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Discussion Forum

Correct voltage vernacular

ncproperties | Posted in General Discussion on January 29, 2009 10:49am

110v regular everyday three wire one hot, neutral, and ground

<!—-><!—-> <!—->

110v plus 110v = 220v three wire 2 hot legs one (neutral/ground – one in the same)

<!—->  <!—->

Voltage reads 120v or 125v on the switch I just checked and on a “220v†line it’ll be 240v.

<!—->  <!—->

Most anything you buy list on the packaging “110v/120vâ€

<!—->  <!—->

For some reason when discussing the higher 220 or 240 I hesitate or question myself as what to call it. I lean towards 240 with that stuck in my subconscious I think because on the job most electrical rooms and the term most thrown around site seems to be “480â€, with half of that being 240 but it doesn’t sound right. I don’t seem to question or waiver from calling 110 – 110 but 4 times 110 is 440 not 480 and you never hear 440. Is my electrical theory incorrect and 480 isn’t 4 – 110v hot leg equivalents like 220v/240v is 2-110v legs or is 110v incorrectly termed from the start? So what gives?

<!—->  <!—->

                        Actual Voltage     Common Term     Correct Terminology

<!—->  <!—->

110v

120v

220v

240v

440v

480v

<!—->  <!—->

Than isn’t there in recent years an addition that’s been in place in <!—-><!—->Europe <!—-> for energy efficient ballast fluorescent lighting that requires an inverter or something?  It’s got an odd rating that escapes me right now but I want to say 172v something like that.  All I know it as is the ones with the orange wire that you can’t take home from the job for your basement because they won’t work.

<!—->  <!—->

All replies with references to sky hooks, level fluid, board stretchers, one wheeled dirt haulers, bubble pumps, etc…are already anticipated.

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Replies

  1. DanH | Jan 29, 2009 10:57pm | #1

    As I understand it, 120/240 is the "target" voltage in most of the US. I always say "one-twenty" and "two-forty".

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
  2. rich1 | Jan 29, 2009 11:09pm | #2

    208,347,600

    1. ncproperties | Jan 29, 2009 11:32pm | #3

      you could have at least made it believable.

      1. rich1 | Jan 30, 2009 01:33am | #9

        what's not believable? 

        BTW, Skyhook is a company, and "buckets" of steam used to be used in some mining locos.

    2. User avater
      McDesign | Jan 29, 2009 11:40pm | #4

      And don't forget 277 - all of our fluorescent and LED "multivolt" drivers are 120-277 VAC.

      Forrest

    3. HammerHarry | Jan 30, 2009 02:09am | #10

      I mostly deal with 575v for us, 460 for the southern guys, 380 for them across the pond...except when it's 2130 or 4160 on the big motors.  Had a spec that called for 69kV motors, but we didn't get involved in that job.

       

       

      1. junkhound | Jan 30, 2009 12:50pm | #14

        Had a spec that called for 69kV motors

        If you could share, personnaly would be real interested in what project that was.  Have worked 13.9kV generators, lots of 11kV gensets.

        Even gigawatt power plants usually never go over 25kV for PD reasons. Never heard of a 69kV MOTOR except experimental stuff.  Pressurized SF6?

        1. HammerHarry | Jan 30, 2009 08:23pm | #21

          Well, now you made me look.  And I have to go apologize to the gods of accuracy.

          6.9kV, not 69.  Actually turns out to be 6.6....vertically mounted motors on circulating pumps...

          Now I'm embarrassed...

  3. joeh | Jan 30, 2009 12:46am | #5

    I'm thinking it's age related.

    It's 110 to me, even though I know it 120 coming out of the hole in the wall.

    Like tarpaper, I'm never gonna call it anything else.

    Cinderblocks (whatever they really were) AKA lightweight cement blocks.

    It's hell getting old, think I'll go see if there's a beer in the ice box.

    Joe H

    1. DanH | Jan 30, 2009 01:06am | #7

      Sorry, it's "lite ale".
      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

  4. User avater
    BillHartmann | Jan 30, 2009 12:58am | #6

    120 is the standard base voltage in the US for a long time.

    As is 240.

    Switches and receptacles are marked for use at the normally expected supply which is 125 and 250.

    110 and 220 have been obsolete terms for maybe 50 years or longer, but still commonly used for 120 and 240.

    Most equipment, except motors, is marked for 120 volts. Induction motors are the oposite of switches and are marked at the lowest nominal expect voltage. Thus 115 or 230.

    Now some equipment with switching power supplies can work over a wide range of voltages and frequencies. Computer monitors are often marked 100-250v so that can be used in the US or other countries.

    And some flourscent ballast are designed for 120 - 277.

    "110v plus 110v = 220v three wire 2 hot legs one (neutral/ground - one in the same)"

    Not exactly. 240 is 2 hots. Period. The ground is not for carrying current, under normal situations, and is the same for any voltage. And it is not required to make anything work.

    120/240 is 2 hots and a neutral. It for loads that have both 240 and 120 components of the load. Such as stoves and dryers.

    AC's are 240 only.

    Once you get to 3 phase there are a number of different voltages.

    One is 120/208. While rare some large houses have it, but it more common in large condos and apparents. In those cases they will only have 2 of the legs.

    Some motors are speced to work on the range of 208 to 240, others aren't.

    240 v heating equipment will work on 208, but will have reduced output.

    Some equipment, like stoves, will be marked with their current at 240 and at 208.

    Where you have

    .
    William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
    1. rich1 | Jan 30, 2009 01:30am | #8

      most of our 208 is single phase.

      IIRC, some older areas in Philly or Pittsburgh have 2 phase.

      1. arcflash | Jan 30, 2009 02:45am | #11

        208V is three phase. England is on 50Hz. I can imagine that the voltage there would seem weird to us. Voltage is determined by transformer output.

        1. rich1 | Jan 30, 2009 07:04am | #12

          We've got 208 single phase and 240 single phase depending on what part of town you are in.

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jan 30, 2009 06:25pm | #15

            "We've got 208 single phase "There really isn't such a thing. It is a sub-set of the 3 phase. They just aren't giving you the other connection to get the full 3 phase.That is very usually. As I said before it down sometimes as part of a large condo or appartments where the building uses the full 3 phase, but any one unit is only across 2 legs.The only place that I could see it in a standalone building would be ins somekind of commercial strip there there a lot of 3 phase and a small usser does not need the 3 phase..
            William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

          2. ncproperties | Jan 30, 2009 07:10pm | #17

            okay or ok, so this got a bit more extensive than need be.

            You'll never hear concrete guys call concrete, cement rightfully so and more often if placing it's not concrete it's mud. 

            For the sparkies how would refer to 110/120v and 220/240v circuits? Such as approaching a homeowner to install either of the given; "Well your gonna need a/another _______ circuit installed."

             

          3. User avater
            maddog3 | Jan 30, 2009 08:12pm | #18

            i never was a stickler for trying to be that precise ...
            the values are interchangeable as far as I'm concerned.

            .

            .. . . . . . . .

          4. JohnD1 | Jan 30, 2009 08:19pm | #19

            Don't get too hung up on the proper terminology.

            You can call it a "110-volt circuit", or a "120-volt" circuit.  Either one will get you the same understanding.  And, neither one will cause you any grief with contractors.

            And, there is this tidbit: voltage fluctuations of plus or minus 5% of the adopted voltage are permitted.  (http://forums.mikeholt.com/archive/index.php/t-68435.html)

            So, if our nominal voltage is 115 volts, it can vary from 120.75 volts to 109.25 volts and still fall within tolerances. 

          5. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jan 30, 2009 08:37pm | #22

            "So, if our nominal voltage is 115 volts, it can vary from 120.75 volts to 109.25 volts and still fall within tolerances. "That is the exact problem.The nominal volatage is not 115. It is 120.So 109.25 is too low.Sure if you tell an electrician that you need another 110 circuit run there is no question in anyones mind what you need.But if call the electrician and say that you have equipement that is slow starting, get hot and trips breakers and he ask you if you have checked for low voltage.And you measure it at 108 and then say, yes it is fine. Then you are going off the track trying to find the problem..
            William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

          6. DanH | Jan 30, 2009 08:42pm | #23

            But of course ultimately "nominal voltage" is whatever the electric company says it is. They may or may not correct it if it's 109V.
            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

          7. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jan 30, 2009 08:49pm | #24

            No there are ANSI and PUCO standards..
            William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

          8. DanH | Jan 30, 2009 10:00pm | #25

            Yeah, but that doesn't say that the utility will honor them.
            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

          9. rich1 | Jan 31, 2009 01:27am | #27

            No real arguement here.  You can get either single phase or 3 phase from the pole, but you need to know what is there.  Especially if it is 208 or 240.  It can make a huge difference depending on the equipment being hooked up.

            I just find it interesting to see all the regional differences.

          10. arcflash | Jan 31, 2009 04:56am | #30

            Well......maybe. It takes a minimum of two transformers to get 3 phase power. 120V is the standard residential voltage around here. Obviously, if I took my meter to each house in my neighborhood, if I didn't get shot, I'd get voltage readings all over the place. 110/208V is primarily small commercial buildings, etc....277 and 480V are usually the largest services we see. I've got notes somewhere on nominal voltages, their derivatives, and transformer configurations. I'm going to try to find them.

          11. McMark | Jan 30, 2009 06:56pm | #16

            We've got 208 single phase and 240 single phase depending on what part of town you are in.

            Are the quoted voltages hot-to-ground, or hot-to-hot?

            What I would guess you have is that two of the three hots were brought in, making a single phase 208 system at your panel.  But it is derived from a three phase system

          12. rich1 | Jan 31, 2009 01:27am | #28

            see above.

          13. 9ENGEL | Jan 31, 2009 03:04am | #29

            "220... 221, whatever it takes."

  5. WorkshopJon | Jan 30, 2009 09:15am | #13

    NCP,

    My voltage is 130v, 260v, 40' long directly off the transformer on a mile run, also have rotory generated 3-phase ~220v each phase.  all I know is it works, or has been for 17 years.

     

    WSJ

  6. ted | Jan 30, 2009 08:20pm | #20

    Nomenclature would be a better word to use to describe the issues you have raised.

    From Wikipedia:

    Nomenclature can refer to a system of names or terms, or the rules used for forming the names, as used by an individual or community, especially those used in a particular science (scientific nomenclature) or art.[1]

    Vernacular refers to the native language of a country or a locality. In general linguistics, it is used to describe local languages as opposed to linguas franca, official standards or global languages.

    1. ncproperties | Jan 30, 2009 11:02pm | #26

      ya, ya, ya that's why I'm in construction and not an English major.  But everybody knew what I meant. Apparently not making much more of a difference in referring to 110 or 120. I knew it wasn't exactly the right choice when I wrote it.  I thought nomenclature was more designated for written math symbols anyway.  But vernacular is correct to the extent that I wanted the "local color"/local language terms used by an American sect. known construction electricians.  

  7. bwbuilds | Feb 19, 2009 11:36pm | #31

    The difference stems from the allowable voltage drop on a residential service, and the subsequent voltage drops on feeders and branch circuit wiring. Ideally, in a 120/240 Volt Single-Phase residential service that's exactly what you're getting. However, that's not necessarily true because of the drop in voltage experienced depending on the length of the conductors, and the loads being imposed. Say you're measuring voltage at the utility pole and you get a 120volts line to ground on either pole (two poles @ 120v each makes 240v - you follow?) Now, depending on the length of the run to you outlets (from transformer to meter to panel to outlet etc...)the temperature, the sizing of the conductors, and a couple other factors you will lose some of that voltage. Now, there are maximums drop percentages allowed by code. So if you started with 120v and had a 5% loss, that would put you at 114v... and i'm sure you've seen that number come up as well. Make sense?

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