Replies

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Oct 13, 2002 07:15am | #1

   I make them in the shop, and lag-bolt them into the frame of the building and up into the fly rafter.  Generally they get bolted on before the exterior finish goes on, and the shingles or siding or whatever goes around them.   I generally use 4x4 for the horizontal and the diagonal, and 2x4 for the vertical piece that bolts to the house.  If you have a big building, maybe 6x6 would look better.   I've made them with full mortise and tenon joinery, which is fun, but it is faster to screw them together with lag screws or those long screws sold for landscape timbers.   After all, the things are not structural, they're decoration.  I cap the top with sheet metal, otherwise you've got wood looking up at precipitation.

1. 
   jimblodgett | Oct 13, 2002 06:04pm | #2

   Those brackets are real common here in the Pacific Northwet.  We make them all the time to match existing.  Lots of times the vertical piece is 2x4, while the diagonal and horizontal pieces are 4x4.  Other times the diagonal piece is 2x4.

   When I'm building them the way I want, when they are the only ones on a building or I'm redoing the entire house, I deviate from the old ways in the name of protecting as much endgrain from the elements as I can.

   One real nice looking detail is if all three parts are 4x4 and instead of relying on mechanical fasteners you cut the ends of the diagonal piece square and nothch the other two pieces to accept it - it only takes a couple passes with a skilsaw set at 45 degrees, and it's really a crowd pleaser, stronger too.

   Another thing I like to do is extend both the bottom of the vertical piece and the end of the horizontal piece a good bit past where they join with the diagonal.  Someone here will probably know a rule of thumb for what percentage it should extend past, but I usually experiment on the deck until the dimensions look "right".

   Sometimes I'll champer all four edges of the end of the horizontal piece.  The last house I framed with this detail I notched the ends of the horizontal pieces such that 1/2 the thickness of the fly rafter has a shoulder to rest on as it crosses the beam, but these brackets were 6 ft wide and had a few rafters - still used diagonal braces instead of posts though, looks great.

   That's it.  I'm going to order that scanner today.  I have several photos of these details that speak a lot more clearly than I do.

   Brinkmann for president in '04

1. 
   georgeolivergo | Oct 14, 2002 03:16am | #3

   Jeff,

   we build these knees (we call em knees) similarly to Jim (we're in the same part of the country). on our current job I just made a set of these, we have them projecting 5" past the 2x10 bargeboard/fly rafter and chamfered on the end of the 4x4 horizontal brace. We'll flash the top of the brace that projects past the 2' overhang.

   I mitered the ends of the diagonal 4x4 brace and nerped the end points, so each end of the diagonal is square. I think this is an easier way to slot the diagonal into the horizontal and 2x4 vertical -- 1" mortise on the horizontal brace and 3/4" on the vertical.

   The reveal for lack of a better word between the end of the horizontal/vertical braces and the edge of the mortise depends on how big you make your brace and if you want the diagonal/vertical/horizontal angles to be 45 degrees (which in general I think you do). It varies on the ones I built b/c we have different size knees but in general it's about 6". You can chamfer the bottom end of the vertical brace but you have to balance the depth of the chamfer with the thickness of your siding.

   Wish I had a picture! Anyway, good luck.

   best, GO

1. 
   JeffUpNorth | Oct 14, 2002 06:17pm | #4

   Thanks for the sharing the experiences. As always a very helpful forum.

   Jeff Up North

1. 
   Stray | Oct 16, 2002 07:28pm | #5

   Has anyone ever attached these to an existing building, as a way of extending/creating the gable overhang?

   I'm re-roofing a 50's era ranch next summer, and wondered about adding these braces to extend the roof out 24" (currently no overhang on the gable end whatsoever). Would obviously have to add the fly rafter/ decking, etc... as well. In this case, they would be structural to hold the gable overhang up.

   I had wondered about scribing the vertical to the existing 5" exposure claps, but would probably cut the siding to accomodate the brackets to sit on the sheathing instead.

   Is this like puttin' a dress on a pig? (appologies to anyone that actually likes 50's ranch details). anyone pulled off this sort of design modification?

   Thanks.

2. 
   ken1putt | Oct 16, 2002 09:07pm | #6

   Stray -

   If you pull this off, please post some pics. I live in a 70s split foyer that has no overhang on the gables.

   We recently resided it with cypress over the old T-111, and it will soon be time for a new roof. One of the things I've thought about doing is extending the roof deck a ways to get an overhang. Brackets might make this old pig of a house look pretty good. (Or overdressed, LOL)

   Putting on cypress with a coating of natural Men-Wood has transformed the place.

   K-

   -

   Writing is the only profession where no one considers you ridiculous if you earn no money. -- Jules Renard

3. 
   georgeolivergo | Oct 17, 2002 03:54am | #7

   Stray, we've done what you described on a kitchen/dining room addition to a 50's ranch/colonial (sorry, my terms probably aren't scientific). It looked fine but I think it was in the context of the overall remodel, if you just add the overhang and knees with no other changes to the house mass it might look funny.

   is your ranch a two story or split level? I guess where I'm from a ranch usually is one story so I'm having trouble visualizing.

   one other thing I didn't mention before, we sometimes mount the knee not directly to the wall but onto a 1x trim piece on the wall, so the siding butts to this, not to the vertical of the knee, it depends on what part of the gable you're bracing up.

   best, GO

4. 
   jimblodgett | Oct 17, 2002 04:58am | #8

   I wouldn't hesitate to add brackets to support an overhang, that's what they did originally.  Make sure to lag them to studs, though - I wouldn't count on just the sheathing to resist bowing under that much weight.  I'd be counting on getting some help from the fascia too, might even change that over to 2x material.  And, of course, don't forget why colonial homes didn't traditionally have overhangs - snow loads.

   One thing to be careful of design wise would be the slope of the roof.  If you guys are talkin' about putting brackets on a 4/12, or 5/12 roof, that could look a bit odd unless you have the right look to the brackets themselves...you got a pretty specific look with those low slope roofs...pretty period specific (post 1960?)...you'd have to be careful what style brackets you put on a building like that.

   Brinkmann for president in '04

5. 
   Stray | Oct 17, 2002 06:14pm | #9

   Go,

   It's 2 stories as you approach the house, due to a full walk out basement on that side. It's one story at the other gable end.

   Jim,

   You make a good point about the slope making an aesthetic difference. My slope is 6 or 7/12, and I worried if I could pull off the look. Maybe I'll do a carboard mock-up and stick it up there to look at first.

6. 
   Piffin | Oct 19, 2002 06:16am | #11

   here's something on an otherwise pretty plain building with some craftsman type detailing. Just a little inspiration.

   There's some others showing on #16.

   Excellence is its own reward!

   
7. 
   Ragnar17 | Oct 17, 2002 10:45pm | #10

   I do the majority of my work on Craftsman houses in the NW.  Most of the old brackets I've encountered were made from 6x stock on the horizontal, 2x stock for the vertical, and 4x or 5x stock for the diagonal brace.  Many also had the brace set at about 30 degrees to the horizontal (as opposed to 45).  It looks nice and you might want to consider it to make your own house a little more unique.  Also, there were typically cosmetic blocks added for effect, just to get away from the stereotypical structural brace.  I'll see if I can figure out how to send you a photo to illustrate this option.

   It's kind of humorous to note, too, that every single one of the old braces I've seen was constructed NOT with mortise and tenon joinery or the like, but simple toenailing using 16d casing nails.  Definitely not as strong and durable, but it highlights the way we all want to over-engineer things these days.