Replies

1. 
   csnow | Apr 13, 2005 08:54pm | #1

   I'd say that new plumbing work done well should not be prone to freezing.

   PEX is a proven product.  Under harsh water conditions, it will outlive copper.

   One weakness is that PEX will break down over time if exposed to sunlight.  Otherwise it is tough stuff.  On the labor side, PEX requires some extra work to support horizontal runs, and generally requires more fastening.  This is offset by far less time joining pipes.

   Unless you have harsh water, either material will perform well.

1. 
   Amasa | Apr 13, 2005 09:13pm | #2

   I've a similar situation, can you define "harsh"? 

1. 
   csnow | Apr 13, 2005 09:45pm | #3

   Harsh to copper is acid.  In some regions, copper is not viable because the municipal water supply is too acidic.  Well water can also be very acidic.  Here in the northeast, acidic well water is fairly common.  A high mineral content will also errode copper more quickly from abrasion.

1. 
   BarryO | Apr 13, 2005 10:13pm | #4

   Yea, some of the wells around here have a bit of sulfur in them.  It makes the water acidic, which can eat at the Cu over time.

2. 
   halfday | Apr 13, 2005 10:35pm | #7

   About copper pipes and well water....we are on a commuty well that is treated/tested per NC State regs and we do test a bit high on the copper levels.  Another vote for PEX. Thanks again. halfday in NC

2. 
   halfday | Apr 13, 2005 10:32pm | #6

   Thanks so much for your good advice about PEX....looks like that's what we'll choose.

   halfday, NC

2. 
   MGMaxwell | Apr 13, 2005 10:16pm | #5

   I have a place near Todd, NC. I have PEX. When my plumber installed it, it was his first experience with it, and now he won't use anything else.

3. 
   Piffin | Apr 14, 2005 12:21am | #8

   Do the Pex. You have a plumber who knows his materials.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Darin | Apr 14, 2005 01:20am | #9

   What about using PEX for HWBB heating system instead of 3/4 copper.  In a HWBB heating system the copper will not be as susceptible to corrosion even though the make-up water is from a well with acidic water. 

   I am considering using PEX since I have not sheetrocked the first floor ceilings yet, I am thinking I would have a much easier time traversing the floor joist system with PEX rather than all those 32" sections of 3/4 copper. 

   I could also try soft copper, but I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Viega PEX that was on display at JLC live.  They had a version that had aluminum sandwiched between two layers of PEX.  Their claim was that it does not expand and contract the way normal PEX would when used for a heating system.  It looked like nice stuff and the cost didn't seem unreasonable considering the time saved cleaning, fluxing, and sweating all the copper fittings.

   Any thoughts or experience from the professors here at BT?

1. 
   csnow | Apr 14, 2005 03:30am | #11

   "What about using PEX for HWBB heating system instead of 3/4 copper.  In a HWBB heating system the copper will not be as susceptible to corrosion even though the make-up water is from a well with acidic water."

   Acid is not as big an issue in a closed hydronic system.  The system goes anerobic pretty quickly.  In the oxygen starved environment, little corrosion happens.  PEX is generally not used for high temp baseboard applications, but I think this will change.  Though it is rated for those 180+ degree temps, PEX expands and sags a lot.  If you get the PEX Al PEX, it is much more self-supporting.  You can get special baseboard that is designed for PEX to snap into it, though the output is not as great as with copper fin tube.

   See:

   http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,136962,00.html

    

2. 
   halfday | Apr 14, 2005 05:15am | #13

   Thanks...I think we've made our choice...the builders here in western NC rip out copper and put in PEX. 

   Halfday/NC

1. 
   Heck | Apr 14, 2005 06:45am | #14

   You all using PEX, I have a question.How do you deal with stub-outs for supplies?Do you stub-out the PEX and is that OK?I have my plumber transition to a copper stub-out that is more ridgid and (to me) securely fastened. Also, I feel it makes a cleaner looking installation when installing the valve, and it feels sturdier.Also, a smaller hole can be cut in the drywall when hanging, that usually doesn't require an escutcheon.(sp?)

   Does anyone see any problems with this approach?

   Heck If I know....

   Edited 4/13/2005 11:48 pm ET by HECK

1. 
   Mongo | Apr 14, 2005 06:57am | #15

   Exactly what you wrote. Transition to rigid tubing for the stubouts.

   Keep the PEX hidden from sunlight. Especially PEX imported from Transylvania.

1. 
   Heck | Apr 14, 2005 07:02am | #16

   Spooky!

   Thanks.Heck If I know....

2. 
   nikkiwood | Apr 14, 2005 04:42pm | #18

   But -- is all PEX created equal?Around here (MN), Wirsbo has been the standard for some time. But now, even Menards is beginning to sell Pex (a different brand).Can the fittings from one brand be used with the tubing from another?"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
   -- Bertrand Russell

3. 
   DDay | Apr 14, 2005 04:48pm | #19

   Probably not.  Most of the pex companies have their own systems and they are not univeral.

4. FHB Editor
   JFink | Apr 14, 2005 10:51pm | #25

   CSnow,

   What is the price difference?

    Justin Fink - FHB Editorial

5. 
   csnow | Apr 14, 2005 07:06pm | #21

   "Can the fittings from one brand be used with the tubing from another?"

   From what I have heard, in many cases they can.  The problem is that the manufacturers are not going to tell you this unless or until they decide that a common standard is to their collective benefit as an industry.

   Right now they figure they have more to gain marketing their proprietary packages.  Proprietary manifolds in particular are expensive and are probably very high margin items.  When you go shopping PEX, you cannot just look at the cost of the tubing, you need to consider the net cost including manifolds and fittings, particularly for heating applications.

   A common standard would certainly 'raise all ships' to some extent by making PEX more competive with alternate materials.

   I'm sure mixing fittings would void any warranty.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 14, 2005 04:35pm | #17

   I don't know the price, but some one (I think that it is Oakely sp?) has roughin boxes for plumbing.Think rough in electrical.They are a recessed box with a stop valve built in. They have versions for copper, pvc, and pex. So the transistion and stop valve are all installed in a box at rooughin.After the DW is on there is a trimp plate (coverplate) that goes on.

1. 
   Heck | Apr 14, 2005 07:04pm | #20

   Yeah, Bill, we use those in various places, such as the supply line for the icemaker sometimes.About $10.00 to $15.00 ea, depending on what style. The ones I have seen have a trim ring, I haven't seen one with a cover plate.

   Too costly to use on all supplies, I think.

    Heck If I know....

2. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 14, 2005 09:59pm | #24

   By "coverplate" I used that term to relate it to an electrical box. In fact is is just a trim plate.And while this do look neat for applications like refigerator ice makers I don' think that I would use one for that. Or at least back it up with a shutoff under the sink or in the basement.If something happens it would be nice for some one to be able to shut off the water without having to move the refigerator.Never though about this until I got a new refigerator last year. It has the common poly tubbing tapped off the cold water under the sink. This was done 25 years ago when the house was built. For other reasons that area under the sink has been reworked acouple of times and the orginal saddle valve replaced, but the same tubing in use.When the brought the new refigerator they said that they could not hook it up unless it was copper tubing. Apparently this is now universal with applicance stores because of the fear of liability.

4. 
   maverick | Apr 14, 2005 01:59am | #10

   Pex is better, We use it on jobs almost exclusively now.

   I dont want it in my house though. I'm always tying in somewhere for a new silcok, bar sink, or whatever I feel like. Copper lends itself better to renovation work for a non-plumber.

1. 
   TJK1141 | Apr 14, 2005 07:12pm | #22

   Are you saying, PEX is "better" for plumbers, meaning it's unrepairable by DIY folks?I agree that certain areas with extremely acidic water might justify PEX, but 90% of homes don't have that situation. PEX is inferior to Cu when it comes to physical damage (houses never settle, do they?), and extreme high or low temperatures. PEX is plastic, and all plastics lose flexibility when cold, and they lose a lot of strength above 150F. Cu is good from cryogenic temps to 400F.Another apparent limitation of PEX is the interface joint that's needed at places where it's attached to standard fixtures. Every one of those clamped metal to PEX connections is a leak waiting to happen. This might be wonderful for plumbers, but how does that help a homeowner 20 years down the road? Where is the track record that shows this product will work reliably at the fixture interfaces?A while back there were people who enthusiastically endorsed polybutylene and cpvc. They were going to revolutionize plumbing and lower the cost of installs. That really turned out well didn't it?

   Edited 4/14/2005 12:27 pm ET by TJK

1. 
   csnow | Apr 15, 2005 12:20am | #26

   "Are you saying, PEX is "better" for plumbers, meaning it's unrepairable by DIY folks?"

   I do not think this is true.  In fact, you hear the same old grumblings that you heard with PVC drainpipe about 'putting plumbers out of work' and such.  PEX is very repairable, and many of the fitting types no longer require any special (expensive) tools.  Folks who would be afraid to fire up a torch would not be intimidated by PEX.

   "I agree that certain areas with extremely acidic water might justify PEX, but 90% of homes don't have that situation. PEX is inferior to Cu when it comes to physical damage (houses never settle, do they?), and extreme high or low temperatures. PEX is plastic, and all plastics lose flexibility when cold, and they lose a lot of strength above 150F. Cu is good from cryogenic temps to 400F."

   What sort of physical damage?  Pex is very tough stuff.  Copper can be punctured too.  PEX will just flex if the house settles.  There is no normal household water temperature that pushes the boundaries of PEX.  Far below cryogenic temps, a copper pipe with water in it will burst.

   "A while back there were people who enthusiastically endorsed polybutylene and cpvc. They were going to revolutionize plumbing and lower the cost of installs. That really turned out well didn't it?"

   PEX has a long and proven track record in Europe.  Even in the US, it has been in use for a long time, particularly in the West.  PB fell victim to misapplication and overzealous litigation.  CPVC is not exactly a bad (or unsuccessful) product, though PEX in inherently tougher.  The whole PB thing is a tough perception hurdle to overcome, which is why I believe that PEX and related components are generally overengineered for what is required of them.

2. 
   maverick | Apr 15, 2005 12:45am | #27

   >>Are you saying, PEX is "better" for plumbers, meaning it's unrepairable by DIY folks?

   No, its just the way I am. I can't leave well enough alone. I've been remodeling my house since the day I started framing it. It drives my wife crazy. Too bad for her. I tell her Monet painted the "lily's" some 34 times before he was satisfied.

   By the way I'm planning a master bath addition and I'm gonna turn the current master bath into a walk in closet.

5. 
   WayneL5 | Apr 14, 2005 04:08am | #12

   Copper used to be "the best" before PEX came along.  But now, either will give you a real nice system.  If you have corrosive water, then PEX would be better.

6. 
   Dinosaur | Apr 14, 2005 07:31pm | #23

   Man this brings back memories of my first days on BT and the hollerin' back and forth between the PEX proponents and the Copper Heads.

   Anybody hear anything from Wet Head Warrior? Been gone for a while now....

   My problem with PEX is the same as my problem with any new building material. (By 'new', I mean having been in general use for less than 15-20 years.) If it hasn't been around long enough, we simply don't know what kind of longevity to expect from it, or what problems it will create a few years down the road. There are hundreds of thousands of possibly adverse chemical interactions that can occur among different building materials used in contact with each other or just the atmosphere or sunlight. With the highly engineered stuff we are being told to put in our houses these days, a carp or plumber or electrician simply cannot be expected to know all of the possibities. Frequently, even the manufacturer does not know. It's not rocket-science...it's more like drug prescribing. (Didja know that if you take Viagara and nitro within 24 hours of each other you'll be dead before ya hit the floor? Neither did the first person who tried it....)

   I believe that any house should have a useful service life of a hundred years, at minimum. After that, if there are architectural values in it worth preserving, such major renovation (not remodeling!) as time has made necessary can be performed, and the house can start in on its second century. This sort of approach gives us sustainable housing stock without unduly depleting natural resources and unnecessarily enriching entrepreneurs who specialize in short-term profit and feel-good product.

   Pex may in fact turn out to be more durable in a general sense than rigid copper. But it has a quite a few years more to go before we will know that--as opposed to assuming it from the computer modeling done by the chemical engineers who invented the stuff.

   In the meantime, let me ask you this: Do you remember Poly-B...?

    

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

    

7. 
   Virginbuild | Apr 15, 2005 03:43am | #28

   I am building a house and have been pondering the pros and cons of Pex and copper materials for water supply.

   What I know is that PEX has been used for many years in Europe before it found it's way onto American shores.

   I know that Copper piping has some interesting attributes that make me want to stay away from it. Copper will corrode if the water is acidic. Copper will clog up from other causes with water chemistry or composition. Ask any plumber and they must confess that some pipe leaks on copper lines inside walls and hard to get at places are at soldered connections that take years sooner or later to fail. Last but probably the most important in my research is that copper leaches toxic compounds into your water from reaction to certain water conditions and also for some time after a new installation. That toxicity is not necessarily from old lead solder but from the copper itself.

   I find that with home run PEX you normally only have two connections for each water outlet, one at a manifold and the other at the termination, both relatively easy to get at and also to detect a leak. I believe I am going to commit for the PEX installation for my house.

   My opinion of the toxicity of copper piping is that it is causing or contributing to a number of illnesses in our country. So much of it is in use and up until PEX there was no other material to replace copper except the old galvanized iron pipe. I think people just stick their heads in the sand and hope that nobody raises the issue until there is indisputable evidence of what it is doing to our health.

   Wow! All of us can get emotional about this just like with politics and religion. Anyway from what I know so far I have to give copper a thumbs down due to health concerns.

   Virginbuild

1. 
   donpapenburg | Apr 15, 2005 05:16am | #29

   Health concerns??? Plastisizers are far more leathal than heavy metals.

1. 
   nikkiwood | Apr 15, 2005 07:20am | #30

   I think PEX is close to indispensible in many remodeling situations. If you're trying to get new supply lines from a second or third floor to the basement, you can often do so without tearing into any of the walls on the lower floors. We use Greenlee Fish Stix to pull the tubing. In such situations, we have often used the PEX tubing for the run, and then transition to conventional copper. That will minimize the steep cost of PEX fittings. However, with the Wirsbo product, you need a special tool (to affix the fittings), which costs about $300."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
   -- Bertrand Russell

2. 
   Virginbuild | Apr 16, 2005 02:03am | #31

   Don,

   The "plasticizers" you mention are nasty in a standalone state but after the end product is finished the net result is a stable product. It is all in the chemistry of the product. Think! oxygen and nitrogen, blended together they sustain us, yet to much or not enough of either and we no longer survive.

   Many tests have been done and ongoing quality testing is part of the manufacturing process. PEX is very stable and out gassing is not an issue with the product. Did you ever stop to consider how many other plastic products you use every day with out harm? How about your food you consume? Nearly every type of food you purchase today has been in contact with plastic protection or packaging. Check out your kitchen, there just might be one or many plastic items used for cooking and food handling. Better watch it! :-) Like I mentioned we could keep this thread rolling a long time because of our many differing opinions. May we all stay healthy, until somebody nukes us or a comet decides to visit us.

   Virginbuild

2. 
   halfday | May 10, 2005 04:28pm | #32

   Thanks for the thumbs down on copoper pipes...we've come to the same conclusion and PEX is going to be our choice as well.   halfday