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Copper Front Door…How?

PeterJ | Posted in Construction Techniques on March 28, 2005 04:02am

Got an ugly front door on our house…solid core slab with these applied raised panel thingies, (matched the goofy shutters I took off). The door itself is sound.  After reading about some of the copper adventures here, I started thinking about covering the exterior in copper sheet.

Sound feasible?

In the past I’ve tried to epoxy copper to wood with no success. Prepped surfaces well, high strength System 3 epoxy. Popped right off. I’m assuming copper is difficult to glue, and maybe I shouldn’t be gluing it anyway because of differential movement between door and sheet.

Door is well protected under 6′ eave. I’m thinking no exposed fasteners, but maybe that’s unrealistic. If I can work it out, I may do all exterior doors.

Any suggestions or ideas on how one could do this?

 

 

PJ

Everything will be okay in the end.  If it’s not okay, it’s not the end. 

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Replies

  1. User avater
    MarkH | Mar 28, 2005 04:03am | #1

    Copper nailz?

  2. VaTom | Mar 28, 2005 04:11am | #2

    I used silicon caulk.  Not 100%, but close. 

    Brass screws into the stiles and rails would work.

    PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

    1. User avater
      PeterJ | Mar 28, 2005 04:38am | #5

      I remember seeing that door here before, tis beautiful. Probably inspired the idea.

      Did you just gun silicone on and press sheets onto it?

      How'd you get the black effects?PJ

      Everything will be okay in the end.  If it's not okay, it's not the end. 

      1. VaTom | Mar 28, 2005 05:06am | #6

        Did you just gun silicone on and press sheets onto it?

        Yup.

        How'd you get the black effects?

        That's what happens to copper here when you let it sit around outside awhile in a pile.  Those swirls were carefully chosen.  I sprayed the copper with automotive clear coat to preserve them.  Guy whose seaming tools I'm currently borrowing wanted to know who'd done the artwork for me.  I guess he'd never left copper sitting around outside.  A few months of exposure and the coil copper I'm installing on my shed roof is similar.  Not preserving it there.  It'll be dull brown (like the house walls) by summer.  You've given thought to your preferred end result?  I wouldn't recommend it, but you're welcome to some commercial copper ageing solution I bought.  Turned the copper green, then flaked off in places leaving shiny copper.  I gave up on it.

        Pretty sure you're on the right track with flexible adhesive.  PL Premium?  You presumably know to leave the panels to float.

        Edit:  Guess your panels don't now float, never mind.  Also, when your epoxy failed, did you do a good job of cleaning the copper first?  It comes with a good coat of oil on it.

        PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

        Edited 3/27/2005 10:12 pm ET by VaTom

        1. User avater
          PeterJ | Mar 28, 2005 05:24am | #7

          I hear you on the panels, but these are applied, so I'd just pop them off.

          Thanks for the offer, I really hadn't given much thought to effects other than clear to preserve tone. I remember seeing an article in Fine Woodworking about someone doing some spectacular effects on wood with some copper infused paint? or something like that. I'll see if I can find it.

          Tried several times to glue copper strips to bubinga...sanded both surfaces, wiped with acetone..no dice, I could easily pop it off. I even talked to the guys at System Three to no avail. PJ

          Everything will be okay in the end.  If it's not okay, it's not the end. 

          1. VaTom | Mar 28, 2005 05:39am | #8

            You're right.  That's ugly.  You've been living with it how long?  Maybe you don't use the front door...

            I was editing while you were reading.  Caught the non-floating panels mistake.  And asked if you'd cleaned the copper carefully.  Starts out oily.  Pretty sure that's what makes the swirls.  When I pre-cleaned it for the clear coat, I was concerned about harming the swirls.  No problem.

            You could also use commercial copper polish to keep it shiny, but that's maintenance I avoid.  I'll be curious to see how long my finish lasts.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

          2. User avater
            PeterJ | Mar 28, 2005 06:07am | #10

            You're right.  That's ugly.  You've been living with it how long?  Maybe you don't use the front door...

             

            Only about a year and a half! And you're right, we use the side door...which is less ugly.

            You should have seen the lovely matching shutters. Imagine the door panels on a grander scale, panels were about a foot square :oPJ

            Everything will be okay in the end.  If it's not okay, it's not the end. 

          3. User avater
            Luka | Mar 28, 2005 10:33am | #11

            Instead of "no visible fasteners", why not go the other way...Buy copper scrap. Cutoffs. From a local metal or fabricator's shop.Then put them on with a ton of copper nails. Patchwork with nails !Lexel will glue anything to anything.

            The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.

  3. WayneL5 | Mar 28, 2005 04:14am | #3

    I can't recommend a glue, but a vacuum press might help.  Beware that it can crush some doors, though, so you have to be sure yours won't.

    1. User avater
      PeterJ | Mar 28, 2005 04:33am | #4

      You know, I thought of the vacuum bag...and I happen to have one.  You think Unibond or similar urea resin glue would work? I'm thinking I need a flexible glue line.

      The door is solid core, don't think I'll crush it!

      PJ

      Everything will be okay in the end.  If it's not okay, it's not the end. 

      Edited 3/27/2005 9:34 pm ET by Peter J

      1. User avater
        jazzdogg | Mar 29, 2005 03:57am | #26

        "think Unibond or similar urea resin glue would work? I'm thinking I need a flexible glue line."

        Peter,

        FWIW, I use Unibond-800 or Weldwood plastic cement as adhesive for glued-up laminations because it doesn't creep, i.e., because of its inflexibility.

        Good luck,

         -Jazzdogg-

        Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

  4. Floss | Mar 28, 2005 06:07am | #9

    Peter,

    You could also try copper leaf. It is the same process as applying gold leaf. You use a long oil varnish (slow drying) and once thay is tacky just apply the leaf.

    There are basically two types of leaf. Loose and patent. Loose leaf must be applied with a gilders tip which is a special brush made of squirrel tail. Patent leaf has a tissue backing which makes application quite simple and is easiest to use.

    Of course it may be cheaper to use sheet copper. However the leaf will not add any thickness to the door and is quite durable, the effect may not be exactly what you are looking for though.

    J.P.

    http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
  5. seeyou | Mar 28, 2005 01:27pm | #12

    Do you intend on keeping the raised panels or cover over them? One option is to get decorative head cu nails and make a pattern with them. Another option would be to cover the door and get cu molding to make a one or two panel door out of it and hide the nails under the raised molding.

    Luka's idea is good. You could cut waves or something in the cu and overlay them giving some relief to the whole thing.

    You're almost as paranoid as the people that're trying to kill me.

    1. Alphonse | Mar 28, 2005 01:45pm | #13

      J.P.'s idea about copper leaf is something to consider.You can also use powders-copper or bronze- in various media,laquer,urethane ,shellac,etc.Lots of effects possible by playing with where the metal sits in the strata.It can tarnish and develop patina as well.

    2. User avater
      CapnMac | Mar 28, 2005 09:29pm | #18

      get cu molding to make a one

      What about mechanically fastening (screws, nails) Cu strip, and soldering flat sheet Cu to that.  Would be a pain to tin up the parts, but the underlying strips could be slotted to move with expansion.

      It's more than a bit hare brained, but it might work.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

  6. Frankie | Mar 28, 2005 02:19pm | #14

    I don't think glue lamination will work, long term in an exterior application. Copper is an excellent conductor of heat and cold. This is why it is such a prized cooking material. It's continuous dif expansion and contraction rates will eventually weaken the bond to the substrate.

    Fastening the copper to the door with some type of screw must allow for this movement, otherwise the copper will buckle. Ex: the screw head must be bigger than the hole.

    How about routing out the surface of the doorskin and recess the copper panel. Cover/ protect the seam with a bead of Lexel and a strip of moulding - kinda to look like a single panel door. The copper would therefore float in the door.

    Just a thought.

    F

    1. User avater
      PeterJ | Mar 28, 2005 05:20pm | #15

      Oh man, lots of good ideas, y'all. Patchwork, powders, leaf...my imagination is cooking now!

      I did find the FWW issue with the effects I was remembering... it was leaf, not paint. For anyone interested issue 170, June 2004, page 100.

      Thanks for all the brainstorming!

      While I'm at it, I should probably make the door jamb more weathertight and less ugly. Currently has a little vinyl bulb seal  held in an aluminum strip. Vinyl is almost as hard as the aluminum, I'd guess :)  Would like to get the seal behind the stop if possible, anybody done that? I could cut a kerf in the jamb with Multimaster, but would have to accomodate the extra thickness somehow...maybe cut the stop back 1/4"?

      Why is it one idea always leads to another?

       

       PJ

      Everything will be okay in the end.  If it's not okay, it's not the end. 

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Mar 28, 2005 06:18pm | #16

        http://www.resourcetechnologies.com  fix ya right up with weather stripping. 

        Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        "Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi

        1. Frankie | Mar 28, 2005 09:43pm | #19

          That website does not work/ not found. Can you recheck this? I would find it quite helpful.Thanks, F

          1. User avater
            Sphere | Mar 28, 2005 09:52pm | #21

            Will do..

             

            OK...sorry, I FU'd

            here  http://www.conservationtechnology.com  

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            "Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi

          2. VaTom | Mar 29, 2005 01:58am | #22

            Ain't much of a web site.  Recently ordered a half mile of EPDM weatherstripping, I asked about it.  "Working on it."

            Everybody: just give them a call and ask.  Very good tech help available and they're great about sending out catalogs.  Got me squared away with transitioning from translucent panels to copper and aluminum.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

          3. User avater
            Sphere | Mar 29, 2005 02:03am | #23

            GOT the package today!

            Oak logs eh?  wish me luck, I gotta find some, not a one on my acrege...locust, walnut, coffee tree, maple..you name it..oak? fugget it.  I do have some fire wood left over..with shelf fungus already there, that work? It's red and white oak.

            Greens sound good..I gettin ready! 

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            "Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi

          4. VaTom | Mar 29, 2005 02:23am | #24

            Glad it got there.

            No firewood.  If you find an living oak make sure it's a small one.  Over 8" is too heavy to handle.  Everybody I know grows on oak, either red or white.  Some spawn has a slight preference, but it doesn't appear to make much difference.

            Walnut doesn't sound good, but other hardwoods are appropriate, according to Field&Forest Products (but they don't say which ones), whose spawn I no longer buy, not very active in Va.  We grew oyster mushrooms on maple once.  Interesting, but we didn't think it worth the effort.

            Remember, if you do start some logs, you're picking for the next 5-6yrs from one innoculation.  One bloom will yield easily 5 lbs.

            Those brandywine seeds are real slow to get going.  Hope they're OK.

            And you think you have time to garden.....PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

        2. User avater
          PeterJ | Mar 28, 2005 09:50pm | #20

          http://www.resourcetechnologies.com  fix ya right up with weather stripping.

           

          Hey sphere, that's link's  a dead end. Googled it...got nowhere. Any other possibilities?PJ

          Everything will be okay in the end.  If it's not okay, it's not the end. 

  7. DANL | Mar 28, 2005 09:15pm | #17

    I was lurking around the "Knots" forum ands under "Archives" there is a reply that gives an article in "Fine Woodworking" that talks about copper finishes. The thread title was something about copper finishes. Maybe you could find something useful there.

  8. JohnSprung | Mar 29, 2005 03:44am | #25

    Do you want to get rid of the raised thingies, and have a single flat copper surface for the whole door?  If so, how about this:

    Cut kerfs in the edges of the door on the tops and sides.  Bend the edges of the copper sheet into a sort of square-bottomed "J" shape that will latch into the kerfs on the tops and sides, and slide the two pieces together.  Then clamp a 2x4 across the bottom to hold the copper while you gradually bend the bottom edge under to hold it all in place.  This should give you plenty of room for expansion and contraction. 

    The only downside is that if you keep it shiny, it'll show every nick and ding.  If you let it patina naturally, fingerprints and hand marks will be highly visible for quite a while.

     

    -- J.S.

     

    1. User avater
      Sphere | Mar 29, 2005 01:48pm | #29

      spooky, I was thinkin the same thing..I guess a 1/16" slot cutter in a router is about right for 16 oz. CU.

      Kerf the top as well and fold and nail the bottom.

      It still may be wooogily in the middle of the door tho' when it expands. If y drill a peep-hole or a knocker, I see buckles. 

      Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

      "Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi

      1. seeyou | Mar 29, 2005 03:19pm | #30

        If y drill a peep-hole or a knocker, I see buckles.

        Drill your peep hole above waist high and you won't see buckles, but if you drill it chest high that opens up the possiblity of knockers.........................................You're almost as paranoid as the people that're trying to kill me.

        1. User avater
          Sphere | Mar 30, 2005 01:55am | #31

          LMAO..I set ya up for that. 

          Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          "Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi

  9. alias | Mar 29, 2005 04:28am | #27

    pj- on direct tv they have this fella named david marks he in my opinion is two or three notches above norm abrams. he is a northern californian woodworker and an extra ordinary craftsman. anyhow... he built this salvaged red wood copper panel garden gate out of if memory serves 48 oz copper panel with patina he aplied before he laminated the coppper to both sides of exterior grade apple plywood. he used a vaccum press i believe also . some of the techniques he used sounds like ajumping off point for your project. http://www.diynet.com is the link to start withand go to woodworking than woodworks. this guy is great to watch if you ever get the chance. good luck...slainte'

    "expectations are premeditated resentments"
  10. ponytl | Mar 29, 2005 05:36am | #28

    check out a 3M product  VHB double sided tape  (vhb very high bonding) you'd rip the door or cooper before you'd stop the tape from bonding

  11. CHUCKYD | Mar 30, 2005 04:11am | #32

    There are some great ideas here, and I would like to throw in mine. I would consider multiple pieces of sheet copper with concealed fasteners and slip joints, with concealed sealant around the perimeter. Get a SMACNA handbook for sheet metal and pick out however many seam styles you will need and go to town. If multiple panels are used, you could apply different treatments to each panel for varied effect. I think I saw in an older copy of FHB a list of chemicals with which to treat copper, and the different effects of the various chemicals.

    For the door trim, you could find a simple wood molding and coat it with the copper sheet, beating it to conform to the shape of the molding.

    Clear sealers need to be carefully chosen, or you may just be creating another maintenance headache.

    Would like to see a photo of the finished product.

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