Hi……..Someone over on Over the Fence suggested that I might find some answers here. I’m considering a copper roof for my tiny, 80-year clapboard house, but a landscape architect casually mentioned to me recently that, unless the guttering system is PERFECT, run-off from the roof will create a garden ‘dead zone’ wherever water from the roof hits the ground. I hadn’t heard of this problem before. And the three roofers I’ve talked to so far haven’t heard of it either, and say they’ve never had a copper-roof customer lose a shrub or plant. (Of course, it’s entirely possible that a customer might not associate dying plants with a new copper roof!) My roof has a really steep pitch to it, so I don’t think it’s possible to catch every drop that hits the roof, no matter how carefully the gutters are planned.
Before I make a major and expensive decision (and potential mistake!) I’m trying to find out more about the issue. Any insights, anecdotes, first-hand info, or suggestions about how to find out more?? Googling turned up very little, and mostly a blanket, no-surprise statement by one copper manufacturer that run off from copper roofing isn’t a problem.
Thanks!
Replies
Been in the copper roof business nearly 20 years and have not encountered this problem.
a landscape architect casually mentioned to me recently that, unless the guttering system is PERFECT, run-off from the roof will create a garden 'dead zone' wherever water from the roof hits the ground.
If there is any problem, it would be a roof system without gutters and I'm guessing only certain plants would be susceptible. Other plants might thrive in a copper rich enviroment. I've made many copper planters and window boxes over the years. Stuff grows great in them.
Thanks, greencu! Interesting that the copper planters have never caused a problem either. This same landscape architect mentioned that she knew someone who had made a copper planter specially for a bit of ivy that he had taken from his grandfather's garden----the ivy died and the poor fellow was heartbroken! The landscape architect blamed the copper. I know that copper IS an ingredient in some plant-killers, like moss removers. I'll see what I can find out about copper-'friendly' plants.
I wonder, too, if the amount of 'stuff' coming off of a copper roof diminishes as the roof ages. So, even if run-off IS a problem for some plants, a couple of years of aging might lessen or neutralize the effects?
Many thanks!
The landscape architect blamed the copper.
Hmmm... is CVILLE your location, as in central Virginia? If so, is your landscape architect a former attorney?
We used copper siding on our house. It contacts the ground both in a side yard full of periwinkle, and our kitchen garden on the other side. Neither have had any problem with plant growth. Also built a planter, copper lined, for a client several years ago. Never a problem with the copper.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If copper run off was a problem ,,,,,,,,,What about the thousands of gardeners who have copper water pipes? They all have dead plants or green thumbs?
I have noticed that tile or slate roofs are lichen-free in any area affected by the run-off from a copper roof so I'm sure it has some herbicidal properties but it's moot whether it would be sufficient to affect a plant or shrub.
IanDG
Not sure about run-off from a copper roof, but if you drive a copper nail into a tree it will die within a year.
Interesting, llamb. This same point---copper nails killing a tree---came up on in a discussion on a GardenWeb forum, where I was also checking around for info on this issue. Naturally, someone immediately jumped in and said that using a copper nail to kill a tree is a myth! I do know I wouldn't be eager to sacrifice one of my nice little trees in order to find out first-hand! I'm guessing that copper CAN be a problem, at least for some plants; the trick is to know how much is TOO much. And how to work around it in terms of where and what to plant.
Putting copper nails or piece of soft copper into a tree or a bush will kill it....
Know this for sure...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Got me checking.
http://www.stretcher.com/stories/01/010813b.cfm
Contact Herbicides. A contact herbicide only kills the plant parts that it touches. This is why effective cover of the plants is imperative for successful treatment. Contact herbicides usually work within a few days. Plants that grow from seeds each year (annuals) can be readily controlled with one application of a contact herbicide. However, plants that grow from the same rootstock each year (perennials) will require a number of treatments because contact herbicides will not kill the root system. Copper sulfate has long been the contact herbicide of choice for the control of filamentous algae. Many people know it by the name “bluestone,” which comes from its color.
Copper sulfate is available in a variety of sizes, from relatively large, gravel-sized chunks to finely crushed granules that resemble refined sugar. The smallest size, commonly called “snow,” is the easiest to work with. This is usually applied by dissolving the required amount in water and spraying or pouring the solution over and around the treatment area. Another commonly used method for applying copper sulfate is to place the needed amount of bluestone in a burlap bag and drag it around the pond, either behind a boat or by wading. This can be very difficult if the filamentous algae is thick. Copper sulfate by-products can be toxic to fish eggs and newly hatched fry, so avoid using it during spring spawning periods.
One of the problems with copper sulfate is that it can bind to organic materials and suspendedclay particles in the pond. This reduces its effectiveness in controlling algae. A number of companies have developed more effective variations of the same chemical compound thatallow the copper to remain in solution and stay active longer. These herbicides are more effective than plain copper sulfate, but they are also more expensive. Be sure to use stainless steel or plastic equipment for application of copper products because they are extremely corrosive to most metals. As with copper sulfate, timing the applications of modified copper products is important because they are also toxic to fish eggs and newly hatched fry.
http://www.victorpest.com/landscape/landscape3.htm
http://ohioline.osu.edu/b780/b780_10.html
http://bryophytes.science.oregonstate.edu/page20.htm
http://www.pondsolutions.com/copper-sulfate.htm
Skimming this info, it appears that copper sulfate would be the real culprit. In areas of high sulphur concentrations in the air this might be a slightly valid concern if there were no gutters on the house. The small amount of water that misses the gutter is probably not worth considering. I can think of many instances where the downspout discharge runs over landscaping and grass. I don't know of any problems. If you're still concerned, check with a local extension agent.
edit: apparently copper hydroxide is cure for many plant ailments
http://muextension.missouri.edu/xplor/agguides/hort/g06203.htm
Edited 9/9/2004 1:50 pm ET by greencu
Thanks, greencu! I'll read through all of the links you provided. If I go with the copper roof, I'll be adding a much better guttering system than the house now has (which is pretty pathetic!). The pitch of my roof, 'though, is pretty steep, so I'm guessing that even the best gutter system won't catch everything, but maybe it will catch 'enough.'
A couple of people over on the Over the Fence forum told me that they've seen houses with copper guttering (not roofing) where the run-off from the gutters left a really obvious 'dead zone' in the grass. I think I can figure out how to keep at least 3 of 4 downspouts from exiting right into my garden beds; the 4th would require a little more ingenuity!
Someone on that forum also suggested that I try to find a half dozen houses in town that have copper roofs, installed in the last five years or so, and see what the foundation greenery looks like. I think I'll add that to my list of things to check out before I make a decision.
Thanks!
I just had to deliver some fabrication to a job site and had to pass three copper roof jobs I've done in the last 5 years. I stopped and took a look at all three. They all have at least one downspout that dumps onto a splash block and then directly onto grass. No dead zones. I will continue to keep an eye out for signs of "dead zones."
This is just one man's opinion, but I have never seen coper runoff kill plantings.
What I have sen multiple times is a dead zome at the drip line area because of the erosion, and pounding that young plants take from the drippage and ice falling there. it depends on the roof pitch, amount of rainfall, and maturity of the plants chosen. Tiny baby plants will be knocked ouyt for the count, but fairly mature border and foundation plantings break up the rainfall waterfall before it washes and damages the roots.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It is not just copper sulfate.I believe that Oxides are similar. And there here are a number of other copper and zinc compounds that have anti fungal characteristics.
Common examples, CCA, ACQ, and copper naptha.
But I agree with your general comments with reasonal care that it won't be a problem.
Very slight dissent here. In my case, it did indeed retard plant growth for a short time. I had new copper roofs installed on several porches here at Zippyland, and yes, they did in fact cause a dead zone at the dripline on the un-guttered roofs. The dead zone only lasted for a part of a season- about as long as it took the copper to oxidize and go from blindingly bright to its current brownish patina. It also stained everything green in that drip area for a few months. Two years later, the green staining is gone and everything planted in the vicinity is doing fine- including the weeds!
Thanks, everyone! Keep the messages coming! The more I learn, the better decision I'll be able to make........Interesting, Zippy, that the 'dead zone' went away after the roof patina'd a bit. I was wondering if aging of the roof would help, in that the surface of the roof (or gutter) would somehow stabilize chemically after being exposed to the elements. Sounds like maybe that's the case..? If so, then maybe it's mainly a matter of protecting the greenery I've got for a year or so (or at least not adding any more near the house) and watching what happens. I don't mind dealing with an 'adjustment period,' I just don't want to goof up my landscaping by putting on a roof that will be a permanent menace to anything green within its reach!
Greencu---feel free to continue your reconnaissance of copper roofs as you're out and about, and let me know what you find!
We have a copper snowbelt approx 30" wide around the entire perimeter of the house and have had no problems anywhere. Also have a couple of spirea that catch a lot of the runoff from the copper valleys as well as the snowbelt and we need to cut them back. All of this going on 8yrs or so. There was a copper snowbelt there before and saw no difference, and that was there prior to 3 re-roofings.
Just random data points.
There is a big copper rose arbor here in my town, and the roses are thriving.
I have a copper planter that has had various flowers in it with no apparent problems.
Hey, but they say you can use a strip to stop algae growth below on a roof, and copper is used for anti-fouling paint on boats and such.
Must depend on the organism in question.
In 1999 I built a house that had a copper roof on the porch over the front door and copper flashing, about 9" exposure, around the foundation, about 2 feet above grade. The porch is peaked in the middle and drains to both sides. On both sides of the porch I had plantings of annuals and perennials. Around the rest of the house I had grass.
There was no evidence of any difference in the growth of the grass on parts of the house that had copper flashing compared to the shop and garage which did not have the flashing.
All the plants near the porch thrived as well as the plants further away.
When I sold the house in 2003, and visited in 2004, everything was just peachy.
Here's a link to an earlier post that shows some photos. The porch roof is all copper. The flashing ("watertable") between the foundation stone and the shingles is all copper. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=35025.3
By the way, if you have copper pipes you drink copper and water your plants with it, albeit at lower concentrations.
Dug around a bit.
From:
http://www.copper.org/applications/architecture/faqs.html#15
CDA, along with its sister organization ICA, is involved in extensive environmental testing and analysis of water runoff issues in various international locations. To-date, this information has been compiled in a summary report entitled Copper Roofs and Water Runoff.
Info at:
http://www.copper.org/applications/architecture/env_rfsrnffs.html
Further:
http://www.copper.org/innovations/1999/04/conn.html
I started to send her to the CDA originally, but felt it was like asking the tobacco industry if smoking is harmful.
Hi.........When I Googled this question a few days ago, I came across the copper.org site, but wasn't sure how biased it might be since it appears to be industry-supported. While I was at it, I found a very brief summary of the UConn copper roof study, but it wasn't as detailed as the one that pops up with the links that 4LORN1 supplied. I'll take a closer look!
By the way, I also found a reference to an ordinance in Palo Alto (CA) that appears to ban all new copper roofing (after 1/2003) for environmental reasons!
Overall, based on what I'm hearing and reading, it sounds like as long as I put on a really good guttering system (which the house desperately needs anyway), and check to see if anything I have planted near the house is particularly copper-sensitive, going with a copper roof would be fine. Once the roof oxidizes, any 'problem' would pretty much disappear and then I could plant whatever I like.
NOW, does anyone have any other potential negatives about copper roofing that I ought to know about, ha, ha?! I've been so focused on the greenery issue that I haven't poked around to see if there's anything else I should know about before I make a final decision.......Issues like wear-and-tear, ease (or difficulty) of repairs, anything that someone who doesn't know much about roofing probably wouldn't think of.
This new roof will probably be the biggest single (and lasting, I hope!) investment I make in this darlin' 80-year old house, so I want to do it right.
Many thanks!
Suprised no one suggested your local Cooperative Extension. They've been a wealth of info to me on occassion.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Hi Eric....Good suggestion, one made just a little bit ago, too, on Over the Fence, where I also posted the question. I've never talked to our Extension Office folks, but will track 'em down and see what they have to say.........
> NOW, does anyone have any other potential negatives about copper roofing that I ought to know about, ha, ha?!
Copper is about the longest-lasting lowest-maintenance roof you can get. For both repairs and the initial installation, the big problem is finding someone who knows how to do it. Just like Toyota has a lot more dealerships than Rolls-Royce, roofers who don't do copper far outnumber those who do. The material is fairly expensive, but the big cost is the skilled labor.
As for repairs, the way to avoid needing them is to not let the roof get damaged in the first place. So don't let just anybody go up there and poke holes, like for a satellite dish. Leave it alone, and it can last hundreds of years.
The plant issue is nowhere near as simple as just copper yes or no. It's an interaction between the copper, the chemistry of your air, rain, and soil, and the specific kinds of plants. The best way to get an answer is to find other copper roofs in your area, and talk to the homeowners. You can find out how the plants are doing, and who did the roof work.
-- J.S.
It is interesting that you mention Palo Alto. My brother is a union plumber in the bay area and just recently he mentioned something to the effect that all the copper plumbing in all the houses in the bay area are contaminating the bay in a minute but measurable way. Apparently the pipes are gradually leaching enough copper into the water that ultimately drains into the sf bay.
His source would have been someone in the union training program. If this really is the case I could see it being the cause for Palo Altos decision.
Karl