Some advice would be welcome
Am using a sheet of copper as a backsplash and cutting openings for the electrical boxes (already installed). Electrical is 4 separate 20 amp circuits on the appropriate blue GFI breakers.
Question is can the metal tabs on the outlets touch the copper ?
And if so, does it make it safer ? Or no differrence?
Logically it seems to me that if one cicuit were to short, it would momentarily electrify the whole wall. And if the breaker didn’t work for some reason i suspect it would stay electrified until the main circuit blew.
If needed I can trim the copper back and insulate the backsplash with some electrical tape near the outlets to guarantee no contact.
The boxes themselves are metal, but are recessed a 1/4 inch from drywall face.
Thanks !
Gavin Pitchford
“Sail fast – live slow” (build even slower)
Replies
I'd keep a barrier as you suggest and hold it back. You could also solder a ground wire to the copper splash itself and ground it to the box ground (if permitted by the NEC).
wouldn't soldering it to the box ground do exactly what contact with the metal tabs would do ? Tie it to the ground ?Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Isn't solder a No No in house wiring ? Too many problems w/ corrosion at the joint, leading to high resistances followed by potential fires.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
"Isn't solder a No No in house wiring ? "Soldering is OK.The limitation is that there needs to get a good mechanical connection and not depend on the solder to hold the joint together.As to the original question -The code requires that metal that can be contacted and LIKELY to be come ACCIDENTLY energized needs to be grounded. Thus metal siding is not normally grounded.But electrically powered machines do have to be grounded, but not a gas engine powered washer.Now this is just my opinion, but with the copper having receptacles and maybe switches cut into it then I thing that it should be grounded. If it was, for example, around a breakfast nook and did not have any receptacles in it then I would say know.My though is that if the ears on the yokes went over the copper and was tightened down then it would be enough to make a ground.I don't think that the metal clip would work as the copper is probably way too thin..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill, to elaborate a bit by copying from Electrical Contractor Magazinehttp://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=6268"Twisting conductors together for splices and taps and then soldering them is still an acceptable method of making connections. In 110.14(B) this sentence appears: “Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered.†Tightly twisting the conductors together makes them mechanically and electrically secure and prepares them for solder. Solder flux used on the splice cannot adversely affect the conductors or equipment."Because equipment-grounding conductors are being connected together, it is appropriate to look at connection methods permitted in Article 250-Grounding and Bonding. There is a sentence in 250.8 that limits the use of solder, but it does not apply to this question. The sentence that restricts the use of solder reads: “Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used.â€
I suspect, but am not positive, that the copper backsplash will be required to be bonded to the already grounded, metal, switch box.
I say this because even though the copper may not be in contact with the metal box, the edge of the copper will be under the cover plate and therefore "inside" of the box enclosure.
This could be easily accomplished with a ground clip onto the edge of the copper, then a jumper wire to a ground screw of one box.
A ground clip is designed to capture the edge of a switch box and a ground wire at the same time -- I suspect it will work fine on the edge of the copper.
Ground clips are manufactured for use when upgrading older metallic boxes manufactured without any ground screw holes in them. Electrical supply house or BB stores carry them here. Cheap = > $0.20 each
Others will chime in soon......
Jim
Edited 10/10/2009 7:00 pm ET by JTC1
The copper is not required to be bonded and will NOT be "inside" the box, even if it is under the cover plate.We cannot rely on solder alone. A sound mechanical connection is required before soldering. Just snug down the devices and be done with it.
>>will NOT be "inside" the box, even if it is under the cover plate.<<
I think, based on past experience, that would be a pretty hard sell to my inspector.....
>> A sound mechanical connection is required..... <<
And a listed ground clip does not qualify as such a mechanical connection, but "snugging down" the devices does?
OK, if you say so.....
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"And a listed ground clip does not qualify as such a mechanical connection, but "snugging down" the devices does?
OK, if you say so....."
No. I didn't say so. I never said anything about ground clips. I was commenting on the solder question.
I see we have a few bits of confusion to clear up here ...
The NEC requires metal 'likely to become energized' to be bonded (grounded). I'm not sure your backsplash qualifies, but it won't hurt.
Now, how to do it? Simple; use a metal cover plate. The mounting screw socket is bonded to the ground inside the receptacle or switch.
Will corrosion be a problem? Not likely. Corrosion between dissimilar metals depends largely on the amount of current flowing; since this connection will not usually be energized, there won't be much current flow. You can easil find brass and copper cover plates, btw.
Will the wall become energized? Well, that's what the GFCI is there to prevent. While a breaker will often require a very large amount of current to flow before tripping, a GFCI trips if the tiniest bit of current gats "lost." Bonding the copper to the electrical system will help the GFCI do a better job.
If, for some reason, you want to stay with plastic cover plates .... no problem. They make little spring clips that can be used to attach a ground wire to the sheet metal.
Edited 10/10/2009 8:28 pm ET by renosteinke
Edited 10/10/2009 9:16 pm ET by renosteinke
>>They make little spring clips that can be used to attach a greound wire to the sheet metal.<<
Those would be sold under the name of "ground clip".
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
The GFCI does you no good if the line wire from the GFCI contacts the copper somehow.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Sure it does.
Maybe it's time to explain how a GFCI works.
The GFCI measures current coming in through the hot wire, and also measures current going out through the neutral. Thise two measurements must be the same, or it trips.
If the copper backsplash is bonded, gurrent will flow through the ground wire - so the neutral will only be carrying some of the current that has already gone in through the hot. So, there will be a difference - and the GFCI will trip.
Sure it doesn't, if, as I said, the copper becomes energized from the line side of the GFCI.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Oh, you meant from before the power ever gets to the GFCI? No kidding.
Bond it, have a good return path, and you have a better chance of tripping the breaker.
Edited 10/10/2009 9:34 pm ET by renosteinke
Yep, that's what I said. All it would take is a wire popping loose in a crowded box.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Been monitoring with (gratreful) interest. Thanks to all for their interest and comments.I would say the only way the copper backsplash could get energized is if a line did somehow break loose in the box and touch the ground - at which point I should think the GFI trips? (The chances, given the amazing wiring job I have done,;-) I would suggest is slim. Haven't yet had a wire break loose in a box I've wired in the past 25 years and with 20 AMPS on these, I was extra careful. I have the wire wrapped 350 degrees round the screw, and then I taped over the connections 2 or 3 layers, anticipating wanting to ensure no possible way to energize the box, short of squirting the tap right in.If on the other hand I ensure no possible opportunity for the copper to contact the ground or any other wire - by trimming it back far enough it was under the face plate but not under the tabs and or insulated from the receptacle with tape... Does that not solve the problem ?Otherwise, to ground it, cutting it tighter to the receptace and then simply clamping the receptactles "tails" (or tabs or whatever those things are called) down on top of the copper would do that, would it not ?for the record, I have a supply of grounding clips, and could readily ground the copper as well, and the copper sheet is fairly substantial - actually high end roofing material I had custom cut from a 3x8 sheet - 15 mil? maybe more. Certainly more than thick enough to engage the grounding clips I have. Grounding directly to the breaker box is not an option I want to undertake just from a convenience sake - would require cutting through cabinets, insulation etc.Net, the question seems to remain: to ground or to isolate - I can do either... Which is the best choice ?
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
I say: ground it.
Definitely ground. I'd just make sure that the grounding is done in at least two places.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
BTW, if you wrapped the wires instead of using the backwired (not backstab!!) feature you increased the chance of a wire coming loose and causing a problem. All the GFCI outlets I've seen recently are equipped for backwiring, and I make a point to buy backwire-able outlets when I buy non-GFCIs.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I used 20 amp circuit and receptacles, and bit the bullet and paid for 4 GFI 20 amp circuit breakers instead of individual receptacles - partly because I didn't use a big enough box for the GFI receptacles. All of my boxes house double receptacles. I taped in addition to the screw connections because I believe the tape not only reduces the risk of the live wire touching the box or the receptacle beside it, but it also greatly reduces the chances of the screw itself loosening. But the screw would have to come completely off to free the wire and I just don't see that happening.The tape also allows me to mess arround a little with the positioning of the receptacles laterally without worrying about inadvertently touching the side of the box with the line.Thanks to all.Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
The GFCI breakers would presumably protect against a short to the copper, better than GFCI outlets.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
> partly because I didn't use a big enough box for the GFI receptacles.I've not found GFCI outlets to need a much bigger box than regular ones. A little more neatness in wiring is required, though.And some argue that taping over the screw heads is a bad idea (and I seem to recall some inspectors rejecting this) because it could supposedly cause corrosion to the screws. I don't hold this view personally, though.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
"I believe the tape not only reduces the risk of the live wire touching the box or the receptacle beside it, but it also greatly reduces the chances of the screw itself loosening."
Absolutely 1000% false (the bold part).
Tape will have NO bearing or impact on the tightness or stability of a screw. No more than it will keep a wire nut on tightly.
Tape is good to keep the screws from contacting the sides of a metal box. That's it.
Seriously ?
a piece of decent electrical tape adhering to the surface of the large screw head - with its stickiness - in no way reduces the liklihood of the nut loosening ? I find that extremely difficult to accept. The sheer strength / resistance of the tape has to be at least somewhat helpful in adding friction that resists random loosening from vibration.
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Tape adhesive has an enormous amount of "creep", and would not significantly restrain a screw that was being torqued over a period of months or years.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
yeah yeah - but more resistance than say - air ?Gavin Pitchford"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Edited 10/10/2009 11:56 pm ET by Accelar
"I believe the tape not only reduces the risk of the live wire touching the box or the receptacle beside it, but it also greatly reduces the chances of the screw itself loosening."
Absolutely 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.000% true. The bold part, that is.
Just as effective as a rubber washer, a dab of any paint, or the tiniest bit of corrosion. SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
Whatever Sam. If you think a few wraps of electrical tape is going to keep the wire terminations tight have at it. I'll even send you some scrap rolls of tape in many different colors.
Just know that I and every other qualified electrician is rolling their eyes and chuckling right now. Not that I expect you to care in the least.
SamT said "Just as effective as a rubber washer, a dab of any paint, or the tiniest bit of corrosion. "He is 100% correct, taping does indeed provide a minuscule amount of protection.You are coming off as a pain in the #### to me.
Dam, I am crushed.
I'll be a good boy from now on and be agreeable with everyone.
Just tone it down a little. It's obvious that you know what you're talking about, you don't need to bitch slap everyone though.
He is 100% correct
NO!!!!!!
<!---->I am 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000%<!---->correct.
LOLSamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
You made that up!
Well?
It's a statistic.
Whaddayawant!SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
You gotts a point there.
I'll even send you some scrap rolls of tape in many different colors.
Would you, please?SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
If he doesn't want the tape, I'll take it ;-)I suspect there are a few physicists rolling their eyes now too...I'm only an amateur electrician and equally an amateur physicist, but I see the tape as providing two types of resistance: not only the adhesive resisting the loosening of the screw on the face of the screw head, but the two+ wraps of tape resisting anything which tries to expand the circumference of the wraps. Once the tape creep from overstretching has settled, a screw that "wanted" to loosen would have to fight at least 6 or 7" of tape on tape adhesion - or stretch the tape. I find it difficult to accept that a little screw having to twist against adhesion on its own surface would also muster sufficient strength to stretch the tape - or be able to push 6 inches of tape on tape into a looser configuration as fast as if the tape weren't there. I have an experiment for you (and all the other electricians rolling their eyes). (.} (.) (') (') (.) (.)Take a standard receptacle and loosen the screw enough that you can turn it freely with one of those little precision drivers. Pick the smallest one you can to get the screw to move - ie the width of the slot plus a tiny margin to allow the driver to bear on the sidewall surface of the slot.Then tape the screw down with a double circumference wrap of tape.
Cut a hole in the tape over top of the center of the screw head only barely big enough to allow the selected precision driver access to the slot. This will reduce the pressures described above, but so long as the hole is small enough not enough to matter.Now try and remove the screw... I'm thinking its gonna be a lot harder... if even possible.Then take a receptacle with the screw head loosened to the same position as the one in the experiment. Throw both the taped and untaped receptacle in the back of your trunk / truck, and see which comes undone from vibration first.... and by how many months.... or years ...Gavin Pitchford"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Edited 10/11/2009 9:19 am ET by Accelar
Ok, once and for all. I am NOT talking about keeping a loose screw from falling out, and I am not interested in some physics experiment.
I am talking about tightening down a device screw properly, and the fact that someone thinks some electrical tape wrapped around the device will keep it from loosening.
I am going to just agree to disagree.
I had guessed a full fledged retraction was pretty much out of the question LOL but for the redcord, didn't say "it would keep it from loosening - I said something to the effect that it would REDUCE the likelihood.But please - send the tape !!I'm gonna go check those screws are all tight right now - seeing as this project has taken so long they've been in the wall for about 4 years just waiting for the backsplash.But this forum has been so much fun - what's another day ?And as for the 100,000,000,000 etc % + right - well we all know 46.3 % of statistics are made up on the spot...Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Umm. Don't mean to butt in, however if SpeedyPete sends SamT the tape, and SamT sends some to you, could you send me a roll of red if there is some? I like to use it to identify hot water pipes.
"I used 20 amp circuit and receptacles,"Unless you have some appliances that have 20 amp plugs on them you are wasting money with 20 receptacles..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
was running my table saw and dust collection system off them for a while - blew them on 15 and as it was going to be the base for a while and the box immediately underneath, figured it was worth it.For a while I was the only guy I knew with a cast iron dining room table ;-) (Its a General!)But I wanted to be able to run the 4 slice toaster and the sandnwich press and the espresso maker all plugged in randomly simultaneously without worrying about it.
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
I was talking about the ratings of the individual receptacles, not the circuit.All duplex receptacels are rated for 20 amps freed through and 20 amps total on the duplex. The 15 or 20 amps is only affects the rating of each half.The NEC allows for the use of 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits if you have more than one receptacle on the circuit. And the duplex counts as two.Forgot that you where in Canada. I don't think that you are allowed that option..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
A 15 amp duplex receptacle has two receptacles, each of which is rated for 15 amps. Connected to a 20 amp circuit, it could support two 10 amp loads simultaneously or one 15 amp load and one 5 amp load, but not a 20 amp load on one of its receptacles.A 20 amp duplex receptacle has two receptacles each rated for 20 amps, but not running simultaneously.I doubt that any of your kitchen appliances exceeds 15 amps draw.As for connecting the wires under the screws instead of using the back wired connection, I'd say that is a waste of effort and more, not less, likely to result in a short or broken wire. Back wire connections (not back stab) on GFCI and Spec grade non-GFCI receptacles are quite beefy and can be tightened very securely. Moreover, the screw heads on the ones I've used remain recessed below the surrounding plastic body, so they are unlikely to touch the side of a metal box or the frame of an adjoining device while being pushed in or pulled out. When you twist your wire around the screw and tighten it down, it makes the screw head stand a little higher and is thus more likely to touch the box or another device.
BruceT
The 20 amp receptacles are duplex receptacles, but each running to separate circuits although I have several boxes served by the same circuits. Each box served by 4 circuits.I accept its overkill, but given the proximity to the breaker box and the issue with the saw, I saw it as a small investment to avoid running up and down stairs to reset if the saw hit a tough piece of cherry and I will never ever have to worry about load in the kitchen.I noted it in case anyone cared in response to the backsplash material grounding question.Years ago, we all had 10 am and 5 amp fuses. Then we created 15 amp motors and devices.... As much as I figure it was helpful for power tools, now, I also figure an investment in the future. With the investment in the insulation in the walls I never want to have to pull another wire...Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
I am late in this but I do have a stainless steel back splash and I did leave the ears on my devices. I pulled them up tight to the boxes, clamping the stainless (with the fiber washers removed). I also have a bonding lug connected to the SS that is solidly connected to the EGC for the cooktop with a #8 solid. That gives me 3 clean paths back to ground.
I'm sorry. I thought you were planning to use 20amp outlets in the kitchen. 20A is absolutely a good idea in the workshop where you might plug in a 120V machine which could pull 20 amps at times.BruceT
The only thing that keeps a fastener from loosening is proper torque. Doesn't matter if it is a screw on a duplex receptacle, an engine head bolt or a lug nut.
Tape... lockwashers and the like do nothing.
If a screw loosens on a receptacle, it means either it wasn't tightened properly, it was overtightened, or the circuit is overheating.
Danski: You just stole my thunder. Screws don't loosen by themselves. Even properly torqued screws will loosen w/ the right heat/cool, expansion/contraction sequence over a long enough period. I owned four rental properties in FLA. They were built during the period that Al wires could be used in new construction. One day had a service panel fire. Replaced the panel, but had the electrician go check all other boxes. Found a bunch of lose wires! Even Cu wire, if heated enough can cause this to happen.Tape would not have stopped that!DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I'll send some of that thunder out ASAP
..." owned four rental properties in FLA. They were built during the period that Al wires could be used in new construction. One day had a service panel fire. Replaced the panel, but had the electrician go check all other boxes. Found a bunch of lose wires! Even Cu wire, if heated enough can cause this to happen.Tape would not have stopped that!"no... but do you think it might have slowed it down...?Gavin Pitchford"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Edited 10/11/2009 2:36 pm ET by Accelar
> no... but do you think it might have slowed it down...?Nope. Tape would have just retained heat and hastened the degradation of the connection, then contributed to the fire when it overheated.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Nope, not one bit. The forces exerted by expanding metal are fearsome - the tape would stretch. The screw threads are a wedge (AKA a simple tool!); apply that force to the wedge & it multiplies.Like Dan H said, it would mere contribute to the fire once it started.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
BTW, if you wrapped the wires [around the screw] instead of using the backwired [also a screw?] (not backstab!!) feature
Dan, whats the difference between wrapping and backwiring? Don't they both involve screws that one would wrap around?SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
> Dan, whats the difference between wrapping and backwiring? Don't they both involve screws that one would wrap around?Nope, with backwired you slide the straight wire between to plates and tighten the plates against it with the screw. Very secure, very easy to connect, very reliable, high-quality connection.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Thanks.
Different terminology.
Compression terminals = Backwire.SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
Another vote for: ground it.....at every box.
RE: Ground clips firmly / securely engaging the edge of the copper sheet.
I got curious and tried it with some aluminum flashing on hand in the "warehouse".
Results:
Just the clip with no wire installed underneath = no grab.
Clip + #12 copper wire = grabs it somewhat, firm finger pressure will engage or remove - harder to remove due to the clip's "spur" digging in.
I then squeezed the clip with needle nose pliers at the factory formed "pinch point"; the "compressed" clip + #12 copper wire = now required a flat screwdriver "pusher" to install on edge and pliers to remove. Seems like a good connection.
My highly unscientific testing utilized an Ideal brand ground clip and some cheesey aluminum flashing material; flashing miked at .011" thick - no idea what sheet metal gauge that is.....
I suspect your copper roofing material is considerably thicker as a 3'x8' sheet this thin would have virtually no rigidity and seemingly would easily buckle / crimp during even careful handling.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks for the advice.
Would having the tabs sit on top of the copper and then applying enough pressure not achieve the same result (particularly if I taped the front screws holding it to the box !! - that was a joke y'all) ?In thinking about it, I could actually cut the hole for the box but leave a 1/2" strip at the same height as the ground screw, position the strip over top of the ground screw hole, and then screw the ground screw right through it. I'm assuming that's a physical connection nothing is likely to break (especially if I taped it ;-)Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
1/2" strip @ ground screw elevation.......
Sounds perfect if you can achieve the required bends and hole through it.
Snugging down the tabs could also work, but in your case I am slightly skeptical since you said the boxes are 1/4" recessed - maybe.....continuity meter would tell.
Only problem I have with relying on the tabs alone is that the ground connection is broken as soon as you loosen the outlet screws for any maintenance in the future.
You may be cautious and always turn off the breaker to the circuit, but what about that future "other guy" who may follow you......
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Are you old enough to recall the Jack Benny joke that depended on screwing up the phrase "Boy did that grass reek!! You are riding the tape thing like Jack Benny did the screwed up line "Boy did that grease rack!" Hey, like Rahm Emmanuel says - never waste a good crisis! Hang in there!DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
... and obviously loose screws are a problem that many people here have had to overcome ;o)
good one - LOL
If only I had more tape !Gavin Pitchford"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Edited 10/12/2009 12:37 am ET by Accelar
This is starting to sound like the reincarnation of the infamous Mistress El who claimed that electrical tape would block RFI..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
So the idea of a tab left on the copper backsplash and then bent inside and connected to the groud connection seemed to work okay as per pictures attached (tape removed for clarity!!)Although it did take some work to find 5 longer screws that fit. The two sheets of copper (on two walls) are now grounded to all 5 boxes. Some redundant as the boxes are connected to each other.Thanks to everyone who weighed in with an idea or comment. Much appreciated.Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
I'm sure there are inspectors who'd have trouble with this because the copper tab isn't "approved", but it seems to be an elegant solution to me.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I agree. It gets the job done but it's complinace is questionable.
Very nice.
Yes, elegant.SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
I can't imagine a better bond.
Looks good! If you change it to the hot you can do pancakes for 50 ;o)
Edited 10/12/2009 10:40 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Nice!
I cannot think of a better conductor than the copper sheet itself.
Seamless / jointless bonding strap.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I am an inspector and I am OK with it.
If the strap was bonded on the outside of the box I can't think of anything anyone could say. The only question I could possibly come up with the way it is, would be "how did you compute that box fill" but I would be grinning. ;-)
Thanks guys - Made my weekend. It's great for an amateur to get some praise from the pros.Someday soon I'll post the kitchen & dining room and porch that Breaktime built.Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
I'm a bit anal about such things, but if I could arrange to make the connection somewhere hidden (say, to a folded-under edge of the copper), I'd attempt to ground the copper separately from the outlets, running the ground wire down next to the pipes and making the connection with the ground system in a utility area (where the connection would be visible). Then you're protected if a more tenuous ground connection between box and backsplash should get disrupted some time in the future.
Ground it. You are fighting the problem, hoping someone will tell you that you don't need to do it when deep in your heart you know you should - or you would not have asked the question.
You have copper, water & electricity all in the same location, w/ many opportunities every day for someone to get zapped.
Which Murphy's law applies here? the one that says "If something can go wrong, it will!"
Ground it & everyone's safe. As someone said - ground it in two places.
Don Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Thanks Don
but seriously - the additional effort is negligible - i really wan't sure which was better - I could see the possibility of energising the wall as being a bad thing, avoided by keeping the copper further from the boxes / receptacles.But the overall advice seems to be to ground it, so that sets me on course to make the right cuts tomorrow morning !Thanks to all for the adviceGavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)