A relative of mine asked me to stop and look at an (almost) flat roof on his house. This roof was supposedly new 2 years ago when he bought the house. I’ll call him “Cousin Bubba” to pretect his identity. (-:
Attached are 4 pics of the roof. The first one called “Roof Overview” was taken from the ridge of the house, looking down on the flat roof. You can’t really tell in the picture but the roof slope at roughly 1/4″ to 1/2″ to the foot.
For the most part the main roof doesn’t appear to me to be in bad shape. But I know very little about flat roofs.
The next picture called “Roof Edge” was taken at the far corner. The drip edge they put on was so tight, it slopes up a little and pools water there. The roofing material appears to have separated from the metal roof edge there, so I suspect water is getting into the overhang there.
The 3rd picture is called “Plumbing Boot”. It has obviously lost it’s adhesion to the roof. He says he’s not sure if the roof is leaking there or not.
The 4th picture is called “Unknown vent”. I think he said it was an old “whirlybird” type vent. But the top was bad, so he just capped it.
He says he believes the roof is leaking around that vent. It’s hard to tell in the pictures, but sone of the rubber “boot” has also lost it’s adhesion to the main roof membrane.
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Anyway, he asked me what I thought he could do to fix it. Trouble is, this is a little over my head. So I told him I would ask you guys.
Overframing the flat roof is an option. But we couldn’t get a lot of slope without going above the existing ridge line. And it would be fairly expensive.
To me, it makes more sense to try to fix this flat roof correctly. But I don’t really know how to tell him to deal with these leaks/loose rubber boots things.
Why do you sit there looking like an envelope without any address on it? [Mark Twain]
Replies
Boss
I couldn't tell from the pictures. Is that a rubber roof?
Ron
"Is that a rubber roof?"
Truth is, I don't know. I don't know the difference between rubber, EPDM, or ???
I attached a couple more pictures that will hopefully show more details so some of you can tell.
The roof appears to be "cushioned", if that makes a difference. Kinda like it has an inch or so of capet padding under it or something.
I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it [Mark Twain]
I can't get your roof 1 photo to open at all, but from the other I can see where i made one error. It first looked to me lkike the EPDM ran up a slope to tie to the shinglse over a break in angle between the two.But it is a verticle wall section topped off by regular eaves edge under the shingles. That makes me wonder where the end of the EPDM is. if it is barely tucked under the eave edge, then it could be a source of water intrusion
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Roof 1 opened fine for me. It gives a pretty good view of how the roofing stuff lays.
I'll put it in here so you can look it over:
View Image
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?
That underlayment does look like it is bulging up badly between fasteners. If definitely doesn't have enough fasteneers( you can see the shadow of the screw washers through the membrane in several photos) but I can't tell if this uplift is from water trapped or wind uplift.
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"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"Dunno, but some 'roofers' are blissfully ignorant.Anyway -
Here are some shots of how the edge should look
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Dang Piffin !!!
What kinda snakes you guys got out there ???
By the looks of those snake belly marks on the ground down there, I don't think I ever want to run into one...
View Image
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
There's a reason some of us believe in dragons
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I have some questions back atcha.
You don't say what material this roof is for sure, but it looks lie EPDM? The closeups look EPDM but there seem to be laps every three feet in the overall shot. Maybe it was APDM OVER another roofing material, which is also a NO-NO
If so, who put it on? Him?
It does not look like a professional job to me.
I can't tell for sure, but the roof edge photo makes it seem like the metal was nailed down first, and then the main membrane was placed directly over it, supposedly seald to it, but the proper method is to lay the whole membrane to the edge of the roof deck, cut it there, and then nail the metal edge over it, and seal the metal down with a 6" or 9" roll of neoprene flashing material, and then caulk the edges of it. The caulk job is pretty squiggly too. Not an experienced, steady hand at it. Maybe the caulk was cold, and the caulkist was working hard to force it instead of warming it, or maybe he/she was not used to caulking.
If it was too cold for the caulk, that could have some bearing on the adhesion of the flashing over the stack flashing at the soild stack, which is cut too short, BTW.
Again, I am unsure from the photo, but it looks like regular EPDM there instead of flashing material.
My main comment goes to the whirlygig vent in the center.
You say he thinks it is leaking there.
Why does he think that?????? Is there water coming in someplace?
Here is my comment, from an opinion that I formed even before the photos downloaded - if that was designed and intended to be qa vent, and it is now capped over, I would expect it to show water signs from condensation becaue internally, a lot of waarm moist air is being directed to it, then he caps it off and refuses to leet it breathe. Where does he expect that water to go?
Tghere is one more detail that concerns me. In the phioto of the soil stack flashing, it looks like the shingles are cut off, and the EPDM is too. it appears to be facing lapp up with no caulk. I presume that some sort of metal was used for the transition at the break, and the EPDM was glued to it and terminated instead of being installed up under the shingles as it should be - at least 18"
so - here is my best guess, based on what I see so far;
Bubba did not want to spend too much and wanted it done fast, so he got the first local guy he could find. Probably the roof was already on with roll roofing run up under the shingles and the matal at the break was there too.
The installer "saved" him some money by adhereing to the break metal that was already in place so he would not have to interrupt the shingles and replace them there. He saved himself some money too, by not using any neoprene flashing materials, taking a chance at the edge by going directly to it with the membrane and relying almost entirely on the caulk edge instead of proper procedure. He then did a sloppy job of caulking there, and thermal expansion broke the seal.
But in spite of all the shortcuts by the roofer, the real culprit is the fact that the vent was closed off, and the resulting condensation is imitating a roof leak.
Pop that vent hood off to see what is there under it. I'm guessing a couple of sheet metal screws of drilled out pop rivets will tell you a lot.
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"If so, who put it on? Him?
It does not look like a professional job to me."
The roof was on the place when they bought it, roughly 2 years ago.
"...the roof edge photo makes it seem like the metal was nailed down first, and then the main membrane was placed directly over it.."
That's correct. It's kind of a "homemade" drip edge, but wider. Made out of trim coil.
"My main comment goes to the whirlygig vent in the center.
You say he thinks it is leaking there.
Why does he think that??????"
I don't know - I took his word for it. I didn't go inside the house.
"I would expect it to show water signs from condensation becaue internally, a lot of waarm moist air is being directed to it, then he caps it off and refuses to leet it breathe."
The cap is just a cone shaped piece of sheet metal. It's suspended a bit above the vent pipe, so air can still escape.
" In the phioto of the soil stack flashing, it looks like the shingles are cut off, and the EPDM is too."
The flat roofing material goes up the vertical surface a bit, but not up to the shingles. I don't get what you mean about the shingles being cut off.
"Pop that vent hood off to see what is there under it."
Not a bad idea. I didn't really look at the overall venting situation. I don't know where air can or can't get in or out, other than this vent.
But what about these loose areas? Should they be fastened down with roofing cement, or ???
Again, remember that I've never dealt with a flat roof. When you talk about neproene flashing stuff, I have no clue what you're talking about.
I'm not losing hair, I'm getting head.
Yes, it is surely an EPDM roof. what I thought was an older roof material telegraphing through is the underlying material - kind of like homasote, but it is not very well fastened down. If it feels as squishy soft as you describe, it may be wet. In that case, there is little to do but tear the whole thing off and replace it.EPDM is now sold to HOs through some outlets, so it may be an HO job by the previous owner.the neoprene is what we also call "uncured". It is still a rubber but tacky. It comes on a roll and can be formed to shapes and such around flashing areas. It is still glued on. The best way for a temp fix at that soil stack would be to clean it up on both sides like making a patch on an innner tube. ( and if an old faarmer like you doesn't know how to patch a tire, just throw me off the roof and jump on me...)Some guys use gasoline, but white gas or acetopne is better - and a clean rag to scrub down the mating surfaces. If you have some rubber cement, that would do the job. Does it look like any glue was used there on that one? It should have been a contact cement probably, but I don't see any residue.I understand the flashing at edge now. It had looked like someone added teh gutter laters and bent it up, but still, it should have the double strip to seal it.The cut off shingles - I worded that poorly. just meant that they terminate there over the metal flashing.Whenever i am looking at a roof for leaks, I always ask what makes them believe, and followup with other questions to get a history just like the doctor does when is trying to diagnose a headache, or tummyacheWhen does it...
How long has it....
Can anything regularly bring it on...The answers tell me a lot. I don't ask like I'm not believing them. Just say, "I need to ask you a few questions to help me find out what the source of the problem is so I can fix it right..."Living in cold areas, I would say that a third of the roof "leaks" I am called for turn out to be from condensation/lack of proper ventilation and VB
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Here is how a connection between EPDM and a metal falshing should be detailed.I think in one of your last photos, there is a piece of uncured N at taht lit6tle corner almost out of the photo at left, kind of diagonal to a fascia under shingles
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Wow, that's like waaay different than I've done it. But I'm willing to own up to not doing it correctly (wouldn't be the first or last time). Been a couple years since I've played with EPDM (although I wouldn't mind slapping it on my current roof). Typically I just get a big sheet (one sheet for the whole roof if possible). And then run it off the edges and put termination strips on (and then caulk the strips).
It would be nice if there was a drip-edge type termination strip.
piffin, correct me if I'm wrong. On that plumbing vent patch I would:
1. brush away any loose bits
2. wipe the area down with dishsoap & water, and then just water(to rinse soap off)
3. hit it with splice cleaner (or primer)
4. adhesive it down (epdm-to-epdm adhesive)
5. sealant around the edges
There are also splice-tapes available. And self-adhesive patches.
I was guessing the squishy underlay was either blueboard or that glorified cardboard-particleboard-like stuff (drawing a blank).
Sounds like he isn't using the whirly vent anymore. Wonder if he couldn't get the Sawzall out and turn that into a SolarTube? That would eliminate the leak and give the room below some natural light. Then just buy a self-adhesive 'around a vent' epdm boot.jt8
Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out. -- John R. Wooden
I figured you guys would be all over "Cousin Bubba", trying to dig up some dirt on me. I know I'd sure do the same for any of YOU guys if a relative of yours stopped in here.(-:
Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid. [David Hackworth]
Good idea on that solartube.Your patch procedure is correct, but I was advising for a rural good old boy with limited access to typical EPDM materials. The cleaner you mention is essentially acetone, maybe with a couple of additives. either would be needed to remove soap residue. I wouldn't thing the soap necessary unless there is sign of oil or grease staining.Termination bars, are primarily for when a proper flashing is hard or impossible to do, such as when running up a brick wall. You can do this with any regular eave metal amd do the strip over it like I drew.In the photos I had posted with the flat roof over a 'pizza hut' drop, the EPDM lay down over the shingles acouple inches under that lead coated copper flashing you see sealed in there.
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Piffin, do you think I could use regular drip edge as termination strips? Maybe put some sealant along the back of it and then screw it into place. Then sealant/caulk the top edge of it.
I like termination bars because it doesn't rely on adhesive to keep the edges down.
Your patch procedure is correct, but I was advising for a rural good old boy with limited access to typical EPDM materials.
Understandable. Useta live in the boondocks and it was a PITA having to run to town for everything. Now I'm 5 min from Lowes while at home, and its across the street when I'm at work (and Menards is about 2 mins away.. and Sears about 4 mins).
In the photos I had posted with the flat roof over a 'pizza hut' drop, the EPDM lay down over the shingles acouple inches under that lead coated copper flashing you see sealed in there.
Looked kinda like a mansard. Having shingles there complicates things. I'm somewhat nervous about the edge-length patch over the flashing. My cynical nature tells me that caulk/sealant eventually will break down, in which case what's to keep it from getting rain under that section? Are you just trying to make the top layer "one" with the bottom via adhesive?
Boss, if you happen to be making the 40 min drive up here, Menards carries EPDM rolls (limited sizes) and a few EPDM products, but it seems like I had to visit a roofing supply store for some items. But Menards has better hours. I don't think Lowes carries EPDM.
I would try to fix the current roof before starting over (if possible). EPDM products are NOT cheap! Probably depends on the condition of the underlay and the edges whether patching will work.
If Bubba goes for the solartube idea, Mike Smith prefers SunTunnel brand. I defer to his brand preference since he's put in many of them.
http://www.veluxusa.com/products/sunTunnels/
jt8
Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out. -- John R. Wooden
You show up with more questions like my cat shows up with dead mice, LoLTeh main EPDM membrane is glued down, then the edge metal is nailed every four inches roughly speaking. It is not firm enough to function as a termination bar and is likely to pucker here and there, especially with thermal expansion. The idea of the strip over it is that it is glued down too, and then edge sealed for insurance. I don't show the glue in the drawing, just the bead of caulk.Suppose that the edges failed in this system, the water has to travel under the seal strip, then under the metal, back out to the edge, and then filter back in under the main membrane before it can leak. Alternatively, it can find a nail hole where the metal is fastened and work on loosening that up over ten or so years.The shingles don't really make a complication, other than the style of metal edge when it is designed. The flap of EPDM down over shingles and under the flashing is facing downhill so in the event that the whole seal strip detail fails, the water is still doing what water should do in any watershedding detail on a house where lapps face downhill.
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Any idea on the best way to take care of the edge as show in edge.jpg? It looks like just plain drip edge that has pulled up since the membrane was put on, and now the drip edge, well doesn't drip that well. Since the membrane was cut just short of edge, I don't really have any to work with. It looks like the previously posted picture has a nice edge that extends a little further. After closer inspection, the membrane extends up underneath the shingles, as seen in the dripedge.jpg picture.So it looks like I just need to thouroughly clean the patches around the vents, and get the correct adhesive for those, and then solve the edge problems.Once again, thanks for the help.
Apparantley that roof was applied over an old one. All those roof nails rising from under are the old tacks that were holding the roll roofing in place. since the edge was not done right, I would do as I suggested earlier - to put new good edge metal over the edge, nailing it down about every four inches ( You need to use a long enough roofing nail or SS ring shank, to reach down to something solid, probably at least 2") and place the strip over it with glue and caulk. This wouldf be simpl;y finishing a job that was never completed.Look at my posted drawings
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Thanks for spending so much time on this thread. Yes, I do know how to patch a tire. And so does Cousin Bubba. You asked if it looked like any glue had been used - Offhand, I'd say no. To me it looked like they just laid the stuff on top of the roof, then ran a bead of roofing cement around it from a caulking gun. But that's just a guess. I didn't want to pull on any of the stuff and loosen it anymore than it already was.
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself [George Washington]
That unknown vent looks to me to be the exhaust for a gas operated hot water heater or cloths dryer. If it is, it is way to close to the roof and needs to be raised up a few inches. The heat coming off of it may not set the roof on fire but will hasten its deterioration around the vent.
Cann't help you much about the rest of the roof.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
It is that type of cap, but seems like a larger diameter.
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That is the way it looked to me too from what I saw in the picture.
Which is kind of scary! That means they might have just sealed that perimiter edge the same way. I would probably want to add a nice real metal edge there and add the proper flashing neoprene over it as I showed in the drawing. Don't worry about my time. I had fun with the CAD and needed a similar detail drawn anyway for a job.I am still curious, if you get back up there sometime, whether it really feeels squishy from water when you walk on it, or if it just floats on a cushion of air somewhat.
either way, tell Bubba not to drop tools, especially sharp ones, on the membrane surface. It is pretty toughstuff, but with no firm support behind it, it is easier to penetrate.Good luck
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Cousin bubba here...Like cousin Hogg said the roof was on there when I bought the house, (about 4 years now Hogg). I didn't notice the leaks until I remodeled the room underneath the roof and replaced the old ceiling with drywall. After the first heavy rain, I realized that about directly underneath the old whirlygig vent, my drywall seam was coming apart, and my chair was wet. I've never actually caught it leaking, but its always after heavy rain. I replaced the whirlygig first, because I figured it would be the most likely culprit. I left about 1 1/2" clearance between the vent stack and the cap. It's definately not the best, but there should be airflow.As for the sewer gas vent, when I remodeled the bathroom last year, and looked, I didn't see any obvious water damage around there. When does it... After any heavy rains
How long has it.... At least 2 years now
Can anything regularly bring it on... heavy rainsUnderneath the roof is at least one layer of a foam board (Not sure what the correct name is) that is the squishy layer he was referring to. As for it being wet, I know on the edge shown in the picture, it is exposed and is wet. I'm sure whoever owned the house at the time found the cheapest installer, the same way everything else in the house was done. I'd actually like to fix it right for a change.I'd like to get the leak fixed, but I'm also worried about the edges, because they don't seem to get the water away from the house very well. Thanks for your help
Well, howdy, Cuz,those turbine vents do let some water blow in with a heavy rain, so that may be all there was to that.But it sure would be good to know if the wet squishy is just near it, or over all the roof.
Also, do you know if there is any sign that an original roof still exists under this EPDM? You might have seen signs of such when you had the cieling down and had a peek at the vent hole cut edges.My biggest concern now would be the perimiters. Read my previous post to Boss Hogg. But if the top where it ties to shingles is weak, then alll the water running down the roof from the shingles could be getting a chance to penetrate there at that connection. That would be where I would look if ALL the underlayment is squishy. If it is miostly just down from the soil stack, that flashing is where I would concentrate.
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One thing that should also be mentioned is that glue, caulk, primers, nearly everything made for EPDM is specific to rubber roofs. Almost everything designed for asphalt (tar, torchdown, etc) is bad for EPDM.Just my $.02,JK
You say that it only happens during a heavy rain. IMHO what is happening is the rain is coming down so hard and fast that it is bouncing back up and underneath that cap. Then the water is running down the inside of that vent into the attic space.
Raise that vent up about 6 more inches and see if that doesn't cure it.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
good point
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Hey Bubba,Is Ron really married to a Pamela Anderson lookalike, or is he just pulling our legs ?
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.