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Discussion Forum

Copper roofs

pino | Posted in General Discussion on March 30, 2004 05:44am

Anyone here know anything about copper roofs?

we were thinking about Van de hey Raleigh concrete shingles, but turns out they are too heavy for our old roof. Rather than trying to beef up the rafters we thought we might switch direction completely.

I saw a home awhile back with what appeared to be copper shingles. I took a look at the Revere Copper site that they do produce them.

Anyone have any experience good or bad? Beyond the wearability, I am curious if they stain wood siding or rafter tails? Any special underlayments, installation techniques? I have

feeling it is going to be hard to find a local installer.

If its any help, i live just outside on Chicago about 15 miles from heavey industry (acid rain).

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  1. WayneL5 | Mar 30, 2004 05:58am | #1

    I put copper shingles on my porch roof in 1999.  They were made by Zappone (if I'm spelling it correctly).  The house is in rural upstate NY.  No sign of green, but they have weathered to a dark brown, like an old penny.  There is a very slight trail of green coming down where the water runs off, but it's really hard to judge since the house is painted green.  The drip edge and facia were copper, too.

    They weren't hard to install.  My contractor read the directions and had them up in no time.  They are nailed one at a time with copper nails.  Because of the price you have to measure somewhat more accurately, and get all the proper flashing, too.  But, if you are short you can have another box shipped UPS.  They went on right over regular tar paper.

    They are too slippery to walk on.  The entire porch could be done from a ladder, but a full roof would need you to be tied off.  They will show where you put weight on them, and you can crush them if you are heavy, but after they start to weather you won't care.

    All metal roofs make noise in the rain.  I, like many people, like it, but some don't.

    Our county court house had a copper roof.  It was just replaced with a new one after its 100 year anniversary.  Copper will last a long time.

    http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=35025.3

    1. pino | Mar 30, 2004 06:25am | #2

      Thanks for the input.

      we are thinking of doing a copper standing seem roof as well on a large car port. To help buffer the sound I thought about a sheet of EPDM underneath. Don't know if its worth the money or not but I thought I would ask a roofer.

      1. davidmeiland | Mar 30, 2004 09:45am | #3

        A buddy of mine is a coppersmith, and he put a hand-formed standing seam copper roof on a fabulous craftsman house (new construction) a couple years ago. Made it all up in his shop. He used 10 foot material and each pan had three pieces, alternating long-short-long, short-long-short, etc. He made all the flashing, caps, etc. Cost was $1500 per square installed. It looked awesome... better than any roof I have ever seen... I've never been jealous of another man's... ROOF... before, but I am now. If I could drop 25K on my roof he'd be up there right now.

        Same guy also installs typical standing seam steel, and does all kinds of nifty interlocks that make the stuff work really well.

        1. pino | Mar 30, 2004 10:59am | #4

          this buddy wouldn't happen to work in the chicago area would he?

  2. seeyou | Mar 30, 2004 02:55pm | #5

    I've done some copper shingle roofs and many standing seam roofs. Don't put epdm underneath. I normally use #30 felt and red rosin paper underneath the copper. If you've got proper insulation in your attic, it's doubtful you'll notice any more roof noise than any other roof.

    The shingles I've used were manufactured by Conklin in Atlanta. I've got about 5 sq. left over if you're interested.

    1. eggdog23 | Mar 30, 2004 04:24pm | #6

      We are working on a leaking porch roof that is currently tiled, and I wanted to change over to copper.  What is the minimum pitch recommended for a standing seam roof?  I would estimate this roof to be 1:12.  Do you think soldered seam would be better?

      BTW--good tip with the rosin paper underneath the copper.

      Aaron

      1. seeyou | Mar 30, 2004 05:29pm | #7

        3/12 is the normal break point. Normally, any lower pitch than that and I switch to flat seam. If it's being installed over unheated space, you can use standing seam, but the installation is slightly different. Instead of locking one pan directly to the top of the lower pan, a cleat should be soldered on to the lower pan several inches below the top of the pan. The upper pan locks to the cleat. If the total width of the porch is less than your bending capabilities (10' in my case), then this is not a concern. Lateral seams are where the leaks will develop. Soldering the lateral joints will only work temporarily as the lateral joints are designed as expansion joints and will break eventually. I would also install ice barrier membrane to the entire roof before installing the copper.

        1. eggdog23 | Mar 31, 2004 08:07pm | #17

          Thanks for the info.  As far as terminology, is flat seam the same as "beaten panel?"

          Also, on replacement work, do you typically remove all existing roofing down to the sheathing before installation.  We have a flat roof adjacent to the porch which consists of the original soldered terne roof, later covered with tar.  The flat part isn't currently leaking, but I am worried that if we don't do both sections at the same time, there will be a leak where the copper porch roof connects to this flat section.

          Thanks again.

          Aaron

          1. seeyou | Mar 31, 2004 08:58pm | #18

            is flat seam the same as "beaten panel?"

            I suppose so. I never heard that term before, but the locks are hammered flat and soldered.

            do you typically remove all existing roofing down to the sheathing before installation

            Yes. I have gone over epdm and there have been situations where weight was not a problem where I have resheathed over existing roofs ( a builtup roof is one example). Oherwise, I tear off and dry-in with ice barrier membrane or RTG II or Titanium.

            Check this out: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=34964.1

            Edited 3/31/2004 2:06 pm ET by greencu

    2. pino | Mar 30, 2004 06:14pm | #8

      Are the shingles you have on hand the pressed copper ones with the relief or flat?

      1. seeyou | Mar 30, 2004 09:05pm | #9

        They're stamped with the relief in them.

        1. pino | Mar 30, 2004 09:21pm | #10

          Very nice. I will show them to my wife and get back to you. Don't know how soon our project will start, but I should know more end of next week.

          1. seeyou | Mar 30, 2004 10:36pm | #11

            I'll go count and tell you how many pieces I've got - I've forgotten - If you're interested, I'll make you a deal. I've got finished project photos if you want to see 'em.

            Edited 3/30/2004 3:37 pm ET by greencu

          2. davidmeiland | Mar 31, 2004 08:45am | #12

            I talked to the Zappone folks today. They say figure $500 / square for their copper shingles and the flashings and trims. Wish I could...

          3. seeyou | Mar 31, 2004 02:03pm | #14

            Yeah, that sounds about right. Copper's gone up quite a bit recently. When I bought the shingles I have, I got a price from the manufacturer. I also got a price from the distributor that I buy most of my sheet copper and gutter from. The distributor was about 5% cheaper and I got free delivery to the job site. I was going to have to pay freight if I bought directly from the manufacturer.

          4. User avater
            GoldenWreckedAngle | Mar 31, 2004 05:58pm | #16

            I've got finished project photos if you want to see 'em.

            'Scuse me for interupting guys. Greencu, I wouldn't mind gauking at those pics myself if you decided to post them. Can't afford ya but I sure like looking at your stuff.

            Thanks - carry on.Kevin Halliburton

            "Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will serve before kings; he will not serve before obscure men." - Solomon

          5. seeyou | Mar 31, 2004 09:19pm | #20

            Here's several pics of the cu shingle job. I think I've posted these before, but I can't find 'em.

          6. seeyou | Mar 31, 2004 09:27pm | #21

            OOPS

          7. JohnSprung | Mar 31, 2004 09:46pm | #22

            In picture ck7, is this work in progress with the ridge not complete?

            -- J.S.

          8. seeyou | Mar 31, 2004 11:35pm | #24

            In picture ck7, is this work in progress with the ridge not complete?

            Yeah - I used standard 12" ridge roll on it. I can't find any finished pics taken up on the roof. I just took some from the ground after the whole thing was finished. I'm trying to remember to take before, during and after from the same posistions.

          9. Novy | Apr 01, 2004 12:27am | #25

            Very pretty roof !On a hill by the harbour

          10. seeyou | Mar 31, 2004 01:59pm | #13

            I've got 690 shingles which is about 4.75 sq.

          11. pino | Mar 31, 2004 05:45pm | #15

            I will give it serious thought. I must say though that we aer still in the planning/design phase and as such I don't know how close we are on decision making.

            Where are you located? I am near Chicago.

          12. seeyou | Mar 31, 2004 09:13pm | #19

            I'm in KY. It's about a 7 hour drive from inside the LOOP. I worked in Chicago for about 8 months building bridges on the Edens & JFK Xways. If you get interested, email me and and I'd be glad to meet you halfway if you want 'em.

          13. eggdog23 | Mar 31, 2004 10:39pm | #23

            I'd be glad to meet you halfway if you want 'em

            Hey, I'm in Indianapolis---you guys can meet at my house! ;)

            Aaron

    3. Karrl | Aug 12, 2004 12:33am | #28

      Greencu, I appreciated all the info you provided on copper gutter pricing (in another thread.

      On the same roof there are two bugle shaped turrets approx 6' in diameter at the base and 1' diameter at the top. There are 11 courses of shingles with 5" exposure. The cedar shingles currently installed are 21 years old and don't have much life left.

      I am contemplating copper as it is a nightmare to set up scaffolding to safely work on these and I hope to make this next roof last a lifetime. The bugle shape creates a compound curve of sorts that makes roofing it with sheet copper and seams appear to be quite a challenge and I have yet to find anyone who can refer me to a local sub who is interested in and capable of this work.

      I am curious if it can be roofed with individual copper shingles? I have done a bit of searching on the internet and not found anything that seems appropriate. Most products seem to have an interlock system that would render them useless on a curve/compound curved roof.

      Can a roof such as this be roofed with shingles cut from copper sheet and nailed up similar to the cedar shingles they are replacing? If so does anyone make such a simple copper shingle?

      The tricky part about roofing this in shingles is it requires a bit of planning to get the shingle width correct to allow each course to adequately stagger the gaps between the shingles. The existing wood shingles were all precut to the correct width for each course and tapered along their length.

      Would I be better off finding a local sheetmetal shop to shear some up for me? If so are there any guidelines you can offer on dimensions, exposure or installation?

      I will go snap a few digital photos of the turret and try to post a few pictures of it.

      Thanks again for sharing your expertise.

      karl

      Edited 8/11/2004 5:54 pm ET by karl

      1. Karrl | Aug 12, 2004 01:10am | #29

        We'll see if this attachment works. It is my first try to post a file/photo attachment.

        There are two turrets total and they are mirror images of eachother.

        Thanks for any input,

        karl

        1. User avater
          Sphere | Aug 12, 2004 01:37am | #31

          I think yer on the right track..architecturally, it SHOULD be slate/cedar shingles...but copper shingles might fly..

          If it was FACETED like a steeple, or bell tower (with or with out a curved hip rafter) maybe sheets would look OK..

          Me? I'd do it in shingle fashion..probly slate. JMHO. 

          Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

          1. Karrl | Aug 12, 2004 05:27pm | #34

            Thanks for the aesthetic input. I would probably stick with wood if I don't do copper. Do you have any experience with treated wood shingles? I read a thread about reactions to the new formula for treated lumber and the thought of custom ripping a taper on 400-500 shingles makes me reticent if the sawdust will be that toxic.

            Thanks again,

            Karl

      2. UncleDunc | Aug 12, 2004 01:11am | #30

        Have you thought of fabricating a trumpet out of copper sheets with soldered seams?

        1. Karrl | Aug 12, 2004 05:29pm | #35

          I have thought about custom fabbed copper, I am just not finding anyone who can enthusiastically refer a sub. in my area. Sphere and Greencu now make me question the aesthetics of that option.

          Thanks for the suggestion

          Karl

      3. seeyou | Aug 12, 2004 12:55pm | #32

        Beautiful turret.

        Sphere's right - cedar or slate would be appropriate. Standing seam cu is do-able, but wouldn't look right in my mind's eye. Flat seam would be too plain. I don't know of any off the shelf copper shingles that will work without major modification because of the severe taper. Diamond shaped copper shingles are the first thing that comes to my mind. They would have to be custom made as each course would get progresively smaller. If you want to email me some dimensions, I can give you a guess what it might cost to fab. I just shipped 5 sq of cu shingles to VA for $250 about a month ago. I'm in KY.

        1. Karrl | Aug 12, 2004 05:24pm | #33

          Greencu, Thanks for the response.

          "Diamond shaped copper shingles are the first thing that comes to my mind. They would have to be custom made as each course would get progresively smaller."

          The diamond shaped shingles sound interesting but I have trouble understanding how to calculate their size as well as envision their application. Once fabricated are they simply nailed up in a similar fashion to wood shingles, or is there more to it?

          Are there any books, journals, etc that are readily availible to explain how they work as a roofing system?

          I am starting to conclude I may be better off staying with wood shingles and hoping the new treated shingles will last longer than the currently installed cedar.

          The gleaming new look of recently applied copper will definitely look out of place but as it dulls down to a brownish color it should be more subtle. I like a greenish patina but have a hard time envisioning it on this house. Ideally it would stay the color of most of the copper pipe I run across ie dull brown.

          I am definitely open to having custom shingles fabricated once I have a better grasp of the finished look, how to measure for fabrication, and how to install.

          Thanks for your input and if you can point me in the direction of any educational literature I would appreciate it.

          Karl

          1. seeyou | Aug 13, 2004 02:20am | #38

            re: diamond shaped cu shingles. I drew up some nice little sketches to illustrate what the shingles would look like ( I can't find any literature on any off the shelf ) and how they would work on your turret, but my scanner won't work ( I don't have a cad prog). I'll get 'em to you when I figure out what's wrong with the scanner. If those wood shingles have felt under them, that could be the culprit on the short life span.  

      4. User avater
        aimless | Aug 12, 2004 06:20pm | #36

        Karl,

          I'm just a homeowner, but I thought that wood, properly installed, DOES last a lifetime, or at least for 60 years or so.  Particularly on a slope that steep. How old is the roof that is failing? Are there problems with the installation? If the wood isn't lasting, I'd first want to figure out why. Then I'd probably beef up the framing and go with slate, if that is feasible.

        Edited to add: by the way, what a beautiful turret!

        Edited 8/12/2004 11:21 am ET by aimless

        1. Karrl | Aug 12, 2004 07:37pm | #37

          Aimless, I don't know what to expect from wood. This roof is 21 years old. I am sure species of wood and climate play a factor. I grew up hearing 20 to 30 years was a good rule of thumb for wood.

          The top layer of these shingles are eroded completely away on the southern exposure. I am curious if there are simple methods to treat wood that will prolong its life in such a direct exposure. It would be a simple matter to dip the shingles in some sort of preservative as they are being prepped (ripped to size/tapered). It is already such a laborious process adding the time spent dipping them is negligible.

          I am still intrigued by the diamond shaped copper shingles that greencu mentioned. As I look at some of the twenty year old copper flashings, the brownish color achieved after twenty years is perfect. I am hoping for something that doesn't require the skills of a coppersmith to install. That way I can avoid looking for the right person and waiting for their schedule to open up. Additionally I would like to take the scaffolding down sometime sooner rather than later.

          thanks for your input.

          Karl

          1. User avater
            aimless | Aug 13, 2004 06:44am | #39

            Well, 21 years seems like a short time for a cedar roof to last. Unfortunately, a lot of the guys who actually know about roofs are enroute to rhodefest. I think if you bump this thread up next week (say Tuesday when the beer is completely worn off) you might get some insight into why that roof is failing. I had a shake roof on my house when I bought it and was told it should last a minimum of 50 years. I replaced it because the separate garage had been improperly installed and was leaking badly (and because I didn't like the critters that were living in it), but the roof still had life left in it after 30 years. Admittedly, shakes are a lot thicker than shingles, but I'd expect something that steep to last a good while longer than 20 years.

          2. Karrl | Aug 13, 2004 07:26am | #40

            Aimless and Greencu,

            I really should start a new thread as I am shifting the focus of the original thread.

            FWIW the failing cedar shingles don't have felt under them. Cedar shingles are thin enough that it seems the elements on the southern exposure have just worn through the shingles.

            I have attached a few photos to show the type of failure I am trying to remedy.

            Thanks for the input.

            Karl

          3. seeyou | Aug 13, 2004 01:15pm | #41

            Yeah, it's time for a new roof.

            I found some links for some cu diamond shingles.

            http://www.vhr-roof-tile.com/PDF/DiamondShingleICBO.pdf

            http://www.ccbda.org/pdfs/CCMagazinePDFs/E141A.PDF

            http://www.diamondroof.on.ca/product.html

            If I were fabricating the shingles, they would look similar (without the stamping) to the vhr product. Installation would be similar. With dimensions of the turret, we'd figure how big we'd want the starting course of shingles to be. With the diameter, we figure how many shingles it takes to make the first course. Using that number and the decreasing diameter as we work up the turret, we can figure how much to reduce the size of each course. There are two options to the size reduction. 1) reduce the width and height at the same rate, which makes the course reveal smaller as we get to the top resulting in more courses, or 2) leave the height constant and reduce the width only as we go up.

          4. Karrl | Aug 13, 2004 05:56pm | #43

            Greencu, I really like the look and the idea of the diamond copper shingles. My only reservation is the margin for error in correctly sizing the shingles. I get the impression that there is not a lot of margin for adjustment.

            Is the measurement process as simple as measuring the circumference at the eave and then measuring the circumference at each succeeding shingle exposure?

            I am also a bit unclear on the shingles ability to allow for the "bugle" shape/compound curve.

            Finally, I wonder about installation. I have good mechanical skills, have good geometric skills and have 22 years in the trades. I haven't worked much with sheet metal since high school shop 20+ years ago and in spite of a desire and willingness to install myself I don't know how much specifically coppersmithing skill is required to do a quality installation.

            If you think the measurement and install concerns are not insurmountable I will send you a private email to see what the logisitics would be of getting you to fabricate the necessary shingles.

            Thank you very much for all the input.

            Karl

          5. seeyou | Aug 13, 2004 07:11pm | #44

            Is the measurement process as simple as measuring the circumference at the eave and then measuring the circumference at each succeeding shingle exposure?

            Pretty much. The trick is to mark control lines from the top to the eave for each row and align  the bottom tip with the alternate course below. If you install each shingle this way, the side lap might change slightly, but it would be unoticable in the finished product. Also, starting at the most noticable side and working toward the least makes any trimming end up on the back side.

            I am also a bit unclear on the shingles ability to allow for the "bugle" shape/compound curve.

            They'll conform fine.

            Finally, I wonder about installation. I have good mechanical skills, have good geometric skills and have 22 years in the trades.

            If I get good measurements, you shouldn't have to cut but a max. of two pieces per course, if that. The top course might need to be trimmed to allow the finial back over. The hard part is going to be getting up there, and tearing off the old wood shingles.

          6. Karrl | Aug 13, 2004 08:26pm | #45

            Greencu,

            Your latest post is encouraging.

            Before tearing off the existing shingles I might use the butts of them to help me measure the circumference of each course accurately. The current exposure is 5".

            Will those numbers work for calculating the shingle dimensions? I don't know how critical the measurements are. I realize shingle thickness will alter the numbers of the actual size of the underlying wood substrate.

            If I should calculate the circumference using a different exposure, what is optimal for the diamond copper shingles.

            I will plan on getting some circumference measurements right away and will email you to inquire about your fabrication services.

            I really appreciate you guiding me through this process.

            Karl

          7. seeyou | Aug 13, 2004 10:28pm | #46

            Karl,

            Get some rosin paper, felt, brown wrapping paper, alum. foil, or something you can cut some diamond shapes from and staple them to the turret. Stand back and take a look and see if the scale suits you. If not, adjust them sizewise.  A 10" diamond gives actual coursing of 5", so thats probably the best place to start.

            The closer the measurements are, the better things will match on the back when they come together from either side. As a hedge against problems there, if some varying width shingles are included  in the package, they could be used as cheats if the two sides don't hit quite right.  

          8. Karrl | Aug 13, 2004 11:39pm | #47

            Thanks Greencu,

            The pdf file on the embossesed diamond shingles made them look as though they are actually squares rotated 45 degrees. I will make up some samples in the 10" size and see how they work.

            I am still unclear how you can vary the width but keep the exposure the same. More than likely a simple concept that will make perfect sense when I see it.

            I'll keep you posted as I make up some samples.

            I may have to strip the shingles to do it right and wouldnt have that done till the end of monday.

            karl

          9. seeyou | Aug 14, 2004 01:32am | #48

            Karl,

            You're right about the shingles being a square set on a corner in the pdf. In your situation, the first course would be exactly that. The first course would have "x" number of shingles. All would have four 90 degree angles. The second course and all succedding courses would also have "x" number of shingles. But to keep the points lined up on every other course the distance between the east-west corners would reduce on each course as you go up. The north-south distance would stay the same. The north and south corner angles would be less than 90 degrees and the east and west corner angles would grow more than 90 degrees.

            OK, I went and made one and took a picture. "X" will diminish slightly at each course and "Y" will stay the same. This is a prototype and can be refined or changed. I put a half inch kick on both bottom edges to create a feel of thickness.

          10. Karrl | Aug 14, 2004 02:30am | #52

            Greencu, thanks for the prototype photo. It helps me visualize the final product.

            Do the shingles interlock or just overlap?

            If they just overlap then everything seems a lot easier. The VHR ones you sent the link for seemed like they interlock.

            Thanks again,

            karl

          11. seeyou | Aug 14, 2004 12:31pm | #53

            They would just overlap. I can't get the pdf to open this AM, but I think the locking strip is applied to the stamped product, which could be done but is not necessary, given the slope of your project. If you notice on the one I made, there is a flat spot at the bottom rather than a point. This is folded under to lock onto an applied cleat if desired.

          12. Karrl | Aug 14, 2004 06:11pm | #54

            Thanks Greencu, that all makes sense. An interlock on the shingle would really complicate installation of the final shingle in each course.

            Now I just need to make some measurements and try some samples.

            Karl

          13. JohnSprung | Aug 14, 2004 02:06am | #49

            How big are the turrets?  From the picture, I'd guess the shingled portion might be about 4 - 5 ft high.  Do you have access to the inside of them?

            My thought is that you might be able to take measurements from the inside, build a copy of the turret framing, and take it to Greencu's shop.  He could then pre-fabricate two copies of the entire copper section to fit the framing copy, and you could put them in place using a crane. 

            -- J.S.

          14. seeyou | Aug 14, 2004 02:22am | #50

            That's an idea. I've done some turret box gutters/cornice on the gound and put 'em up with a crane.

          15. Karrl | Aug 14, 2004 02:27am | #51

            John, It would be pretty difficult access.

            Honestly I prefer the look of individual shingles in this particular application.

            Furthermore a crane access would be tricky on one of the two turrets.

            I appreciate the input and welcome any creative ideas.

            Karl

          16. Karrl | Aug 17, 2004 09:51pm | #55

            Greencu,

            I just finished a quick attempt at mocking up some 10" shingles. They look a little big but not to the extent that it bothers me.

            I am still confused as to how the shingles in the first few courses will differ from those used in the last few courses as the circumference is so radically different.

            I realize the photos are taken from quite a distance but can you get a sense of the proportion? and if I installed them correctly?

            Do I just take circumference measurements every five inches and that is all the info required to fabricate them? or is there more to it?

            Thanks again,

            Karl

          17. seeyou | Aug 18, 2004 02:19am | #56

            I am still confused as to how the shingles in the first few courses will differ from those used in the last few courses as the circumference is so radically different.

            There will be the same number of shingles in each course. There has to be for the diamonds to line up vertically. For instance, course #1 has a circumference of 150". We decide to use 15 shingles per course. The exposed portion of each shingle will be 10" wide. Course #2 has a circumference of 145". We divide 145"  by 15 and get 9.66". Each shingle in course #2 will have a 9.66" wide exposure. Course #3 has a circumference of 137". 137"/15=9.13" and so on.  The shingles will start out as you have mocked them up, but will scale down as they reach the top. The height (reveal) of each course will remain constant.

            Do I just take circumference measurements every five inches and that is all the info required to fabricate them?

            Yup. The only other thing I would need is a sketch or a close up photo of the bottom edge of the sheathing where it meets the moulding or fascia below. This is so I know how to resolve the bottom edge detail.

            What part of the country are you in, by the way?

            Edited 8/17/2004 7:23 pm ET by greencu

          18. UncleDunc | Aug 18, 2004 02:48am | #57

            >> The height (reveal) of each course will remain constant.

            Which means that the angle will become much smaller as you go up, such that the top course will look more like arrowheads than diamonds. I think I would put in a band of straight butt shingles at some point part way up so I could start over with wider diamond shaped shingles and not end up with 2" wide shingles in the top course.

          19. seeyou | Aug 18, 2004 01:16pm | #59

            That's certainly a good option. Knowing the actual circumferences would allow me to sketch it out. What I have visualized looks good in my head with the shingles diminishing as the diameter of the turret diminishes. If the top dia. is 12" (looks larger to me) then the circumference is about 38". Trying to scale off the picture, I get 48" for the bottom dia. giving us 151" of circumference. If we use 12 shingles per course, we start out at 12.5" per shingle and diminish to about 3.25" per shingle. If these diminsions are correct then around the middle, the shingles are going to be about 8" wide. 3/4 of the way up - 5.25".

            Go back to the picture and look at all the gingerbread on the turret body below the roof. That stuff is pretty delicate ( I'd hate to have to paint it ). I think the small (arrowheads is a good discription) shingles would look right as this is a fairly delicate structure. It's not mine, though.

            Edited 8/18/2004 6:37 am ET by greencu

          20. UncleDunc | Aug 18, 2004 02:15pm | #61

            >> I think the small (arrowheads is a good discription) shingles would look right ...

            De gustibus non est disputandum.

            You're right, it all depends on the actual measurments. Based on Karl's estimate of 6' diameter at the bottom and 1' at the top, I was imagining shingles 12" wide at the bottom and 2" wide at the top. IMHO, that would look like he!!. I also wondered if the 2" ones would be stiff enough, without, admittedly, having any clear idea of how stiff is stiff enough.

            Edited 8/18/2004 7:17 am ET by Uncle Dunc

          21. Karrl | Aug 18, 2004 04:58am | #58

            Hi Greencu,

            I am in Santa Cruz, California. I am nonetheless intrigued by the option of you fabricating and shipping them out. I wouldn't know who to use locally and you have such a clear grasp of what I need.

            I am also intrigued by Uncle Duncs idea of square butt on the middle row to reset the sizing.

            The radius up top is only about 6 or 8 inches so it could be a real challenge to keep the number of shingles constant if the bottom radius is 3 feet or more.

            Thanks for the continuing input. I will work on setting up staging to allow accurate measurements tomorrow.

            Are you open to fabricating shingles that would be shipped to the west coast?

            Thank you, Karl

            Edited 8/18/2004 1:33 am ET by karl

            Edited 8/18/2004 1:34 am ET by karl

          22. seeyou | Aug 18, 2004 01:45pm | #60

            I will work on setting up staging to allow accurate measurements tomorrow.

            When you get one measured, let's do a little design work and see what we come up with. See my post to uncle dunc above.

            Are you open to fabricating shingles that would be shipped to the west coast?

            I've shipped to both coasts. When I get some fairly close measurements and we get the design options set, I can quote a price and get a shipping rate. 

          23. User avater
            Sphere | Aug 18, 2004 03:05pm | #62

            make sure to include shipping me out there for the install..Cali. looks good about jan/feb...

            hell, I'll deliver em.

             

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

          24. seeyou | Aug 18, 2004 04:59pm | #63

            You made it back!!!!!!!!  I'll be expecting to hear some tales.

            You about ready for those columns?

          25. User avater
            Sphere | Aug 18, 2004 05:05pm | #64

            yuup..I'm here.

            I need to come up to ya anyway..I figgured wrong on the valley, I am gonna have to swap ya a 4' hunk for more like a 6'...I thought I had enough..

            mebbbe tomorrow?  still waitn for ABC to call too, but that would be too much to cram in the van..got a stuck throttle on the truck, oughtta get it cleaned today..how big again are they? 

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

          26. seeyou | Aug 18, 2004 05:08pm | #65

            They're less than 8' tall, but I don't have 'em down yet. I've got another job for you to look at next door to this one if you might be interested. Cornice/box gutter rebuild.

            Give me a call.

          27. User avater
            Sphere | Aug 18, 2004 05:11pm | #66

            will do, got a lot of little stuff hangin around to do, so free time ain't too hard to find...just shuffleing things around. 

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

          28. Karrl | Aug 18, 2004 05:12pm | #67

            Thank you Greencu,

            I will write back with accurate circumference dimensions every 5" of exposure. The only complication is I would rather not tear off the shingles at this stage of the process so I will need to calculate the impact of the shingle thickness on the circumference.

            I think I can measure circumference of the actual turret sheathing at the butt of the first course as well as the circumference on top of the shingles. My grasp of mathmatical theory is inadequate to verify that I can determine that the wood shingle thickness increases the circumference by a fixed percentage and use this percentage to calculate the underlying circumference at each course.

            In other words I am hoping to take the circumference dimensions every five inches on top of the shingles and assume that the percentage difference between the turret sheathing circumference and the circumference on top of the existing wood shingles will stay constant as the radius decreases.

            I will keep you posted.

            thanks again,

            Karl

          29. seeyou | Aug 18, 2004 06:35pm | #68

            Karl:

            If you give me a "close" circumference at the bottom and one at the top and the distance between the eave and the bottom of the finial, I can give you a price. If all is acceptable, we can talk about time schedules, shipping, etc. As mentioned before, I would send several extra of each course size to use as cheaters on the back side if necessary. Be careful up there.

            Edit: If you can, for your "precise" measurements, measure at the shingle butts. Approximate how thick the shingles are and I can take it from there.

            G

            Edited 8/18/2004 11:46 am ET by greencu

          30. Karrl | Aug 18, 2004 10:57pm | #69

            Greencu, That all sounds great. I will try to have the measurements tonite or tomorrow depending on how fast we get the staging erected.

            Thanks for explaining the requisite measurements.

            Karl

          31. Karrl | Aug 19, 2004 02:53am | #70

            Greencu,

            I just finished my steeplejack simulation getting the measurements. I feel confident on my numbers but if anything seems really out of whack, by all means question it. I was a bit distracted by the height I was hanging from and could have misread my measurement. Nonetheless I think they are good.

            The overall distance from eave to cap is 55"

            The following measurements are taken at the butt of the existing shingles, so the actual circumference is going to be smaller by the amount a shingle thickness of approximately 3/4 to 1" of thickness would create.

            Course 1 -- 49 7/8 circumference

            Course 2 -- 61 1/8

            Course 3 -- 72 1/2

            Course 4 -- 85 1/2

            Course 5 -- 99 3/4

            Course 6 --116 3/4

            Course 7 --133 1/2

            Course 8 --152

            Course 9 --172 1/2

            Course 10--193

            Course 11--??? I couldn't wrap the butt on the first course so I am guessing that it would be approximately 214 given my estimate of the predicted change in the table below.

            This is a list of how much the circumference changes from one course to the next.

            Course 1 -- 11 1/4 change

            Course 2 -- 11 3/8 change

            Course 3 -- 13change

            Course 4 -- 14 1/4 change

            Course 5 -- 17 change

            Course 6 -- 16 3/4 change

            Course 7 -- 18 1/2 change

            Course 8 -- 20 1/2 change

            Course 9 -- 20 1/2 change

            Course 10--??? I will guess it is about 21 change

            If you want to discuss costs privately you can email me and I can give you a phone number. I am not averse to communicating via the forum as well.

            Thanks again,

            Karl

          32. seeyou | Aug 19, 2004 04:09am | #71

            Karl:

            That's exactly what i need. Give me a day or two and I'll email you a quote and we'll take it from there.

          33. Karrl | Oct 06, 2004 08:09am | #72

            Greencu, I meant to get photos up sooner but I had to go out of town and since my return have been struggling to stay productive in spite of a bad cold. Anyway better late than never.

            The installation was pretty straightforward. My only difficulty was trying to nail the last few courses as my sheeting had as many gaps as it did solid areas to nail to. After you gave me the thumbs up on using stainless sheet metal screws that problem went away.

            Your layout skills are awesome. The shingles you sent went up like a breeze. I didn't have to make any corrections or adjustments to get courses to end uniformly. The diamond pattern worked great and I am really happy with the proportions you chose. Initially I was startled at how big the first course shingles were but it looks great 35 feet off the ground.

            I am going to start putting shingles on the second turret tomorrow. I will try and take some photos as I go in case anyone ever wants to see the steps in the installation process broken down better.

            After stumbling my way through getting the drip edge to conform to the bottom edge's curve on the first turret, I found I must have learned something as the drip edge went up nice and smooth this afternoon on the second turret. Using a crimper on on the bottom edge was essential (in addition to cutting the top flange as you specified).

            After I get the second turret done and the scaffolding broken down I will get some photos that really show the turret shingles as they appear from the ground. I will post those in the photo folder.

            You were a breeze to work with, your fabrication skills are awesome and I give you the sincerest thanks for taking on my project. I really don't know who I could have found locally to design and fabricate such a unique project. People do a double take when I tell them a coppersmith in Kentucky did the design and fabrication work based on a few photos and a handful of circumference measurements.

            This is just one more example of what a valuable resource the breaktime crew is.

            Thank you for making this project a reality. It really looks fantastic.

            Karl

          34. User avater
            talkingdog | Oct 06, 2004 11:29am | #73

            Allow me to be the first to say "wow!"

            Looks much better than the shingles. Sortof has

            an exotic, Russian onion dome feel to it.

          35. JohnSprung | Oct 06, 2004 09:53pm | #77

            > Sort of has an exotic, Russian onion dome feel to it.

            Yes, and that's actually how the Russians made their domes -- copper over a wood frame.  The most famous one is the Intercession cathedral in Moscow's Red Square, aka St. Basil's.  It got re-done in 1980, the original copper was in bad shape after 420 years.

            http://sangha.net/st-basil.htm

            Greencu and Karl have done an excellent job together.  It's really impressive that something this complex, with so much room for cumulative error, can be cut out in Kentucky and assembled in California.  Congratulations to both of you.

            -- J.S.

          36. seeyou | Oct 06, 2004 02:19pm | #74

            Let me be the second to say "WOW". I couldn't have laid them out right if I didn't have good measurements and all the fancy fabrication goes right out the window if the installer doesn't do something right. You need to pat yourself on the back real hard.  And another thing, good customers get good service. It was a pleasure working with you. Nice job, Karl.

          37. User avater
            Sphere | Oct 06, 2004 03:25pm | #75

            FANTASTIC!!!

            Man that is sweeeet, I have been working with Greencu some lately, and YES you got the best guy for the job..he shuggs it off as "just not that hard" but we know better huh?

            Still wish I coulda come out to help...LOL..but you did a super job.

            That is a lifetime job, you will be able to gloat about it forever. 

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

          38. User avater
            aimless | Oct 06, 2004 06:37pm | #76

            Let me be another to add a WOW to both you and greencu. What a beautiful job by all, and certainly what that turret deserved.

            Edited to add: Now the rest of the house is going to be jealous.

            Edited 10/6/2004 11:38 am ET by aimless

          39. JohnT8 | Oct 07, 2004 12:31am | #78

            Outstanding results!  My hats off to both of you.  Amazing what can be accomplished without ever going to the installation site!   With results like that, I guess I can take greencu's built-in gutter advice as gospel.

            If I'm not being too nosey, karl, what does the rest of the exterior of the house look like (pics)?  Based on the detail around that turret, it must be something.

            jt8

          40. channelock | Oct 07, 2004 05:25am | #79

            That is pretty fantastic. Look forward to seeing more pics of this job. Good teamwork from two true pros.

          41. DougU | Oct 07, 2004 05:37am | #80

            Karl

            Thats fantastic!

            Cant imagine anything else on that turret, the two of you did yourselves proud.

            Doug

            And dont forget the other pics.

          42. User avater
            IMERC | Oct 07, 2004 06:58am | #81

            WOW!!!!  and then some...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          43. VaTom | Aug 13, 2004 03:19pm | #42

            Anybody here who can get 15 yrs out of a cedar roof gets the record.  10 is more like it.  Nobody makes that mistake a second time. 

            I remember the arid west where cedar worked well if it got oiled occasionally.

            Greencu's got the ticket.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

  3. JRuss | Apr 04, 2004 09:21pm | #26

    Contact Mike Neuens, Richmond Architectural, (708) 935-1569.

    He's done my copper work for years. He's 2nd generation in the copper business and they've done everything from Medieval church work to gutters. Tell him Russ sent you.

    Never serious, but always right.
    1. pino | Apr 05, 2004 03:48am | #27

      Thank you!

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