In the interest of full disclosure, I’m a professional musician and a Realtor, and a home improvement enthusiast the rest of the time. I’ve posted here once before, but I haven’t read any threads on this subject line recently.
I’ve read about truss uplift before and even had a builder over here (at our second home in western MD) to look at it. He noted that the area in the attic where the original owner (who was also the builder) installed sub-flooring contains no insulation between the bottom chords of the trusses (something I didn’t see myself). That’s a good portion of the attic, too. That in itself is probably a large part of the problem. Also consider that the house sits here much of the time without enough heat on to keep the ceiling warm in winter, and in summer the house is closed up with no air circulating in the house or in the attic (save for the soffit and ridge vents). <!—-><!—-> <!—->
The gaps between the ceilings and walls, let’s say for the sake of discussion from the center hallway outboard in both directions (in other words from the middle of the bottom chords outboard), seems to grow more each winter and retract less each summer. When we bought the house in 2002 neither I nor my home inspector spotted the fine, narrow beads of caulk the previous owner ran in those gaps and painted over. At that time the gaps were not so big and really only existed in the hallways. <!—-><!—->
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Now the gaps appear outboard of the hallway in adjacent rooms, on the hallway side of each room. The caulk the previous owner laid is starting to separate and tear the tape and paper away from the gypsum board little by little. Also a couple of interior door frames are racked and cracks are beginning to appear in the walls over time as the bottom chords of the trusses pull the walls they are attached to. <!—-> <!—->
So, the problem is not static and is growing over time. The resulting gap is not something I want to try hiding by floating crown or kitchen molding (which is just wrong anyway). Besides, now there are much tougher disclosure laws in MD (that would’ve enabled me to sue over failure to disclose a latent defect like this).<!—-><!—->
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The builder who came over said his solution would be to:<!—-> <!—->
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1) pull up the sub-flooring and insulate where none exists, and<!—-> <!—->
2) drive timber screws (I guess he means lag bolts) through the bottom chords of the trusses into the top plates of the walls.<!—-> <!—->
<!—-> <!—->I agree with his first step, but I’m not so sure about his second step. While that would certainly close the gaps between the ceiling and walls, to my thinking (and I’m fairly certain I read a year or so ago) that runs the risk of the bottom truss chords lifting the walls. But, there are also a lot of nail pops in the ceiling. Another school of thought I read about is to drive any drywall nails or screws through the ceiling wallboard within 18 inches of an adjoining wall (near the center of the house) so that when uplift does occur the ceiling drywall will just bend with it. That seems an ineffective solution, too.
I need to choose a course of action to correct the truss uplift, then repair the gaps once and for all. There’s not much point in painting if I still have the gaps. Thanks for reading my post and I look forward to your replies.
Gary
Replies
Another school of thought I read about is to drive any drywall nails or screws through the ceiling wallboard within 18 inches of an adjoining wall (near the center of the house) so that when uplift does occur the ceiling drywall will just bend with it. That seems an ineffective solution, too.
That is the ONLY solution if you intend to keep the ceiling affixed to the trusses.
edit: Allowing the movement is the only solution. You could cut the nails instead of driving them through.
You are wrong for characterizing this as a latent defect. Truss uplift is not a defect, it is a normal expansion/contraction movement associated with house construction. If you truly want to eliminate all of it, tear off your pitched roof and put a flat hot tar roof on your home.
Insulating won't help
Edited 2/15/2009 12:02 pm ET by jimAKAblue
Thanks to you and all who have taken the time to reply.
In Maryland a latent defect is characterized as an actual defect, or a condition or other fact which is known, or should have been known, which would affect a Buyer's decision to purchase a home.
I do agree with your definition to the extent that it is a normal structural condition of expansion and contraction. But the extent to which it exists in this house is unlike any I've encountered in the various homes I've owned over the years and of the hundereds I've entered on showing appointments. Also in this case, the previous owner obviously had knowledge of it and wilfully decided to hide it. It should have been disclosed. Since the time we purchased this home the state of Maryland has adopted very detailed disclosure forms which owners must fill out before marketing their home for sale, either disclosing any and all conditions of which they have knowledge, or a disclaimer form which states the owner has no knowledge of the condition of the home at all (which is kind of hard to prove unless you're an absentee landlord.
I hope that explains my characterization a little better. You are right by definition of the principle of expansion and contraction. But, these days one must disclose, disclose, disclose. And it's all designed to protect the consumer, not the Seller.
Thanks again. All the best,
Gary
I'll restate it: its not a defect.
Your entire house expands and contracts. That's physics. Should the guy be "disclosing" that your house expands and contracts too?
Truss uplift is simply a condition that exists in many houses, some more than others. To date, no one seems to know the exact reason but it's pretty safe to say that since it doesn't happen in the heated attic in summer, it's a condition caused by the cold. So, if you really don't want your trusses uplifting, insulate and condition your attic.
I repeat, it is not a defect and the seller had nothing to disclose.
FYI, I am no fan of these detailed disclosures. You probably spent a lot of money with a house inspector. Go sue him for not educating you.
Appreciate your input.
Bye
Gary,I would put some 2x6 deadwood on top of the walls to catch the rock, cut the trusses loose and use some Simpson STC or similar to reattach the trusses. Also insulate.Forgot the link. http://www.strongtie.com/products/CFS/STC-STCT-DTC.aspKK
Edited 2/15/2009 9:43 pm by coonass
"the previous owner obviously had knowledge of it and wilfully decided to hide it."I'd disagre because to date you have not said anything that demonstrates this.all you said is that he caulked a crack. All that shows is that the guy saw a crack in his sheetrock finish and caulked it. quite a leap to assume that he said to himself, "Wow, I have truss uplift so I better hurry up and conceal it with a bead of caulk and then sell the place"!Most folks have never heard of truss uplift, but they know a crack is unsightly
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Thanks again for your comments. You are correct that most folks don't know what truss lift is. Note that I wrote in my original post that the previous owner was also the builder of this home. It would be leap for me to believe he doesn't know what truss lift is.
In future I'll stick to raw facts in my posts. Lesson learned.
Thanks for your input. Bye.
Well, not to pick at a sore, but you'd be surprised how many 'builders' don't know what it is either and have never seen it or heard of it.And the fact that he built the home does not make him a "builder" anymore than the fact I have doctored myself makes me a doctor
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In full disclosure, I'm just a DIY with a past Industrial Arts teaching degree who has managed auto engineers for the past 30 years.<!----><!----><!---->
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I first dealt with truss uplift in our 1984 home in the late 80's after we purchased it as the original owners. No one really knew too much about the subject, either on this forum or anywhere else. Many of the solutions talked about here were discussed, and some recommended the worst idea, tying the trusses to the walls. And in fact, the original tract builder of this development did tie some of the trusses to the hallway top plates, which runs done the center of the home.<!----><!---->
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So now coming up on 25 years of ownership of the same home and working with the issue, here is what I've found.<!----><!---->
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The 18" ceiling drywall region to walls should not have nails. But even this is not a perfect solution, as over time there still can be stress failure within the drywall paper tape. The fiberglass tape appears to be more resistant to the issue, but the minute movement of the glass in the corners will still crack the compound. May take 10 years, but it's going to happen.<!----><!---->
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For my center hallway, the best solution was to sister joists across the width of the hallway (which is perpendicular to the tress layout). Sister is the wrong term. They are 2x4s next to the trusses, attached only to the wall plates. I'm sure some will say 2x6s are necessary, but this hall is 4' wide without any loading. 2x4s allowed for the continuity of the second layer of 9" insulation that I had installed up there years ago.<!----><!---->
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For the closets and bathrooms, it really depended on the length and situation. These were all laid out in a clump in one area, so where necessary I did install 2x6s if the span was over 4', especially with the light and fan fixtures. Hard to say if this was overkill.<!----><!---->
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Again, this was not a perfect solution. I did install crown in the rooms affected by this, and there are some areas where you see minor cracking. Most of those areas were not treated with the fiberglass tape, so I believe over time the paper tape as failed in that area which has allowed more freedom of the ceiling drywall to move up and not bend.<!----><!---->
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The OP mentioned some doors were racked. I had one door that did this early on, and I discovered this was where the original builder had nailed the chord to the wall. Pulling the bottom wall molding off, the entire wall was being lifted, with a 1/2" gap between the wall bottom plate and the sub floor. They’re some good strong forces being generated in those trusses.
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Two years ago I actually hired a contractor to do some exterior work (after all these years). A competent remodeler who has done a large amount of work in this development. We were talking about having him redo our kitchen (another project not completed) and we were talking about dealing with the uplift in the ceiling since he was going to replace all of the drywall. He never heard about avoiding the nails in the regions by the walls.
BTW, I used to have this neat little magnetic rod in a plastic holder to indicate where nail heads were in drywall. Can’t find the darn thing and was wondering if / what the pro’s use. Asking about something like it at hardware or lumberyards gets me the typical comment of “the modern way is to use a stud finder”. Maybe I’m dense on their use (have two), but not a great solution to find just the nails.
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Jack
Edited 2/16/2009 12:01 pm ET by TooManyToys
Edited 2/16/2009 12:02 pm ET by TooManyToys
Have framed many, many houses and apartments over the years. Always nailed bottom of trusses to the malls.
We have run across this only in apartments with shallow pitch. Common fix is to run crown and nail to the wall only. It hides the defect and the trusses sit down come spring anyway.
I have thought there might be many things that come into play.
It is not a common defect, if defect is even the correct word.
What are "malls"? Not a term I know. Must be an east coast thing.Thanks, John
walls>G<
I type so fast!
I agree with that point as well. I appreciate your insight. My brother-in-law posts and reads here often and tells me you're one of the good guys whose posts are always helpful.
Replies are still coming in today and I have several useful suggestions to investigate. I'll definitely come back again, although I'll temper my remarks so I (hopefully) don't strike any raw nerves with anybody, although that's not always avoidable.
We all know what we know, we know what we don't know, and we don't know what we don't know. Kind of levels the playing field when we think of it that way.
Again, many thanks.
Gary
You aren't a politician are you?;)Your BIL is wrong tho. only half my posts are worth reading.
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"only half my posts are worth reading."
Says who?
I would pull up the subfloor to insulate just because it should be insulated anyway, not sure if i would put subfloor back because you probably need more insulation depth than that would allow for.
second,as you said, try to eliminate ANY connection between the truss bottom cord and the walls below as well as remove or drive through any drywall screws within about 18" of the walls.
Third, while you are at it,I would try to foam any gaps/holes etc. in the top plates as well as the junction between the plates and drywall....You need to keep as much air as possible from moving through the cieling into the attic...IMO, this air is what is drying out the bottom cords of the trusses and compounding this problem.
Its probably fortunate that there is no insulation in this area yet as this should make it easier to correct the problem.
Fourth, if the basement/crawlspace is infinished, I would try to run screws up through the subfloor into the bottom plates of the walls to help keep/move them back down.
"IMO, this air is what is drying out the bottom cords of the trusses and compounding this problem."
I don't think plugging small holes will help truss uplift at all. It is a requirement for draftstopping though so it won't hurt.
Jim,
correct me if I am wrong but isn't it generally accepted that truss uplift is caused by the bottom cords drying out more than the top chords? And if so, would'nt warm ,dry air migrating through holes in the cieling compound the problem?
I suspect that he may have a lot of air moving through the cieling and that is why the uplift problem is so pronounced in this case.
I know you are from michigan as I am also, it is interesting here that some houses seem to have no issues with this at all, even when the top chords are tied down and other houses have bigger problems with this. I suspect that air/heat leakage through the cieling has a lot to do with it, but I am no engineer, that is just my feeling.
Edited 2/15/2009 1:07 pm ET by LIVEONSAWDUST
"isn't it generally accepted that truss uplift is caused by... "I don't believe there is a generally accepted cause for truss uplift.I should disqualify myself from saying so tho, since I do not work with trusses. I'll just step aside and let others argue the point back and forth, LOL
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I don't really want to start a big debate either, I just felt that air sealing might be a contributing factor in the OP's problem.
"since I do not work with trusses."Is that because they cannot get them to your island or that you dislike them? John
Don't dislike them. I've built withtrusses out west.It is hard to get them to the island, but mostly because I do more remo and addition work, matching existing framing on older structures
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Definitely do not fasten the chord down to the walls. That make the matters worse and borrow other problems you don't want any more than you want this.
Sometimes we run crown or picturemold purposely about 1/4" or 3/8" down from the ceiling for effect and shadow line. That can hide a problem like this.
But something else here - the doors racking suggests to me that a major part of your problem could be settling of the center foundation supports
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"a major part of the problem may be settling of the center foundation supports"
you may be correct, I did not consider that
Truss lift seems like such a prevelent issue I am surprised no one has developed a two piece crown. One piece on the wall, the other on the ceiling and a profile that is forgiving to the movement back and forth. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
""Truss lift seems like such a prevelent issue...."" I can't speak for others but I have seen it exactly once and I have built a lot of houses with trusses, never left the ceiling board unsecured at the walls either. Matter of fact until about 15 years ago we used to toenail the trusses to the interior walls and didn't have any problems with that either. Only time I had an issue with it was with 3/12 under 7/12 pitch scissor trusses spanning about 40'. Crack opened up at the ridge line, we caulked it and repainted. End of problem. Since the area I live in doesn't suffer long stretches of below freezing weather I am guessing temperatures/humidity have a lot to do with it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Not involved in residential much these days, but it is a thread that pops up regularly here. I was hoping it was my million dollar idea. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
From another east coaster, I think piffin has something.
Now it might not be a defect that the foundation has settled and doors are racking, just more settlement in one area than another.
that is the likely reason for doors racking. Doors racking would be unlikely caused by truss uplift unless the trusses are pulling up the wall (i've never seen that though)
I'd adjust the doors and keep an eye on them.
Re uplift, you will get it every winter as the weather changes and it is a normal seasonal effect.
The way to avoid the unsitely cracks in the drywall is to avoid securing the drywall to the joists within the first 12 or so inches of the wall connection so the drywall can bend with the wall and not crack. This works well with new construction but would be a bugger to implement with your condition. The only way I think it could be done is with a sawzall between drywall and truss and cut the nails loose, then patch the damage from below.
The other solution, as piffin mentioned, is a bed molding or crown molding installed in the spaces affected (usually center hallways and baths but maybe middle room walls too depending upon the severity of the uplift (related to truss size and moisture differential for your area season-season)
Gary, I too have a second home in W. Md (near Oldtown). The problems you describe I have in my own place and I built it myself. My conclusion was based on the fact that the house doesn't get used much in the winter months. I keep the heat (baseboard electric) on 55. Since no one is there for long periods of time, I concluded that the place really dries out. No one is cooking or showering or breathing or in any way adding moisture to the air. The ceilings are R-38 and the trusses are attached to the interior walls with the slotted hangars that allow the trusses to move upward and downward. The cracks where the wall meets ceiling got a bead of Big Stretch caulk and painted. You say that the cracks now appear on the "hallway side" of each room. I would think that the hallway would be in the center, more or less, of the house and would also be the area (center of truss) of greatest uplift. I say insulate, repair hairline cracks with caulks, paint and enjoy the mountain views before they are all covered with windmills.