I’m building a redwood gate and want to rout in a copper inlay. I’m looking for a way to keep the copper shiny. I’m not opposed to the green patina it develops over time, just prefer the lustre of unpatina’d copper.
Is there a laquer available that can hold to water and UV? I’ve thought of liquid epoxy, but I think it’s too brittle – it’ll just flake off.
Thanks.
Replies
I've got automotive clear coat on a pair of exterior doors. Working very well so far. Much better than any lacquer I've tried.
Or you can force the green. I bought some commercial prep that I didn't at all like the effect on my copper sided house. Inlay would be very different.
You haven't filled in your profile, but central Va is where my stuff is. You're welcome to it. For that matter I just finished a copper roof on an outbuilding and have more scrap than your gate needs.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks VaTom
Is the auto clear coat available at any parts store? I'd give that a shot. Thanks for the Cu offer, but I'm in CA. Also found some from a local roofer. A good heavy gauge, much heavier than rolled flashing.
Yup. Clear coat's what goes over the base (color) coat. You really didn't want flashing. Roofers use copper that's 1 lb/sq ft. The copper needs to be clean for adhesion so ask the auto body supplier for what your precleaner needs. Must be compatible with the clear coat. Sometimes they're not.
If you want green, that's another matter. We didn't like the effect of forcing on a wall. On smaller inlays, I think it would have been fine.
Here's a pic of a door here. This is what happens to copper when it sits in our rain. We like it and wanted to preserve, hence the clear coat. Second pic is an experiment of forcing the green a couple yrs ago. Fortunately it's in an inconspicuous location. Quite blotchy.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Could you tell me how you applied the copper to the wall and door? Is it just nailed or is there a way to glue it? Aren't the edges sharp if left uncovered?
To the door, glued on. Wall has 2 types of fasteners, SS screws in nylon tee washers (the dots in the pic) and copper pop rivets (almost invisible), used depending on the underlying metal. This is not a bug food house. On my lumber shed I also copper nailed strips to the facias and some wall SIPS that I used.
Cut edges are a little sharp, factory not so. The door has the copper folded around the edges with a factory edge on the latch side. On the house, with a few exposed cut edges, hasn't been an issue. Helps to be careful in placement.
I've seen copper lap siding, incredibly expensive out of the box. Also standing seam applied to walls, which struck me as looking like a railroad boxcar, but clearly more waterproof than what I did. Waterproof wasn't an issue here, nothing to rot under the copper. Silicone caulk is inside my seams anyway. Works very well, if unnecessary. Noise was a bigger concern. No problem now.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom-
If there's nothing to rot under the copper, what is it fastened to? Something's got to be holding the place up. Steel studs or an alternative system? I recall a house clad in Copper that was in FH a few years ago. Was that yours, or an inspiration?
Don
With hijack apologies....
Don, these are concrete houses with 2' of dirt on the roof... 30' and 40' clear spans... There's a lot "holding the place up". LOL Just nothing to rot.
Outside the concrete are steel studs here, the reason for the stainless screws. Client house I built had copper Z strips fastened to the concrete that we used copper pop rivets on, much nicer. That house we also copper clad the windows. These are Passive Annual Heat Storage (PAHS) houses, the heating/cooling system. If you're interested here's a book excerpt: http://www.axwoodfarm.com/PAHS/UmbrellaHouse.html
I don't remember the copper clad house issue, but my use was an accident apparently preceeding it. Plan was stucco, the reason for the steel studs. Then my stucco guy left the area. Shocked me when I learned what everybody else charged for stucco. Unaffordable and wasn't anything I wanted to learn. GC friend knew I'd been playing with a copper roof and suggested it would be a good siding for the house. From there, I figured it out as I went. Used 3'x10' sheets, normally used in valleys. The other copper houses I've since seen I didn't like as well. Nor did my client, so we repeated this method which is also much simpler. His previous house was stuccoed (dryvit), nicest job I've ever seen. Unfortunately it had severe adhesion problems. No way was he buying stucco again.
Think I saw another thread that you were headed this way. Where?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I apologize for the hijack as well.
Tom, Thanks for the info on the home. I am a little familiar with earth sheltering, mostly from the old magazine Mother Earth News, not with the concept of insulating it and keeping the ground dry to assist in the temperature preservation. I skimmed it a little and will go through it again later when I have more time. It sounds promising, and I don't understand why more people aren't using this technology. The picture of the inside is also nice. I personally prefer more sunshine like in the newer version, with the patio by the front door and the cupola/sunroof.
My other home is on the southern border roughly in the middle of the state, near the John Kerr Lake/Reservoir, in a little town called Buffalo Junction. It's off highway 58, about 30 minutes east of South Boston. I've been trying to get out of New York since I bought it six years ago, but it seems like somebody nailed one foot to the floor up here. We'll be down there for Lakefest (in Clarksville) in July, and if you're not doing anything, it's a nice way to spend a day or so. There's a fireworks show on Saturday night (7/16) which is top notch.
I look forward to crossing paths and talking again, either in person or otherwise. Feel free to drop me a personal e-mail anytime.
Don
VaTom - I just came across an old note that you and I exchanged about where you were located. I never responded b/c it didn't show up on my screen as a message. Just wanted to let you know I wasn't being rude.
I'm curious though about this post - you have a copper wall on a house? 'splain me that would you? I noticed that you said you had a copper roof on an outbuilding too. I like it too, but it gets a tad expensive for my blood.
Don
Thank you. I don't remember the thread. Sometimes there are responses, sometimes not. Taking offense at a non-response would be a mistake.
Our house is all copper on the unburied walls (80%). My previous post pics show parts of opposite sides of the house. I view copper differently from you. Strikes me as incredibly inexpensive, given the life span.
Copper, when I sided the house, cost $1.40/ft, went up fast, no finish, no maintenance. Is there cheaper siding? What I just put on my shed roof cost $2.40/ft. I don't like roofing and only want to do it once. You have something better? Clearly, asphalt shingles aren't.
Here's the shed, partially roofed. The open section in the first pic is now translucent panels that I happened into from an insurance replacement. Much cheaper, where I got them, than the copper. Otherwise, several times the cost of copper/ft. If you find them interesting, there's a translucent panel thread here from when I first got them and didn't know just what I had. Mike Smith was very helpful (unlike the manufacturer), having experience.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, I can remember you had posted about those panels, but you need to create a new thread about your shed. Looks like an interesting construction with the panels and copper combination.
jt8
It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. --Chinese proverb
I added to it. 50367.44 Another inch of rain. Still no leaks.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Staybrite.
Woodcraft sells it........ for one.
Others too, I'm sure.
Do at least two, if not three coats.
Thanks Goldhiller and all.
Staybrite looks promising. Do you have any long term experience with it?
Yes. I've used Staybrite for about 15 years on various interior and exterior articles. Inside for brass and copper lighting fixtures, brass door pulls, window crank mechs, etc. Outside for door handles, brass mailboxes and even a copper roof on a bay window.It's performed admirably and you'll hear no complaints from me in that regard. Shot that copper roof with it about 6 years ago and it's holding up just fine. Very little shift in color, if any………. and no peeling or cracking.Again, I'd recommend 3 coats on exterior stuff, for sure……… and the same for door & window pulls/knobs because of the wear factor. Make certain the surface is clean and free of all oily solvents and the like and shoot away. Don't be alarmed if you see a little milky-ness to the finish while it's yet wet; it'll dry clear. Of course, this finish won't totally stop ALL color shift forever and ever…amen……because no finish can totally prevent the passage of all oxygen and UV to the underlying surface. But Staybrite is by far the best I've found yet for a DIYer clear direct-to-metal finish ………and like I said, no complaints on my end. Admittedly, I haven't tried the automotive clear coats for this, so I can't do a comparison.Here's a current pic (taken 5 minutes ago) of an old light fixture that was cleaned up and shot with Staybrite in '90. Just two coats on these IIRC.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 5/17/2005 10:42 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 5/17/2005 10:51 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Staybrite won't hold up to much contact, if that is likely. And it will break down over time, hence you will need to recoat. If the gate is not under an overhang (and I suspect it isn't) I suggest going the auto clear coat route. That will be MUCH more durable. Staybrite is basically just spray on lacquer. Doesn't have much in the way of UV protection.
Staybrite won't hold up to much contact, if that is likely.
That was also my experience, on interior door knobs. The high use ones ended up being replace by the new Baldwin hardware that won't tarnish. Never tried the clear coat there.
Reason I used it here was I had it around from spraying DW's van. It's much more durable than I found Staybrite, or any of a long list of similar finishes, to be. For a 2 yr period I tried everything I could find to stand up to abrasion. Everything but clear coat, which hadn't occurred to me to try.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Clearcoat will also wear on the doorknobs.Just nowhere near as fast.Give it 3 or 4 coats, then give it plenty of time to cure, and Bob's yer uncle for at least a couple years.I love that stuff anywhere I need to protect metal.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
Dammit ...Tom, we just finshed a 5 hipped bay window today with standing seam..about 8' pans. A real PITA.
I took a slew of pics, it was like a 20/12 pitch.
Got home and went to open the pics...DUH, my mem card was in the 'puter NOT the camera..
Any way, Dale was taking some with his and printed out a pic or two on site..mebbe tomorrow i can grab a print and scan it.
I HATE when that happens. They were cool pics of the install too, us using vise gips for toe boards, trimming the lock seams.
Ya hadda be there.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Yup, I really bought this place, wanna shoot me? Please?
They were cool pics of the install too, us using vise gips for toe boards, trimming the lock seams.
Ya hadda be there.
Maybe not. Certainly, preferably not. To finish my last (translucent panel) roof I spent considerable time torso on one side, legs on the other, leaning over as far as I could to drill and pop rivet. Nowhere close to 20/12, but it was minimally 30' up.
You try not to think about that swan dive. Don't know about you, but I don't look down. Good friend, who didn't offer to help, asked about fall protection. Well, I did tie the extension ladder to the roof before I climbed off on the ridge cap. Not one of those times you invite DW to watch. No pics.
You saw that chicken ladder hanging way off the eaves? Guy I borrowed the seamers from went out there to trim the ends. Not Tom. I'll do any contortion to keep my azz over something more substantial than air.
My memory card never leaves the camera, which plugs into the computer. Kinda hard to screw up unless you forget to recharge the battery.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I hear ya ...we we laying on this one with our feet on vise grips clamped to the seams.
Ya can't hardly see it , but there is cap at the very top.
I'd like the kill the archy that drew this thing..try to nail a cleat under that overhang..
The soffit guys are gonna freak out.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Yup, I really bought this place, wanna shoot me? Please?
Looks good - I think I bid that one a little low............................Oh, well.Hey Mister Sushi, you forgot to cook my fish.
"Am I dead or alive? What's this? Linoleum? I must be in hell." -The Salton Sea
Ya probly didn't count on two of us. I did the chimney flashing while Dale started...when I heard all the cussin, I jumped down to help.
We shoulda took a pic when we measured it up, you woulda seen the gable above then.
My dentist rescheduled me today..good thing it was raining by 13:00.
Invoice coming at you tonite..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Yup, I really bought this place, wanna shoot me? Please?
Greencu is right. What a mess. You using commercial drip edges? How far off the ground?
My first copper roof had tapered pans. Friend with the seamers working with me thought I was nuts. Actually worked out very well. But not under an overhang, or that steep. And the lower edge was only 8' up.
The nice thing about design/build is that you get to change the design if you decide it was wrong during the build. I totally changed my roof line after I got up there and looked down. Original ridge was to be 8' higher, and steeper. Yeah, right. I still get queasy thinking about it. Looked great on paper. Then I got up there...PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It was only about 10' or so. G man makes all our drip edge in his shop.
G does us good, doing all the shop work and "customer relations"..but that dagnabbed gable was tite. Soldering unde it got hot real fast.
I do love my new profession most times..thats why I got a new pair of crimpers and another ladder. LOL.
Just seems working so much is slowing down the house process..but no work=no pay=no progress on the shack..viscious cycle.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Yup, I really bought this place, wanna shoot me? Please?
Life's tough when you've gotta work for a living. At least that's what the trust-funders tell me. Seems to be an abundance of them around here.
What's that drip edge look like? Or is it a trade secret? At the insistance of the roofer I borrowed the seamers from, I used some nice commercial stuff on my shed, but it was $3/lin ft. When I used up the $300 box I went back to using 4" flat strips. Fortunately no transition problems.
Had house guests recently who were amazed, but the major question was: how do I decide what to do when I get up in the morning. As in, with all these projects... I explained the process of "putting out fires". One after another.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Well, Green uses a hem of about a 1/4" on the gutter end and a kick of maybe 15 degrees..then depending on the sheathing) a flat at 1''..then a 3/4" hard crimp ( double thick) and a nail flange at what ever is "tailing" ...he uses a lot of left overs for DE, unless it is called out to be wider.
We use two different profiles dending on the rake..I am not the guy to ask, I just cut and nail it up...LOL
He really makes us look good...the fold for a pan is about a half inch to 5/8 th..trim it and crimp.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Yup, I really bought this place, wanna shoot me? Please?
To address the original post, if the inlay is treated and the treatment begins to fail (if it is in full sun then UV may tear at most coatings. Coatings on hardware are often protected by a overhang from sun and beating rain) sprinkle sea salt on a half of a lemon and rub the copper. This will remove the verdigris but is tedious on large areas. I had a client hire me to rub out his gutters and spouts on the facade. Took all day and a case of lemons but it looked nice. Glad he didn't have copper capping or siding. Flashing grade copper won't shine up as nice as ornamental (the impurities mottle the finish a bit). If the inlay is a focal point and small enough a rub out every year or so may be worth it.
Pretty sure I wouldn't want the work, but I envy you the experience. If that makes any sense.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I love that stuff anywhere I need to protect metal.
Makes sense to me. You familiar with the Baldwin process, not a coating, that prevents tarnish? Alchemy. I had a (same) client shower stall problem that I called them about. Seems the machine they use only accepts up to 3' lengths. Fine for doorknobs, not so good for shower parts. That was brass, didn't ask about copper.
We never got down to cost. It's fun when you get the occasional client who doesn't care, just wants it done correctly.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
What is their process ?
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
It's late here and the cognac's kicked in.
Something about electrically changing the molecular structure. Whatever, guaranteed to stay shiny forever come what may.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I think there are two processes for the "never tarnish" stuff. As I recall, one is called DVP, and I think it is the more common. It really boils down to "this isn't really brass". It has to do with the whole process, not just a protection layer. So you cannot necessarily get a different finish.It's probably reviewed in plumbing fixtures somewhere - that is the most common usage. Door hardware came latter, I think.
"Staybrite won't hold up to much contact, if that is likely. And it will break down over time, hence you will need to recoat. "Interesting. Our front door pulls were shot with Staybrite some 8 years ago and are holding up fine. No wear thru or the like. Can't help but wonder if the makeup of one's secretions play a role here. I know that some folks have a more acidic secretion than others evidenced for example, by how long their guitar strings hold up. Some guys' strings corrode rapidly if they don't wipe them down regularly (me) and others last without corrosion seemingly forever....without extra care.Nonetheless, the better finish should last longer in any given situation. Maybe I'll give the clear coat a whirl...just for comparison.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I am of the extremely acidic type.And yes, things that I handle do tend to break down faster than with other people.Clear coat lasts longer than anything else that I have tried. Even when it is I who is handling the object. But even clear coat will not stand up to my skin very long. That's why I gave it two years on a doorknob, with three or four coats.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.