Are there any issues with covering romex with insulation, code or otherwise? I’ll be blowing in 12″ of cellulose and most of the house wiring is stapled to the bottom chord of the roof trusses.
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Replies
Jim,
No , as long as all the connections occur with boxes.
Perfectly fine to cover it.
" No , as long as all the connections occur with boxes."And if you have any connections outside the boxes then you already have problems that need to be fix, with or without insulation..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, You are correct of course. I didn't take time to get into details, Just tried to make a short answer to the OP's question.
No problem so long as all splices are in boxes........with covers. I've also found it handy if someone took a few minutes to mark box approximate locations so future electrical work doesn't require pawing thru a bunch of insulation to find them. - lol
No problem so long as all splices are in boxes........with covers. I've also found it handy if someone took a few minutes to mark box approximate locations so future electrical work doesn't require pawing thru a bunch of insulation to find them.
Umm, it's not OK to bury the boxes in insulation. It's OK to bury wire, but NOT boxes. NEC requires that boxes remain exposed and accessible, wherever they are installed.
edited based on later discussion in this thread:
This is subject to local interpretation - your local inspector may allow it, or may not. It's best to check with the local inspector if this is an issue for you.
Edited 4/10/2007 10:31 am ET by woodturner9
"Umm, it's not OK to bury the boxes in insulation. It's OK to bury wire, but NOT boxes. NEC requires that boxes remain exposed and accessible, wherever they are installed."It never says that..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I have to agree with you.Insulation is part of the building. Especially if the energy code requires it. That means that junction boxes cannot be covered with insulation.On the other hand it is traditional to treat blown in insulation as not "part of the building."
An access panel is "part of a building".
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
This is the definition of accessible in section 100 of the 2005 NEC."Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed
without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the
structure or finish of the building."This is from the NEC Handbook, which includes the code along with background information."Wiring methods located behind removable panels designed to allow access are not
considered permanently enclosed and are considered exposed as applied to wiring
methods.".
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
What about recessed can lighting? I just blew about 2 feet of insulation over these IC cans.
I can't access the splices from below.
Does that me you can't have cans in a one story ranch and cover them with insulation?
I think you can access them from below. They have two covers. One 'inside' and one 'outside' the can.Chris.
Edited 4/9/2007 8:30 pm ET by ChrisL
You can access them from below and even get to the splice? Wow cool. Just remove the screws in the the can, drop the can and then pop off one of the two covers.
Makes perfect sense.
I got two boxes under two foot of insulation, only I know where they are, so sue me, and now I,m going go tear the label off mattress
Edited 4/9/2007 9:18 pm by brownbagg
The removal warning on the mattress is directed toward the retailer. You are free to remove it.
If there were any issue at all with burried boxed in loose fill insulation, there'd be no such thing as IC can lights. Inaccessable or buried splices, are those that are covered by wood, wallboard, brick, concrete, et cetera. If you can sneeze and thereby remove the item in question, it hasn't rendered your splice inaccessable. One of the reasons inspectors routinely call out cover plates in attics at rough-in is they know damn well they'll never see the box again once it's been insulated.
Yes with can lights (both styles), you can get to the junction box from inside the room, but not without moving the blown in insulation (in the situation discussed)!Covering boxes with blown in insulation passes inspection here (VA and MD) just fine. I do try and keep them out of the insulation for my own ease.Insulation is easily moved in attics, so it is not a permanent part of the building to be disturbed.I guess that puts me in the Bill column once again.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Covering boxes with blown in insulation passes inspection here (VA and MD) just fine.
FWIW, I first encountered this restriction in Maryland - the Baltimore electrical inspector rejected a job where the junction boxes had been covered.
From what others have posted, it's sounding like it may be a very localized thing. Probably best to check with the inspector in the locality where the inspection will be conducted to make sure they are OK with it.
Probably both inspectors and sparkies get confused at times as to whether a particular rule is dealing with non-IC lighting fixtures vs plain old junction boxes.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"FWIW, I first encountered this restriction in Maryland - the Baltimore electrical inspector rejected a job where the junction boxes had been covered."I left off the adjective I usually use, "southern" Maryland.Baltimore and Anne Arundel Counties are a lot more picky from what others here tell me. Anne Arundel will not even allow home owners to get an electrical permit for their own home. I agree this insulation covering rule is subject to local interpretation.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
What about recessed can lighting?
As long as the cans are rated for contact with insulation (not all are - it's important to check the ratings for the specific light), they can be covered with insulation.
You may be correct, but I've never seen (or heard of) anyone getting "dinged" for having boxes covered by insulation.
"What do you think "boxes must remain accessible and may not be covered" means?"
It does not say that either.
"may not be covered" does not even allow the use of box covers or plates.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 4/9/2007 12:04 pm by BillHartmann
The National Electrical Code (2005) , section 314.29)"314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, And Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible. Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or,in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade."I think the question to be answered is whether insulation is considered " part of the building".As a practical matter, it is VERY time consuming to find some J-boxes now, with out having to excavate the insulation to find them.Just a thought from a practicing electrician and student of the code.Chuck
I addition to that section 100 also has definition of accessible.Hint to woodturner. I have never seen blowin insulation used as a finished surface or structural purposes..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
you believe this argument is about somrthing that sommetimes cant be help
I would argue that it is NOT necessary to install j-boxes in attics.
That doesn't make it against code though.
It's just that fat older electricians wish that the problem ( of attic j-boxes) could be helped!!!JUST A WHINE FROM A FAT OLDER ELECTRICIAN.Chuck
I would argue that it is NOT necessary to install j-boxes in attics.That doesn't make it against code though.
I agree. The question, though, is whether it's OK to cover them with insulation. In the areas I have lived and worked, the inspectors interpret the code to mean that covering a box with insulation is "rendering it inaccessible", under the theory that if you can't find it, you can't access it.
"Best practice", in my experience, is to mount the on the walls or risers in the attic so that they are not covered by insulation. The exception, of course, is boxes for light fixtures, etc. - while you could box around them or otherwise keep insulation away from them, it's not necessary to do so because they are accessible from the light fixture in the room.
I'd be really surprised to learn that an inspector anywhere would allow a junction box to be completely buried in insulation, so that it is not accessible without moving insulation. In my experience, that is a misinterpretation of the code.
"I'd be really surprised to learn that an inspector anywhere would allow a junction box to be completely buried in insulation, so that it is not accessible without moving insulation. In my experience, that is a misinterpretation of the code."Why don't your read the code and see what it says about accessibility?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Dang Bill, nice escalating finger poke in the eye.
Now we can all watch a perfectly reasonable thread, having two different and reasoned interpretations of code - by local code officials to boot - degenerate into a flame fest.
You made your point Bill, quite well in fact. It only goes down from there.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Why don't your read the code and see what it says about accessibility?
You first ;-)
FWIW, I reread NEC before I first posted, as I always do. Just because a lot of inspectors interpret NEC a particular way doesn't mean it is correct, so I like to revisit the code for myself first to make sure their argument is supportable.
Edited 4/9/2007 3:37 pm ET by woodturner9
Art. 100.1: Accessible (as applied to wiring methods.) Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
Art. 100.1: Readily accessible. Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.
Art. 314.29: Boxes, conduit bodies and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade. (exception: listed boxes and handhole enclosures shall be permitted where covered by gravel, light aggregate or non-cohesive granulated soil if their location is effectively identified and accessible for excavation.)
Art. 314.72(D): Boxes shall be installed so that the wiring is accessible without removing any part of the building.
So, I suppose it depends on whether you classify loose insulation in an attic as an obstacle, as part of the building, or neither one.
Maybe it's material used to establish "Finish Grade."
LOLSamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. For the life of me, I can't see why Prey feels safer from predators by disarming and emasculating Paladins.
I wish that they would put the same restrictions on people owning code books as they do to people buying dynamite.
The thing that kills me about this argument and many arguments regarding code and what's allowed, is that they can all be curtailed if everyone used their eyes and their brains. Instead of their mouths and their azzes to think with.
If you have to put a junction box in an attic. Put it where you can see it and work on it safely. And don't cover it up with insulation. Anybody that argues with that needs to get a MacJob. They don't belong out here. They don't deserve to be out here.
So what's your job? Sit on a fence post and crow like a Rooster when the Sheriff shows up?
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
AMEN Brother!
Unfortunately, how you or I or anyone else interprets the code doesn't matter, it's ultimately up to the AHJ.I agree with you that boxes should be placed where people can see them and work on them safely. You never know, you might be the person searching for that box in 10 or 15 years.Chuck
"You never know, you might be the person searching for that box in 10 or 15 years."
That's my thinking everytime I work on something like that.
So what's your job? Sit on a fence post and crow like a Rooster when the Sheriff shows up?
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Was at MIL's this W/E. She had a leaky tub valve she wanted fixed. I dug out all the stuff in the pantry shelf backing up to it, removed the shelf itself, and pried open the access panel, only to find NOTHING -- no shut-off valves.Before I put the panel back I wrote "No shutoff valves in here" on it with a Sharpie. Save someone half an hour next time.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Roar! That's a good idea. I wonder if the next will think your pulling his leg.
So what's your job? Sit on a fence post and crow like a Rooster when the Sheriff shows up?
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
"You never know, you might be the person searching for that box in 10 or 15 years."
Been there, done that!! People seem to suddenly decide that they want ceiling fans on the second or third day of the heat wave. Many times, I've poked my head into a hot attic and could see nothing but a sea of pink. Trying to find a wire can be an adventure, and locating a box (if there is even one up there) just adds to the fun.
When I find (or add) a box that will be buried by the insulation, I use a Sharpie to write "BOX" on a rafter, truss, etc and draw an arrow. A sparkie friend told me that he really appreciates folks doing that. - lol
I have heard of people using the little survey and untility marker flags..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I was going to mention those too, but I thought it sounded .... looney.
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
Those would probably work fine, but I try to keep my tool bucket/bag stripped to the essentials when I'm crawling in an attic and those little flags would just add to the clutter. Besides, I always have a Sharpie handy and I would have to buy those flags.
Another possible problem with the flags would be if a landscaper ever went into the attic. He might think that there's supposed to be a sprinkler head at the flag and ...................(you can imagine the rest.) - lol
Note: All landscapers please holster your guns. I'm just joking here.
I would be more worried about the cable guy that wanted to do directional boring from attic to the pole on the other side of the street..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Good catch, Bill. I never even thought about that possibility!!
Another problem might be if the roof rats use the flags to set up a miniature golf course. - lol
Congratulations.....without even knowing it, you started another one of those threads that just goes all looney
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, wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
ANOTHER one??? Has there ever been a thread (with more than three posts) that didn't "go looney"??
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
........LMAO.......
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
There are no j-boxes that will be covered. My concern is that the wiring might be derated because of the insulation.
I can't imagine that happening, Jim. Wiring in walls is "covered" with insulation and doesn't have to be derated because of that.