Knew to this on-line…chat thing, so I apologize for any blunders or faux pas.
Many moons ago, I worked for an Arch. renovating his girlfriends home, and I was fabricating and installing copper siding per his design. I always thought it would be a neat system to install on my home, and now I have the opportunity…beside which, I hate to paint and I’m not to found of vinyl!
The system was basically a standing seam installed on the vertical…besides the obvious cost consideration, what other concerns should I be leary off in installing a system like this and has anyone ever seen copper siding install as an exterior siding? On older buildings, I notice many of them have copper covering the penthouses.
Replies
I love copper myself, I'm tooling up to do a copper roof right now. I only see a couple issues wiith copper siding. With a lot of windows and doors, you might have to think harder about where to put expansion allowances than you do with a roof. Since the material has a high scrap value even in a damaged condition, there might be some concern that thieves would literally rip it off. There was a guy here a while back who had that problem with a copper downspout, they'd grab the lowest section.
I'd be eager to hear any advice you have on copper work, particularly cutting and bending big pieces in the field.
-- J.S.
Fortunatley...most of the siding will go on the 2nd floor...not that a determined theif can't figure out a way of getting it anyway.
Most of the bending we did was with 16 gauge copper off of an 8' break. Most of the runs I have to cover on my project are short lengths, so 8' would work well for me. The system I want to use would combine a number of bends that would overlap and get crimped together with a few well placed clips. The clips are the only pieces that get nailed to the wall sheithing which would allow for expansion up and down, but I'm not sure what would happen from side to side. What kind of house wrap would you use? I've read about this 1/4" mesh that goes underneath house siding which allows for air and condensation to flow, what do you think?
A fire house went up around here, a year or so ago and part of the exterior was clad in copper, From what I saw, the installers wrapped the structure in felt, strapped the building then installed the copper to that. The copper was in square panels.
If I had a digital camera......
anyway, I can't say how it was attached and if the method they used was the best or for that matter I can't really say what the installation method was, beyond what I said above, so...
Good LuckNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Appreciate the encouragement...but the difference between Noah and myself is he had the proverbial "Master Builder" designing his plans and oversseing his project...how big is a cubit anyway?
BK
21 inches. Elbow to fingertips.
Sort of relative to the cubit'er like most measures of foot & inches of old. Although an inch was supposed to be the distance of 3 seeds of barleycorn in length. Old world measurements are a / the reason the old world is like it is.
Fascinating topic. If you are really interested check out "Measuring America" I got a copy for Christmas from my wife. Only a true student of the way things work will find it fascinating. I found it to be a good explaination of our American system of self reliance and the founding fathers suspicion of the old boy network (some of them were old boys/scoundrels too). It starts with surveying America and goes on from there. Compared to the old world methods of "Meets and Bounds" Surveying caused a revolution in personal land ownership by itself.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
The layers for doing a roof are plywood sheathing (at least 5/8"), 30# felt, red rosin paper, then the copper. If the copper is soldered, it's watertight, so that's your barrier from the outside. There's no way for moist air to come in contact with the inside, so that should prevent condensation. If the wall isn't sheathed with ply like a roof, you'd have to provide some way of separating the cold surface of the copper from moist air. Your choice of insulation should work for that, but consider whether the plywood would be worth having just to protect the copper from getting dents.
-- J.S.
My understanding of the mesh is it goes on over a house wrap which is over 1/2" ply. on the exterior wall.
BK
What about View Image?
I don't know...what did they do when they came out with alum. siding?
BK
I don't know either. I came from an almost lightning free zone to here in Colombia, Mo. and this is the first ime I've seen lightning rods. So... I really wanted to post that cool pic. I copied it from a game and redid the BG and added more color.
SamT
John,
Here's a Copper Roof that was done on a Tower that I framed. The roofer went 9" to the weather and bent every piece so that they interlocked with eachother. The rest of the house was cedar shakes. The homeowner told the roofer to tap the copper down with a rubber mallet so that the copper was a little rough looking.
It took him a few weeks and it came out real nice.
Joe Carola
Yes, that's a very nice job. The seams are in a style known as flat lock. Usually they solder flat lock seams, but on this very steep cone they'll probably shed water OK without the soldering. But if they ever have trouble, that's the fix.
-- J.S.
My cut off for soldering/not soldering flat seam is 3/12 or less. Long as everything is lapped the right way, it'll shed.
Thanks -- How about for standing seams? I'm considering doing single lock and solder instead of double lock on my little 7 in 12. I've ordered the Tapco brake and cutter, and I have some of the hand tools, but so far nothing to squeeze the seams closed or do the second lock up on the roof. This is a learning exercise, so I'm interested in any advice you have.
-- J.S.
The tapco is a good portable brake. See if you can get your money on the cutter if it is the thing that slides down the face of the brake to rip sheets. It's probably fine for aluminum, but you need two or three people to use it accurately with copper. Try to limit your soldering to a minimum. You can form your standing seam pans (double seamed) on the brake so you only need a special tool for the final squeeze. On a 7/12 pitch roof, the only things I can think of that would need to be soldered are waste vent stacks, gas vent flashings and maybe static vents. Everything else (dormers, chimneys, wall abuttments, valleys, etc. ) can be folded watertight. If I remember correctly, you're in LA so snow is not a concern.
Look here for specialty tools: http://www.nabocker.com/
I can post some shop drawings if you need them. Glad to answer any other questions. Good luck.
Hi guys,
Great topic. Almost nobody where I live uses copper or wood. Vinyl is the material of choice. It's fascinating as I know nothing about it. (copper) The issue with the studio sided in copper was November. That's all I have to add.
ChadBut honey, I can make money if I had just one more tool. Really.
Thanks very much for the advice. If the Tapco cutter isn't so good, what do you recommend for ripping? My plan had been to buy 48" x 120" 16 oz, and rip it to 16" x 120" which would fold up into 13" x 120" pans. I went for the 32 oz capacity Tapco, thinking I'd use a little 32 for valleys and gutters, and that the heavier tools would make the 16 oz work easier. I do have a good table saw, are there blades that work for copper? I've done machine shop work on big blocks of copper, and it's not easy. It may be soft, but it's gummy, and expansion can make the hole close in around a drill.
Another thing I'm considering is getting some 4" type K copper pipe, and ripping it into two pieces the long way to make gutters. It's about four times thicker than 32 oz sheet, so it should stand up pretty well to having ladders leaned against it. I'd bend and solder a piece of 32 oz on one edge to attach it to the roof. I'm also considering making the ridge and transition to the back part of the roof by making a ridge vent. There's one in the CAD drawings I got with the CDA self study program.
Thanks again --
-- J.S.
You can rip sheets in your brake. Clamp the sheet down where you want to rip it and score the sheet with a utility knife. Bend the sheet to about 45 degrees and then push down on it with your hands. Bend it up again and work it up and down with your hands. It'll snap right off along the score line. Unless you're getting a great deal on 48" copper, I'd opt for 36" wide and rip it to two 18" blanks. One rip gets you 2 blanks verses 2 rips get you 3 blanks. Also, 48"x120" copper is a total b!tch to handle without kinking. Another option is your supplier might rip the sheets for you. I just bought 2 pallets ripped yesterday. They charge me $1/rip.
As far as your gutter idea, I don't know. It sounds like you're trying to re-invent the wheel, but I wish you luck. I'd be interested in hearing the results and seeing some pictures, so please keep me posted.
Thanks, I'll definitely post pictures once I get to work on the copper part. Going with 18" vs. 16" blanks would mean 15" vs 13" for the width of the pans. I'll draw that up on the CAD program and see if it gets too sparse looking for this little roof. The play of light and shadow on the seams is part of the beauty of this kind of roof. If a vendor will do the shear work for $1/cut, that may well be the way to go.
-- J.S.
Does anyone know of a good source of info concerning techniques for working with copper? Looking for soldering infor, and bending shapes for seams and flashings.
The Copper Development Association has videos and books on the subject. That's where I started. http://www.copper.org
-- J.S.
Edited 6/23/2003 3:15:17 PM ET by JOHN_SPRUNG
Yeah, what John said. The book and video tapes cost about $150.00. The tapes are worthless, but entertaining. The book is priceless for bending details. For soldering, hook up with someone that does it for a living and get them to teach you. I've been doing it daily for nearly 20 years and I've almost got it down.
There was an issue of Fine Homebuilding (wish I could remember the issue # for you...) with an article on an artist's outbuilding in the woods. It was sided with copper sheets. I can't recall whether the article described the siding method in details, but I do remember that one unexpected side effect of the copper siding was that the artist's cordless telephone didn't work so well inside the building! A land line would have solved her problem. But perhaps there are other electromagnetic spectrum issues in your own future...
Good luck with it.
--Olsh
I work in a Hospital, and one of the requirents of a MRI is to have a complete 6 sided envelope of copper surrounding the room. Pretty intersting details, I could see how that could impede radio frequencies. Thanks for the reply BK
So, if I had a copper roof and walls, does that mean I don't need to wear my aluminum foil had to keep the governent from collecting my thoughts?
In fact you would need to have one made of either gold or copper. (disimilar metals you know). Don't want your brain corroded.. (or is it corrupted?)
the reason Gold is OK is it's lack of free electrons..
Here in Southern California, I usually notice a cat or dog marking it, leaving a green patina drip mark. Also, by the ocean, use of copper seems to accelerated the rotting and rusting of steel flashing. nails, light fixtures etc.
Not to hijack the thread, but saw last week on Bob Villa's show where a guy did copper work. For that show he was lining wooden gutters. If I needed that work done, I wouldn't have a clue about where to looking for someone in that trade.
Don
It would fall under sheetmetal workers union (or non union) whatever!
> Also, by the ocean, use of copper seems to accelerated the rotting and rusting of steel flashing. nails, light fixtures etc.
Yes, absolutely copper will accelerate the corrosion of other metals such as steel, aluminum, zinc die castings, etc, if they are in direct contact. It should only be used with copper nails, copper flashing, etc. Brass is about 70% copper, so it should do OK. The problem is that the different metals in electrical contact in the presence of moisture turns into a sort of short circuited battery. A little salt in the mist only makes for a stronger electrolyte.
-- J.S.
That wasn't my place they wrote up, but I live in a copper sided house. RF reception is greatly diminished. We have large windows that help, depending on where you stand. The copper is grounded as we also live on top of a mountain, well, what passes for one in Virginia, and have significant lightning. So far our 80' trees around the house have taken all the strikes.
I originally planned for stucco but the guy I was counting on left the area. The rest of the stucco contractors didn't fit the budget. A contractor friend mentioned that as I was using 16 oz. copper for a small roof on an outbuilding, why not use same for siding. Result was using 3'x10' sheets, sold for valleys, as siding. I'd planned on attaching the stucco to metal studs. To avoid galvanic corrosion I, with difficulty, found nylon tee washers to isolate stainless screws from the copper. An additional 1/2" of insulation isolates the copper sheets from the galvanized studs.
A few years later I had occasion to build a similar house for a client who wanted the same thing I did- no maintenance. This time we attached copper zee strips so we could use copper rivets with brass mandrels to attach the copper sheets. Worked like a charm. Cost was $1.40/ft (current) for 16 oz. copper. Goes up fast. Not having a 10' brake, we used a valley tong for bending. Not anywhere near as crisp, but acceptable. We fabricated the copper clad windows.
Both houses are not subject to water problems (concrete) so we didn't have to be fastidious about water tightness and overlapped the sheets with a line of silicone in the seam, primarily to keep down the expansion/contraction noise. In our area, much to my dismay, copper doesn't turn green. I tried a small area of prematurely "aging" the copper. As the Revere site suggests, results were fair to poor. Dull brown is OK with us. A relief actually, after being an airplane hazard for several months.
Anybody wanting cheap lifespan siding can hardly do better than copper. On a traditional house, insulation ventilation should be addressed.
What is the house currently clad with? Do you plan on using purlins, foam, ???
Don
It will be new construction for a 2nd story addition. The current 1st floor exterior is a combination of stone and stucco over CMU. I plan to install the copper over a house wrap over 1/2 CDX sheathing.
I often use copper siding on dormer sides when installing a copper, slate, tile or other long lasting roof. The detail I use resembles aluminum siding (I wish I had a picture to post). The top of each piece has a folded cleat along the top. Small copper tabs with a corresponding bend on them are hooked into the continuous cleat and nailed to the wall. The next piece of siding also locks into this continuos cleatand the whole thing can expand and contract as much as it wants. It terminates into a copper j-channel similar to vinyl. The result looks like copper claps from the ground.
Other details could certainly be used, but it all needs to float like vinyl.
I've never seen it used as siding before. That's an interesting idea. I saw it done on TOH on a coupula(sp?) roof that was fabricated on site. Basically interlocking sheets custom bent. They were locked together by a standing seam joint. Basically it was a bend at 90 degrees with a hem in it not fully crimped but hemed. Then the next piece was locked into the previous one, folded over with a hand seamer and crimped together. It looked really good. I would be concerned about repairs. 16 guage is gutter coil stock which is strong but it will dent. Make sure that you use copper nails. I would get ring shank nails. I believe that swan secure sells copper nails.
Are you bending your trim too? Sounds like a cool project. Hope it works out for you.