Copper ball valve installation question.
skinman
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Quick question on plumbing. I am just a do it yourselfer, not a professional. Do copper ball valves need disassembled and all of the nylon removed to safely sweat them in? An article in the most recent issue of fine homebuilding states that you can leave the whole valve intact; just make sure the valve is fully closed so that the nylon washer will not distort. I find this difficult to bevieve because the valve ends are cast and require even more heat than a standard joint, but if someone has actually put them in this way and they don’t leak, let me know because it would save me a ton of time in the future. Thanks.
Replies
Experienced plumbers can sweat copper ball valves without ruining the plastic parts. Plumbers get experienced by sweating a lot of joints, and ruining a few valves along the way. If you're going to do it professionally, those toasted valves are part of the price of the education.
If you're only going to do one or two in a lifetime, that's a waste. You have two options: Either disassemble the plastic parts, or use threaded valves and sweat thread adapters onto your copper pipe. I usually go the threaded valve route, especially for hose bibs. That way I can replace them when they wear out simply by turning, not burning.
-- J.S.
I've installed dozens of those valves, all intact. I install them in a partially open position and have never had a leakage problem. If you have the venting varity, remove the rubber gasket prior to sweating, and remember to reinstall it afterwards.
Enjoy.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I've also sweated quite a few ball valves and never taken the guts out. Heat it real gently, just enough to get a bit of solder in there, then quit.
Heat it fast, acetylene torch. The slow cook with MAPP gas will finally get a 1/2" hot, anything bigger takes more heat and will be more likely to cook the guts with a low heat source.
Joe H
a novice might want to stick a toothpick in the vent hole as well to prevent solder from clogging it.
Sweat them with the valve full open. Use a torch that puts out sufficient heat -- not your bottom-of-the-line propane unit.
happy?
Edited 11/22/2005 11:15 pm by DanH
Well I saw Bob Villa sweat one in once so I might have a bit of a clue.
LOL LOL
No need to take it apart, but remember you're not trying to start nuclear fusion either.
Heat pipe to valve on a 3 to 1 ratio, keep tip pointed away from the center of the valve & towards the pipe.
Use the material to melt the solder not the torch. Start at the bottom & move solder to the top.
One last thing with todays water soluble flux you don't need as much heat as acid base flux.
Just saw an article about this in FHB(I think?). Said to sweat 'em with the valve CLOSED -- supposedly helps keep the nylon from getting out of round. Personally, I have never paid much attention to it. I just make sure everythings dry and shiny-clean so I can work fast. Once sweated, I wipe the valve with a damp cloth to cool it down faster. Never had a problem.
Mike Hennessy
OPEN will keep them from getting out of round.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Article in Jan FHB says full port ball valves should be soldered with the valve closed unless pressure or steam is an issue -- then only slightly open. This is to prevent a ridge from being melted into the nylon seal and having it leak later.
Why do you say to solder it while open?
Article says all other valves should be soldered open to protect the rubber gasket.
TimYou buy a cheap tool twice and then you're still stuck with a cheap tool!
I thought ball valves were teflon and stainless inside. Teflon is tough stuff, takes a lot of heat to melt.
I solder them partially open all the time to allow a vent path, not only to vent any vaporization from residual water during the sweating process, but also from expansion of trapped air. On especially short lengths, I've seen the trapped, heated air lift caps off the pipe before the solder can solidify. Doesn't happen with a vent path, hence, leaving the valve open. And I've never had one leak due to seat damage caused by the process.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I crack them open. Allows any moisture between the ball and the seal to escape. Had one blow on me once, sounded like a shotgun. The valve was full open.
If you live in a freezing climate, ball valves outdoor should be left half open. Moisture between the ball and the seal will freeze and may break the valve body.
You'll get more of a ridge with the valve closed.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I'm with the solder them open crowd. The ball has a hole drilled throgh it. If the valve is open, the smooth part of the ball is in contact with the teflon liner. If the valve is closed, the smooth part of the ball is in mid air (look inside and see it) and the teflon is pressing against air for a large area. Frank DuVal
Representing the building owner, I am in the habit of salvaging and re-using valves in reconfiguring plumbing works.
With compression and gate valves, I have yet to cook a seal or washer as it is my practise to remove the bonnet and stem from the body during soldering or desoldering of the valve.
Several years ago, we switched to ball valves exclusively, primarily because they are comparatively maintenace free. However, before the ultimate decision was made, we consulted with the technical department of a large manufacturer of valves and expressed our concerns about the repeated heating to which valves can be exposed in my company's environment; this was of particular concern with ball valves as they were not subject to disassembly.
We were advised by this manufacturer that it had experimented with the destruction of the valve's teflon interior lining by repeated heating and reheating of specimens; todate, they had yet to either destroy or render a ball valve nonservicable.
This manufacturer's advice was to conduct soldering/desoldering of the valve in the "open" position, to minimize overheating (if that is possible).
So for those who have referred to the ball valve's lining as being of nylon, (which material would have gone up in smoke early in the sweating process), you all now know that this lining is comprised of Teflon (....... almost indestructable?).
Now that ball valves are readily available with compression x compression joints, we have dropped the sweating of valves, as the compression connection provides the further advantages of a union at each valve position and precluding the unwanted desolding of a nearby pipe joint, usually located behind a wall surface.
I solder with the valve cracked open a little to allow any steam to escape.
The key to soldering is to have a good torch. I use a Mapp fired Turbo Torch, Turbo-Lite.
Start by applying some heat on the pipe just beyond the valve. Then move to the valve. Wipe the excess flux off. Now move the heat around adding solder as needed to get even penetration. Wipe once more and admire.