I’m finishing up some design work on a house with a two story porch on the front. The porch dimensions are approximately 8’x40′. My dilemma is with how to waterproof the second level.
I’m planning on using joists with T&G sheathing, covered with EPDM and 2x sleepers which will support the decking. I feel that this may be probably overkill, but that’s plan.
The question I’m coming up with now, is how much pitch is necessary on this floor? If it were exposed to the elements, I would thine 1/4″ per foot would be ideal, but the only rain that could conceivably reach the EPDM would be windblown rain around the perimeter. We have 12″ overhangs which will help somewhat with this. As far as construction goes, a flat floor system would be the easiest, but there would always be the potential for pooling of water.
So what is the best solution? I’m also interested to hear if anyone else has a novel approach that would eliminate the EPDM.
Replies
http://www.grailcoat.com
It is a proprietery product, but certification only cost $150 and a day of your time.
I have been looking into it for use on a covered deck. Nearly the same situation you have. The decking is Advantec and will only be subject to windblown rain and washing with a hose.
Check out thier site map for training locations.
Dave
Thanks for that Dave. I wasn't aware that grail coat was a waterproofing product. In fact, the only time I've heard about it was when Bucksnort Billy had an issue with an exterior door and the exterior finish was grailcoat.I'll be doing some research to educate myself.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, the ones I've dealt with were simply T&G flooring over joists. Flooring runs slightly downhill away from the house. Need to watch your mc when installing- you know the climate.
Traditionally, heart pine which lasted about forever. Available now is PT kiln-dried. Used it once, more than enough for me. Absent heart pine, I'd go with quartersawn white oak unless it's paint finish. Yellow pine isn't the answer.
Nothing novel here, just time-tested. You want slope.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom,Unfortunately, the client wants composite decking instead of T&G wood flooring. I looked in to Tendura, but the expansion problems concern me.So, as far as I know, we're stuck with decking on sleepers, unless some other novel approach comes up.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, can you give the expansion issue info you've come up with on Tendura?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I roofed a bunch of second floor porch roofs on some waterfront condos with EPDM about twenty years ago. Glued 1/8" per foot tapered ISO panels to the wood deck with EPDM bonding adhesive then screwed 1/2' plywood down thru the ISO to the deck substrate. Fully adhered .060 EPDM following the manufactures installation specs exactly. The saying is " One ply,One try"- do it right! The tapered panels allowed for enough drainage without making the deck uncomfortable to sit or stand on. The carpenter then made PT decking sections using flat 2x4's and 5/4x6" bullnose decking. A slip sheet of EPDM was placed under the sleepers with a couple of dabs of Lap Caulk to keep them in place.The sections were about 4'x4', heavy enough to stay put in the lake winds of winter, but removable for maintence, if necessary. Never had any leaks or callbacks !
Calvin,In looking at all the information both here and over at JLC, there were just too many issues for me to feel 100% comfortable about it. Most of the problems that I came across had to do with excessive expansion.Tendura's not cheap and I estimate that we can do Trex with sleepers & EPDM for less materials and labor.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
This coming spring I've got a covered porch job at the end of our drive. Screams lifetime guarantee. The late 1800's age of the main house suggests T&G fir, but the quality of the currently available product and the high cost might sway the decision. No maintainance is always something that comes up. Looks like I've got some looking to do.
thanksA great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin,
Good luck with this project. One difference in our situations may be that I have to make a pretty good effort at keeping the first level of the porch dry (I imagine the client would not be enthralled at having water drip through the soffit and hit visitors waiting at the door). From what you describe, it sounds like you're water-management needs are not as important.
As I said, the expansion is what concerns me about Tendura. They have literature that shows the installation methods to deal with it, but I didn't want to build a porch floor to be 99% waterproof and then have to add control joints that could be the source of leaks. In your situation, the methods to deal with expansion are probably not as objectionable.
P.S. What do you know about special order tile?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, here's what I know of special order tile. Shipping is the downside to any tile order. Suppliers frown heavily on returning any of it. How big an order? Comes from?
Whenever tile is mentioned, "some variation in color / pattern " is the next sentence. This is the universal "way out". I saw the tile example in your other post. If the customer doesn't want it I would do all I could to get a return, perhaps with a return charge I guess. Could there possibly be any guarantee that a re-order would be more like the chosen color? Doubt it. Older samples can vary greatly with a newer version of the product. Nat. stone is even more varied as they move along the quarry.
And lets not get started on the grout.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
covered porch is the ideal location for tendura, espeially in that style.Pictures Ihave are on other PC
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This will be a covered porch that comes off the west side of the 2 story house-approx 12x16. Screened on 3 sides, should see some partial direct sun along the south side, more in the winter. A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Tendura does not recommend or warrantee the product when exposed to direct sunlight heat expansion is too much. They want to see a roof over it for shading.
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redid a porch in NJ lasdt week and was told that Tendura is no longer available. Seemingly they have stopped producing it. Better check with your supplier.
No kidding, just looked at their site mid week.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
That sets off some alarms!
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The site is still up like nothing happened. That's all I know.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
That is fine and traditional for first floor but no way is it water proof for second floor
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Second floor is normal, traditional. Stays dry just fine.
Maybe you need more humidity. Or better craftsmen.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
What am missing there? If seccond floor has no roof over it, there is no way it can stay dry and be waterproof for protecting the first floor unless it is in the Death Valley
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What am missing there? If seccond floor has no roof over it
Jon wrote "house with a two story porch on the front". In Virginia that includes a roof, otherwise it wouldn't be a two story porch. The overhangs he mentions should be beyond the 2nd floor perimeter.
Common feature here on older large houses. That's why I said "traditionally". I've only installed one, but been under many. Mine didn't leak. Don't remember ever seeing one that did, no water stains. You know I'm not much of a carp, but I can copy what I've seen that worked.
Far as I can tell, any water that makes it through a gap between floorboards is carried by the tongue to the outer edge and dumped there. That outer edge is where the rot occurs if inferior wood is used, usually yellow pine. No butt joints, all boards go from the house to the edge of the porch, limiting your porch size to the length of available boards.
I could be wrong about water movement on the tongue, haven't seen it. I left the board ends exposed, including the gap at the tongue, just as I've seen done. Generally when we get rain it's during a period high humidity, not that we ever have much low humidity. Not much opportunity for a gap between boards.
The failures I've seen have always been from somebody thinking they knew better and running the flooring the other direction. That doesn't work very well. Another failure point is if somebody runs a screen frame all the way to the floor, trapping water uphill from it. That was the floor I replaced. And raised the screen frame for drainage.
Sure isn't much like Death Valley here. <G> Much as I enjoy visiting there (winters). PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Just for clarity, the house is a two story house with a porch level on each story. My concern is the water shedding from the second level down onto the first level.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
" a porch level on each story"OK, but is there a roof over the second floor level?
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Yes.We have:
Roof
Ceiling
Porch floor
Ceiling
Porch floor
grade
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
In that case, the only time it will get enough rain water to wet through a t&g deck is when high wind is pushing it. Is it sheltered or facing into the predominant wind diretion?
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A wood T&G deck is out for reasons of maintenance.We do have cover, but to be honest I have no idea what our prevailing wind is. How would a young buck like me find this out?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Which way do the trees lean for startersAsk the sailors around townSpend a day outside?
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I'll take note of the trees, try to find some sailors (good luck with that one) and spend a day outside.Where is the prevailing wind in your corner of ME?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
prevailing is from the WNW, but when it is driving a rain, it is a noreaster
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Maintan ence???use T&G Ipe`
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" a porch level on each story"
OK, but is there a roof over the second floor level?
LOL Simple confusion... BUT, porches are for sitting, right? As in before ac, when the house was sweltering. In Virginia we have enough sense to sit in the shade. Not to metion that porch swings need to be hung from something. We never got with those sky hooks.
If these folks want a 2 story porch, they've gotta have a porch swing. It's in the code.
Do your neighbors call that rail enclosed topless roof area a porch?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
When I look at the thread title, it is easy to see what it is in the light of day now. But I think my assumptions came from what we have locally - most of the ones I work on are open on the second floor and covered in on the first floor.We even have a legal definition in the book here - a porch has a roof protecting it and a deck is open to the sky with nothing else defining space other than the railing
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We even have a legal definition in the book here - a porch has a roof protecting it and a deck is open to the sky with nothing else defining space other than the railing
There you go. Now you and Jon can figure out how to please his clients who're rejecting the time-tested method. I won't put any paint on the outside of my house either, but I'm not foolish enough to want a pretend-traditional house.
Zero maintenance is my ideal.
BTW, most of my experience is from an 18th cent. farm here (several houses) where I've had all the opportunity I wanted to poke around. The master br porch (second floor) is at least 100 yrs old, heartpine. Gets a coat of paint every five yrs or so. The porch floor I installed was on the guest house, built in the 1930's. They're a little like your clients I guess, August is the Bermuda house, skiing is the Park City house, rest of the year here with the horse-breeding. They aren't crazy about the necessary maintenance, but insist on tradition.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
hard to beat good old clear VG heart pine!
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I guess I mis-assumed no roof. Agree with rest of what you said especially running deking perp to house
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What I do is pitch the sheathed deck with EPDM and then shim the sleepers up to facilitate drainage under them and to re-create a level for the Ipe decking
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