Hi All,
I have a sub lined up to install seamless 5″ ogee copper gutters and am hoping to get some feedback on the pricing.
I am in Northern California (santa cruz) so labor costs will be higher than in some other areas.
For 170 lineal feet the cost installed is 2550
8 downspouts run 1320
There is one inside corner and three outside corners to be mitered. Nothing is more than 12 feet off the ground, the job is centrally located, and all the facia is solid.
I know material costs are skyrocketing and I don’t aspire to nickel and dime anyone. I just have no idea what is reasonable.
Can any of you tell me what your take is on this pricing?
thanks, karl
Edited 8/3/2004 4:39 pm ET by karl
Replies
Soldered?
Seamless means just that, Seamless. So whats to solder. Any joints are at the corners, and they are slip jointed. No solder necessary.
If you're paying for copper, you should expect the job to last 50 years. Slip joints aren't going to last 50 years. And, besides, they look crappy.
A well-done rolled corner seam (vs soldered) is probably OK, but slip-joint corners are not.
If he's going to warranty the work for as long as you're in the house, it's a steal.
DanH - he said seamless.
last I had done was ten years ago and was not seamless or ogee, but half rounds, and it ran a bit over ten bucks a foot. This doesn't sound like a terrible price at all for current conditions.
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Seamless ain't necessarily soldered. They can still do slip joints on the ends and corners, or do crimped corners without solder. Be sure you know what you're getting.
I'd be hoping for continuous runs off a gutter machine using roll stock.
Yeah, but that tells you nothing about the ends and corners. They can still end up being finished like DIY aluminum.
Sorry, hadn't thought about ends
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just talked to a friend here who does nothing but copper. His response is that the quote is on the high side but still reasonable. Copper stock has gone up a lot recently. I know from a recent quote I got that about $7 per LF will cover tacky seamless painted aluminum.
Consider wages and insurance in California and it no longer sounds on the high side.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A rough guide is copper is three times aluminum, so the estimate sounds right.
Again as the other posters already pointed out, it depends on the details; soldered vs rivet and gutter seal. Some fancy down spout can make a big difference in cost as well.
I'm located in Boston, MA which is a bit of a ways away but I can tell you it'd be a good price for here. I'd definitely say it is a fair number, lower than I'd expect to pay even.
-Ray
thank you all for the replies.
I will confirm the corner details. It sounds like I should hold out for soldered joints or look for another gutter company.
I am going with the copper just for the peace of mind that short of mechanical damage they are going to outlast the roof.
I am getting the impression that anything less than soldered joints are a substandard treatment for copper. If this is not the case any clarification would be appreciated.
Thanks again,
Karl
Karl,
The price sounds ok to me as long as it is top-notch work with good components. I am also in Santa Cruz (Mountains) and did all copper gutters. I had a choice between different weight material (I believe 10oz and 12oz???) I forget if these are the correct weights, but the heavier material is much nicer. I would also want to know how the gutter is being hung. On my guest house, copper was installed years ago with some standard type copper hangers. You can see the gutters sagging in areas. On my new home, the hangers are so heavy-duty you can practically hang from the gutter. What size downspouts are you using and how long are they?
In the end, the copper does look beautiful!
BTW, I am looking for someone in my area who does standing seam copper roofs (barrel vault) at a reasonable (if such a thing) price. - Northern California
Gordon
Fighter, thanks for responding. The downspouts would be 2" and 6 are single story downspouts the remaining two are just short (4') runs dumping water onto another roof plane below.
Who did your gutters? Would you recommend them?
What part of the SC mtns are you in? San Lorenzo valley, Summit, Skyline???
I appreciate the recommendation on 12 oz copper.
karl
Generally it's a good idea to avoid having a gutter just dump onto the roof below. This can set you up for leaks.
If the situation can't be avoided, and you haven't roofed yet, put a strip if ice guard running vertically in the area where the upper gutter will dump and downward.
Karl,
Sorry, I think it's 16 0z and 20 0z, not 10 and 12.
I was getting bids, mainly from the other side of the hill and they were ridiculously high (more like 12k plus) I thought about trying to do it myself and got some quotes from Slakey on the material, also very high (I don't have an account with them). I started shopping the internet and found a guy back east who would sell me the materials for about 1/2 the price of Slakey and the materials were better (20 oz rather than 16oz). I put the numbers together and it was cheaper for me to have this guy ship me out the materials, fly him out, put him up for the weekend and paying him an hourly rate. He and I did the bulk of the work in two days. I finished up the easier stuff like down spouts over the next few weeks.
It's kind of a wild way of doing things but it saved me money, I got materials that aren't typically available around here, and I learned a lot about installing copper gutters.
I have not talked with these guy's, (Dave and Larry) in a few years, and not sure what there prices are like now or who is running the business, but still think they cater to the do-it-your-selfer and will ship out materials. The reason I had the guy fly out and not do it all myself was because I wanted custom cut & mitered ends on the end of my runs which I had no idea how to do. I did not want the standard flat end caps. Now they sell these mitered types of ends already manufactured which you just solder on, plus many other things. You can see their website here: http://www.slateandcopper.com/
I'm up on the Summit. You may have seen some of my other posts because I am in a legal battle with Kolbe & Kolbe over their defective leaking windows and doors. You can see my new home at this site: http://www.leakywindows.com
Gordon
Gordon, that is quite a house you built yourself. Judging by the view I am guessing it is somewhere up on Mt Bache. If not there somewhere between summit and zayante.
Thanks for the link on your copper gutter source. I found another local guy who is going to come by tomorrow and give me a quote.
He says he uses something called 3/4 hard copper (or something like that). He says he hadn't found the need to use the heavier 20 oz copper.
I asked him about different hangers and he said he only found one type effective unless you are using half round and with those he said there was a plethora.
I like this guy as he says virtually all his work lately is copper and the first outfit I got a quote from doesn't even stock copper. They would go buy it for my job after I signed the contract
Thanks again.
Karl
Karl,
I'm Just off Summit Rd.
Ask your guy if he knows anyone that does copper roofs!
Good luck!
Gordon
Looking thru my references I came across another vendor:
http://www.nemecwholesale.com/coppergutter.htm
Haven't used them myself, but at least it's another place to look.
-- J.S.
Hey John, thanks for the link. I haven't run across those guys before. Their K-style stuff is right out of Berger Bros. catalog, but they've got some other cool stuff. How's your project coming along? Got any Pics?
It's going slower than I would like, though I finally got the first piece of copper installed over the weekend. All this cutting, fitting, bending, and soldering takes time, especially since every step includes figuring out for the first time how to do it. I haven't been taking as many pictures as I'd like to.
The piece I put up is the North gutter assembly, which includes an apron and eaves fascia, plus the pieces that fit around the corner to the North rake, and the bottom of the valley and to the dormer rake. There are locking strips on it that engage the rake covers, and I made up the rake pieces and checked them for fit with the assembly first. I taped a lining of red rosin paper inside the copper, and crimped the cleats to the top edge of the apron, and even drew the layout lines for where the roof pans will land on the apron. The idea is to do as much as possible as bench work to minimize the amount I have to do while hanging in a harness in the hot sun.
Anyhow, I did manage to get the thing up there and nailed off. I lowered it down past its final position by a couple inches to let the underside of the fascia piece clear the bottom of the rough fascia, then pulled it back up into place. I used two 5/8" manilla lines with C-clamps on the gutter, and tied adjustable hitches to let me position the thing by myself. My wife was doing O.T. at work that Saturday. But for the South gutter, I see now that it'll be a lot easier if I have her on a ladder pulling the bottom of the fascia inward and calling out the distances while I work the ropes from the roof.
I was also able to mark the bottom piece of the valley "W" in place and cut and bend it, and close off the end. Rather than do a double bend in 32 oz. to make a locking edge in the valley for the roof pans, I decided to go with soldering a locking strip onto it. Given how much fun long pieces of 32 oz. are on the Tapco brake, I thought that would be the easier way to go. But I'm finding out that soldering is easy on things that have lots of bends in them to begin with, and not so easy on flat ones. Expansion makes them oilcan and bulge out of shape.
I've actually done better soldering with the propane torch rather than the furnace and coppers, but perhaps that's because I'm more accustomed to doing plumbing. The coppers seem to work better when I'm trying to put the solder on thick, like to fill up the inside corner of an end cap. The torch works well for running a long continuous solder joint, especially if I can set it up at a slant, and just sort of use the flame to push the solder down hill. Soldering the piece of 1/2" K pipe into the outer lip of the gutter went quite easily that way, and it really makes a sturdy edge. It's pretty much ladder proof.
Before I can finish off the rakes and valleys and field, I first have to take the temporary winter cover off of the ridge, and finish framing it for the final ridge vent design. I also want to make a way of hooking a "chicken ladder" onto the ridge. My guess is that I'll feel more comfortable on the roof that way rather than always having tension on the harness. At least it'll reduce the amount of contact I have with the asphalt surface of that SBS sheet, which pretty much melts by about 9:30 to 10 AM.
Thanks again for your expert advice on all this copper work.
-- J.S.
The other gutter assembly is almost ready to go, but it's going to be a busy weekend, so it may have to wait another week. If so, I'll be able to take the time to photograph it first.
-- J.S.
karl
Doing all my own copper gutters here. MAybe 1 1/2 times the amt youre having done.
I'm using 12 oz copper and soldering all seams, end caps and funnels.
No biggie really.
I need to find funnels though that are the shape of my half round gutters.
My supplier claims they dont make em.I find that hard to believe.
Pain in the arse pounding the tops of the funnels to fit the gutters.
Other than that its not much more of a big deal then aluminum.
I'm paying about $4.50 a LF which seems like a great price.
Looks awesome.
Be well hung
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy, thank for the input. I have hung simple runs of gutter in the past with good results. One section of roof that is being guttered is a continuous run with two outside corners and one inside corner. I see the potential to make a lot of errors and burn a lot of time trying to figure out how to cut and solder this all together fitting good and snug.
I am envious of your cost at 4.50/ft.
Karl
Andy,
If you look at the site I gave Karl, they have all kinds of end caps in the shape of the gutters. Worth checking out!
http://www.slateandcopper.com/
Good luck!
Gordon
Fighter
/yeh, I checked them out first a few months ago and coincidently a rep/installer stopped by here to see if I wanted to do a 40 sq cedar roof in the Hamptons for him....lol...yeh sure, like I wanna keep doing that 60 sq later here.
Anyway, slate and copper are a great company. I just dont think I need to spend those kinda bucks on this house though....they gave me a ballpark ...and I think I could almost buy a car for that amt of money....not to say it isnt worth it to some, but the ones I'm installing are actually a bit better than what was here which wasnt bad to begin with.
I mean how bad can copper gutters be...lol?
Be well
a
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
> I'm using 12 oz copper
Are you sure it's 12, not 32 oz? I'm using 32 for gutters and valleys, and 16 oz. for the field of the roof and rake fascias.
16 oz. is thin enough that it's difficult to handle until it has a few bends in it to stiffen it. I found out the hard way that I have to spring clamp it to a 10 ft piece of 1x3 so I can pick it up without it bending and crimping itself near my hands.
32 oz. is stiffer, handling it is about like handling Formica in terms of floppiness -- but a lot heavier. I can just pick a sheet up and lay it on a material handling table. The downside of 32 oz. is that it's difficult to make long bends, especially on my portable Tapco brake.
CDA mentions a tempered 12 oz for roofing called "tough 12", but I've never seen it in person.
As for funnels for half round, could you cut down a plumbing tee to make a funnel? I'm using 3" DWV copper pipe for downspouts.
-- J.S.
John
Yep...my mistake...20something oz is all my coil stock.
32 on gutters.The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The quoted price is about what I charge in KY. I use 25' lengths of 16 oz. cu and pre-tin and solder the joints. I also use bronze screw type hidden hangers. The price someone quoted of $4.50/ft is gutter material only. Bronze hidden hangers run about $4/ea. I normally space them on 32" ctrs. I miter my end caps (unless they're butting into a wall). The "3/4 hard" copper is still pretty soft and will ding easily when you're up on the ladder banging the spikes and ferrules back in if that's what your guy is using. You didn't specify your run lengths, but if they're much over 25', continuous copper gutter will expand and contract and work the spikes and ferrules loose. I've also seen aluminum hidden hangers used on copper gutter. Don't really know the repercusions, but there's gonna be some reaction between the two. Soft copper run thru gutter machines is also kind of ripply. Doesn't look as good as hard copper gutter. Get more specifics before dumping that kind of money into copper gutters. If it's gonna be spiked and sealed with gutter sealant, just get brown aluminum and you use the money you saved to replace your fascia where the miters and end caps started leaking after the first year.
greencu, thank you for the very informative post.
Unfortunately I have a 32' run and a 35' run so I will be dealing with the expansion issue.
I get the impression your first choice is not gutters rolled onsite from coil stock. Am I better off finding someone who works with preformed hard copper 25 footers and solders two sections together on the longer runs?
Thanks again,
karl
Edited 8/7/2004 2:04 am ET by karl
Am I better off finding someone who works with preformed hard copper 25 footers and solders two sections together on the longer runs?
I think so. It would seem that k-style gutter is k-style gutter no matter what the material, but that's not really the case. 95% of my gutter jobs are copper. The other 5% are aluminum. I have to admit that my aluminum work sometimes does not look as good as some other aluminum installer's. My copper work looks and works as well or better than my competition. I don't do alum every day, so I don't know or haven't learned some of the little tricks and pitfalls of the material. Look at some of your gutter guys previous work. He might have a better forming machine than what I've seen. The hard copper gutters I buy are made on a forming machine, but it's not a portable one. Insist on having end caps, outlets and miters soldered. Occasionally, I have an expansion joint situation where I can't cosmetically use a conventional joint. In these cases, I use gutter sealant and hope for the best. Good luck.