Replies

1. 
   RalphWicklund | Nov 12, 2003 12:48am | #1

   Also known as popcorn.

   Is easily removed. A spray bottle or garden sprayer with water lightly misting the ceiling (don't soak it) then scrape. Place plastic on floor first.

   If your ceiling is painted (most weren't) then the misting probably won't work. Scraping dry is definitely a pain and takes some care to not gouge the ceiling rock.

2. 
   Piffin | Nov 12, 2003 04:39am | #2

   The wall finish you mention is called knockdown or orange peel.

   never use 3/8 rock on a ceiling. It will sag between fasteneers. Use 5/8" unless the joists or strapping are at 16" OC - then you can have 1/2"

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   JeffBuck | Nov 12, 2003 04:48am | #3

   I think he was talking about overlay the whole mess.

   if it was anywhere near ever ... that's what I'd do.

   glue it and screw it ....

   and screw the scrapping!

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 12, 2003 05:07am | #5

   sumthing is whacko at Prospero tonite. I just posted and I have a note in my e-mail saying that you replied to my post at 6:48PM - before I made it!.

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   JeffBuck | Nov 12, 2003 05:12am | #6

   something wacky with my email system too...

   maybe we're having more solar flares?

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

2. 
   jsvenson | Nov 12, 2003 05:20am | #7

   Piffin, in my neck of the woods, popcorn, knockdown, and orange peel are all very different types of finish. Did I misunderstand your post to mean that to you they are all the same?

   John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 12, 2003 05:35am | #8

   Yes. Different -

   Popcorn is that ugly stuff he is trying to get rid of on the ceiling.

   When you spatter weak wet mud on and then wipe it down dragging the float over it lightly, the finish looks irregular like an orange peel so knockdown and orange peel refer to the same wher I have been.

   Is peel and knockdown different for you?.

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   jsvenson | Nov 12, 2003 05:54am | #9

   Knockdown around here is a slightly heavy texture (first rolled or sprayed on, then stomped), allowed to set a for a short while, and then skimmed over lightly with a broad knife, or with a squeegie-like tool, to "knock down" and flatten the texture.

   Orange peel is the pattern left by simply spraying the mud on. Usually just used in closets and garages-the same places that are often just rolled. It looks just like orange peel on a bad spray paint job, only more so. Not to be confused with a splatter finish.John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)

1. 
   FastEddie1 | Nov 12, 2003 06:07am | #10

   I agree with Svenny's descriptions, except that around here orange peel walls and either OP or popcorn ceiling are de facto.

   Do it right, or do it twice.

2. 
   hasbeen | Nov 12, 2003 06:23am | #11

   That's diff between knockdown and orange peel as I'm familiar with the terms.

   ALL:  Surprised no one has mentioned asbestos.  I am under the impression that popcorn ceilings should be tested for asbestos if they are to be scraped.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

3. 
   FastEddie1 | Nov 12, 2003 06:57am | #12

   Can't you eliminate the asbestos question based on the age of the house?  Wasn't it outlawed in the very early 80's?

   Do it right, or do it twice.

4. 
   CapnMac | Nov 12, 2003 07:26am | #13

   based on the age of the house? 

   Can and can't.  In too much of the 80s in Texas, "popcorn" meant adding perlite and shooting the finish on from a hopper.  This was in lieu of bothering to t,b&f the ceilings (sometimes the walls in apartments).  Since the gunk was getting shot on in a thick layer, the theory was that it was self leveling.  Great theory--crummy tear out.

   Ok, as the asbestos laws changed, so did the filler material for the popcorn.  Ditto perlite, too.  When the material was installed may have little to do with whether or not the material torn out now will now also test as "hazmat" (especially with the microscopic levels of "hazardous" material permitted.

   Lizard skin scraper might be just the ticket for knocking down popcorn--if only enough to veneer 3/8" over it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

5. 
   hasbeen | Nov 12, 2003 07:36am | #14

   I'm thinking something like that is correct, although I can't remember the exact details.  I know it was '78 for lead paint, but there's just too many changes for me to remember them all!

   (Where did I put that barrel of penta I was gonna use on those posts, anyway?)

   ; )Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

6. 
   FastEddie1 | Nov 12, 2003 07:43am | #15

   Where did I put that barrel of penta I was gonna use on those posts, anyway?)  Isn't it stored in the shed neaxt to the drum of pcb?Do it right, or do it twice.

7. 
   CapnMac | Nov 12, 2003 08:00am | #16

   next to the drum of pcb?

   LoL!

   Even better, the PCB may be less hazardous than the penta--they've found naturally occurring PCBs, typically in stream beds.  Makes the Hudson river clean up project even more suspect.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

8. 
   user-356142 | Dec 10, 2003 09:08am | #24

   Just to set the record straight, "naturally occurring PCB's" is one of those myths that got started when Reagan was in office.  PCB's are an entirely man-made chemical.  I worked in the chemical industry and in the area of cleanup of hazardous and toxic materials for years, and I have some modest knowledge about this.  The Hudson River mess is a result of a company using a river for a latrine for decades, and has nothing to do with natural processes.

9. 
   DavidThomas | Nov 12, 2003 11:33pm | #20

   I just inspected 52 buildings for lead paint, asbestos, mercury, PCBs, etc last month.

   Yes, lead was out of paint (sold) by 1978.  But it had tapered off in the years prior and many beat the deadline by a lot.  So LBP in mid-1970's construction is uncommon.

   Asbestos (installed) was also 1978.  The law was "installed".  So even if someone had something lying around, they shouldn't have used it.  It got enough press and attention at the time, that I'd be pretty comfortable with any tract house or one by a large builder.  The one-spec-house-every-5-years guy might have been behind the curve, but I wouldn't sweat a 1980's house.  I'd still use a half-face HEPA because particulates of any kind don't belong in your lungs.

   Tests (in quantity) are about $12 each.  Protocol is 3 samples for each material with a "positive stop" sequence at the lab.  They test the first.  If negative, they test the next, etc.  Any positive means asbestos-containing material.  3 negatives and you are clear.David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

10. 
    hasbeen | Nov 13, 2003 04:43am | #21

    Interesting!

    I only know about the '78 thing because of the written disclosures required for sales of homes built before that year.

    We've been told that if there is insulation that looks like it is probably asbestos type on heating ducts, etc. that as long as it's not friable you can paint it with latex paint and forget about it.  Is that reasonable in your opinion?Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

11. 
    DavidThomas | Nov 13, 2003 05:40am | #22

    "if there is insulation that looks like it is probably asbestos"

    That is a conservative approach and not an unreasonable one.  But not all fibers are asbestos.  Mineral wool and very commonly, plain old fiber glass were used to insulate pipe.  The older stuff is definitely more likely to be asbestos than newer stuff.  And there was a transitionary period where the straight runs were often factory made fiberglass (yellowish fibers inside of thread-reinforced white jacket) but the elbows where a site-applied paste of asbestos and binders that would dry in place.

    Yes, if it not friable, don't mess with it.  It is very hard to remove without increasing the total exposure to the stuff.  And if not friable, there is no risk.  For there to be a health risk there needs to a hazardous material AND a pathway AND a receptor (e.g. a human).  Lacking a pathway (friable fibers into the air), there is no risk.David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

12. 
    hasbeen | Nov 13, 2003 06:48am | #23

    Thanks!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

3. 
   COH | Nov 12, 2003 04:59am | #4

   If you were lucky the ceiling would be plaster and you could remove it by soaking it first with a garden mister, after putting  plastic on the floor of course. You would then use a small bathroom trash can and then use a drywall blade to scape the fully wetened popcorn into the can and then throw it away. I have done this twice and it worked great. Having done it once on a drywall ceiling though is a different story. The ceiling had been poorly placed, with uneven seams, then poorly taped. You cannot wet the ceiling as much and you will gouge the ceiling. That was the reality I dealt with. With the plaster you soaked it until it couldn't hold anymore water. Cleaned up easily. Plaster, you will have more work. If it is drywall, you may want to reshoot it later with a texture to reduce your finish work.

   end

4. 
   allyd | Nov 12, 2003 04:57pm | #17

   I've removed this stuff, some that had never been painted over & some that had.  The never-painted removes very easily...  Fill a garden sprayer w/ hot water & add a bit of dishwashing detergent & mist the ceiling.  You want to use enough water so that it "drips".  Let it set a bit & scrape off w/ a broad taping knife.  The detergent acts as a wetting agent, i.e., it makes water "wetter".

   Same procedure for ceilings that have been painted but FIRST, use a broad taping knife & knock off the knobs of "popcorn" stuff.  Then spray, wait & scrape.  By knocking the knobs off, you give the water an avenue to get underneath & soak in.   Not really a big deal; comes down pretty easily, assuming a flat latex paint was used on the ceiling. 

   Work in sections because it dries pretty fast.  Also, I re-textured using drywall mud for a Santa-Fe look, so I wasn't real concerned about the taped joints getting buggered up a bit.

1. 
   donancy | Nov 12, 2003 09:01pm | #18

   I like your suggestions the best. I'll experiment with the soap & water soaking in a discrete location and yes I sprayed latex ceiling paint on the stuff when we moved in, in 1998. House was built in 1984 so I don't think asbestos was used. However, if the popcorn is wet when removed, this should lessen any danger of the stuff being inhaled or settling all over everything and I always us a mask. I will then texture the ceiling to match the knockdown look on the walls.

   Thanks for the input

   Mac

1. 
   allyd | Nov 12, 2003 10:34pm | #19

   The only concern about dust would be when you knock off the "curds" before you wet it.  After that, the stuff peels away sheet-like & stays more or less clung together.  Forgot to mention that I used a drywall hawk to catch the bulk of the scrapings.