After 10 years of building we applied for our Occupancy permit and after 2 years of correcting minor safety issues the county has placed major demands on us.We went through the appeals process with a demand that we reengineer the entire house.Our retired engineer has been brought back and we have been working on that issue.Of the 4 problems on the NOV(Notice of violation) is one of the non-prescriptive procedure we used to attach our XPS insulation.The house is of steel and mansonry block and we used 3/8″ X 12″ galvanized steel spikes and 3′ washers as fasteners to hold the 8’XPS.We predrilled 3/8″ holes and inserted steel siezing wire into those holes.We then drove the 12″ spikes into those holes creating a “siezed” fit.There are 10 spikes per 4 X 8 sheet.The spikes also hold poultry netting and stucco.The XPS also sets on its own footer at ground level.We garnered this indea from Breaktime many years ago and it works very well.
The county says this procedure is non-prescriptive and requires documentation.All efforts throught trade organizations has not helped.Can anyone provide info as the county is trying to evict us from our home.Thanks,Teresa L.
Here is a hyperlink of the home profiled in the Free Lance Star in Nov.2008
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/112008/11072008/422547
Edited 8/3/2009 12:16 pm ET by Teresa40
Replies
I hate to say it, but after working on this project for 10+years and now finding out that you have eng problems sounds like shame on you shame on them. In most places that I have worked (pretty much the east coast from Fl to Vt) a building permit musst be renewed at least every 2 years, any changes that occured in the codes would be reflected in the new plan review. In 10 years everything changes, and I think that you are in for another long process and as much as I don't like them you are going to probably end up with an attorney. I have been working on my son's house for 2+ years and we have had to get letters from the arch & eng regarding non conforming items.
Yeah, I was wondering how this slipped past the two year renewals without a problem. Seems like there must be a grandfathering in there someplace by now.
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I know in Fl if you don't renew your permit they will flag your project and if you try to procede they will red tag it. I think that we are missing some info.
Sirs;Our permit was kept active those ten years through active inspections.Even though their was protocol mistakes made on both sides our engineer has certified the structure as "safe for occupancy"The county has ignored this completely.Our district supervisor has been to our home many times and being an owner/builder himself he recognizes the building is above and beyond what the USBC requires.Our OP inspector has wide latitude on accepting many building alternatives but insists it be done HIS WAY.One of the NOV's listed was a washer stand pipe.The inspector claimed the trap was not in the prescribed location,even though it drained correctly with no sewer gas smell.We changed it two more times before he finally accepted it.The USBC code ,simply stated,says if it's safe and works the way it should then it should be passed.We had a air handler bolted to a water chiller and the NOV sited it as unprescribed because it did not come from the manufacturer like that.We took it out.This stuff is not rocket science.If it is safe and works it should be passed.Teresa
is this all new construction or an addition?
there as been a change in code enforcement over the last couple years, about shifting the liablity back onto the mfg of product. They have started a special inspector program, basically it to hire others to document the project. they dont seem to care how its done as long as document from the mfg says its to their requirement.
"The county says this procedure is non-prescriptive and requires documentation"
What that means to me is that they've never seen it before so there are no typical charts for it, so you have to get your engineer to run some calculations for shear and live loads such as wind. Once they have a stamped, sealed letter from him they will put it in the file and be more or less happy.
it means someone other than they has just bought the liability.
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This will open up a can of worms, but it sounds like there is not a mortgage involved and at this point they are looking for a CO. Am I wrong, or as long as there are not violations they don't need a CO except to get power and a mortgage? Let the worms begin to crawl!
It differs a lot in various areas.But she called it a occupancy permit rather than a certificate of occupancy. Maybe her choice os words was merely inaccurate.But I also notice that she says the officials are tying to kick them out of their house.Which implies that they are living in a house with no CO in an area where a CO is required BEFORE moving in.So yes, there is a LOT of missing info here. The can is already open and the worms are staging an escape in broad daylight.
Ten years!
Like OJs slow mo chase scene, maybe we can catch the worms on video from a helo.
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Got the slither lens on the camcorder, ready.
Sirs;Yes as with all post you limit the info to keep things simple.This problem has a hidden agenda .We bought this property 25 years ago and built the house completely ourselves.The land will be water front property in 2012 as the county is at this moment building the Rocky Pen Resevoir.The county owns all property around this resevoir except for three private parcels.What we need from this forum is info on the attachment of our XPS (extruded polystyrene insulation)as discribed earlier.If we can document it we will present it to the appeals board meeting this Sept. Teresa
Ok now the work turns. When the county seeks uses eminent domain to purchase the three properties, the one with a home will cost the county more. I hope you have somewhere else to live while this drags thru the courts. The appeal will be appealed, but good luck.
To all ;Sirs;Our property has never been threatened by the eminent domain process.We are well above the water line and no enviornmental concerns have been raised.Until last year only our OP inspector was involved and seeing minor issues.Then suddenly the Head of Utilities showed up in November 2008 with that inspector and every minor problem that had been addressed fell by the wayside and bigger issues were generated Through all these escalating problems the Head of Utilities,the man who oversees the dam project as well as the acquisition of properties has been involved since that November.As for now we must address the list presented in the Notice of Violation,mainly the application of our XPS insulation.
Does anyone know what Mr.Blakemore can do for us? Thanks,Teresa
Edited 8/3/2009 11:18 am ET by Teresa40
Ok, so I can't answer the XPS question or put you in touch with Mr. Blakemore so I will not post after this. Not threatened with eminent domain, I would be rethinking that, but that is only me a consperacy nut when it comes to government. Good Day and Good Luck. As you have seen, when you ask one question you will get many questions answered.
Mr.GRCourter;Thank-you for input as I know everyone is tring to be helpful.Here is a hyperlink to an article featuring our home in the Free Lance Star back in November 2008.Teresa
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/112008/11072008/422547
BTW,If you click on "View more images of this story"you will see my father-in law.That dear man helped us everyday ,for ten years,to build this home.He passed away---------------July 14th,2009 We will foreever be in his debt. Teresa Lauer
Edited 8/3/2009 12:33 pm ET by Teresa40
Now I understand better, both sides. GOOD LUCK and I hope that many more people send you some IMHO you will need lots.
How involved have you gotten the attorney so far? I really don't see any reason for the Head of the Utilities, the dam project manager/acquisiton manager to be involved in your construction process to inspect your structure. To me this seems like it's the sole repsonsibility of the building insepctor and none of others. Why were they on the site at all? Does the BI not have the authority to inspect the house on his own? Having those others involved makes it smell real bad to me.
JonBlakemore works in VA somewhere and may be able to offer more specific local answers for you, maybe better than the rest of us who are scattered across the globe. There's an attorney or two that frequent this place as well and they may or may not offer up some suggestions.
In your earlier, the statement that suddenly things have changed just as this govt acquisition process is underway did imply strongly that you believed one had something to do with the other as a way of explaining why they seem to want to force you out.
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Like someone screwed up a survey/level elevation calc, and her property is now gonna sleep with the fishes.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
great. Now she needs proof that the foam an stucco are water tight too :)
Who ya gonna call...SPONGEBOB!
isn't there a marineengineer on this site ?? :)
Here if you don't have a CO you don't have a legal residence, the BI issues the address/street number at the point of issueing the CO which comes with a rew points to inspect (street number on curbs and finals on the remainders of the house. They can do what they want with you re: you occupying it. For remods/additions they're more lenient with useage of space to an extent prior to the CO. Occupying new construction prior to the CO raises their hair like you've never seen before. For them to pursue eviction there's more to the story than what we're getting that may have created bad relatioins with the AHJ.
Like we all know the rules are different. Here in Fl you need a street address to get a notice of commencement. If it is an addition there is not a CO issued just a final inspection, but if there are violations the house can be red tagged therefore it is not habitable. In the too many years that I have been around this business I have known 3 homeowners that did not get a CO and moved into the homes. The local authoritys were MILDLY upset but since they could not find in code violations they could not make them move. All 3 had more money than they needed and there was not a mortgage involved.
Need more information. Is this a remodel or a new construction? Was there a building permit issued prior to starting this project? Have you had inspections on the job site? Are you acting as the GC on the job? And, not to be picky but the saying is: If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem. Slight grammer error, but I think it has come back to bite you. You are part of this construction problem. Bottom line, even without these answers you have a huge hill to climb. The inspectors can (probably will) pick this 10 year old project to pieces. Very few of our building inspectors last 10 years, so you will have a different inspector now than when you started. I would find a VERY good architect that knows a VERY good engineer and have them get you a set of "as built" plans and after eating a large meal of humble pie, take them to the building dept and see if you can move in.
Yes! I agree with Piffin on this. You should be grandfathered in by now..
Out of couriosity have you checked with a lawyer? (first visit is free if all you do is discuss the case and ask what he can do for you and how much it will cost).
I also think that it sounds like someone has their shorts in a bunch. Did you offend someone?
Finally why do you need a certificate of occupancy? New construction? Refinance? Bank requirement?
I retained mine because I never moved out..
I think that Virginia has a state building code and the AHJs (authority having jurisdiction) are the counties and townships. Of course individual AHJs probably have the right to add extra requirements. So, what I'm saying is that I think these are actually State codes you are dealing with (for the most part) although AHJs have the latitude to enforce them in their own way.
Anyway... There is a guy here who I believe lives in your area and might be able to help navigate your local bureaucracy. His name is John Blakemore.
Matt;Thanks for your response.We have talked to a lawyer about this and he is standing by.So far it is not yet a legal problem .We return to the appeals board in Sept and if we fail we can take it to the state appeals board.But the county can also appeal to the state should we prevail locally.Our lawyer warns us that if it becomes a legal issue the judgement rendered usually reflects earlier judgements made by the appeals board.Can you tell us about Mr.Blakemore. Thanks,Teresa
Anyone know John Blakemore"s "handle? I think I've got his name right. He is that guy who lives in Fredricksburg VA.
Teresa: I tried searching around and didn't find him. You could try too.
have any advice to offer the lady? thinking you're in the VA area, no?
finicky search engine, eh?
JonBlakemore
yea... I thought I tried that spelling....
Hi Teresa,
I've read through the posts and here's what I see......please correct me if I've missed something.....I've been through eminent domain claims before so here goes......
1st - If you are simply looking to get the appropriate value for a property that is headed toward eminent domain puchase, then my experience has been that you obtain an appraisal based upon the engineers letter of proper livability. Present this to the county as what you will take for the property as is. Let them know that you are prepared financially to carry this out as far as possible regardless of cost incurred and that you do not think they would be well advised to have their project delayed for many years simply due to the proper professionally appraised value that they are not willing to pay. At that point it's up to them whether they pay the price or take it to court. The county is always concerned about getting the best price for the taxpayers but they are normally more concerned about keeping a project on schedule. Thus in my eperience their schedule has consistently won out over their offer price vs. an appraised price.
2nd - If you simply want to continue to live there and own one of the only three lake front properties......I wish you lots and lots of good luck.....I would be so delighted for you as our family lost over 6300 ft of lake frontage property and you can believe that was fought. In the end we got the "proper" as is value but not the "potential" value. The "potential" developed value of lake front property was twenty times what was paid for it.
Pedro the Mule - Welcome to the government we elected
Pedro;Thanks for your valuable advice.Sorry about your outcome as we are very aware of all the effort people must put forth when fighting for their unalienable rights.For you it turned out to have been your ALIENABLE rights.We should probably post to another discussion topic as much of this has turned into conjecture about eminent domain.We need documentation on our application of the XPS insulation we were sited for in the NOV.Thanks,Teresa
Have you contacted the manufactoror of the foam?
Hi Teresa,
We need documentation on our application of the XPS insulation we were sited for in the NOV.
Understood.....I hope this comes across nicely....reading over it sounds kinda short but here goes.....the reason I went the other direction is that it shouldn't matter if you attached it with butter, bamboo leaves etc. as long as you have the engineers stamp to certify it. I would pursue strictly based on nothing more to cloud what the engineer is already willing to take the risk assessment upon.
Any focus other than that will be fueling unreasonable attempts to get something passed that they already don't want to do. They are not there to question an engineers stamp of authority, they are there to interpret areas "not" covered by someone that is multilayers above their training and education.
Judges like education. If you have an engineers stamp of approval and said engineer is licensed in that state and accepted in their territory and field, then any future judge is going to only care about that documentation and not with how something was attached. Judges in these cases aren't going to take the time to familiarize themselves with worldwide construction practices, only with state licensure.
Pedro the Mule - IMHO, Stick with the expertise offered by the engineer
Teresa,
I remember reading about your home last year.
Overall, I think your best course of action would be to get a stamped detail from an engineer (a P.E., either the one you have been working with previously or a new engineer) that shows your XPS connection detail. This seems like a minor issue so hopefully you would be able to get a stamped drawing without adding too much expense.
You mentioned the "poultry netting and stucco"- are the attachment points visible and able to be inspected, or are they concealed by the exterior finish. If they cannot be inspected, you may be required to remove the exterior finish to prove that your construction matches the engineers plans. Stafford County is getting more stringent with inspections that verify the nailing pattern on the structural wall sheathing. We used to be able to install our housewrap prior to standing our framed walls up, but that's not allowed anymore. I wonder if this is one of the problems?
Do you know what code you're under? I would assume you are still under the 2000 VA USBC, but I wouldn't know that for sure. Unfortunately, I don't have access to that code, but I do have the 2003 and 2006 USBC. If you need to check on some language in one of those codes, I could do that for you.
While reading your first posts, my thoughts were to speak to your district's supervisor (Joe Brito, I would assume?), but I see that you've already done that. My second thought would be to contact the Free Lance-Star and see if they can get your cause some support, but I could also see that move backfiring on you.
You mentioned Keith Dayton's involvement. I think part of his involvement is due to his work with the resivoir, but I suspect that some can be attributed to his role in the building department. When the previous chief building official retired, they appointed an acting chief building official. I do not know exactly what these changes have meant, but I do know that the building department has been in a state of change for the past year and a half or so. We have been learing the intricacies of changes in the plan review and inspection offices ourselves.
I wish you luck with your challenges. If you would like to contact me, feel free to send an email. My email address is JBlakemore {at symbol} RappahannockINC {dot} com.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, thanks for stepping up to the plate here.Some things about this that confused me that you might want to pay attention to here ( and may have already picked up on) I recommended to her that a simple letter and sketch from the engineer she used should satisfy them, but she says they have rejected that out of hand and want further documentation.
That suggests that either her engineer did an insufficient job, or something fishy is afoot with the county officials if this info is correct.But - I picked up on something else in the sidebar and article she referenced from the press there. ( disclaimer in part - I am well aware of how seldom the press gets it right. I also notice with a chuckle the name they give to the insulation used in the roof)
That is that a concern of the officials is that the recycled materials are hard to verify for quality standards. For instance, if a steel beam came out of a fire destroyed building before being drafted into service in her house, what sort of fatigue has it suffered?Another confusing point was raised in my mind from that article, if reported correctly. It states that ALL of the materials were brought to the site by a small pickup truck. I have a hard time picturing how those steel bar joists were hauled on a little Toyota without damaging them.verification seems to be what the county is looking for.So if her method of attachment for certain elements is unigue, I am guessing that they want to see documentation that it is adequate, AND that it was done per whatever the engineer says IS adequate. So if the stucco alreay covers up those attachment points, some form of xray or testing with a density meter would be necessary to satisfy them. They may have a valid concern.But the other stuff re the reservoir smells fishy.My final point of confusion is that in spite of the fact that her description here tells me she is in the middle of a legal crisis, she says there is no legal problem yet. I think I'd be lawyered up heavy by now if all she says is complete and true. Maybe she is trying to save legal expense, but that is being pennywise and pound foolish.
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I don't get why the XPS and stucco are being viewed as a structural conection problem.
My gut says, they ( the PTB) want to flood the area, and to justify the action, they will deem the home as non conforming or some such, to avoid the emminent domain hassle or condemnation.
I had to declare Em Dom on a neighbor once, it wasn't pretty.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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"I had to declare Em Dom on a neighbor once"
Man, not only are you rich, you must be the Governer, or King, or something! ;-)
Eminent domain is only available for use by "the State". You probably claimed adverse possession, i.e., you used the section of the neighbor's property for so long, you owned it.
And your're right -- that usually gets downright ugly-nasty. For some reason, folks don't take kindly when somebody claims ownership to the tarpit out on the back 40 that they haven't even seen, let alone used, in the past 21 years. Somehow, that unused 6 square feet of sludge suddenly becomes the most important plot of ground in the world -- even if granny ain't actually burried there!Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Ooops, yer right.
It was a common driveway that a bozo complained to the township that I encroached on his half, so I took it as mine.
Wife at the time worked for a Civil eng. and her boss had some serious clout. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Too bad -- I was kinda hoping I could say I'm buds with the King! ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
It could be they view it as a shear connection or the concern is that a fac of sreal live stucco falling off the building onto a person would be a safety concern.My gut is eating from the same doggy bowl as yours tho
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I believe she stated that there was a brick ledge or foundation protruding under the foam stucco sammich. The fastners are more in withdrawl than shear , is may take.
Or that doggy bowl is going around.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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My thought was not just shear of that assembly from the wall, but whether it was being expected to provie shear support for the entire structure
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Ok, but ( am I driving ya nuts yet?) it's in a MAS. wall..what need for more shear?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Oh - I thought someplace here I had read thayt it was a steel stud structure
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Another thing I noted about Teresa's description of the XPS in her first post. She said it rests on it's own footer at ground level. I wonder if the county is concerned about the EIFS (that's what it sounds like they have) not having 6" of separation from grade?Secondly, I don't think the reservoir is an issue. I'm not expert and do not have access to any special information, but based on what I know of the reservoir level, the house in question will be at least 10' above the normal pool elevation.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If the inspections for this structure were ongoing, there's no way they could have proceeded if the attachment details were not viewed, the engineer's documents reviewed for compliance and then the inspection signoff before coverup. Are these building inspectors qualified through training and certification to second guess the engineer of record and take on the responsibility inherent in such action?I realize that BI's have the last word, usually, but why the total about face on something already passed?A source for information about fastening the XPS:
http://www.xpsa.com/contact.htmlMaybe someone should start questioning the veracity of the engineering of the dam project.If I were the engineer of record and someone questioned my capabilities I would look beyond the immediate project in question and take this as an opening for past customers to question my prior decisions and expertise. I would vigorously and proactively defend myself against what appears to be capricious decisions retroactively applied or influenced by a previously uninvolved person.
Sounds to me, someone else wants that lakefront property.
Sirs;Have read over the latest posts and find myself overwhelmed with questions.To many to answer .-----------------------------------The XPSA (extruded polystyrene association) posted has been contacted,by e-mail 3 times,with no response.They are very near here and we considered meeting them but 3 failed e-mail responses have damped that thought.We have decided to demonstrate our XPS attachment procedure at the next appeal board meeting.This system of attachment is obviously better than brick ties if we can demonstrate the holding power of the spikes.Either way the appeals board will be the judge.
The USBC allows for alternative building techniques to be used and building inspectors need to be open to these techniques.How do you document the reliability of a procedure if it has never been done?Our Engineer signed off on this attachment procedure because it was obvious to him that it would work.He did't have to run sheer calculations and stress loading formulae (but he has ).The OP inspector is narrow minded and not following the spirit of the code;which allows for new techniques.So that is why there is an appeal process;to buffer narrow-minded thinking.The problems we are facing,the loss of our home,all could be avoided if this inspector just kept an open mind and used common sense.Thanks all for your help,Teresa Lauer
Teresa,When the reservoir if filled, how will you get access to your property? Will there be a new road installed?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I think the article linked in one of her posts had a line in it saying a new access road was going to built to service the properties (including hers) that were to be cut off by the new reservoir.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
>...and find myself overwhelmed with questions.To many to answer...<
Those questions are asked to help guide accurate answers so the old saying of garbage in = garbage out is what you'll get from here then. Unwillingness on your part to answer or at least make an attempt to answer will get you not much further than your current situ. We don't ask the quesitons for fun, only to help give worthwhile advice.
well said
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I wonder if the stonewalling we're getting here is what the BI got? I hope not.
I hesitate to castigate the OP. Some people just have a different way of communicating, or feel uncomfortable with internet discussions.But when I was on the Planning board here, every now and then we would see a person who just had a built in grudge ( not the right word, but only one cuppa joe this AM so far) against co-operating with any kind of govt entity. They generally seemed to take an attitude right off the bat and getting the right thing done in the right way was like dealing with a recalcitrant three year old who doesn't want to take his nap. Eventually they wear down and fall asleep in spite of themselves, but meanwhile, they make life hard for themselves and those around them.There are aspects of this saga that remind me of those folks.But at the same time, I am aware that there are plenty of govt officials who mis-use their authority. Seen some pf that too.So I don't have a stand on this and while I like to help folks, there really isn't much I can do or say without information that answers basic questions. I wish her well.
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I have worked for counties and what Thersa is describing seems very smelly to me. It is odd that her property is one of three remaining around the reservoir that the county doesn't own and now all of a sudden they find all these issues with the construction. Interesting too, that the head of utilities of the dam or whatever is now sticking his nose in--what does he have to do with the construction of her house? He's not the BI. Where is the legal authority for him to be involved? It all stinks, as far as I'm concerned. I think the county wants the land and is trying to drive private owners off of it.
Then suddenly the Head of Utilities showed up in November 2008 with that inspector and every minor problem that had been addressed fell by the wayside and bigger issues were generated Through all these escalating problems the Head of Utilities,the man who oversees the dam project as well as the acquisition of properties has been involved since that November.
Edited 8/5/2009 10:52 am ET by Danno
"I have worked for counties and what Thersa is describing seems very smelly to me. It is odd that her property is one of three remaining around the reservoir that the county doesn't own and now all of a sudden they find all these issues with the construction."
I don't think that's odd at all. There are a lot of private properties around the reservoir, it just happens that the county has purchased Teresa's neighbors out.
"Interesting too, that the head of utilities of the dam or whatever is now sticking his nose in--what does he have to do with the construction of her house? He's not the BI. Where is the legal authority for him to be involved?"
Actually, I'm pretty confident that he does have say in this matter. As I said earlier, the building department has been going through some changes and his position kind of inherited the stuff that goes along with the building department.
"It all stinks, as far as I'm concerned. I think the county wants the land and is trying to drive private owners off of it."
I think you're basing that conclusion on very little information. But that's just my opinion...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I agree that the engineers certification should be sufficient for the county IF the engineers drawing clearly shows a means of attachment that matches what has already been done AND the engineer specifically states that it will work in lieu of the manufacturers installation instructions.If the engineer wrote a letter saying that he inspected the house and it's safe for occupancy, I could understand where the county would want some clarification.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yes, if there is nothing funny going on behind the scenes at the govt ledvel, then this is most likely a failure to communicate in terms they recognize
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