In my area Corian is dying. It has become the Formica of the new millenium. Granite has become competive in price (sometimes even less $$). One large kitchen design outfit has already sold their Corian unit.
I think it looks cheap. Like pergo….at waist level.
Ditch
Engineered-stone shower panels are waterproof, but proper installation relies on tight seams and silicone sealing.
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Replies
I have to say I disagree. I have always liked the looks of it, with the exception of the stuff with flecks in it. And the durability is great.
It's plastic.Ditch
So's your dashboard in your pickup, your car's bumpers, the gaskets in your doors, probably all your DVW piping, your wiring's insulation, the vent chutes in the attic, yadda, yadda, yadda. But I will agree that DuPont was wrong when they tried to make it look like stone by adding the flecks. I like it best in a solid color. It is durable, long lasting, and renewable, in that the surface can be reworked with abrasives and polish to look new.
I, for one, hope that corian HAS peaked. Now maybe it will come within the price range of "everyman".
The first time I saw it used, and heard the price, I said, "but but but but... it's just plastic !!"
I think it is a perfect product for the use. I like it. I just don't think it should be priced like it was made in a gold-lined form or something. I do hope that it will start to become available for a more reasonable price.
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
My wife (who sells stone) can usually compete with solid surface and occasionally beat Corian prices.
There's a lot of competition in the slab business. Stone is less today than it was 5 years ago.
Ditch
Your wife is in the stone business so you have a conflict of interest here. :)
I disagree with the statement "Corian has peaked", when did it ever get up there?
Never liked Corian since day one, especially when they told me the price. I have seen a French Provencal kitchen done in Corian in soild off white color, with fluted pilasters flanking the sides of the the stove quarter, backslash and other details, very nicely done. Looked like marble but when you touch it it's warm. I don't like it when something that causes you senses to contradict.
Does it really cost that much to make the stuff? Or do they just tag on a ridiculous markup to make up for the low volume of sales?
Do you have those pics for stone fabrication? Like to see them.
I agree, I thought it looked dated years ago! Of course, we will have laminate because we're out of money LOL! I love granite. I still think laminate looks better than corian. Someday we'll upgrade our countertops, but for now, laminate works and with over 30 ft of countertop, it didn't cost 5K!
What do you think about 6" tile, maybe with a few discrete accents on the backsplashes and a really fine grout line?
That is what we have now on a light tan tile with light hues, without any accents, are happy with and are thinking for our new house.
Thanks for the information on Corian.
I agree about the Corian, and recommend my customers to go for granite.
John
Perhaps I am the only person in the world who doesn't like granite counters? I have never seen one that I would want in my kitchen, so can't imagine spending the money on it. If I could choose without regard to maintenance, I'd pick wood. If it weren't black, I'd pick soapstone. If I didn't have a budget, I'd pick solid surface. As it is I am stuck with laminate. Though I'm thinking about copper. I'd like a copper counter but not sure about how to install.
If I didn't have a budget, I'd pick solid surface.
It's plastic.Ditch
'Splain why plastic is a bad thing for a countertop? I get it when it comes to Pergo on the floor. But what's the time honored "correct" stuff to make a countertop from the way wood, tile, concrete, etc., are the correct thing to make floors from instead of Pergo?"Our whole American way of life is a great war of ideas, and librarians are the arms dealers selling weapons to both sides."-James Quinn
I'm a big fan of soapstone but will probably attemp a Fu-Tung Cheng style concrete masterpice for the house we are building right now... just to see if I can pull it off.
There is an unwritten rule that if you are an aspiring architect you must have a certain amount of exposed concrete and steel in your house. I figure it will be a nice substrate for a tileover if I mess it up too bad. :-)>
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Edited 10/6/2003 8:45:31 PM ET by Wrecked Angle
Have any idea the cost of "Fu-Tung Cheng style concrete masterpice" compared to Corian or granite? Interested to know.
Tom
Material costs are less but a finished install by a qualified contractor will actually cost more 9 times out of 10. It is a very labor intensive process.
... but it is beautiful and extremely versatile - depending on your perspective of course.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
>>... but it is beautiful and extremely versatile - depending on your perspective of course.
I am talking to myself here. O.K., Corian and concrete tops are both man made. Ingredients are mixed together, set by a chemical process, much similarities between the two. If we take a vote, I bet we have a lot more people going for concrete. So there must be more to Corian than "it's just plastic" that people don't care about.
May be, just may be... as you said "depending on your perspective of course"
Tom
an unwritten rule that if you are an aspiring architect you must have a certain amount of
And no window treatments.
And at least one material-to-material joint that causes all contractors to scratch their heads in dismay . . .
Course, my fave is still a parade-of-home house in Austin just shy of a decade ago. Nifty brick wall with an arch for the 6 burner commercial cooktop. By itself, no big deal. What made it unique was the counter top--edge-laid veneer brick. (No idea what the substrate was under that, the drawer banks didn't allow for much "peeking" underneath.)
Ooh, almost forgot, can make PA unless you have water running into and out of the house, too (the better to rust the steel, doncha know . . . )
To those who like granite, I have to ask: do you ever do any baking? How do you roll out pastry and cookies? How do you knead bread?
Why would you think there would be a problem kneading dough on granite? I have Blue Pearl, and my wife has rolled out lots of pastry dough and kneaded bread for years with no problem. We've also have never required any sealing nor have experienced any stains or discoloration.That said, I like Corian on bathroom lavs because you can get a waterproof coved backsplash.
You can get that in granite, too, if you're willing to pay for it.
Ooh, almost forgot, can make PA unless you have water running into and out of the house, too
Does indoor plumbing count? :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Does indoor plumbing count?
Not in the pages of Progressive Architecture--unless it was totally unusable by the residents within . . .
There was a PA house that had a water feature running through the entire house (pump on one side, catch basin on the other). Second owners of the house got a little tired of the 6" gap betwen the plate glass & the water surface (no so much the leaves & debris, or the drafts, so much as the squirrels & raccoons loose inside). Dug the floors up to recirculate the water in the back only, inside thehouse only, and n the front yards only. The plate glass was run down to the bottom of the water feature and sealed up tight.
Needles to say, the renovation did not make PA . . .
I just put in soapstone countertop for my kitchen and everyone who sees it is impressed, when it is oiled. The shiny black look doesn't last two days, however. It has been about 3 weeks since installation. I haven't oiled regularly because we are using the kitchen and there are pots and plates on it all the time. If I oiled the stone about once a week, how long would it take for the stone to permanently retain the gloss? Thank you.
I don't have an answer for you there but, to me, one of the beauties of soapstone is the natural matte finish. The slight texture of a matte finish creates more "energy" in the nerve endings of your finger when you run your hand across it. It actually creates more "energy" when you run your eye across it too so it ultimately looks and feels much softer and warmer than polished granite.
I like a low maintenance finish that is more likely to be seen in nature. The high gloss inherent in most stone counters is only observed in nature when a thin layer of water covers the stone. That said, I think the subtleties of the fines and grain in harder stones and concrete are more apparent when they are polished to a high sheen, so for those materials, I would probably choose a bit more gloss.
My personal preference is hardly the ultimate answer to the question you asked but maybe it will help you find a little more peace in the tranquil softness of the soapstone until it reaches the patina you are looking for.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I agree.
You take a big chunk of granite. You saw it into even thicknes. Then you cut it to shape. You grind profiles on the edge. You grind, hone, and polish the surface. Then you slather on a sealer, to keep it "natural".
For the solid surface you mine a filler (I think that it is natural alumnim oxide, but don't remember for sure). You pump out oil and process it to form the resins. Then you mix it all together and cast it.
Now if some one can show me a quarry where the remove pieces of granit 30"*60" all polished then I will listen to them calling it NATURAL.
MANUFACTURED QUARTZ
Is any body seeing any of the manufactured quartz counter tops. (Silestone, Ceaserstone, Cambria, Zodiac).
I see it advertisted, but never see it mentioned when this subject comes up.
Probably due to mfg quartz occupying about the same "niche" as cultured marble. The only way to run the shop profitably is to turn out "standardized" sizes. That tends to lock you into the big box KD & preassembled cabinetry. Not exactly a "high glamor" market.
Cultured Marble might not pass Ditch's test, it's real mable dust in a clear acrylic matrix.
The local cultured marble outfit will customize, but anything much beyond a banjo top, or combining different lav bowls with custom counter tops gets back into the "expenssive" conter top range pretty quick. I imagine that the mfg quartz would be similar.
snif, snif,
,
,
,
don't care whut yo'all say, still like formica.
still like formica
Hey, me too--no better way to get a one piece full-height splash & counter top. I also like bein able to add banding, or other fancy edges without busting the budget.
As someone who cooks, I like stone around the cooktop, and an impervious surface around the sink--but also wood or metal for the "look" of it. I, personally, like my cutting and pastry surfaces to be bth portable, and deliveralbe to the sink for washing. Now, some of that also comes fom the certain knowledge that all hands in the house will wind up in the kitchen, and most will want to help.
Manufactured quartz is nothing like cultered marble. It is produced is slabs and then cut and finished tools similar to "natural" stone.
Manufactured quartz fooled me. I saw it at DW's showroom. When I commented that it looked "real", I was chastised by the guys in the shop.....it still looks "real" to me.Ditch
I find it hard to believe anyone loves stone more than me.
But everything has it's place.
I prefer Corian because of the seamless sink lines. I believe Corian is less of a contaminable surface (although someone may have proof to argue that point) than Granite and especially other stones like slate or concrete.
My kitchen now has granite. The last had Corian. I love the look of granite, but find the joints between slabs unsightly.
You object to Plastic?
My wife's implants are plastic. I much prefer those to stone anyday.
Ditch - Hey, Corvettes are plastic and I wouldn't turn one down because of it...
Info on Torrazzo: http://www.ntma.com/02__terrazzo_info.php
I also like the idea of stone around the cooking area, but what I really would like to see is something like a rubber counter surface around the sink so I won't break all my dishes when I drop them (who me, klutzy?).
I don't see a need to have all counters of the same stuff. (Of course, I am a bit outside the normal curve in this disregard - for my "formal" dinner ware, each place setting is totally different.) I like the kitchens that have a section of butcher block, another section of granite, and whatever.
Mongo - On that cooling coil, what did you use? Just cold water running through it or did you get a small refrigeration unit and replumb the cooling section?
There have been a couple of votes for Formica, but I don't recall anyone praising the solid color laminates (Wilsonart?). Is the extra performance of the solid color laminates worth the price over standard Formica?
(Guess I need to be careful of the terminology here as Formica now has solid surface materials as does Wilsonart... So, Formica Plastic Laminate and Wilsonart Solid Color Laminate - does that do it?)
Re: a rubber countertop...that's why I like Teak or another wood that can handle water. Just enough give to prevent the little oops from turning into big OOPS!
The first time I did it I used a cooling coil from a dehumidifier. One of those head-scratcher ideas...wouldn't this be cool (no pun intended)...and I had an old dehumidifier...a sacrifice to the kitchen gods.
Casey,
Thanks for the Terrazzo link. It qualifies as a "natural" material. Especially in cementitious form with rare minerals. And it's art. And it's ancient.
Dupont did a great job at marketing this stuff to high end cabinet shops. Because it was expensive, and limited 10 years ago, people building fancy new homes thought they had to have it. The "upgrade" was typically stone on the island.
There is one thing that solid surface and granite have in common: Both were once in a liquid state.
Ditch
Edited 10/8/2003 6:49:02 AM ET by luvditchburns
We have solid surface for the countertops, and a 3x6 island with maple butcher block. Each has its place, and I like the undermounted sink w/ the solid surface, I like the look. Each to his own, I guess. I've seen a few countertops in granite tile, but I can't imagine using it much, food would be in the grout lines. I love to cook, but I'm not the neatest person in the kitchen. Concrete is cool, I'd consider that some day.
Getting ready to do my first concrete countertops. Did Fu Tung Chengs workshop and can't wait. Will be putting them in a fixer-upper we just got. That way if they don't turn out like I want.....don't have to look at them long. he he.....Will have to learn to post pics. Beck
Yes, please do post pics and tell us how it goes. I'm planning on making my own concrete counters for my place this spring.
Andy
He has frequent workshops in Berkeley,and I think his website has dates listed. His "workshop" location,(different than his working shop) is behind his Chinese Tea tasting room which showcases some of his amazing work, some of which is in his book. Interestingly enough, he comes for about an hour during the class, and as you taste tea in his store, he talks about his love of concrete and what he does, then it's back to class and he jets off to far off places and creates.
As for the class, it's only one day long, (a bit pricey at 500.00) and at the risk of catching some flak here, it is a pretty low-tech process, not too many tools, (unfortunately) and seems very do-able. And thanks to your suggestion if things go south, tossing them off the porch to then become an integral part of the landscaping is not a bad idea....
Whereas the process itself seems do-able, the part I will most likely have trouble with, (besides lifting them into place) is the creative process, as it seems that the sky is the limit....and that's the part I so look foreward to overcoming. We closed escrow today on the fixer, and need to jump on a few things first before I start the counters. The great thing is after making the forms and pouring, they sit for about 3 weeks in the garage, setting, so the process doesn't get in the way of everything else. Great for going into a customers home only to measure for template, then installing,and not having a kitchen ripped up for but a day for install. Hmm...to think.....not having a client underfoot for days on end, sounds pretty good.
Better underfoot than wanting to help "do something". ;)
Jen
Basic concrete countertops are about as low-tech as you can get. Who could agrue with portland, sand, stone, and a bit of reinforcement?
Were you to ever come over my house and look down right before you came up my back stairs, you'd see my one and only screw-up. A little cream leaked out of the form and left about 2-3" or roughness in the corner of the slab. Not good enough as a desktop, but plenty good as a great stepping stone.
Have fun and feel free to email if you have any Q's.
Bill -
Just ordered Zodiac for our kitchen. Liked the stone type appearance, no maintenance, 10 year warranty and a bit less expensive than granite. But as you said, no one is mentioning it. Anyone have any feedback on quartz countertops?
"Fu Tung Cheng style masterpiece..."
Buy his book.
Follow the directions.
Post pictures!
I'm too chicken to try one, but then again, life is too short not to take chances...
Jen
It's Plastic.Ditch
Yup, it's plastic, very expensive plastic. But, so is a lot of carpet, and I don't see everybody rushing to condemn it. You can now pay as much for a soft textured, high twist, very cleanable plastic carpet as you would pay for wool. My house is filled with manmade items (the tile floor, the plywood cabinets, the porcelain throne). I'm OK with one more, one where I can specify the exact color that I want, it can be routed to a beautiful shape without diamond blades, and doesn't have the cracking and staining issues of many natural materials. I agree that you are right - Corian is not as popular as it once was. But I also wanted to show that some people like me would pick it over granite. But for me it is all a moot issue, I can't afford either one and would rather spend the bucks on really nice cabinetry that is so gorgeous nobody notices the countertop (which in my house is covered with an assortment of mail, fruit, and dirty dishes anyway).
Again, I do agree that Corian has peaked. In another century only the very wealthy had linoleum in their homes, and I believe that Corian may go the same route. But, some people still prefer a nice forgiving linoleum floor to a cold tile one, and some people will continue to prefer solid surface to granite (or tile or stainless steel or ...)
I find that it looks like plastic, and that is probably what luvditch means. I really am offended by its appearance and never understood why it became so sought after.
I can't afford either one and would rather spend the bucks on really nice cabinetry that is so gorgeous nobody notices the countertop.
If you spend enough money on cabinets to jaw drop folks....ya gotta finish the tops right. Only real stone....or a multitude of other natural materials.....concrete and terrazzo included would be better suited.
But not plastic....
Ditch
Hey Ditch,
I was wondering, what is Corian made of?View Image
Plastic.Ditch
I agree it has peaked because the yuppies around here are ripping it out and installing Granite.
BIG MISTAKE! as far as I'm concerned.
Cold Hard Granite that shows every finger print, with a lovely Stainless tinny sink.
You can have the rock I'll take the plastic.
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Corian is about 70% crushed rock (alumina trihydrate) and 30% Acrylic resin. They are still selling more every year; more 10 miles a day 365 days a year. 10 years ago they only sold about 1.5 miles a day. Every finish you put on wood can be considered plastic. It replaces ivory in musical instruments and pistol grips saving elephants. They are now covering skyscrapers in the stuff. When used properly it is cheaper than wood.
I hope this helps
Ken
I'm showing my ignorance here. Isn't the substrate for terrazo epoxy? To me terrazo has always looked like plastic. I find it interesting that you include that in the list of 'natural materials'.
As for spending a lot of money on cabinets - it will all be in the materials. I've been knocking boots with the cabinetmaker for years and so I get my cabinets built free ;> But, like I said, I will probably have plastic on top of them in the form of laminate, unless I can work out the copper thing.
I agree...but 'tastes' are cyclical. that's probably a poor way to put it. Fads are cyclical.
Formica is everyday, every budget.
Solid-surface, corian, etc...took it up a a notch. The "new" material, no seams, many colors, sleek, streamlined. Still, I never understood the fascination with it, as it is relatively delicate, even though dents/burns/etc can be sanded out. And the price!
Ganite USED to be scarce, and pricey. Totally high-end. Not any more. Prices have plunged, and now it's the everyday material. I never did like granite as a whole, first due to some of the wild veining out there, second because I never understood the fascination with having a glossy countertop. I have seen honed granite in a few colors that looked nice. Very few.
Tile? I've never seen a tiled countertop that I liked. And as a cook, I can't imagine one being practical.
Soapstone is fabulous.
Slate is great.
Wood is warm and welcoming, though it has to be the right wood. I've got a delivery of 210 bdft of 8/4 teak coming in Thursday. Trying something different with this batch.
Concrete? An amazing material...versatile...liquid stone. Misunderstood by many, and that's great. Quite often concrete goes for more than granite. Has its shortcomings and has its strengths, but if you have a working kitchen and you're someone who actually cooks, it's a great material. whatever texture, visual or tactile, you can have it. Classical or contemporary, you can have it. Canary yellow or Soapstone black, you can have it.
Someone asked about baking/pastry. I cast a cooling coil into a concrete countertop. Chilled the top to make working with pastry a bit easier.
From the architectural foo-foo point-of-view? I cast fiberoptics into concrete. Hitched up to a light box with a randon generator, the countertop "twinkles like the night sky" which was the end goal in that fabrication. When first proposed I thought how absa-frickin-lootley hokey, but when done...absolutely amazing effect. The top was alive!
Countertops should be made for abuse. They are not to be considered a shrine. Like the floor in the mudroom, they should be able to take abuse and the homeowner should be willing to abuse them. Countertops are working surfaces and should be thought of as such.
There's always a tradeoff between the aesthetic and practicality. Some stagnate at one end of the scale, others at the other end. There is a happy medium, and that spot on the scale has to be defined by the person using the kitchen.
Looks vs Use vs Durability vs Price.
The thing that really appeals to me about concrete is the ability to cast in several different surfaces to meet specific needs while maximizing the artistic potential of the media. A little hardwood block here for cutting, a little stainless steel there for setting hot pans, a little granite over there for pastry work and a nice gentle curve or two to tie it all beautifully together in one organic form. The concrete becomes the binder linking the work stations together. Nothing is more versatile.
Sure you can slap a cutting board, pastry slab and trivet on any old formica surface to achive the same versatility but it's hardly art.
Casting the stair treads, hearth and a few accents in the same concrete as the counter tops effectively unifies the whole house. It's not too difficult to get carried away and over do it though.
If I use the concrete I will almost certainly start with the stair treads and work my way through the learning curve with progressively larger pieces.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Very well put.
I have seen marble bathroom tops illuminated from below with florescent lights. Awesome!
Maybe the prettiest tops I've ever seen were Terrazzo, in a 1920's Tudor. The floor and tops were the same. This was a working kitchen...like in servants......with the bells all over the house and the bell in the floor at the head table in the D.R.Ditch
Nobody's mentioned stainless steel. I've got a SS top in a portion of my kitchen and it's tougher than granite, concrete, or any other of the current fad tops being discussed.
Commercial kitchens use SS for it's durability and ease of cleaning.
Be sure that you use 16 ga 304 brushed. Welds are invisible.
Use 22 ga for backsplashes too.
Can't beat it...
Hey, I did mention stainless steel as an integrated surface with concrete. The two compliment each other well. Especially when other stainless surfaces are moderately incorporated into the design.
You would think that stainless would stand out like a sore thumb, feel cold and commercial and generally take the warmth out of a space. Used in excess it does all of that but when it is blended with "warmer" and more vibrant materials in a complete design it actually reflects the warmth and vibrancy of the surfaces around it creating a very dynamically "alive" space.
It's kind of like accenting with black - too much and the space is cold and impersonal but used in moderation it can make the whole scheme pop to life like Disneyland on the fourth of July.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
When I asked friends here about sinks and countertops, the had all kinds of ideas and preferences but all said no to stainless steel as a practical solution.
The ones that had it didn't liked it, one had remodeled and took it out.
All agreed that it was too hard to clean well to get streaks and spots off and keep it that way. Another mentioned that all in the house learned to use paper plates for snacks and go to the bathrooms to wash their hands so as to avoid spotting the kitchen sink and hear her complain about it. Our water is heavy with calcium and that may be why it spots more than others may.
In a commercial kitchen, that may not be an issue as it is not seen when not in use and it definitely is one of the more hygienic surfaces used for countertops today.
I would spec brushed over polished in any stainless application for the very reasons you mentioned. Again with the texture thing, the brushed stainless has a lot more "energy" than the high sheen polished stuff and it looks more natural.
It's hard to imagine how warm and inviting a colored concrete counter and stainless steel combination can feel, especially combined with a natural wood, but a brushed metal surface can defy all stereotypical logic. Brushed also hides dents, water spots and stains masterfully and you don't have to see an accurate reflection of yourself before coffee every morning.
Any polished stainless that gets used much at all is going to have a brushed finish before long anyway. You might as well start out like you wanted it that way.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
When I remodeled I put it in. It's no problem to keep clean, provided you have the brushed finish. Just use Barkeepers Friend, Scotchbrite, or some other slightly abrasive cleaner to remove scratches, spots, etc. There's many SS cleaning creams out too that leave a protective finish to minimize spotting.
You can't beat it for a backsplash. No grout to scrub like tile.
I've reviewed charts comparing most of the countertop materials for durability and usuage. I can't find one that is useful. I don't want one that chips or cracks. I don't want to have to oil or seal it regularly. I don't want to chase fingerprings or smears. I don't like cleaning cake batter and crumbs from grout lines. I read that heat resistant Corion and butcherblock can still be ruined, so they need hot mats. Concrete is cut proof, but it will damage the knife, so a cutting board is still needed. I'm most interested in function and value, even tho I like the look of the 3D types of stone and pseodostone, I can't see spending big bucks for it. I can't find a surface that can hold-up to any temperature of hot pan, be cut upon without damaging knifes, not chip or crack if I knock a can of beans off of the shelf onto it, and not show every crumb or splash. I'll have to use laminate. Like all the other options, I'll still need to use hot mats and cutting boards. I have it now. It does stain, but even grape juice fades within a week. We are over budjet, so will use a ready to go/ off the shelf item that we found a Lowes. It is a 10 ft length of laminent for $ 80.00. The nice thing about this price is that if it gets too bad looking, we can just inscrew it, lift it off, and drop in another piece.
There's nothing that forces you to choose one type of counter for your entire kitchen. One new trend these days is to mix counter surfaces so you can have the best of all worlds.
Right - and nothing ties them all together as easily and effectively as concrete. :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Plastic as you may see it to be, however it is made proudly in the USA by hard working blue collar workers at the dupont plant in Buffalo. I will most certainly agree that it is highly overpriced but so is natural gas.
On the lines of plastic, the invasion is on. I am seeing more and more vinyl fences and porch rails and balusters than wood lately. How about vinyl siding, even on the very high end of new home construction vinyl is almost always present.
Even Mike Guertin has incorporated pvc into all the deck footings and piers that he builds.
And lets not forget the most important plastic of them all "credit cards"
Ciao,
The Sicilian
How about vinyl siding, even on the very high end of new home construction vinyl is almost always present.
Many high end communities ban vinyl siding. I live on a golf course. The golf course lots had fairly stringent convenants. Along with above ground pools, play sets, and clothes lines, vinyl siding was clearly listed as not approved.
I have seen more of a return to older building styles in high end developments I work in. Quoined corners in limestone, copper flashing, gutters and spouts, keys over all the windows and doors, wrought iron balustrades......
I started this post as "Corian has Peaked". Maybe I should title it "Crappy over priced stuff has peaked".
Ditch
Ditch ...Ditch ... Ditch
You can do everything with Corian that you can with wood except burn it. You can do it faster and better. If used for a small box, cabinet, guitar, or coffee table it is cheaper than wood. It is cheaper than free wood. It saves that much time for the value it affords. DuPont may not be seeing double digit increases in sales for countertops but the other markets for other products like skid plates for Formula One cars or pistol grips and knife handles.(high end only) is more than making up for it. Fender made guitars out of it, they are currently valued at over $100,000 because they are among the best sounding guitars they ever made. Baccarat Crystal is using it for the foot of a new line of high end crystal. Some Corian pens retail for $175.00. We have one customer who cannot retire at 75 because the money is too good. Lastly I offer you fine art
http://www.babbart.com/Preview%20Gallery.htm
Wander around in this site for a while.
I don't think you have seen the beginning of Corian and other solid surface in the market place.
Respectfully submitted
Ken Dolph
Ken,
You're right.
As usual these posts branch off in tangents. I'm as guilty as any....but that's half the fun of it.
I'm aware of the advantages of solid surface.....and Formica...and vinyl siding...and cast stone...and fiberglass slate shingles....yada..
I posted that it was looking like solid surface has peaked.
When considering the cost of solid surface, as applied to kitchen counters only, the upsell to more interesting products isn't that much in dollars $$.
Ditch
OK Ditch, Here's my two cents worth.
We have been through 3 I say 3 kitchen remodels since we have lived here.
We have gone from formica to tile back to formica and lastly Corian.
We Love our Corian and feel sorry for anyone that drops a plate on granite.
Here is a shot of our kitchen and believe me if the wife ever wants to upgrade? to granite, we will be moving cause I'm through remodeling this old house.
I've just trimed out the kitchen,dinnig room and entry because we had hardwood floors put in, 4th time and last for trimwork.
Here's a shot of the kitchen before the hardwood floors.
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Pro, does your vent that far above the cooktop handle all of the cooking fumes and odors? Also, very nice picture and nice looking kitchen.
Jen, Jen, tell me it isn't so......I didn't think you were frightened of anything! My bubble is busted.....
I will be starting my first concrete counters soon, I took fu tung chengs workshop a few months ago so we'll see if I got my money's worth out of him. Figure the worst part will be if they don't turn out and I have to haul them away.....(2nd story kitchen)
Where did you have the good fortune to find a workshop? Someone here had posted a link to some clips of him demonstrating the technique...he seems like a pretty fun guy, and his complete enthusiasm and belief in the concept is inspiring and motivational. That's what we need, more motivational speakers for construction workers!
You're right...it's time to "break out of the mold" and try it. Something small scale at first, a top for our drawer unit in the bathroom.
Post picture of your work...
2cd story kitchen? Just throw em out the window...;)
Jen
Whatever works...
The vent above my cooktop will suck the hair off the top of your head. It is a Euro style that I put in because I wanted something that would look good from below while sitting in the dining room, and something that would not hang down too much to block the view between the two rooms.
Here is a shot of it open/on and closed/off positions.
Plus a shot of the trimwork I've been doing.
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Edited 10/10/2003 6:30:21 PM ET by Pro-Dek
> Though I'm thinking about copper. I'd like a copper counter but not sure about how to install.
Some friends of mine had copper. Despite constant cleaning, it always looked like crap. Every fingerprint or condensation ring from a glass or scrap of food that touched it would make a stain in a matter of minutes. I love copper for roofing, flashings, plumbing, etc. But it isn't for places where it gets touched a lot.
-- J.S.
Ditch
Have to agree with you.
I have a friend who does the stuff, doesnt even have it in his own house. Never did like the stuff, I'm building a new kitchen for my mother, shes getting soapstone(wheather she likes it or not).
Doug
getting soapstone
I've been hearing prices about half that for soapstone, down around Austin way, if more so towards San Antonio. Have you seen that? I've also heard that several colors are available, too--no Henry Ford choice of any color, so long as it's black.
The cultured marble folks I know are talking about a new adhesive that may permit bonding soapstone to soapstone, allowing for more seamless intallations. But, they may be ahead of the curve a bit.
Cap
Since I've been here in Tx I havnt see any soapstone, I didnt know that it was used around here.
I am getting some for my moms kitchen at a wholesaler in Chicago sometime this winter.
I'll have to look into it though. I would like it in my own home. Not sure I want to haul it from Chicago though.
Doug
havnt see any soapstone, I didnt know that it was used around here
Probably a bit more common towards Fredricksberg way. The quarries in S.A. have got plenty available is what I'm hearing. Multiple colors too, traditional blonde & black, but also a moss green and a pale blue.
May just need checking under stone suppliers. Hate to think you had to ship from chicago (unless the price was right).
Cap
Not shipping from Chicago to Tx. I have a house in Iowa that my mother lives in, thats where I would use it. But if its available down here I might use it in a house here.
Doug
I don't ever care what a client picks, but I do like how the solid surface takes a curve, and that's often my main criterion. I've had formica and wood before, brother has tile, and bil has granite. I'd pick the Avonite solid surface I have now over any of those...well, I guess I did, but I'd do it again. Granite can be purty, of course, but the way my bil and sil kept chasing around after us in the kitchen to make sure we didn't set anything down that would leave a ring convinced me it was too much worry for my house. My Blue Pearl Avonite looks a whole lot like the Blue Pearl granite floor tile I use elsewhere, and nothing like Pergo.
job's I've been on here... most go with granite.
especially after checking the prices.
Just last night .... once again .... I told Cath .... "it's plastic!"
Not that plastic might not be the greatest think for kitchens since.... stone?
But plastic at that price?
Gimme a break.
Expensive plastic.
Stone .... I can understand the cost.
Not like some guys in a corian quary theying to drill out the perfect slab.
BTW ... just got a fantastic bid back from my hopefully new granite guy.... after the HO getting an outragous price from the stone shop he first went to.
Thinking I just saved the day ... even after my mark up!
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I like granite but my uncle runs granite incorporated in Aberdeen SD.
In searching for something a bit off the beaten path, I initially looked at soapstone. My lifemate was unimpressed; too dark. I was shocked; too expensive. She wanted Corian/solid surface (read light colored). I found a stone yard here in Seattle with acres of various types of stone. Found a very, very dense sandstone suitable for countertop use called Pietra Cardosa from Brazil. I says to the kitchen boss, I'll get a quote on solid surface .... it was a grand more than the stone altough the price of the stone was the raw material. Given the cost of cutting and in-place fabrication, the stone will probably end up somewhat more than the 'plastic' stuff but in my opinion I'll have a better kitchen.
Sure, I'll have to seal the stone and probably have to live with a few stains after a few years of use. But I like natural materials when and where I get the opportunity to use them.
Is ceramic tile a 'natural' material? I think so, in some ways. It's manufactured from clay, fired in a kiln and is indeed a manufactured product. None the less, I liken it to brick or other man-made building products that are produced from earthen-like materials rather than distilled from some petroleum base, perhaps. However, I suspect we should defer to anyone with more knowledge about chemistry before we cast aspersions on acrylic polymers as being "plastic", which is actually what DuPont Corian is composed of.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I like solid surface (and I'm a fabricator;not doing too much now though).....also like granite (not so much the new cheap Chinese and Brazilian stuff I'm seeing, but ....and here it's only competitive with solid surface if you go with a thin slab. I do know one deigner who likes 3/4" tops...I don't).
Solid surface is now the number one choice for countertops, by a fair margin (don't have the number in front of me now....Kitchen and Bath Design News )....and it's still gaining market share, so I don't think you can say it's peaked. As far as Corian specifically (and some of the other brands too), one of the dumbest things they did was set up their own fab shops in many places, which are competing directly with the fabrication shops that are buying the material from them...ugly.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I like solid surface (and I'm a fabricator;not doing too much now though).....
Adrian-
Are there any solid surface materials a do-it-yourselfer can buy? I'd like to try it but can't find anyone that will sell it to me.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Depends on the brand, the region, and the practices of the local distributor. I had a good bit of experience in other shops before I certified (which was a good thing to do; certified on a brand other than Corian), and i haven't had any trouble buying anything I want....excpet Corian. And I could buy that, for commerical, but not for residential. Some companies will let you sell a job, then come take you through the process as you fab the countertop. different practices everywhere. I don't know of any that would sell to a DIY though; it's part of their job to keep the quality up, and make sure only people that they know are qualified to use the product, can get it....and that pretty much means people in the trades. May not seem fair, but it makes sense to me. Sometimes people who aren't aware of what is covered in a certification course don't appreciate the number of potentially disastrous mistakes that could be made if you don't know the rules.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Actually you can by Corian for DIY usage and DuPont even advertises it for that purpose.
But you are limited in size so that you can't use for counter tops.
To make counter cold enough to roll pastry or temper chocolate, someone in Cooks' Talk mentioned doing the following to their cart:
A 4 wheeled kitchen cart w/marble top. Underneath marble top a drawer was installed that was lined w/metal. Whenever pastry dough was rolled, the drawer was filled w/dry ice. Voila, really cool marble. I would think this would also work for chocolate (tempering and making truffles).
This jobless recovery has done more to promote the consumption of exquisite chocolate than the finest chocolatier. Cost be damned.
Bill,When I looked into Corian for our re-do, I found that all bids were going to same installer, and only diff in price was store mark-up. I was trying to secure the scrap pieces, got general run around.
Finally found a company that had been "grand fathered in" to be an installer, before the protected zone thing hit.
He wasn't the cheapest nor highest, and I liked his style. He actually came to the job, and followed up after. Also, saved all scrap(stove and sink cutouts and side trim)and gave me a couple of tubes of the color correct epoxy.
I made a micro-wave table to match the counter, and a large trivet (28x18) to sit where groceries, canned goods etc are unloaded.(I had no wear/scratch experience with Corian)
I asked him a few days ago if I could purchase full size sheets (30x145), and he said," yes, at his cost plus 20%". That puts a full sheet of 1/2" thickness in the $800-900 range, but, it is a full sheet for those with property at Ft Knox.Energy Consultant and author of
Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
Obviously, I'm talking about sheets, not offcuts...I know they sell those little pieces, but they restrict the sale of sheets that would get used in a countertop. And getting adhesive if you need it and if you're not a a fabricator, is an issue with some companies. In theory, I can buy Corian for commercial work (no Dupont warranty applies), but if I was only looking for 2-4 sheets, they would make me show them the prints to verify that it wasn't going in to a residential job.
The situation Paul Hayden describes below, with a fabricator offering to sell a sheet to a non-fabricator....all I can say to that is, if Corian knew he was doing that, from what I know he would have his certification revoked immediately (it happens; I know someone that happened to). There is a black market among fabricators, but I've never heard of anyone selling it outsde the fabricator community.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Sounds like corian has been taking lessons from de beers.
Next heard: it is custom to spend at least 3 months gross salary on the counter top...
Can't we all just get a log ? - Paul Bunyon
Quittin' Time
Excuse the off topic.
Adrian, I just stopped in from that cruise ship to visit your beautiful town. You guys have something really nice up here.
But what the heck are these operators thinking by having these boats stop in on Sundays when all the shops are closed?
I'm really impressed with the volunteers all over town. Everyone seems to want to be such gracious hosts and hostesses. And I'm on a free internet access site writing this! You'd never see this type of hospitality in the states.
I believe Canadians are the nicest people in the world. You are one lucky guy.
Thanks for showing us how to live.
Thanks very much; you are talking about Sydney and the QE 2? Cape Breton is pretty beautiful, but you don't often hear Sydney described that way.
The Sunday shopping thing: subject of much debate right now. Some want it, some hate it. hard to know how it will play out.
Anyway, come back anytime....we're just going into the fall foliage extravaganza, and Celtic Colours, one of the biggest Celtic mucic festivals in the world, is going on in little towns all over the island. Rated the number 1 cultural event in Canada according a touring assoc. in the U.S, and other simialr accolades.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Talk to some installers and see what they like. If you screw up on the temp (of most solid surface materials) you can repair it in the field. If the shop screws up on granite, it goes back to the shop.
True, stone tops are more durable, laminate is cheaper, but stone is much, much heavier. So where will HD sell their cheap cabs?
Wouldn't be dying if they'd smart up about their pricing. It's a product that functions well, and n many ways performs better than granite. But when granite is what peole want now, at the same price as Corian, then the only card Corian has to plaly is to cut their absurd prices.
Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
I just installed a Silestone (95% Quartz and 5% resin) counter top in my kitchen and I get tons of compliments on it And! It's non-porous and no maintenance. Gotta like that. I'm surprised I saw no other mention of Silestone in this thread. I guess it's not too popular. Priced about the same as granite. Luckily I have ony 11 linear feet of counter space, including the sink.
I agree that Corian is to expensive for being moulded plastic and it does llok cheap.
Really does seem is if the stuff has gone out of style.
The pricing on this stuff remains absurd, even as the direct competition has heated up, and the market is offering up more choices.
Their margins must be incredible.
'Iron fisted' supply chain with 'authorized' installers and such further distorts the market and keeps prices high.
Want to buy a small piece for a table top, or a simple island? Are you an 'authorized installer'? Well, no, but I really do know how to use a router and even epoxy...
Tough luck pal!... You're not our 'sort' of customer!
Not worth the hassle. Forget it...
Steve -
Let me ask again - is there actually any particular advantage to the laminate that has the color throughout the laminate rather than just on the top surface? I understand that the laminate with the color throughout is somewhat more expensive and I wondered if, in practice, the extra expense is justified.
any particular advantage to the laminate that has the color throughout
Not to put wordds in Steve's mouth, but the 'solid' laminate will not show a black 'line' if its edge is exposed.
One application I was experimenting with was using the thin material like laminate, and matching the thicker soild surface pieces to it. Using a 1 1/2 x 5/8" stick as a band, the top edge could be rabbetted to take the flat sheet, and the resulting half lap gued up continuously. A 4" wide band could also be rabbetted as a backsplash. Hung an undermount sink from some 1 1/2 x 5/8 made up into the sink opening, with the underlayment rabbetted out to match. Way more work than a traditional laminate top, much less than a full solid surface installation. But, did get to use a round-over bit to make a nice matching profile on the edgeband, the backsplash, and the lip of the sink. Might do it again, might not--there was a lot of extra labor in the small project.
OK, let me push it a little further. If one doesn't have the edge showing, is there still an advantage to justify the added expense?
Can the color-impregnated-throughout-the-laminate (what is the best term here? solid color laminate?) be repaired of small cuts, scratches, etc. Can surface stains be sanded out, etc.?
is there still an advantage
Push away-- :-)
The only advantages are the ones you mention, you're getting a very thin version of a solid surface top, so all that applies to the one applies to the other. Now, if your situation exposes none of the "flaws" of plastic laminate, there's not going to be much differenc to the end user. Other than cost. I've seem laminate stand up to college kids in apartments, so toughness is not really an issue. Now, if you are matching other solid surface items, or you are using fancy trim, then you have a case. The color selection in plastic laminate is just too wide--which limits the "competition," is you will.
Now, you could make a case for the solid laminate as being "upscale" and therefore worth more; you just don't have any more markup if you do. (Which then begs the question of: How much is the "impression of value" worth?)
ive never used that type of laminate, it is much more expensivecaulking is not a piece of trim