to keep things circulating. Will it be difficult to seal the ceiling due to the junction boxes?
– On a related note, what are the rules of thumb regarding ceiling fans for placement and usefulness? (can they move air effectively from 23′ up?)
Sorry so long, I’ve got lots of questions. Thanks for your thoughts.
banned from the nail gun
Replies
Try looking at http://www.buildingsciences.com They have lots of info on things like vapor barriers and so on.
Thanks Danno. I'm really tempted to make a bad pun between your name and Bookmarking the site you recommend (Book'em mark, Danno?), but I'll hold back. =)I guess my reason for asking on this board was this was the first place I had seen where people were moving away from vapor barriers, so it seemed like relatively *new* advice. Of course, homeownership is entirely new to me, so I'm pretty ignorant at this point...------------------------
banned from the nail gun
You're not the first to think of "Book 'em Danno." I even chose that handle because I remember the line from "Hawaii Five-O". Actually, my dad used to call me Danno once in a while, real name being just plain "Dan". Dad prob'ly got it from "Hawaii Five-O" too.
Anyway, it looks like you're getting good advice from here. The guy who mentioned blown foam didn't mean fiberglass, I'm pretty sure, but not sure which plastic type foam he did mean. Icy (forgot how to spell it) is probably what he meant, but I think there are others.
Eyepulp
I know absolutely squat about vapor barriers but I just wanted to comment on your venture.
I've converted a couple churches to residential living, kinda fun, kind-of-a-pain in the azz, but, also kinda fun!
One thing though, give us more pictures for Gods(pun intended)sake, we/I have to see the whole structure to determine its worthiness!
Doug
Edited 5/18/2006 2:37 pm ET by DougU
Doug, I'd love to hear more about the church conversions you've done. I've got a ways to go.Here are more of the work-in-progress photos:
http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/viewSection.asp?sectionID=100194And here are some of the more general photos:
http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/viewSection.asp?sectionID=100184http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/viewSection.asp?sectionID=100191------------------------
banned from the nail gun
Thanks for the pictures.
You've got some square footage there dont cha!
Have you guys did any planing yet? Like wheres the kithcen going to be, the bedrooms, bathrooms,........
I can see that the heating and air will be a big concern, shouldnt cost much to heat that place! :)
Keep posting and asking questions, this job will take a while.
Doug
Edited 5/18/2006 6:30 pm ET by DougU
Welcome to Breaktime.
What town is the church in? We have folks here from Sprinfgield, Petersburg, and Paxton. I live in Carlinville - About an hour south of Springfield.
Looking at his site, one of the old pictures of the church says Towanda, IL, wherever towanda is?
Yup, it's in Towanda. Also known as Little Chicago... no it isn't.It's just outside of Bloomington/Normal. Population 552 after my wife & I moved in.------------------------
banned from the nail gun
Looks like Towanda is just northeast of Bloominton/Normal. Which reminds me of a joke.There was a girl from the town of Normal, Illinois who got engaged to a guy from a little town called Oblong. When they got married, the headline in the paper read:"Oblong boy marries Normal girl."
You're right that a vapor barrier is harder to do right when the house requires a lot of heating and cooling. One of the best solutions is to insulate with blown in foam, especially for the roof. That way, the foam effectively is a vapor barrier (not 100% vapor impermeable, but close) and insulation, so the warmer moist air cant move through the insulation to a point where the temperature drops and the air condenses. The downside is that the upfront costs are high.
Another insulation method often talked about around here is the "mooney wall", a clever way of insulationg with cellulose to prevent thermal bridging. You can search for mooney wall, or pay attention to the thread called "adverse conditions" in the photo gallery. By the way, the advanced search on the upper left is a good (if slow) function.
Sealing up J-boxes shouldn't be too difficult, and if you go with foam, you'll actually have a gap between insulation and drywall that will be big enough for wiring and boxes.
zak
"so it goes"
No one seems overly concerned with the ventilation at this point - should I not lose much sleep over that specific issue?I've started scheduling with the guy hanging the rock, but don't want to firm that up until I'm clear on the insulation issues. I know the money spent doing this right will pay for itself if I make good choices.zak: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying - when you say "blown in foam" is that the icynene expaning foam or just the blown fiberglass (which is what I'm currently thinking of doing)? Up til now I've planned on putting up the sheetrock and then blowing in the pink stuff through a scuttle hole at the ceiling peak.Advice is very welcome. =)PS: I've been using the search - I'll look for the mooney wall.------------------------
banned from the nail gun
I meant icynene or urethane expanding foam. With that, you won't need a separate vapor barrier, and you'll have more room in the rafters to do electrical, because foam has a much higher r/inch than blown in fiberglass or cellulose.
With blown in cellulose or fiberglass (most here agree that cel is preferable to fiberglass both in insulating properties and ease of use), you'll want a vapor barrier and maybe venting. I'll defer to http://www.buildingscience.com for that, my climate is primarily a heating climate.zak
"so it goes"
I'll have to do more research on the icy style foam. I didn't know it had the higher R factor than fiberglass.One question would be what additional work would I have to do to make spraying the foam possible with the scissor trusses as open as they are? The foam needs something to stick to, but there's no sheathing at the ceiling height, and once I put up the sheetrock it's sealed off...Or would they be able to reach the far corners without having direct access? Would the sheetrock become the surface they'd spray on?Sorry for the likely very basic questions, but I appreciate everyone's time. I'll light a candle for you all in the sanctuary when it's finally done... =)------------------------
banned from the nail gun
The foam is usually applied directly to the underside of the roof deck. Foaming would need to be done before the sheetrock. See this page http://www.buildingscience.com/designsthatwork/cold/profiles/beaconhill.htm for details on an unvented cathedral ceiling in a climate similar to yours (I think, Chicago is in this climate anyway).
An alternative would be to use a combination of rigid foam and blown in or batt insulation, like this: http://www.buildingscience.com/designsthatwork/cold/profiles/minneapolis.htm
In that case the rigid insulation on the inside is the vapor barrier, and the roof needs to be vented so insulation can dry to the outside. To use blown in insulation you'd have to create a channel between roof deck and insulation.zak
"so it goes"
Zak - those a great links. Those profiles are certainly valid climate-wise. I see the Minneapolis profile uses ventilation along with insulation at both the roof and ceiling, whereas the Beacon Hill project just uses the expanding foam under the roof, with no venting, and no insulation noted in the ceiling itself.I like the simplicity of the Beacon Hill style, but it looks as if you would essentially be conditioning (heating) all of your attic space as well as your living space. With the balloon effect of forced air (I think that's the term?) you'd have to wait for the attic to fill with heat before it starts filling your interior with heat and it would stop rising, right? I hope that question makes sense.I'm wondering if I should focus on methods that stop the heat at the ceiling rather than the roof, just for the sake of heating costs.Thanks again for your links and advice zak - it's a lot easier to work this stuff out here than on scaffolding.------------------------
banned from the nail gun
You are fairly close to the mixed humid area, but not sure on which side.http://www.buildingscience.com/designsthatwork/hygro-thermal.htmAnd when vapor barrier is used without any qualifications that using means poly. And building science does not recommend poly except in the coldest climates. IIRC that is only places with more than 7000 HDD, but I might be wrong on that.
Hey Bill;
You're right about our location being closer to the humid than the extremely cold. From what I've been reading (and being told here), it seems like the poly-based vapor barrier wouldn't make sense for us, though we would get a vapor barrier effect from using the spray in insulation.Now I'm getting educated on the strategy for the spray on insulation.------------------------
banned from the nail gun
EP,
Not a builder but I wanted to throw in that it sounds like you are going to try and heat your house with forced air. You might want to reconsider and use radiant heat. I wouldn't think that forced air could ever be comfortable with ceilings that high.
Did I get the right spot? Looks like a fun project, keep us up to date on it.
View Image
jt8
"The difference between greatness and mediocrity is often how an individual views a mistake..."-- Nelson Boswell
Edited 5/19/2006 1:35 pm by JohnT8
You found us John - and for some reason I'm not even creeped out. =)That shot must have been taken before the roof was replaced. We're the structure near the center, just to the left of the white car. We have our own personal section of train tracks go right past the corner of our yard.------------------------
banned from the nail gun
You found us John - and for some reason I'm not even creeped out. =)
Google Earth is a pretty neat program, I just wish there were more high res areas.
The sad thing is, I read your initial post but didn't read the following replies. So my boss and I thought we were being clever by figuring it out just based on your pics and description. Your "3 hr from Chicago" threw us for a bit (because WE'RE 3-4hrs from Chicago). But my boss used to live in Bloomington and recognized some of the buildings in your pics. But the church looked to be in a small town. So probably a small town in the Bloomington area. Then we spotted Amtrak in a pic. Amtrak runs along 55, so that narrowed it down. Then you mentioned something about "e. washington street". Boss was already leaning towards Towanda, and when he found a Washington street... BINGO!
And about that time I went back and read the replies... Among the replies you mentioned where you were...doh! And then about that time my boss found on your website where you mentioned where you were. Sheeze, talk about taking all the fun out of it. ;)
jt8
"The difference between greatness and mediocrity is often how an individual views a mistake..."-- Nelson Boswell
Hey everyone, I've got an appointment with an icynene rep next Tuesday. It looks like I'd need to install some sort of basic sheathing on the attic-side of the ceiling trusses and then have the icy sprayed against that from the interior side. I may also get the attic totally sealed at the eaves, at that point, as we'll never use that space for storage.Any questions I should be asking this guy before tossing money at him?Also, he said the costs were about twice or more of fiberglass insulation, but that heating bills were significantly less for the same or less quantity of icy. Does that bear out with people's experiences here?Thanks again for the help.------------------------
banned from the nail gun
Icy has a fairly high R-per inch value. It serves as vapor barrier and if installed properly will eliminate air infiltration. I would love to have icynene installed in my current project house, but the last time I got a ballpark # (IIRC the installer was from Decatur), it was going to be 2-3 times more expensive than the non-foam alternatives. So as great as it is, I wasn't ready to shell out the $$.
On the flip side, I'm never real happy with run-of-the-mill fiberglass batts. So at the moment I'm seriously considering the Mooney Wall method. I created a thread on it so that its creators would clarify it. The thread is located:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65624.1
If you don't get a specific response on your icy question, you might re-posting the question in its own thread.
jt8
"The difference between greatness and mediocrity is often how an individual views a mistake..."-- Nelson Boswell
Edited 5/23/2006 10:37 am by JohnT8
Hey John,
Thanks for the numerous responses. Sorry that all your detective work lead you to... Towanda. =) Not the most glamorous place, but we do have some train tracks and I-55.
We finally got our Icynene quote, and as you said, it's not cheap. I really like the concept of it though. I was thinking of using it at the ceiling level, and was told (by someone other than the Icy salesman) that the Icynene wouldn't breathe enough, and thus you'd have vapor trapped right at drywall height, which means your drywall absorbs the vapor and pops its screws.
As if the cost isn't bad enough, the concern about rebuilding a vaulted ceiling really frustrates me.
Anyhow, I should probably start a new thread about how many sweaters it takes to keep hypothermia from setting in during the winter...
------------------------
banned from the nail gun
Edited 5/30/2006 10:54 am by EyePulp
tut tut tut, stand around taking pics while dw does all the work.
View Image
Shameful, just shameful.....hmm... then again, maybe you're on to something! ;)
Is this the area where you were thinking of having the Icy blown? Are you planning on replacing the plaster/drywall ceiling? Couldn't you just blow cellulose in once the ceiling (floor in this pic) is back in place? you couldn't pay me enough to stand on that lath and look down through that hole.
View Image
We finally got our Icynene quote, and as you said, it's not cheap. I really like the concept of it though. I was thinking of using it at the ceiling level, and was told (by someone other than the Icy salesman) that the Icynene wouldn't breathe enough, and thus you'd have vapor trapped right at drywall height, which means your drywall absorbs the vapor and pops its screws.
You really do have to pick your battles, especially when dealing with a limited budget. Personally, I have a bad habit of spending the $$ in places where no one will see it <sigh>
If you really have your heart set on the Icy, you could try starting a new thread asking about whether that person was correct or not about the screw pops. It is beyond my experience, but my gut reaction is that it isn't correct (but I don't know for sure). All I do know is that cellulose is cheaper than Icy, and that I can do cellulose myself.
Keep us updated on the project.
jt8
"A tree is known by its fruit; a man by his deeds. A good deed is never lost; he who sows courtesy reaps friendship, and he who plants kindness gathers love." -- Saint Basil
OK, you've had a year. All done yet? ;)
This is the last update I found:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=82777.1
In case you're looking for your next project, here's something in Winchester. gotta act fast though, the ebay auction ends MONDAY! And if it doesn't get bought they're gonna TEAR IT DOWN...
http://www.sj-r.com/Sections/News/Stories/113554.asp
http://cgi.ebay.com/Historic-Hotel-in-Winchester-IL_W0QQitemZ270114855052QQihZ017QQcategoryZ1607QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
View Imagejt8
"The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide."-- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Did you get any of the brick?
be :o)The owner of the axe, as he released his hold on it, said that it was the apple of his eye; but I returned it sharper than I received it. It was a pleasant hillside where I worked, covered with pine woods, through which I looked out on the pond, and a small open field in the woods where pines and hickories were springing up. -Thoreau's Walden
Haven't heard if they dozed the hotel or not. But there may be a real gem on the horizon. A local catholic high school, which was celebrating its 150 yr anniversary, just found out their parent company is closing them and giving the space over to a college.
So there might be some demo auctions in the near future. More stuff I can't afford, don't have space to store, nor have any time to remove.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
More stuff I can't afford, don't have space to store, nor have any time to remove.
That never slowed rez down. But I'll bet he'd make you a deal if you need a door or twenty.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Few years back I went to an auction of an old nunnery next to a catholic school that was being razed for a new parkinglot for the school.
The woodwork in the first floor lobby of that three floored building was to die for. No one bid on the cherry coffered ceiling in one of the rooms so I bid a ridiculous low starting bid and no one else bid.
Unfortunately they seem to always have those type auctions like a day or two before the demo so I ran out of time and it went the way of the dozer.
Must have had to keep the nuns warm and thus happy as they'd put new vinyl doublehungs in the entire west wall which I won and spent two days removing.
Guy bought the stairway and brought his whole clan in to manually lift it out in one piece onto a flatbed and varoommed away.
One guy started a bid at $20 for all three floors of later model radiators and no one else bid.
Sometimes those auctions can be a riot.
be a roomful of laughsThe owner of the axe, as he released his hold on it, said that it was the apple of his eye; but I returned it sharper than I received it. It was a pleasant hillside where I worked, covered with pine woods, through which I looked out on the pond, and a small open field in the woods where pines and hickories were springing up. -Thoreau's Walden
Sometimes those auctions can be a riot.
That's for sure. I especially like the ones where the auctioneer just stands there asking folks what they'd like to bid on. Point at it and give him a starting bid.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow