Replies

1. 
   woodroe | Apr 10, 2007 07:11am | #1

   36". You don't want to have to climb onto the stool. 42" is too tall if you are going to be getting up alot which people usually do while preparing food.

2. 
   dovetail97128 | Apr 10, 2007 07:11am | #2

   Robert,
   I use 42" as a "Standard" for that use... however best is to know what stools are being used, then mock something up and measure for comfort.

   Edit : I assume you mean a "Bar Stool" when you are referring to stool.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/10/2007 12:12 am by dovetail97128

3. 
   Ragnar17 | Apr 10, 2007 08:38am | #3

   36" is standard height for regular countertops -- that's too low for barstools.  And depending on your height, 36" can be a bit low even for regular countertops.  If memory serves me well, the 36" standard was developed for a 5'-2" woman.

   But as dovetail said, mocking it up is always the safest bet.

4. 
   omnimax | Apr 10, 2007 08:47am | #4

   I'm sitting here at my bar counter and it's 43".  The seats of the bar stools are 29".  The rest of the counters are 36".

5. 
   Hudson Valley Carpenter | Apr 10, 2007 09:08am | #5

   As others have said, ya gotta sit on the intended stool before you decide the height.  

   The other consideration is...how much overhang do you need?  If you intend to sit close to the counter, facing directly at it while preparing food and/or eating , then you'll need to leave room for your knees and thighs to fit underneath. 

6. 
   Piffin | Apr 10, 2007 01:34pm | #6

   I just had a class in kitchen design at JLCLive. The expert teaching said 42" for that and I've found the same to be true from experience.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

7. 
   JoeArchitect | Apr 10, 2007 02:40pm | #7

   I find that you can use either height, 36" or 42", as comfortable stool heights are available for both counter heights. I think you need to look at various other factors that may come into play here.

   The food prep side of the counter should be at 36" AFF. That should be 24" deep. If the same counter area is also used for sitting at it should be 24" deep + 12" overhang= totaling 36" deep. If you want to hide any mess on the food prep side from the sitting side then you need to raise the sitting side of the counter to 42" AFF, make that about 17" deep. This raised counter should overhang 1" to 1 1/2" towards the food prep side, bear on a kneewall of 6 3/4" and overhang the rest towards the sitting side.

1. 
   karp | Apr 10, 2007 05:13pm | #9

   100%

   Great info, solid post.

2. 
   dovetail97128 | Apr 10, 2007 05:20pm | #11

   Joe,
   Pretty accurate summation. Design has to come from intended use.

8. 
   CapnMac | Apr 10, 2007 05:08pm | #8

   Ideally, the counter ought to fit the user (picking which user over the life of a single house can be tricky though <g>).

   The various suppliers of "stuff," especially the cabinet/casework makers, have enthroned by practice, that vanities are 30-1/2" tall, kitchen bases are 34-1/2" tall, and "bar height" is 40-1/2" AFF.  All of that presumes a counter top 1-1/2" thick, for repsectively, 32", 36", and 42" counter top heights.

   That 32, 36, & 42 all "hit" a 2/4/8/8 inch "module," makes them "friendly" for materials in those dimensions (like tile, bead boards, what have you).

   Do you have to use those heights?  No.  Is it a big hassle to "not to"?  Depends.  Want the kitchen counters to be 37-1/2?  No sweat, set the toe kicks on 2x and use 5-1/2" tall material instead of 4" material for the finished toe kick.  (Just remember that the DW, and ranges & such are also "set" to "standard" cabinet heights, too.)

   For bar stools, the stool tends to "control" the height--with arms, 44" is better; for breakfast, 41-42" can be better

   Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
1. 
   dovetail97128 | Apr 10, 2007 05:19pm | #10

   Jeeeze, what are you doing here... Fine Custom Work? ;-) Best advice I ever heard for height of kitchen counters for a custom kithen was to have the main "sink user" stand upright , with their arms at their sides and fingers naturally curled. Measure to the bottom of the knuckles from the floor. That dimension becomes the height of the bottom of the sink basin. Architectural Standards for heights are for the most part about 2 generations or so too short . (cept for closet rods if the mini skirt comes back into popularity .)

1. 
   CapnMac | Apr 10, 2007 05:38pm | #12

   That dimension becomes the height of the bottom of the sink basin.

   Which is probably not a bad dimension to key off of.  Just wants some notes on an elevation or two to keep the installers informed.

   Only trick of it is when there's one sink user and one dough kneader, and those people are two different dimesions.

   To my thinking, that suggests that, in our modern era, not having one uniform counter top height has much to recommend it.  Which suggests grouping kitchen fixtures by a use, so a clean-up sink is related to a drainbpard and d/w; the cooktop might be another situation; prep areas might be their own areas.  This, too, then dovetails into having more people in the kitchen, all working--another cultural change the standards are closer to three generations "behind."

   Now, that will not make a "traditional" looking kitchen at all; so that can create conflict in those who want a kitchen for "show" not for "go."Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

1. 
   dovetail97128 | Apr 10, 2007 05:40pm | #13

   Mac,
   My ex partner and I once did a split height kitchen for a couple of chefs.
   She was 5'1" , he was 6'3"... Made for an interesting set of cabinets.

   Edited 4/10/2007 10:41 am by dovetail97128

1. 
   brownbagg | Apr 10, 2007 06:31pm | #14

   i have a counter at 48 due to stove on other side, cant find stools for it

2. 
   CapnMac | Apr 10, 2007 06:50pm | #15

   once did a split height kitchen for a couple of chefs

   My fave was a very spiffy custom job over looking the Colorado rive in Travis County.  Had about 5 differing "areas" each dedicated to a process, which included a split-level younger-n-older grandkids area.  Was a sweet project for having involved clients who knew how to spend their money well (even if it was acouple of late nights a couple of three tries building the mock-ups in ahouse under construction for me and the casework artist).

   I'm not sure I'd go for five distinct areas, but it "fit" the house and the client to a "T."

   Hate to hear in a generation that it was all ripped out for flat-pack big box cabs, but that will occur well after I'm gone . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

3. 
   CapnMac | Apr 10, 2007 07:09pm | #18

    5'1" , he was 6'3"... Made for an interesting set of cabinets

   Was just visiting with Shane, the cabinet maestro two doors down in the building.

   He just got through with a job where they put pull-out boxes in the toe-kick, so as to allow "less tall" folk in the kitchen, 4" more access to various things with in.

   Man, I wish I'd thought of that (stealin' it, too, just like I told Shane <g>)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

4. 
   Piffin | Apr 10, 2007 07:14pm | #19

   That is a common trick for the vanity cabinet so the kids can wash their hands.Yes - both of them;) 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   dminiken | Apr 13, 2007 12:33am | #32

   I just moved out of a house that had a raised bar counter that was to tall at 45".  The standard height "tall" stools that my wife bought were to short.  I'm 6'-1" tall and felt like I needed to sit on a phone book to sit at the counter.   I'd recommend a couter top height somewhere in the neighborhood of 42" above finish floor.

9. 
   Gene_Davis | Apr 10, 2007 06:52pm | #16

   I like a sit-at counter at the regular 36" height, and all good chairmakers have the 24" stools.

1. 
   woodroe | Apr 11, 2007 02:10am | #20

   We have 26" stools for our 36" counter. Easy on and off. 36" or 42" it's really a design decision driven by what you are want from your space. Often the 42" height is used when those seated at the bar stools are on the opposite side from the food preparation areas. 36" is more common when those seated are within the kitchen.

1. 
   brownbagg | Apr 11, 2007 02:16am | #21

   I need a 38 inch bar stool

1. 
   sapwood | Apr 11, 2007 02:28am | #22

   Anybody ever wonder why the "standard" counter top height is 36"? Who decided that? The work benches in my shop are 34" and so is the top of my Unisaw. So if these are a good working height why should a kitchen top be higher when it's primarily used by shorter people. (I'm average height for a man, but I'd be a tall woman) I think the 36" height was set with the thought of the sink in mind. 36" is "high" but lets the sink bottom not be too low. In our remodeled kitchen we set the counter that holds the cooktop to 34 inches. That puts the burner height at just about 36". Working at that counter is very comfortable.

1. 
   Piffin | Apr 11, 2007 02:51am | #24

   It is a standard that was arrived at a couple of generations back ago when mass production and standardization were becoming more important and common. It was based on a study of the average American at the time.Call it the Vulgate standard.But They say that people a couple hundred years ago were shorter.
   And I notice that the old homes I work in that still had their old kitchen appointments ( before I wrecked things) had counters that were more like 32 - 34" high 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   renosteinke | Apr 11, 2007 03:38am | #25

   I've done a fair amount of experimenting with things like counter heights, and for the most part the "conventional" sizes are pretty close to the "ideal." Where the troubles begin is when someone uses something for a different purpose that was intended. For example, while a workbench may appear similar to a kitchen counter, the use differs. Items on a workbench tend to be larger, and require the application of more force, than items in a kitchen. Indeed, the biggest challenge to having a counter at the proper height is the material used for the top. Stone, tile, and (especially) concrete counters are quite a bit thicker than, say, a steel top. Essentially all the furniture in my home I've built myself. (Hold the praise ... the work is fairly rustic!). I've made each piece several times, experimenting with the dimensions. Apart from minor changes dictated by the spaces where the pieces had to fit, my dimensions turned out to be remarkably close to that of "standard" pieces. I guess that sometimes "the market" actually works!

3. 
   Ragnar17 | Apr 11, 2007 07:44pm | #28

   Anybody ever wonder why the "standard" counter top height is 36"? Who decided that?

   As Piffin said, it's a standard that resulted from some studies -- back in the 1930s, if I recall correctly.  Also, I seem to remember that those same standards were developed around the average height of a woman -- 5'-2" back then, at least.

    The work benches in my shop are 34" and so is the top of my Unisaw. So if these are a good working height why should a kitchen top be higher

   I guess it really all depends on the individual.  For me, 34" is NOT a comfortable work height.  I'm only 6'-1", but I'm simply more comfortable working at higher surfaces.  For this reason, I built my work benches at 38", and elevated my bench-top saw to correspond to that height. 

   For some tasks, a slightly lower elevation would work better.  I guess the best solution would be to have multiple counter heights, as a previous poster said.

    

4. 
   fingersandtoes | Apr 12, 2007 06:12am | #29

   I'm not sure its all that important what height work surfaces are. I say that after spending quite a bit of time in restaurant kitchens. In commercial kitchens, tall or short, everyone just seems to get on with it on whatever counters are available. And they spend a lot more time doing prep than any of us ever will at home.

   In today's custom kitchens, designers often call for a lowered surface on purpose built baking areas. But really, how long does even a dedicated baker spend kneading and rolling out dough?

   I guess I am getting back to a point I belaboured in an  earlier thread: that I don't see much of a correlation between the amount of energy we are putting into kitchens, and the amount of food coming out of them.

5. 
   Ragnar17 | Apr 12, 2007 09:53pm | #30

   Well, I agree with you in general.  That is, it does seem like we all spend more time on some of these details than they might be worth!

   Speaking for myself, however, I know that a countertop that is too low is a major PITA.  Having to hunch over it just hurts my back and makes me grumpy.  ;)

   So, in MY house, I size counters and sinks to fit ME.  I think that should be the golden rule of designing: fit the actual user, and don't worry so much about resale, etc.

    

6. 
   Talisker2 | Apr 13, 2007 12:17am | #31

   My counters are at 37" high and I made the one with the cooktop 33" deep and the one on the outside wall 28" I used to hate cleaning behind the sink, there was about an inch of space.  I raised my cab's to 14" above the counters to provide more room and set my electrical to 12". Wife likes it a lot, eventually when I get the tile work finished there will be under cab. lights as well.

7. 
   IdahoDon | Apr 13, 2007 05:08am | #35

   I don't see much of a correlation between the amount of energy we are putting into kitchens, and the amount of food coming out of them.

   Luckily that isn't the yardstick.  :-) 

   Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

10. 
    renosteinke | Apr 10, 2007 06:57pm | #17

    Pick you chair first ... then figure the height from there.

    I have seen counters / islands / peninsulas done in various heights, when combined with seating. The arrangement that seems to work best, for all involved, is to use ordinary barstools. This will result is a split counter; 36" for the work surface, 42" for the bar area, and the necessary switches and receptacles mounted on the 6" vertical part between the two.

11. 
    Mongo | Apr 11, 2007 02:50am | #23

    I've found that a finished countertop that is 12" (short folk) to 14" (tall folk) above the stool height to be quite comfortable.

    Mongo

12. 
    IdahoDon | Apr 11, 2007 10:12am | #26

    The problem with standards is they don't actually fit anyone other than the mythical average person.

    Look at how the space is to be used and go from there.

    Bar stools, especially the new wave of Pottery Barn'ish imports, vary in height all over the place.

    I wouldn't set the height until the barstools were on site and the client ok'ed a mockup of the countertop after actually sitting in place.

    edit:  Reminds me of installing two medicine cabinets for a child's bathroom.  The small cabinets were almost square and sized to fit a very strange 15" stud cavity.  Despite everything but ransoming their kids, the clients insisted we install the medicine cabinets halfway between what works well for the smallest child and oldest.  Totally useless.  :-)

     

    Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

    
    

    ---

    Edited 4/11/2007 4:00 am ET by IdahoDon

1. 
   Mongo | Apr 11, 2007 07:12pm | #27

   Agreed.I'm 6'4", my wife 5'1".I build our kitchen to accomodate our heights.Countertops in my kitchen vary from about 33" to 44".She likes the low one, I like the high one, and we both use the ones in the middle.I didn't design and build for resale.Mongo

2. 
   JoeArchitect | Apr 13, 2007 01:55am | #33

   Don't forget that as we age, we start to get shorter in height. Eventually the counters will be too tall if we have the luck to live too long.

13. 
    Link | Apr 13, 2007 02:15am | #34

    OK I'll add my 2 cents while we're talking about kitchen dimensions.

    First of all I make a counter for a stool 10" to 12" above the stool.  (I like 10")

    For my kitchen the over head cabinets are 16" deep (15 1/2" inside) X 42" tall and 17" above the counter.  That seldom used roasting pan, etc. go on the top shelves and the largest platter or cereal box or that roasting pan fit just fine in the 15 1/2" depth.

    Base cabinets are 28" deep with a standard 25" counter top and a shelf above the back splash to make up the difference.  (A nice place to put stuff that is always out.  Gets it off the work surface.)

    All base cabinets have draws except the sink base.   (Not sliding shelves)

    One base has two bottom draws that are 42" wide X 12" tall X 27" deep on a pair of 28" double suspension 250 or 300 Lb. (I can't remember) draw slides.  For pots and pans.

    All other bases have 5 draws.