I have just made new kitchen cabinets and was thinking about copper for the countertops. I haven’t found any articles in FHB about the pros and cons of copper for countertops nor any articles instructing on how to manufacture them. Any ideas?
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Replies
Sounds pretty expensive like copper sinks.
Will love to see the links people post here.
BE hard (soft?)
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The copper I am getting here is about 2.50 a pound I think, and a pound per sq.ft..if that helps.
I was gonna do an Island top in it, Greencu ( the on board guru of cu) was gonna applie it to my premade top..he mentioned that he could fold it all around a MDF core.
He's on vacation, but when he returns next week or so I am sure he'll set ya straight
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Had luch with him today.
If I'd only known, I'd have asked him so I could fill in his blanks.
Good Man
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yes...he is a great guy..we hook up every few weeks...he has some work for me to do for him too..man, he does beautiful stuff with coppper.
I just brought home 110 LF of ridge roll , right b4 he left.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
There was a discussion about copper bar and counter tops over at Knots not too long ago. At least I think it was at Knots, since nobody is pointing you to one here. First button on the left in the second row of buttons at the top of the window.
Look into high pressure laminate with a copper face -- y'know, formica. Several of the manufacturers of this stuff offer it. A really good thing about using metal-faced HPL is that the issue of bonding the metal to the substrate is already taken care of -- you just use whatever method you use for conventional HPL.
Edited 8/1/2004 10:10 pm ET by JAMIE_BUXTON
It was my understanding that these metal veneers on laminates were recommended for vertical surfaces (i.e., backsplashes) and not flat surfaces. I may be wrong about that.
Just a point of view from my wife's perspective: She won't allow me to install a copper sink because of all the work to keep it polished.
I am also replacing my cabinets and am interested in whether you build your cabinets from scratch or used a cabinet house like Sheers or IKEA?
Sid
I think comparing Scherr's cabinets to Ikea stuff is like apples to applesauce.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
More like comparing apples for table to drops for the hogs
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just bought 80 sf of copper for a roof job Satruday -- it might be sold by the pound but they measure the lengths out and sell if for $3.79 a sf -- I too wwould like part of the kitchen coutner top in CU and would be interested in any lessons learend -- I liked the idea of CU over MDF -- nice weight, cheap, stable, easy to cut etc -- How do they do thoes kitchen sinks? Do they just have a big press that stamps them out -- has anyone tried to make one? I have seen some prices of $1600 to $2000 for a copper singk and then I saw the ad for the "German Silver Butlers Sink" for $7800.
2-3grand for a hand made copper sink is not uncommon at all.
The copper most used for roof flashing just happens to work out to a pound per square foot, so the lb/ft price comparison is valid. There may be a reason that Sphere is getting a good price from CU, I don't know. my most recent copper purchase was 3.75/ft and several years ago it was 3.00/sq ft.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your prices concur with what I can get it at.
Most recent purchase of 16 oz copper (per ft²) was$3.94 plus tax.
Sphere must get good pricing from Greencu.
Jon Blakemore
Piffster..as Greencu tells me, copper goes up an down DAILY..so, the prices are very approximate...
fer instance..I also got some 8'' x 30' of lead...one batch in may? was 68.00...next was in june/july at 130.00....whew..that's a jump...
Basically I look at cu as valley's and ridges..(18'', for wag) and it's gonna cost some one...at least 5.oo a foot. with labor for the bends.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Well, I was going to say something about new horse feed to processed horse feed, but didn't want to offend any DIY gen-x Ikea advocates.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
In this case from scratch though if I'd gone the Ikea route the ongoing discussion titled" when are they going to be finished" would have been over five years ago!
Dmc
Bad things I've heard about copper are that it's similar to stainless steel in that it is soft and it scratches easily. Another is that it will oxidize--needs polishing unless you lacquer it or otherwise seal it. (Or you want patina, which might look good too, although spills of acid foods or juices could take the patina off.) I think it would look great; maybe like wooden countertops, you just have to be a little more careful with them.
Frank Lloyd Wright used copper countertops in a few of his houses. In fact there was an article about that in a FHB many years ago--I think the owner ended up replacing it with something less soft. I think it was the same article where the guy had to pump "mud" under the concrete floor because it had been built in Georgia clay and had settled and cracked.
I've also heard that it is a soft material for countertops. I've seen it, though, and it looks wonderful against the varnished fir that I used for the cabinets. What I am really looking for is any information about how to construct a counter out of copper. I want to install a undermounted sink but I've received conflicting information about whether I can if I go the copper route. The alternative counter top material under consideration is concrete and FHB has published articles about how to go that route. I just don't recall anything about how to make a copper counter top.
I am no expert but here are a few thing regarding copper.
1. It will deform over time. Than means it won't always lay dead flat. This will occur in areas that get a lot of use and banged and lots of hot and cold.
2. It will tarnish/ patina. You have todecide to constantly polish it or let it be and enjoy/ appriciate the patina. I vote for the patina. Tomato sauce will take the patina right off. But the spills and drops will offer a dif layering of the patina. I like.
3. In order to have an undermount sink you will need to have the copper bend over the sink basin edge on 4 sides. You can't do this (try it with a sheet of paper and you'll see what I mean) unless you stretch the copper oround the corners. To do this you will need to make several forms and have a strong sack of sand under the copper: Copper sheet/ form/ sand bag.Bang the copper with a round wood mallet, into the form with the sand acting as under support so the copper doesn't tears as easily. Bang easy. The marks/ dents made by the tool create character. Every hit is your signature.
4. Think ahead of time how you will transition into the sink. 1lb copper is not thick enough to shape into a kitchen sink.
5. Do not glue the copper to the substrate.
6. Use a break to bend the edges. Solder the outside corners.
F.
I do a lot of laminate work. I see no reason why you couldn't laminate copper sheet goods to a plywood substrate. The problems I see would be water getting into any seams and the durability of copper. It would scuff very easily. Also waste copper. Maybe as high as 30% depending on the sizes available.
Sorry, just found this thread.
I have just made new kitchen cabinets and was thinking about copper for the countertops. I haven't found any articles in FHB about the pros and cons of copper for countertops nor any articles instructing on how to manufacture them. Any ideas?
I agree with most of the previous posts. I have made several copper counter tops. I made two food prep surfaces for a resturant about 10-12 yrs ago and they're still in service.
Bad things I've heard about copper are that it's similar to stainless steel in that it is soft and it scratches easily. Another is that it will oxidize--needs polishing unless you lacquer it or otherwise seal it. (Or you want patina, which might look good too, although spills of acid foods or juices could take the patina off.) I think it would look great; maybe like wooden countertops, you just have to be a little more careful with them.
Don't laquer it. The beauty of it is you work right on it and you don't want laquer chips in your food. The patina will constantly change as different food acids come in contact with it.
It will deform over time. Than means it won't always lay dead flat. This will occur in areas that get a lot of use and banged and lots of hot and cold.
When I make a top, I form it so it fits a little loose, so it doesn't oilcan when it gets hot. That's another advantage. Set your hot skillet right on it. It will get dings in it.
Think ahead of time how you will transition into the sink. 1lb copper is not thick enough to shape into a kitchen sink.
I once replaced a panel in an old copper bathtub. 20 oz was adequate for that, but I suspect a sink would take 32 oz or thicker. Most of my work is done on a brake. I'm not very experienced in heat and beat forming, although I've done some.
Just bought 80 sf of copper for a roof job Satruday -- it might be sold by the pound but they measure the lengths out and sell if for $3.79 a sf.
The copper I am getting here is about 2.50 a pound I think, and a pound per sq.ft..if that helps.
I buy around 50,000 lbs of copper a year. Consequently, I'm probably buying it cheaper than the place that sells it at $3.79. That's a by the sheet or partial roll price. There was a big jump recently which drove my retail price from about $2.20/lb to $2.65/lb. - today's price.
AHA!
Now I understand your monicker. Very clever.
F
50,000 lbs. a year?
How many guys do you have?
Jon Blakemore
How many guys do you have?
I've only got 5 right now and two of them shingle most of the time. One guy hasn't done anything but rebuild box gutter/cornice for over a year. I do all the fabrication and everyone else installs. I also fabricate for several of my competitors and I've got probably 30-40 semi regular customers who get me to make step flashing, valley, aprons and flags or specialty pieces like window head flashings. I just bent over 1000 lbs of copper for a state park visitor center. I have no idea what most of the shapes were for other than they were some type of flashing. Its a green bldg and the roof will be earth/grass so my guess is its mostly window flashing. I'm supposed to get some pictures soon or if I have time I'll drive to see it (it's a couple of hours away).
Green,
I have been wanting a copper countertop for a couple of years now, and everything I read makes me want one all the more. Since I live in the land of white bread where nothing original ever happens, I hope you'll be willing to help guide a novice in a couple of years when I tackle this, because I don't think I'll be able to find somebody local to do it. Is a break something that can be rented at a good tool supply? Also, I was wondering what you think about doing a vinegar wash to get the patina started?
Yeah, email me when you get ready to do it and I'll talk you thru it the best I can. You can probably rent a portable brake but, you'll need a helper to hold the sheet while you lock it and bend. Rentals are often out of tune, so it's worth sacrificing a piece of metal to test it before you do finish bending.
I tried to rent a break (metal "folder) from a rental placew and they didn't have them--told me that a good plumbing place might do the bends for me if I showed them what I wanted--may work for you with your countertop. Vinegar (being an acid) will not start the patina, but will make the copper very clean (will remove any patina that's already on it. There is something called "liver of sulfur" that we used in art class with copper tooling to darken the copper (but that tends to make it black or brown, bot "verdigris" (green)). Arts and crafts and hobby places have stuff that will turn it green. You could experiment with a small sheet of copper--I would think any sulfur-containing compound would make patina. Or eggs might do it?
Thanks for the knowlege of the effects of vinegar. My husband has some patination formulas that he uses on the copper solder in stained glass work. However I was hesitant to use those on a surface where I will be preparing food and was trying to think of a food based/safer alternative. Nice as that would be, I don't expect that the copper will patina to green, more like a bronzed brown color. I wonder what a wipe with diluted clorox would do?
practice on some pennies...then you will know.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Thought you'd be hitting the road by now. Have a good trip and give everyone except Clifford my regards.
posted a reply to you and pooof..it's gone
leavin for Douds @ 0500 thur. then we head east..straight thru till next morning...can you say coffee?
I'll tag Clifford with a sock of pennies for ya..LOL
gotta talk when I get back..we got posts and a church needin our attn.
see ya next week..wheeeeeee..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Edited 8/11/2004 5:46 pm ET by SPHERE
Sphere has a good idea--practice on pennies. I don't know what bleach will do. Do be careful with mixing stuff--you probably already know that bleach mixed with ammonia will produce a poisonous gas. One might think that since acid removes the oxidation, a base (like baking soda) might cause patina, but that sounds too easy. I suppose something that causes oxidation might work. If you could get very dilute nitric acid, that might do it. (I know, that counters what I said earlier about acid. Maybe very dilute pool cleaner (chlorine). Know any chemists? The penny idea is good too because if you create anything too toxic with your experiments, you won't create a lot of it.) Since you are dealing with a countertop that food might touch, you are right to consider the end product of this patina to make sure it's not too noxious. I think the sulfur idea using eggs would be the least dangerous and give probably the best results (and copper sulphate is green), other than the liver of sulfur I mentioned earlier which I know works. The stuff your husband uses would also be a good starting point.
> $2.65/lb. - today's price.
Last year I paid $1.47. The first transatlantic telegraph cable has been dead for about a hundred years, and contains about 20,000 tons of copper. And there are lots of other old undersea cables. All we have to do is figure out how to salvage them.
As for copper counter tops, some friends of mine had one (they later sold the house). The thing that bugged them is that every fingerprint, drop of liquid, or particle of food would cause a different chemical reaction, and leave a different kind of mark. You have to be able to let that be, because cleaning and polishing all the time will drive you nuts.
-- J.S.