Well… I’m really disappointed. I was all excited to do a great photo-spread for you guys. On the morning I wanted to take all the pictures, my digital camera decided to not work. The best I could do was buy one of those disposable cameras on the way to work.
Unfortunately, many very cool pictures did not come out at all. But there were still a handful of decent ones so I figured I’d do a thread anyway.
The house I’m currently framing has 5 good size dormers. 6′ wide with hip roofs. Two of them are located over open space and therefore needed to be constructed so as to be supported entirely in the underlying roof framing. One of them over the stair set. The other over a cathedral ceiling great room with 18′ ceilings.
This would be a time consuming ordeal to frame them in place. Time would be lost to staging as well as getting the materials up there and properly fitted. I decided to frame all 5 dormers in the comfort and safety that ground level provides. Myself and my lead spent a full day cutting all the pieces and parts. When it came time to put them together, the first took about 2.5 hours to assemble. The next four took 1 hour each. Installing them took all of 10-15 minutes each and the tie-in framing took another 1/2 hour or so each.
In the end, we saved an unbelievable amount of time in doing it this way. And in the process had a total blast for a couple days working on ground level with all the tools and materials we needed an arm’s length away.
Setting them was the most fun I’ve had in a long, long time. They fit perfectly. In the end, I believe that the finished product was superior to stick framing them in place due to the comfort level of how and where we built them.
I’m going to buy a new digital camera tomorrow. I’ll take some pictures of the interior of the framing on Monday as none of them came out with the cheesey disposable camera. I lost a few really good exterior shots as well, but I think you all will get the idea.
Replies
Man that is really cool. Don't you love it when you can increase productivity, safety, and quality all at the same time? I haven't been able to make that happen very often but when I do I walk around having to suppress a giggle. Things like that can make your whole week.
Yeah, it was really pretty exciting. In the very last picture, that's me crouched up on the roof between dormers. I was measuring fascia to fascia in the bays between the three front dormers. They ranged from 33 3/16" to 33 1/4". Oh well.... so much for accuracy. ;)View Image
Great pics!
"Being a cowboy aint all ridin and shootin" - Tim Mooney
Thanks Cat.View Image
Much easier working them from little steppies on the ground, right? Nice work.
Guy down the road from me did the same on a house framed last year, but his was all in SIPs.
I've got one to do which'll go when skiing winds down next spring, with both a shed and gabled dormer. We'll be doing the same, but flying the components with a crane.
I knew you were a tool junkie Brian...but you have your own CAT? I'm impressed!
Also, great looking dormers my friend, really looks like you shaved some serious time off that install. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Nice work Brian. It's a good feeling when you have an idea, follow through with it, and end up being highly sucessful. You obviously believe in working smarter not working harder.Those CAT lulls are sweet. I operated one when I was working on a framing crew down in Falmouth, MA. They're indispensable. Do you have CAT come on site and do the maintenance for you? We'd have them show up when we weren't using it and they'd do a complete fluid and filter change out. We also had a bucket that attached to the boom. You could drop the forks, hook up the bucket and now you had a front end loader. very handy. We also had a gin pole that would attach to the end of the boom, with the forks off. It had a snap hook on the end. We,d hook up a sling to the pole and stand our walls. Much like you do with the sling over the fork. I can't remember if it was a stock attachment, or we had it fabbed. Did you make up that work platform, or is it something that you bought. We made one out of a pallet.I bet that 5 lb hoodie was a joy to have on this morning. That women does some nice designs.Thanks for your time, and have a good night
Brian,
That's great work!
If I get a big house to frame, I will definitely rent a lull. The closet I come to do what you do is bringing the material up to the deck where the dormers are just framing the walls and sheathing them and sticking them outside and nailing them on.Then I cut the rafters.
I would love to do what you just did and hopefully get a big enough addition or house and do so.
Did you use the CM for all the wall plates and sheathing angles?
Hey thanks Joe. Your compliments mean a lot to me. This whole thing has really got my wheels spinning about more and more stuff we can do. My imagination really does seem to be the only limit to framing with forklifts. I hired another really good framer about a month ago. We get along great and we speak the same language when it comes to framing. Having him around to double-check my math and let me know if my ideas are getting too far out there is awesome. It's given me the confidence to try some things I always wanted to do, but would have had to do alone because of the skill-sets of the rest of my crew.
But even he thought I was a little bit nuts for trying this. But as I talked him up, he got more and more fired up about the whole thing. We had such a blast doing this Joe..... framing is supposed to be fun. I'd forgotten that for awhile there.
Did you use the CM for all the wall plates and sheathing angles?
We did. But I have to confess. The math wasn't bad at all on any of this as the whole house is 12 pitch framing with the exception of the bastard Octagon segment on the front. That's also the first time I ever had do a partial octagon that layed onto another roof for two planes. That one was fun too. I took a picture standing between the two dormers and looking down at it because it looks great from that angle. But that's one of the pictures that didn't come out. I'll be sure and take that picture again when I get a new camera though.
I can't wait to trim this place out... I think it will look pretty nice. The back of the house has some cool detail too. It's got a 20' long by 16' wide room jutting out from the house and ending in an oct. bay on the back and a big shed dormer across the second floor too.View Image
>>>the only limit to framing with forklifts<<<
Sounds like there might be a good title for a FHB article in there.
"Being a cowboy aint all ridin and shootin" - Tim Mooney
this one... are you setting the roof of the bay ?View Image
No, we just have the machine set there as staging. That was framed up on the plates as it would have actually been more work to frame it on the ground.
For obvious reasons, it was crucial that the two valleys formed behind the bay roof (where it lays over onto the main house roof) cleared the corners of the dormers. That called for some 'tweaking' of the pitch of the two side hips. Framing it as a true octagon segment would have had two of the planes cutting through the corners of the dormers and creating pockets that would need big ugly crickets.View Image
i do a lot of tweaking on bays.. i'll show you the one we just did... hah. hah. hah.
one tweak after anotherMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
WOWWWW...Very,Very cool!! What more is there to say?
I have dreamt of an open world, borderless and wide... where the people move from place to place, and nobody's taking sides.. http://www.yusufislam.com
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
:) Thanks a lot Andy.View Image
Welcome...and how much did that lift cost you and how often do you use it?
And what other creative things have you done with it...you haveta have some pretty good stories behind that thing.
I have dreamt of an open world, borderless and wide... where the people move from place to place, and nobody's taking sides.. http://www.yusufislam.com
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I'm going to go downstairs and watch a movie with my wife now, but didn't want to ignore your last post. Hold that thought and I'll fill in some stories with my coffee in the AM. That's what Sunday mornings are for, right?
:)View Image
Andy,
I (over) paid $89,500 for the machine about two years ago. I think that if I had done more homework I could have got it for around $79-$80,000. But I bought right through Caterpillar as I didn't know very much about them and was too nervous to go private sale on it. Besides, I needed the financing and didn't yet have a history with my bank. All in all, I really don't have any regrets though.
In the two year's I've had it, it costs me about the same as a $12/hr employee. I don't have any $12/hr employees, but I can't imagine I'd get very much production from one if I did. And the nice thing about the machine is that it's a fixed cost for the most part. So the more we use it (on an hourly basis compared to a human) the less it costs me. And it's a very healthy write-off come April. I've been depreciating it and it's really helped out at tax time. And in another three years, I'll own it.
We use it a ton. Yes, there are day's towards the end of a frame where it doesn't really get used very much, if at all. But when you need it, it's invaluable. How long would it take a laborer to lump a bunk of 3/4" Advantech up to the attic floor? It takes the machine about as long as it took me to type this paragraph.
The day to day stuff is great.... lifting lumber. But it really shines when you can use it to precisely install something that would otherwise be not just a ton of work, but dangerous too. Large beams come to mind right off the bat. And it's not just actually setting them that's nice. It's the fact that you can do a bunch of work to something before it even leaves the ground. Like knocking together triple and quad LVL's on a set of horses. You can string them and shim the horses to get your beams dead straight before they ever go into the house. I don't know if you've ever tried to get the "curse" out of triple 16" LVL after it is installed, but it's a really time-consuming PIA.
I'll try to find and attach a picture of a 55' long triple 2x12 built up beam that held up the roof and ceiling of a farmer's porch we did. There's nothing fun about trying to knock together a built up beam up on porch posts. It's tedious to say the least. We built the beam and layed it out, then just put a couple slings around it and set it on top of the posts. Done. Easy as pie. Or how about installing 32'+ I-joists. Now those are fun to handle, aren't they? The machine makes it a breeze. I can put up the whole stack, gang cut them, and boom them right out to their final locations.
Another great thing about the forklift is having the work platform that you can see in the picture of the octagon bay I posted earlier. That thing is wonderful. Occasionally we need to do work on a part of the house that is in just an awful place. Many times properly staging those places can take more time than the task you need to complete out there. With the work platform, I can pick a guy up with the appropriate materials and tools and park him right where he needs to be and tell him to give me a whistle when he's done. No set up time, no break down time. And because the worker has a large comfortable place to work, he often doesn't even need a cut-man to help him out and pass him things.
Job-site organization is another nice thing. The lots seems to be getting smaller and smaller here in MA. I often show up to a site and the first lumber drop pretty much fills up a good deal of the useable space of the lot. I can hop in the forklift and stack and organize all the lumber in the proper sequence that we'll be using it. This may sound minor, but it's really a huge deal on a site. It's nice to be able to take those huge stacks of roof framing lumber and just tuck them around behind the house until we're ready for them.
We'll also use the workplatform for cleaning out the site. I'll park it up in a window and we'll swamp out the whole house and then I'll just drive to the dumpster and dump it. Less handling means less labor. We'll often do the same thing with all the tools at the end of the day. Park it in a window and throw all the tools out on the platform and then drive around to the back of the trailer.
And setting windows. Lord, have mercy is it nice to set windows off a forklift. Even the big triple and quadruple mullions or huge arch tops are a breeze. You set it on the platform, drive to the opening, plop it in and nail it off. No leaning off extension ladders to nail off the other side or apply the Vycor. Window days used to suck. Now everyone looks forward to it. It's like a day off.
But of course, there are times where it sits idle. Some jobs just can't accomodate a forklift. Additions come to mind. But I think that's true of any piece of heavy equipment. I drive down any given road and I see more pieces of equipment sitting idle than I see working. But if you know you can keep it busy enough.... it's really a no brainer. It improves efficiency and safety first and foremost. And anytime you can do that, you will have a happier and healthier crew. Happy crews make money. Happy crews make nice guys out of framers. :)View Image
Totally awesome Brian. I can see how it'd actually pay for itself the very first year. Its more than what you'd pay an extra guy.
It shows how serious you are to the customers.
It shows how much you care anout doing the job right.
It shows how into the work you are.
Its a great place for your advertising...lol.
Honestly, just those few things above have to add a lot to your business.
When I had excavation companies come here to give me prices...the amt of heavy equipt they had said something to me about their pricing especially when a lot of it was t&m.
The fact that it makes your life so much easier and lets you sleep better at night knowing all that you've just said.......Seems to me its an invaluable tool for the work that you do.
If I were you I'd take a group shot around that thing in front of a job with you name and logo on the neck of it for the home page of your website.
Very proffessional to say the least. Nice move bro!! Enjoy.
Be well
andy...
I have dreamt of an open world, borderless and wide... where the people move from place to place, and nobody's taking sides.. http://www.yusufislam.com
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Before we came to NY, we lived in NE IN, and in that part of the country, the house framing business is almost 100 percent Amish, from minimal ranchers all the way up to the palace for the Pizza Hut king.
Every single Amish-built houseframe job I ever saw had a big Lull or some other brand of telescopic forklift sitting on site from day one. When I built a house there and hired the guys with the straw hats and beards to frame it, I got to see things in action. And I mean action.
Load of lumber from the yard? Forget the boom, son. It'll come off much quicker with the Lull, and we can put it in places you can't get to. Placing floor joists? Load 'em in sequence needed right on the forks, and stick the load right out there where it is convenient to the guys doing the rolling. Truss erection? Forget the crane, unless we need to go waaaay up there. Window installation or siding work way up high? Clip on the big man-platform and do it all from that. Bolt the saw right to the platform and use it right up there with you.
My guys said that they could not compete without the fork unit. I am surprised framers don't use them everywhere.
cool.. btw... on this porch.. the lower roof interrupts the gable
View Image
i wonder if the gable had gone thru and sat on the columns, interrupting the shed roof, if it would have improved the visual effect about 200%Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I believe you're right about that little front gable Mike. Having the fascia transition to rake and then back down again would have made it look more substantial and given the gable greater depth. Maybe next time. :) That 5" crown on all that fascia woulda been a bear though. View Image
Very cool.
I'm continually impressed with the flexibility and ability to innovate, that really good framers have when the structure is built level, straight, plumb and square.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
That's quite a compliment Don.... I appreciate it. And to think.... math used to be my least favorite subject in school. Man, do I wish I paid more attention now!View Image
Forget about that. I took a buttload of math through college and I still think that's craftsmanship and ingenuity. I'd like to read about this in FHB. How about it?
I'd like to do a piece on these for FHB. I've talked to Justin some over the past few months...just kicking article ideas back and forth. By the time I knew I was going to do these dormers this way, it was too late. I probably would have been too nervous that something would go wrong on the first try anyway if there had been a camera man around.
I'm going to look through the plans for upcoming jobs that I have and see if any of them are a good fit for this technique. If they are, I'll see if Justin is interested.View Image
Just flash the name on the Cat tele-lift and the hoodies. Get some advertising out of it.
You're right though, you don't want to blow this. I don't want to open my rather expensive FHB issue and see you guys dropping the dormer on the ground or knockin' over the porta-john. Get this right and you'll have your own Saturday morning PBS television show.
Justin: Get hot on this! This is a good piece.
I don't want to open my rather expensive FHB issue and see you guys dropping the dormer on the ground or knockin' over the porta-john.
LOL.... yeah, but that would make for some pretty good TV, wouldn't it?View Image
Cool pictures, I was trying to get caught up with what I had missed in the past week and you started a photo thread, I almost missed it.
I started building things on the ground this summer and I won't go back, I love it. Makes the hard part of the job easy.
I am glad that your new lead guy is working out for you, and that your crew has taken a liking to him.
Great looking work, and have a good holiday Dieselpig.
Cool work Brian. I was considering joining a framing crew for a couple of weeks before I took my new job. Would be a good learning experience to hang out with yours that's for sure.
Brian,
It's about freakin' time you posted some pics!!! And really really cool ones at that!
Those dormers look really good. What kind of fascia is that? We've been using 5/4x 10 for about 3 years, but recently switched to 5/4x10 KD cedar that is just dead straight. It looks really good up on the rafter tails. Your's looks killer. I bet the GC is happy about that.
On a side note, don't underestimate what doing things like that with the forklift tells the neighbors, subs, builders, inspectors etc. We've gotten more good comments from lifting things with the forklift and using the platform than I can keep track of. We've developed a good reputation where we frame because of this and stickframing, dressing decently, not swearing and dancing to music :-) And on my crew I'm the oldes at 28 and the youngest is 22, avg age is about 24ish. People love to watch us lift, which stresses me out to be honest :-)
The house we just finished framing for my brother, the neighbor thought it was great that we use a forklift, then when we sheathed the roof in the rain (not cool), but the platform up there and did it in sections, you can see the neighbors watching. It makes us look smarter, which people don't usually necessarily think when they see framers. . . .at least in our area :-).
We start siding this week, so I'll post pics using the forklifts when I get a chance. You should think about siding your frames. It's easy on the body and a nice change of pace, especially when you have a forklift.
Your frames inspire me man, they really do. That is some high quality and clean work.
Coming from you, those are high compliments Tim. I'd hoped you'd be proud of me. :)
The fascia on those dormers (and the rest of the house eventually) is just garbage pre-primed 1x8. I guess not having the digital camera may have actually done me a few favors!
You're right about the neighbors Tim. Those dormers sure attracted a bunch of attention before we got them up. I answered an awful lot of questions that week.View Image
Hi Tim,
Quick question. I've read your latest article in JLC twice now on floor framing. Nice job with that. We've got a PLS2e and really like it for most stuff. I've been eyeballing the PLS5x that you're using in that article for awhile now though. Explain to me why it's the better laser for framing and layout if you would. Other than the fact that it shoots 'square' as well as plumb and level, I can't see the big benefit. For me, pulling a hypotenuese with a long tape to sq. up a foundation has never seemed like a big deal.
The big thing I'd like to get better at, is keeping kneewalls and plate lines more accurate in dropped foundation issues. Is this where the PLS5x is the better laser for framing compared to the 2e? Do you find the dot easy enough to find outdoors, including direct sunlight? Also, do you own the detector and is it necessary? I've got a detector for my 2e, but I'm fairly certain it won't work with the 5x.... would have to buy another detector if it's a must-have to use it outdoors. So the a 5x with detector and I'm talking about another 600 bones.....I'm wondering if the 5x is $600 better than the 2e I currently have?
I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts on this stuff.View Image
Dies, I'd have to work on a jobsite with someone that is using one of this gizmos. I just can't imagine where I'd use one.
ON the last job that we did, we had to build some walls on concrete slab. The slab was out of level. I could see where a rotating level would have helped us. Instead we used a four foot level and I discovered that I needed to add 3/4" to the studs from one end to the other. I cut each stud 1/8" because the wall was about 6' long.
That's about the only time I would have pulled a laser out on a rough in the last ten years that I can think of. I can't even think past ten years or maybe I'd figure out a need for one.
Give me an idea where I'd need one, will ya'll?
blue
Blue,
The concrete finishers need the laser.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I can't say you ever actually need one Blue... just that they can make things simpler and quicker at times.
Here's a place where I love my PLS2e... it's a line laser. It shoots a solid plumb line and a solid level line... both at the same time if you like. Anyway, when building walls in a finished attic area where the top plates may go from flat ceiling to sloped ceiling... or even worse, when they run at an angle to the roof lines. I just line up the laser line with the lines snapped on the floor and it instantly projects the line up into the cieling framing right where it needs to be.... sloped, otherwise, or both.
Don't know if you ever do your own deck footing, but sometimes I do. The laser is nice because it makes it very simple to get your sonotubes at the same depth... or at least the tops of your pours the same. So all your deck posts get cut the same. Especially nice if you have to run lattice afterwards.
We also use it when we have to set a large bank of windows. One particular job this summer, we had a bank of six lowers with six transoms above with stud pockets in the middle. A laser makes it easy to find the high sill (if you've got one) and then set all the windows to that one. I'll set the high one, then set the laser on the top of that window. Now I've got a line to set all the other windows to and don't need to pull out a level anymore. Keeps the finish guy happy, the sider happy, and me happy.
You already mentioned cutting graduated studs for a slab, that's another place where a laser can make short work out of a potentially tedious task.
So no, lasers aren't a necessity by any means. But I find them to be quite useful and often helps speed things up. An awful lot of homes were built long before the advent of lasers so there's always another way to get it done. It's just not always as easy as having a laser around.View Image
Brian, I could see how they would be extremely helpful with sonotubes and deck foundations. I can think of one job a couple years ago that we struggled (minor struggles) and they would have been quite handy.
And yes, projecting a line onto the sloped ceilings would be great. My question is: how hard is it to line up the laser? That seems to be the thing that would take time, especially for small sections. It would be worth it if the run was 20 feet or so.
I think some instructional threads on lasers are in order.
blue
The nice thing about most of the new lasers Blue is that they're so small that you can just throw them in your belt. I obviously don't carry one with me all the time, but if I think we're gonna use it, I'll grab it and throw it in the corner.
As far as setting them up goes, I'll occasionally set up a tripod or a floor to ceiling pole, but that's very rare. Most of the time I just set it on the deck or on a couple blocks of wood depending on what I'm doing. Fast and dirty. As you well know... if something is a PIA to set up or is just too time consuming, once the novelty is worn off it'll never get used again. I haven't found that to be true in the case of lasers.
In the few times I've used one on a tripod, it's been because I was using it in place of a builder's level. A builder's level would require the setting up of a tripod anyway. But unlike a builder's level... if you have a detector you can use the laser all by yourself.
Would I use it for a 20' wall? Sure would. Especially if it meant I wouldn't have to fiddle with a plumb bob or a string or something. 9 out of 10 times, the laser is going to be faster and more accurate. I had to frame a bearing wall in a garage a few months ago. The slab was sloped and quite uneven. My laser came with an "L" shaped bracket. I screwed the laser on it and then screwed the bracket to one of the walls that was already up that sat on the level foundation. I just set the bracket at the same height as the top of our studs. I shot down my bottom plate and I could then just hold my tape up and the line was shining right on the cut number for each stud or cripple. View Image
I just set the bracket at the same height as the top of our studs.
At the same height. At the same height? What does that entail? How close is "at the same height".
How involved is this process? I like the idea that it fits in your pouch, but I had a small laser level that does that and I rarely found anything useful to do with that. Hence my suspicions. I'm not the kinda guy that would want to be rummaging around for a special bracket...because I'm real apt to have never looked at it before I tossed it LOL!
blue
Oh yeah..the bank of windows trick. I like that concept. I have seen situations where lining up the windows turns into an ordeal. Where/how do you set up the laser?
blue
The gang of windows was easy. I just turned the laser on and it gave me a random reference line around the room. I just measure from each of the sills in the bank to the line to find the high sill.
We installed this one first. Then I set the laser on top of a step ladder with a few scraps under it until the beam was in line with the top of the window we had just set. Takes all of 15 seconds. We then just set each of the other windows to that one. I turned on the plumb line as well and would then just twist the laser from window to window and we never had to pull out a level.
The nice thing is that the lines on my PLS2e are crisp enough that you really don't need to have the laser line dead on what you're aiming at. You can have it close enough and then just eyeball stuff in... using the laser simply as a convenient reference line. Like those windows... I wouldn't bother fiddling with getting the laser so it was dead split on the sharp corner of a window. I'd get it close and let my eyes keep a consistent 'reveal' if you will.View Image
Then I set the laser on top of a step ladder with a few scraps under it until the beam was in line with the top of the window we had just set. Takes all of 15 seconds.
I don't have a step ladder that tall, unless the tops of the windows are at about 4'! Few scraps of wood? Does that mean about 24" worth?
Okay, I get the idea. As long as I can see the beam, I can use the beam as a reference line to set the widow tops. I know this might sound rough, but I've been using the top plate as a reference line for several decades and it's normally pretty accurate, after all, if the top plates are truly out of level, I might not be so inclined to set the windows perfectly level, because the ceilings would make the windows look , well unlevel, if everything was not parallel. So...in most instances, I still woudn't pull the rotary level out of the truck, because I already believe in my top plate and feel very comfortable with that as a reference line.
Admittedly, if I worked a lot on slabs, I'd probably be a lot less inclined to trust the top plates. I'd probably see the rotary level as a great device to both check my stud lengths, as you indicated, but also to veryify my top plates as being level, after everything was framed, if something looked suspect.
I'm really trying to not be stubborn on this idea. I'm most likely going to invest in one for the school project.
blue
What can I say Blue?
Like anything else.... if you're looking for a negative... then you'll probably see a negative. All I can tell you is that if using a laser was slower or more painful then I wouldn't be doing it. The rest is up to you.
You've got by without one for this long so it's obvious that anything a laser can do can be accomplished by other means. My experience says that often times using a laser proves to be quicker and more accurate in many cases. Your mileage may vary.
Old dogs.....new tricks... yada, yada, yada.View Image
hey, young pup.. who you callin an olde dog ?
ain't jim fun ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hey, young pup.. who you callin an olde dog ?
ain't jim fun ?
He's right Mike. I'm hopeless!
I'm probably going to invest in another one on the school project, only because it'll be inside work and I'll look cool even if I never use the thingy. I used to always carry in my 8' level for wall plumbing day, but never really used anything other than my torpedo to do a cursory check..lol.
blue
Hi All
I use a Hilti PM10. there a great laser. I use it for nearly everything. I primerily bought it for levelling wall plates, since most houses here are block built, I think blocklayers here only have levels for show, because I've yet to see the top course of blockwork level. Usually have to spend half a day shimming the plates.
I use it everyday for either wall plates, datum lines, studwork, doorframes. even on sunny days it has a good beam. I have it nearly 6 yrs now and never had to callibrate it, not that its hard to do. It comes with a case that I have clipped onto my tool belt so its with me all the time.
Blue, here's the bottom line on lasers:
1. There's not much that they can do that can't be accomplished by other means.
2. As a framer, it's highly unlikely that you'll use it everyday. Or even every week.
3. But when you 'need' it... or come across a situation that calls for it..... you'll realize how flippin' happy you are that you have it rolling around in the truck somewhere. It's like the "Easy Button" in the Staples commercials.View Image
crust and all?!!!
Seriously, thanks for tolerating me.
I know you're right about the tools. I can't possibly know becuase I've never had one. I want one that straps on my wrist for my retirement. I want it in gold.
blue
Seriously, thanks for tolerating me.
C'mon Blue.... you giveth some.... you taketh some. All in good fun my man.
When you retire... ship me your boom truck would ya? :)View Image
Yeah he's a regular barrel of monkeys. Blue knows I love him.... crust and all.View Image
Laser works excellent on a walk-out basement frame. Shoot all the corners, cut corner studs and string between to get stud lengths on basement wall steps. I've chased after too many guys trying to level across great distances with a 4' level. I checked a mason once that lost 3/4" in 28' (and his level was accurate). I use a site laser for this.
I bought a PLS-2 based on recommendations from this site and it's used by my trim carp. Excellent for leveling cabinets, chair rail, etc. There again, I watched him "try" to level chair rail and long runs of cabinets with a 4' level. Laser is much faster and alot for accurate.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
John, I see the lasers as being more usable for interior finish projects.
I've had a few walkout situations that could have benifitted from a laser, but normally the masons are setting their block with them and the poured wall guys are setting the main walls with them and the difference in height of the stud legths at each end of the walkout is equal.
We just aren't running into any need to do anything but simply measure the length at each end and see if they are equal.
Yes, it would be a nice tool to pull out of the truck if a problem arose, but it wouldn't come out as a matter of normal operating procedure. Our basic taping has been more than adequate so far.
blue
Brian,
For some reason I have cable back but not power. I don't know if you saw the news, but we got hammered here by high winds early Friday morning. Over a million meters without power, but we got generators :-)
I started using the PLS5 when it first came out. Someone bought it and recommended it. So I think that came out before the PLS2. I got the PLS5x to replace the 5 when it was treated like a football one too many times. We used it for shooting layout vertically and then tried it for squaring up the foundation. It was great because of the ability to shoot a perfectly straight line when the foundation is really stepped instead of running a string and measuring parallel walls. It was just natural to use it to square. On a lot of our foundations, the back walls are jogged pretty good and we end up with a lot of stepped foundations.
It took longer to read that section in the article than it takes to square. It literally takes a minute. We use it to square the foundation, then each wall layout from the same corner all the way up. It is more accurate than 3-4-5 and saves the step of actually measuring the concrete or the floor framing. In other words, we would calculate the diagonal to square up the deck or the sill layout. So we'd have to measure.
Now we just snap the longest wall, then measure in 5 5/8" and tap the laser straight on the snapped line and mark the wall perpendicular and snap that line. We don't measure to do layout.. THEN we pull out the tape (100' open reel nylon clad steel tape like surveyors use) and measure all the parallels to those two lines. As we do that we can get an idea for how close the foundation is.
I talked (emailed)to Gary Katz about lasers after his article and in reference to a good laser for our trim guy. He said a lot of guys have more than one PLS tool.
We have the PLS5x (rarely use the detector because we have a DeWalt rotary laser for shooting level outside) and I've thought about getting the PLS2 to shoot a nice line for hanging windows so all of them are exactly the same level. Our trim guy wants us to do that. I wouldn't use it to square though.
Since we stick frame and include bonus rooms quite a bit. The PLS5 is great for shooting wall layout up to the roof. It is much better than a plumbbob. We also use it for plumbing rakewalls, and for plumbing long ridgeposts. Also, we've stopped using the Stabila PlateLevels for plumbing walls. Now we use the PLS5 because it takes the level holding guy out of the equation. I can brace walls by myself because I can see the dot http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/12448759/214000123.jpg It is one of the best purchases I've made. I used it to keep a 90' run of rafter tails straight also http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9645221/140920369.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9645221/140920375.jpg
How much time does it really save for squaring? Not that much, maybe not enough, but it is more accuart than 3-4-5 and when we used to calculate, someone always made a mistake and that is when the laser helps.
We had a homeowner tell us about a year ago that his son came in to put the harwood down and when he snapped control lines, we were within 1/8". He said he never puts wood down when the walls are that square. The homeowner then though we walked on water :-) even though the rakewall was a little bit higher and the there was a slight bump at the ridge :-)
That dot is easy to find in the sunlight, but not because it's bright. When I'm setting up the laser and the other guys is walking down to place the target at the far end of the wall, I have him stop about 20' out and its really easy to move the laser until it hits the target, takes 5 seconds, then he takes it to the end and its a few taps and we are good. We just shade the target with our hand to see it better.
The just came out with the PLS90 with target made for squaring and it shoots lines instead of dots. Stay tuned for a reveiw of that tool. We are siding right now and have two more ahead of us, but the next frame (6 weeks or so) we'll try that out. I'll let you know how that is and send you pics. In the meantime, the PLS5 is so good for so many things, that you would be stupid for buying that and getting creative using it.
Taunton needs to get a few of you laser using pros together with a couple photographers and either come out with a book on using lasers, or at the very least a lengthy article or two.
With nice explainations and step by step pics.
jt8
"When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us." -- Alexander Graham Bell
"Taunton needs to get a few of you laser using pros together with a couple photographers and either come out with a book on using lasers, or at the very least a lengthy article or two.
With nice explanations and step by step pics."
Amen to that jt8.
It's a lot of money to drop when for lack of experience (speaking of myself) I'm not entirely sure how many practical applications there are.
Single unit task flexibility is very important to me.
Using your work generator to power your computer to check BT...
Two words come to mind
Priceless... & Addiction ;)
Tim, I didn't see the written article, but your explanations here seems to make some sense of things.
I noticed that the level is placed on the floor for your wall straightening act. Where is the line? Is it offset? How do you guage it?
I understand how these might be useful inside a remodel like Diesel does but I'm still skeptical on new work. There have been occasions when we are trying to square up some ungodly foundations with multiple offsets and daylight windows, but we've developed systems for these too that make them quite easy to deal with. Table framing forced us to rethink our systems and they improved dramatically.
blue
Blue,
In the pic what I'm doing is splitting the dot on the edge of the plate. That way I don't have to do any marking. I just look when the dot is split on the topplate I naile the brace off. The wall is nailed to the line to begin with anyway. That dot isn't very large in 10', so this makes the walls very accurate.
Because the laser is self levelling, when we have steps in the foundation that are small, like 1' or 2', that laser is shooting through, so we can quickly check to see how level the concrete is.
I think that as creative as you are, and your crew, you guys could come up with some great uses for the laser. You could leave it on the deck 1" out from the inside of the wall and then plumb your gable end truss without bringing a level up. We've used it to carry layout off the second floor deck out to the end of a longglulam to make sure that we have a perfectly straight line and don't have to mess with a string.
I gotta try one of the better laser systems. I suppose I might find a use for it. In my earlier years I'd have tried all of them but for some reason, I just haven't gotten on board.
What type should I buy for the indoor school project?
blue
Blue,
That is a really tough question. What would you need it for primarily? I've thought about getting a laser that generates a line, a crisp line, with a vertical beam as well. Gary Katz recommended looking at this one http://www.johnsonlevel.com/laser_line_406660.html
We've been very happy with the PLS5. For shooting level, we have a DeWalt rotary laser, but that was intended for mostly outdoors stuff like foundations or shooting control points for pony walls. We have to use the detector for that.
blue... we are on our 4th laser... the 1st one was simply a level with a laser built in
the 2d was a LevelLite TriLite... about $600 well worth the money, shot 3 beams : plumb , straight & right angle....self leveling.... lasted about 5 years
3d one was a rotary laser , good but not quite handy enough
our current one is a simple Stanley Fat Max.. cost about $100
has 5 lines: one plumb up , one plumb down
one left, one right & one straight ahead.... self leveling... we will typically use it to about 60 feet
it is so handy , most of the guys grab it instead of a level ...
if i needed longer distances, i might look at the PLS.. but i was really surprised at how accurate & easy this cheap Fat Max is
we use it for excavation, formwork, foundations, slabs, sills, decks, ridge, layout, gable end walls..
projecting imaginary points.. since you think in 3d anyways, the laser becomes just a projection of whatever you can imagine
it can and does , replace plumb bobs, levels & string lines
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
For interior work, I have used the PLS 2, which I like because it has straight lines (vertical and horizontal, separately or together).You can use it on a tripod (including an old camera tripod), and it comes with a magnetic bracket -- which I use in tight spaces with a steel bookshelf standard that I can clamp to a door or screw up on a stud. The newer model (PLS 2e) has the same features, plus you can use it for some exterior applications; Amazon is selling it for $230:http://tinyurl.com/yda67v********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Very cool Brian...almost makes me wish I was still a framer...
and you are right about the benefits of a lift. I bought a IR when I was framing and was constantly looking to use it. It was by far the best "employee" I ever had...always on time, never complained about the work i asked it to do, and was always eager to do more...
and you nailed it when you say that framing should be fun...Some of the best times I've ever had in the trade were my 4+ years framing, and the lift was a large part of that.
a question...how close have you come to rolling/tipping the lift? We did a big walkout once and while creeping up with a load of second floor trusses my driver (my brother) hit a soft spot in the backfill that sunk the front right tire to its axle...only his quick and calm thinking and the front stabilizers prevented a complete tip over...wow was he white when he got out of the cab! except for the large brown spot in his shorts.
Nice work. Always admired a good framer that took pride in their work, and you definitely fit into that category. btw..is that new guy the lead you were thinking about hiring a few months ago? seems to have worked out...knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed often...and for the same reason. (the rear chrome part of some old guy's car)
http://www.cobrajem.com
Yes Charlie, one of my 'new guys' is the lead that I was talking about in that earlier thread. So far, it's been a really good match. He's very laid back yet still knows how to work hard. That's a delicate balance to achieve and it really makes for a good framer because you really need both. My other guys have really responded to him well, and he and I get along great. We're really having a blast. I'm laughing a lot at work again.... and that's a good thing. My stress level has been about cut in half. And he's as happy with the arrangement as I am. View Image
Brian,
The pics are sweet, the grainy looks of them make me think back to some older TOH episodes.
Do you have a trailer yet or still having someone else move it?
Thanks a lot Neil. What a bummer it was to find out that the digital picked that particular morning to crap out.
I can't see myself ever moving that forklift around with my own equipment. The trailer would be the cheap part Neil. That machine weighs right around 22,000 lbs. I'd need way more truck to haul it than I ever plan on owning. A full size dump truck like a 10 wheeler isn't a very good match for a framing crew.
I let the excavators move it. They're already set up for it, and they don't mind doing it because as long as I'm flexible it keeps their trucks moving and making money during what would otherwise be down time. And it's one less thing for me to do when we're moving from one job to the next. Those machine move bills actually make for some pretty easy check writing.View Image
I can't see myself ever moving that forklift around with my own equipment. The trailer would be the cheap part Neil.
Hereabouts there are a fair number of construction companies that use old grain trucks instead of dumpsters. Something along the lines of a F800 or C60/65 or so. First time I noticed it, I thought, "man, that's a lot more work to load than a dumpster with a gate." I kept thinking that right up to the time that my dumpster bills started to arrive.
But anyway, wonder if a C60/F800/etc would pull your Cat-Lull on a trailer?
As to the camera... glad to hear you're buying a new one! You need a good camera to document your work. Good pics of good work. The November Consumer Reports had a review on digital cameras. Fire an email at me: [email protected] and I'll send you a scan of their article. CR isn't the Bible, but it makes a nice starting point.
For regular cameras, the top couple were: Canon PowerShot A620, HP Photosmart R817, Olympus Stylus 800. For cameras with good zoom: Canon Powershot S2 IS, Panasonic Lumix DMC-Fz20s, Sony cyber-shot dsc-h2, Fujifilm FinePix s5200.
In a couple months, they'll probably do another article and it will have a whole group of different models. I've got a zoom camera, but it is several years old. An olympus c-720. I don't know what the current model of it is. But keep in mind that only "optical" zoom is real zoom.
jt8
"Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Edited 12/4/2006 11:50 am by JohnT8
Diesel, I just went thru a long research in choosing my new digital camera, and I went with the new (just out) Canon SD800 IS
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_sd800-review/I choose it mainly for the 28mm wide angle zoom and and big high def LCD, and the 7.1 megapixels.very sweet camera, nice and compact too!
joe.. that is a GREAT camera review site... thanks for the linkMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No problem Mike!here's another one with a 28mm I was taking a hard look at
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06021404panasonicfx01.aspreally, there are only a few out there with that wide of a lens, unless you include digital SLRs.
Wide angle was one of the key requirements when I got mine a year and a half ago. What a difference with the interior shots! I ended up with a Fujifilm E550 and have been very pleased. Oh yea, pop-up flash = less red-eye.
John,
We have two of those old grain trucks, our's are a little more "seasoned" so I don't know if they would be able to pull 22k, but a newer one certainly would be able to.
They're great for us because we don't need the space to park the dumpster and can take it between jobs.
I'm not sure if the payoff is any better though. Our roll service charge about $70 a pick up plus the montly rental, usually around 250 or so. The truck on the other hand requires up keep, fuel, and a driver, plus time spent taking it to the dump and job to job. Overall I think it's a huge benefit, just not sure if it's any cheaper
I'm not sure if the payoff is any better though. Our roll service charge about $70 a pick up plus the montly rental, usually around 250 or so. The truck on the other hand requires up keep, fuel, and a driver, plus time spent taking it to the dump and job to job. Overall I think it's a huge benefit, just not sure if it's any cheaper
Our dumpster fees were the lump sum to drop it off ($230-450 10-40yrd), a 'fuel recovery fee' (percentage), and then first week to 10 days was included in the drop off, but after that, $5/day. Each pick-up was another 'drop off' charge ($250-400). So it was adding up in a hurry. My only strategy was to get larger than I needed because it was better to pay the difference in size and daily charge rather than paying the lump to empty it.
jt8
"Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
thats about the exact truck i have except in a GMC... detroit diesel, twin tele cyl 16ft dump... I got it from the local university... had never left the grounds.... 43k miles... the dump, sand pit, gravel yard... all less than 10 min away... black beauty blast media 25min... costs $66 each time i dump it... at the $1875.00 i paid for it plus $40 in industrial enamel to paint it with my titan airless.... it's been a god send...
p
Had a guy do some bobcat work and hauling for me this summer. He showed up with an old dumpster hauler, bobcat sittin in the back. Drops the dumpster, drives out the bobcat, loads the dumpster & off to the dump. Slick! And, yea I don't think it'd have any problem pulling 22K#.
this one is my favorite pic in that series..
View Image
great series.... what are you going to get for a new camera ?
did you have a table to build on ? how did you keep alignment ?
Thanks Mike. I really wish some of the other pictures came out. I really had some great shots in there. I have no idea what to get for a new camera. It's all really sudden, so I haven't really thought about it yet. I'm open to suggestions though as I know nothing about the current crop of available cameras.
The side or "return" walls were framed up in a jig that simply consisted of a sheet of plywood. We layed out the shape and framing pieces of the wall right on the plywood with chalk lines. We then screwed strapping along the top plate line, the outboard corner line, and the sloped bottom plate line. This ensures a good tight fit for everything. They were then sheathed right in the jig with the plywood simply being zipped off with big router and a flush trimmer bit.
The front walls were framed on table of sorts that was built on horses. It was simply an "L" shaped jig that kept the framing square. On the first day where we did all the cutting, we also assembled the walls and sheathed them. Individually. The three walls were then put together in the first step of the sequence where we actually built the dormers.
Putting them together was cake and pie. Especially after the first one. We'd take the front wall and lay it face down in the drive way. We'd then butt the return walls to it and nail them off. We'd then flip the wall up and while one guy held it, the other guy would nail a single 2x4 brace to each return wall while we had a level on the top plates. We then pulled a 3-4-5 to get one return wall square to the front and nailed the 1x4 "X" bracing on the inside. The 2x4 CJ'S kept the other wall parallel with the squared up wall.
From there we just put sawhorses around it and threw some 2x10 on them to walk around. They are amazingly stable with just those two 2x4 braces... we were comfortably walking the top plates as we assembled the roof frame.
I can't stress enough how simple this was or how clean they came out. They literally fit perfectly and were a breeze to build. The hardest part just was making the decision to 'go for it'. At the end of the day, it was far easier, safer, and faster than building them in place as I have always done. And like I said, I think that in the end it was a higher quality result.View Image
My fav too: I like seeing the main roof pitch line carried all the way through to the dormer ridge cut. Razor sharp.
Very nice. You'd make Blue very proud.
Pardon my fat fingers.
http://www.hay98.com/
Looks good. I've never seen someone actually build dormers on the ground and lift the completed piece to the roof on a residential job. Takes someone who knows what they're doing and isn't afraid to think outside the box to do it right and make it look easy. Your crew was probably pretty happy they didn't have to spend a couple of days on the roof too.
I've admired you're framing, attention to detail, and treatment of your crew for a while. If all bosses saw things your way, their'd be a lot less pi$$ed off employees in the world. Keep up the good work.
The next step is to have a shop where this kind of thing can built indoors and trucked to the site for setting. Add that to your ongoing list of tools you want but don't have.
Man, that's just super!
I learn so much from a series of pictures. As I've I'm sure I've said before, this kind of thing is my favorite part of BT - keep 'em coming!
Forrest - studyin' yer pitchers
Thanks Forrest. You photo threads ain't too shabby either. :)View Image
Congrats Diesel! I see you've come over to the other side. I doubt you'll ever be the same!
Seriously, you now understand how easy it is to fabricate things on the ground. You've also found out that it's just as accurate, or perhaps more accurate. Everything gets framed to a theoretically correct dimension, so, what could go wrong LOL?
At some point, you'll fabricate something wrong, seriously wrong and it will be a total wipeout. You'll have to toss the entire thing out, but you'll still be way ahead of the equation. Even if you had to rebuild all five of your dormers to get them right, you'd still only lose about 6 hours.
You'll never be the same again. I'm sure you'll be prebuilding a lot more in the near future.
blue
Cool dude. Your cheesy camera gets the idea across.
Your situation and innovative approach reminds me of an apartment project on which I was a speciality items frame sub in 1982. They pieced out everything (walls / floor trusses / decking / walls / roof trusses / decking) to different subs and there were many money making items which did not fall to any of the bulk work subs.
The buildings were two story, and there was a 2'4" x 6'0" closet that was attached to the first floor, but did not go to the second floor. It required its own shed roof. The super told me he would give me $20.00 a piece to frame and deck the small roofs. There were 38 buildings and 2 roofs on each building. Rather than set up at each building, we measured all of the roofs and found them to be equal. We (3) set up in the parking lot with materials, jig and tools, framed and set all of the roofs in 12 hours. After paying my help I made great money for a frame carpenter in Texas in 1982.
The super later offered a similar deal on some midroof chimneys, but jokingly added that I had done the others so fast he felt like he was ripped off. I told him it was all in the knowing how, and to check our finished results.
Tx, do they still piece out the stuff in Texas?
blue
Tx, do they still piece out the stuff in Texas?
Not often on homes. Piecing out is more common on commercial projects such as the aforementiioned apartment complex. In Housotn on some of the larger tract home developments they will often give frame (sometimes called 2") to one sub, the cornice to another sub and deck to another, but I try to avoid this complication in our homes.
I have been told that piecing out is a common practise in Las Vegas, but as a builder it seems to me it would be a hassel....too many subs. I would much more rather have a framer for frame cornice and deck.
I have read about, but cannot confirm, piecing out packages to this degree. Location was California, type was large scale tracts.
Subfacia, including trimming of rafter tails.
Hanging all exterior sheathing, but just with enough nailing to get it on.
Final nailing of sheathing, per all seismic codes.
Install all door frames, interior and exterior.
Hang doors to frames, interior and exterior.
Weatherstrip exterior doors, including installation of threshold and threshold seal.
According to my super who framed in Vegas and my understanding, some residential projects subbed as follows:
Layout / Walls / Anchor Bolts and RamSet / Joist / Rafters and Bracing / Wall Sheating / Roof Sheathing / Cornice / Windows / Doors / Punch Out
Seemingly miserable, wierd and a real hassel with people / scheduling / quirks and problems / payday. 11 subs instead of the 1 we use for the same work. He said it was good and fast, but I do not see the advantages. Maybe it works...Vegas is / has been the fastest growing city in the US....maybe the World.
Nice work.... stuff like that makes my week... sometimes my month.... get a real sore arm from pat'n myself on the back...
you have to love when you think it out... draw it a few times to make sure your mind didn't leave out details... and then you build it... and it works... just like you knew in your minds eye it would... you prob spent as much time explaining it to others than you spent think'n it out...
really cool to have someone to work with that "gets it" and has the skill set and experience to have an opinion based on facts and that experience.... I know you know how blessed you are...
thanks for share'n the pics...
p
Hi
This is my first time logging in to breaktime discussions. I must commend you on your roofing skills, its just like an article in a finehomebuilding book on roof framing.
I live in Ireland and have a crew of 7 guys. I do alot of roof framing and natural slating. I am always looking for quicker and more convenient ways of working. I always wanted to make a roof or even dormers on the ground and lift them into place but I've never had the nerve. I wouldn't mind but I have a CM and I'm good at awkard roofs and use the HAP alot so I should be ok at doing one. I would love if some of my crew were as entheuastic as me or you!!
In Ireland 95% of houses are block built or concrete built so we dont get to do alot of timber framing, which i love doing, anything to do with timber! except 2nd fixing, I'm sick of it, just finished a scheme of 30 houses so am ready to get outside again, although I timed it well because i was outside all spring & summer and have been inside for the past 8 weeks which is good because its rained everyday for the past 7 weeks!!
I have just ordered a Big Foot 10 1/4 saw on the internet and am awaiting its arrival, do you know if they are any good?
What kind of temperature swings do you have over there? How hot does it get in the summer, and how cold in the winter?
Is slate a local product?
jt8
"When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us." -- Alexander Graham Bell
Brian,I missed this thread the first time around, so let me say I think you are truly a master of your craft....... and I ain't kiddin!! : )Go ahead and do a few mag articles -- pay is lousy, but good for the ego.But mainly, I would recommend you start keeping notes, files, pics for a book. That could be a serious money maker, and good for your long term reputation.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
It never gets too hot or too cold, it just rains a lot, although this is the worst winter yet on record, not cold but lots of rain.
Summer temperatures range from 20 Celsius to 32 Celsius. Winter ranges from -4 Celsius to 16 Celsius.
Natural slate is getting common here again. Not much of it would be native, a lot comes from Spain, Japan or South America.
Most of the roofs here are done with manmade slates or tiles, but I love working with natural slate. I just finished a round roof last week, with some cool lead welding detail at the top.
Edited 12/16/2006 10:43 am ET by emmetnee
I just finished a round roof last week, with some cool lead welding detail at the top.
By all means, start a thread and give us some pics. jt8
"When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us." -- Alexander Graham Bell
Belive me if I knew about breaktime discussion before I started I would have taken step by step photos of it under construction & posted them up.
It was a good 2 hour drive from here so if I'm down that way again I'll bring my camera. I dont have any other round roofs to do in the near future, only did 2 last year, there not all that common.
I,m pricing a job ath the moment with 24,000 natural slates with lead domes and lead roof dormers . If I get that I will have some awesome pictures for a thread. Its a huge building dating back to the early 1800s
Emmet, don't be such a worry wort. Just give it a try. Once you do one, you'll never look back.
Heres a bunch waiting to be installed on a 12 unit townhouse.
The two pictures show dormers lying on the ground will be sent up and used to cover the openings in the roof. The dormers aren't elaborate...we just build what we are told, but we didn't have much time in them. The framer built them in a day with a helper.
blue
Hi Blue,
Thanks for your vote in confidence. I'm going to make it a new years resolution to perfect doing them on the ground.
Did ye do them all in a day?
Edited 12/16/2006 1:30 pm ET by emmetnee
hey, that is a good idea. i'm going to have to store it in the ole memory bank for future reference!