Finally starting to put some tools together to start doing more custom work, built-ins, cabinets and such. Wanted to see others opinions on Craftsman shop tools such as planers, jointers, router tables, etc. They are cheaper then the other tool companies for the most part and seem built just as well. Thanks for any info.
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You would do well to look elsewhere. Their hand tools are still renowned. But their power tools are knockoffs and also rans.
Many of their tools are made by othe companies and relabeled for Sears. Many of their power tools are made by Ryobi and sell under the Sears name for about ten dollars more than you would pay for the same Ryobi tool.
FWIW, My experience with Ryobi leads me to love the saying, "Friends don't let friends drive Ryobi"
but Sears does sell other brands of tools and sometimes on sale at a decent price.
Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, you can get a Skil 77 monikered "Craftsman" for $10 less than the one labelled "Skil", if you can stand to bring a tool to the jobsite that says Craftsman on it!
Pif- The only Craftsman mechanics tools I could ever stand to continue to buy is their sockets and wrenches, and then only because they'll give you a new one when they fail. Their ratchets are the worst pieces of crap I have ever used, excepting the Chinese and East Indian stuff which is throw-away. Craftsman ratchets have very unreliable pawl locks and too few teeth. I've gone in and traded for new ones, but why, when you're getting the same sh*t you started with?
Ken Hill
Its true the craftsman ratchets slip nine times out of ten. Many of times i have used them and walked away with bloody knuckles. I have found that the majority of the time the ratchet is just dirty inside. One trick that seems to work is to hold the ratchet in your hand and spray wd 40 around the piece that the socket attaches to until it pools. Rotate the ratchet round and round switching it from foward to reverse. You would be amazed at the black gunk that comes out of it. Do this three or four times on both sides including spraying around the release button. I have found this almost always fixes the slipping without taking it apart. It only takes a few seconds and your back to business.
so what do you use for ratchets? I sold my Snap-Ons and bought Kobalt a few years ago. Big mistake!!!!
I will be going back to Snap-On over the next few years.
Wet Head-
I still have the f*cking Crapsman ratchets and mutter "wnat a total POS" every time I use them. Just haven't managed to get around to replacing them.
Yeah, I've had these (Craftsman) ever since my last set of mechanics' tools were stolen about eight years ago. THAT set I had had since 1969 when I was 17. Those were New Britain, which is now sold as NAPA. They were pretty good tools, and occasionally I would break a socket or universal, go in to any NAPA store, and get a free replacement, no questions asked.
I'm considering getting the NAPA again, afraid of what it may cost (!!!) to go the Snap On route. Suggestions?
Ken Hill
Six years ago I got into a job and the business owner I was doing the work for said he didn't have the funds to pay the entire bill, but he did have a Sears charge card. Would I take take some tools to pay the balance? At the time I needed a smaller compressor for interior work. Had him charge an oil free twin stack compressor on his card. (Thought about a new T.V. too) I've ran the damn thing hard since that time and it just won't die. I can't justify getting a new different brand until mine goes away. Where are those tool theives when you really do need em.
I kinda of figured that would be the response. My grandfather and uncle owned mostly Craftsman tools for their shops, I guess back in the day they didn't have many choices. Believe me, I always try to buy the best I can, but sometimes because the price is lower or it isn't what the carpenters have on the jobsite doesn't make it better/worse then what else is out there.
The other issue with Craftsman is parts. Many are not available whereas tools like the Unisaw or Porter Cable's Model 100 and 690 routers have been around for ages and parts are readily available. Price certainly matters but it shouldn't be your sole consideration. There's a sign hanging up above the 2nd floor counter at Seven Corners Hardware- " If price were the only thing, we'd all be driving Yugos." If you've ever used a Bosch 1587 or a Milwaukee 6266-21 jigsaw after using a Craftsman; the difference is so clear. Reconditioned tools can save you big money and they have the manufacturer's full new tool warranty. Check out Tool Crib/Amazon or your local factory service center (DeWalt, Porter Cable, Milwaukee) for recon tools. Used are another alternative.
Edited 4/21/2003 10:51:36 PM ET by jc
Until a few years ago, Craftsman stationary tools (table saws, etc.) were made under contract by Emerson Electric. The contract is now held by Ryobi. Faced with the loss of marketing power of Sears, Emerson repackaged their tools in orange and are now sold as Ridgid at Home Depot. Costs have been cut all around in these lines, as Sears and HD want to boost profits - they're retailers, not tool manufacturers. Ridgid is as good as Craftsman was 5-10 years ago. But IMHO, they still don't compare to our elders' Craftsmans. I think they have been overly "consumerized", instead of targeting the contractors and tradesmen as Craftsman did 20+ years ago.
Most of my Sears power tools, I've had for over 5 years. Today, I doubt I'd even look at a Craftsman tool with a power cord attached. I'll consider Ridgid for some tools. I have a shop vac and 10" miter saw, no complaints. But more and more I'm looking at other brands. In fact, I'm considering getting a 14" bandsaw, and I'm gonna be looking hard at Grizzly. For the starting price of a Ridgid, and even more so a Delta, I can have a pretty complete setup with riser block, mobile base, etc. Haven't heard anything bad about them, but I haven't really researched it yet.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
Pita,
Go over to knots and search your grizzly bandsaw, I have seen a lot of discussion over there about bandsaws lately.
View ImageGo Jayhawks..............Next Year and daaa. Blues View Image
Actually where I first got the idea. I was thinking "Gee I really need to save for that Delta" and forgot all about that inch thick catalogue I have. Will be doing more reading over the next few days, just enough time for Uncle Sam to give me (back) the money to pay for it.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
While true in generalization, there have been a number of exceptions. we used to get a "pro" line here, and, if you were careful and regularly read the sale flyers, you could get some excellent tools at great prices. E.G. I have a Sawzall, a Drillzall, and a 7.25 circular saw all made by Milwaukee, and a Ryobi RE600 router, all with Sears logos on them at roughly 25 cents on the dollar during Sears sales.
.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
In past years, I'll say pre-1975, I used a lot of Sears and Montgomery-Ward (now-defunct) tools, Dad and Grandad used them and, in those days of yore, they were generally a pretty solid purchase.
I know better now, but as recently as a couple years ago, I still was inclined to give Sears a shot...I bought a 14" bandsaw....and a lawnmower....and a shopvac.
The bandsaw, patterned after the old Rockwell or Turner, is an absolutely miserable piece of underpowered junk with the poorest set of guides I've ever seen in my life. And the blades are of a unique length that means either custom order, weld up my own, or buy from Sears very limited selection. Someday, I'll give it to somebody I'm POed at.
The lawnmower was a throw-away.
The Shopvac is actually pretty strong, but comes with a hose that is like using flexible drainpipe.
Sears handtools have changed, too. The old Craftsman wrenches and sockets I used in my millwright days are thinwalled and strong, like the old Proto or Plumb, while the newer ones are thickwalled clubs. So what if they have a good warrantee if they won't get into tight spots when you need them to.
And the Sears service department, at least in my area, is a disgrace.
Sears has seen my last dollar.
Hey there...seems to be a lot of Ryobi slamming lately. Bunch of tool snobs around here...lol. To be honest I am very happy with my Ryobi 18V combo kit (circ. saw, drill, recip saw, flashlight). .
Now, to qualify, I'm not a contractor nor a professional in the construction industry. Therefore I do not expect contractor performance out of these tools. I'm a do-it-your-selfer and have gutted and re-finished 2 kitchens so far, framed and wired one garage, plus numerous other renos in my 2 properties, using my Ryobi tools for a lot of it. (okay, so the garage has a noticeable slant to it and I can't open and close my kitchen cabinets....ha ha)
IMO, $249 CDN (that's like $75US) for the kit has paid for itself many times over. I mean really, at that price, if I get 3 or 4 good years out of it without a large cash output as would be required with some of the contractor tools, I'm laughing. The frickin batteries retail for $120 and I got 2 with the kit.
A co-worker with the same Ryobi kit just dropped his 18V circular saw off his roof, 12 feet onto a concrete sidewalk and it works like it did the first day.
IMO, if you're going to consider Craftsman, maybe give Ryobi a second look. The one writer was correct in stating that a lot of the Craftsman tool are made by Ryobi. Be realistic with the needs of your equipment and make a decision. If you're like alot of the FHB readers, we don't use these tools to earn an income and can probably get satisfactory results with something at a better price point.
But that's just me...
Mike
Weekend warriors is the market for Ryobi tools.
No offense meant to you but the only reason you are happy with them is that you have never used real tools side by side with Ryobis. When your livlihood depends on your tools, you want the real thing..
Excellence is its own reward!
Isn't that fairly ignorant of you to assume I have never used 'real tools'??
So my PC blade left circ. saw doesn't count? Or my Delta contractor table saw WITH Biesemeyer fence? Or my Bosch 3/8 and 1/2 hammer drill (corded)? The PC brad nailer and compressor I have don't really count I guess as Ryobi doesn't make them I don't think.
I do have both a PC and a Ryobi router but I got the Ryobi with a table for el cheapo. Lets be real here - the PC cuts through stock like a hot knife through butter. The Ryobi has been great for little jobs like rounding over my stair nosing.
Oh ya, I forgot about the time I used my friend's Ryobi portable table saw when putting down a sub-floor in the kitchen. It was so much more convenient than running out to the garage to use the Delta.
Needless to say, offence taken in regards to the ignorance. I DO drool every time I walk by the PC section or the Milwaukee, or the Delta, or the Hitachi sliding miter, or the DeWalt display. And there is nothing like the feel of a well built piece of equipment. Look at the problems I'm having with my Craftsman mitre saw (see string).
As I said in my original message, I don't use these tools 40 hours a week like some of you (perhaps I'm a little envious of that!!). Whenever I spot a good deal though, I treat myself to something nice.
MG,
I think you have a good idea of where to spend the money and where second best is fine, and that is a good thing! I frame homes professionally, and even then, there are some times that buying top of the line isn't justified. Like our air impact wrench, a $25 Harbor freight cheapie that we've had for ten years, never gets oiled, and never been broke--it only gets used about one hour a week though.
Or take my cordless B&D 14.4-volt tool kit. Up until recently, it has done very well, even though I voided the warranty the second day I had it by using it on the job. (I think spending the winter in the back of my truck killed the batteries.) I do envy my boss's 18 volt DW kit, but I paid $200 for mine and he paid nearly $600 for his.
As far as Craftsman tools go, some are good, some are great, and some suck. I would stay away from any Craftsman power or air tool, but most of the hand tools are very robust for the price, and the warrranty is definitely good. In fact my favorite framing hammer is a 24-oz. wood handle; the milled face is a lot more durable than ANY Estwing framing hammer's.
Well, if you want to go and get all dis-turbed, and take offense where none is meant, be my guest.
But since you asked, no - I din't think that it's all that ignorant of me. I'm going based on clues you provided in you statements and comparissons to my experiences with Ryobi tools and what I've heard from other Ryobi tool owners and ex Ryobians to reach that conclusion.
Wrong it may be, but not ignorant. I'm well aware of Ryobi's capabilities and limitations, maybe more so than you.
But that's OK, you'll learn.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Piffin, sorry about that last message. For some reason I thought you had made an assumption. I hadn't realized you were able to cleverly read between the lines and decipher the content of my message. Didn't I say I used the Ryobi tools 'a lot' of the time not 'all' of the time?
Now I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you are in fact a pro and work with your tools every day. I don't know how it works in the US but here in Canada tools and materials purchased to earn an income are considered business expenses and would be considered a write-off. If those greedy pigs at Revenue Canada let me write off tools for my reno jobs, I'd be more inclined to buy the big ticket items exclusively.
No hard feelings, my friend. Just wanted to set a couple things straight.
Mike
Yeah, maybe I am grouchy and mis-directed here.
I do lose patience with tools that are designed more like some fishing tackle (intended to separate the fisherman from his money rather than separating the fish from the water) than like workhorses.
And sometimes I put too much value on my well refined intuition.
Let us now go forth and make sawdust..
Excellence is its own reward!
Sawdust indeed - no hard feelings. Chances are I'll be picking your brain down the road at some point! Thanks for the tips so far.
Mike
MG,
May I just say that proper technique and regular tool maintenance will make up for a lot of "deficiences" of the lower quality tools. I still have some of the projects I made over 10 years ago with a HD-bought handsaw and a Craftsman 20 oz hammer. (I was 9 or 10 at the time.) And I still have both those tools, in mint shape. In fact the hammer is my "fine finish hammer." Good luck to you and have some fun.
Thanks Cap, you're absolutely right about maintaining your tools. I'm no expert on this topic but I think unless you have an unlimted budget, one has to pick and choose on where to invest his(her) money on equipment. I'm enjoying my reno's so far and have been getting some great advice from this forum.
Mike
Piff
I think yer gettin' grouchy....lol.
Now if I'd have come onto that guy like you did you might say I was bein' insensitive. LOL
You owe him an apology for being insensitive to a DIY'er new to breaktime you animal...lol
Hope all is well with you!
Be a feminine side
Namaste
andrea
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Psssssssssssssssst.....
Ya ever notice how "older" people tend to be a bitch touchy and grouchy......
well..........
think about it, you have your answer lol..Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
Neil 4
Thank god I have the Peter Pan Syndrome.....may have some down sides but I spect to live and build till I'm a 100 unless I get hit by a vitamin truck.
Geez....lI'm twicde yer age plus two years and bet we could party pretty good together next time your in NY
Be imature : )))
Namaste
Peter
PS....Just landed a job with a big news reporter on channel 7 here in NY.
Think I might pitch the Piff and Andy Show cept he's gettin' kinda grouchy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
what kind of smoke you got coming out of that teepe :)
Maybe we could party pretty good lol
I read the prolouge "warning to the reader" part to the book the other day, and decided my mind was definatly not up to the task until school was out lol.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
Neil 4,
I have a feeling book reviewers wanna act intellignt. I couldnt get past too many pages nor could my wife, and she graduated 4 years of Parsons here in NY and was "almost" famous...lol (illustrator....water colors).
I need a book to entertain me not make me think I'm doing my thesis which was what that book actually was for Matt.
Let me know whatcha think after school or I'll letcha know after I get back from moving my Mom in Florida next week.
PS....If ya wanna know what smokes comin' outta the tipi stop by.
Shoot me your phone number and I'll give ya a ringy dingy
Be confused
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Buy the best tools you can find -- most Craftsman stuff is closer to junk than tools today.
Buy the best because you will use them for a life time. Consider buying used -- if you can buy better. In 1969 I bought a used Powermatic 12 " planner that was build sometimes in the 1950's -- I just did some tune up on it today and it is still going strong. I have a pre - WWII 6 inch joiner that is also still great. One place to look for high quality used tools is used equipment dealers that have gotten the tools that school systems have sold off as they have shut down their shop programs. Equipment dealers are not cheap but these can be very good tools.
I know I am hard on Craftsman tools -- but I have watched them go from good to fair to junk over the last 40 years. I grew up on Sears stuff -- and many of my Dad's tools were Craftsman -- in fact my brother still has Dad's old 8" table saw. But Sears just keeps finding someone to make them cheaper and cheaper.
You don't have to have every tool on day one -- keep looking, keep saving and keep buying the best you can get -- good tools last more than a life time.
Oh, my new 175 pound anvil cost, about $ 800 and it may last 5 lifetimes.
deblacksmith
It's hit or miss at Sears with the power tools. It is possible to get a decent tool there, but you have to do your homework and go in with a specific make and model in mind based on a magazine review. Most of their power tools are pretty junky.
I read a magazine review of several different shop vacs about five years ago. The craftsman shop vac scored very close to the top, and got the best value award. I bought it, and it has served me well. Very powerful, not as painfully loud as some others, but still pretty loud, and it's got a large diameter (but stiff) hose that just doesn't clog.
My brother got me a drill press (a large floor standing model) from Sears as a present. It does the job, but the fit and finish are not so great, and the belt cover vibrates like crazy, making a loud buzzing noise. If you ignore the buzzing noise, it's a nice tool.
I bought a lawnmower from Sears, and it wouldn't start after I used it 5 times, so I hosed it down, and returned it. Five hours of use, and the hunk of junk wouldn't start! They tried to tell me that I had to take it to the service department to be worked on, but the thing was still brand new and shiny. They finally agreed to take it back. Fortunately I hadn't thrown away my ugly, rusted, old, smoke belching, oil burning Toro, which still starts on the second pull. That was two summers ago, and I'm still using the 20+ year old Toro.
My socket wrench set from Sears is pretty good. I also have an old Sears lathe that's nice too, but it's probably 30 years old.
So, the moral is that Sears makes a lot of junk, but if you do your homework and take your time, you can sometimes find decent things there. You just can't rely on the brand name.
About Sears' mechanic tools, they're also contracted. Until a few years ago, Stanley (they own MAC, Proto, Husky) had the contract. Now Danaher (MatCo, Allen) has the contract, since 1994 or so.
Lowe's Kobalt brand is/was made by Williams, a division of Snap-On. They are now (or shortly will be) made by Danaher, supposedly to the same specs as the Williams/Snap-On Kobalt. The Kobalt tools boxes are/will be made by Waterloo, not sure if that is the same as before, or if they were also previously SnapOn/Williams.
Home Depot's Husky tools as mentioned above are Stanley owned. I seem to also remember seeing a lot of Ridgid brand hand tools at HD lately, I'll assume for the moment they're made by Ridgid (Ridge Tool Co., Emerson Electric division) and not just a licensing thing.
Some of this is what I've heard over the years, but I must credit that much information has come from
http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/whotools.html
If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
I noticed the neighborhood Sears parts/repair store nearby (it's separate from their large retail boxes) always has several refurbished Sears "Skill" saws for around $130.
Exactly the same as a Skill 77.
If I ever need a worm-drive for some serious cutting that's what I'll get to bang around.
Well, if you watch the sale prices at the tool stores and big box building supplies, from time to time the real deal "77" will be sold brand new from the factory for around $130, and not a reconditioned tool.
Personally, I watch for those "loss leader" sales and buy 2 or 3.
re- from time to time the real deal "77" will be
sold brand new from the factory for around $130, and not a reconditioned tool.
----
Well, that's good to know and certainly would be the obvious choice.
Thanks for mentioning that.
very interesting post. thank you sir!
Hey Pita
Ridgid tools at HD are the biggest hunks O junk I ever bought. Nough said! Throw away tools at not a cheap price and as far as Crapsman tools go.....well maybe good for a beginner with no bucks but you out there that are getting serious step up at least one level to tools made in good ol' Japan such as Makita. Then when you get REAL serious....
Try Ebay...I got great deals there!
Be slanted,
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
First you gotta think about how often you will use the tool. You don't need a 1500 dollar jointer if you only joint boards every other year.
Think in 5 to 10 year increments. For 35 bucks you can put an ad in the local newspaper and sell tools to upgrade. If you pool all of your money for tools there is nothing left for wood. Nothing brings a sneer to my lips faster than a shop without sawdust packed in the corners. I don't classify that collector as a woodworker. That category is for collector. Those that can do, those that can't collect.
If you are a professional making your living at construction the rules change a bit, because your professional talents will probably be hampered by substandard equipment. Let your budget be your guide. Value is the goal.
You can easily upgrade. Just make sawdust along the way.
Well put my friend.
i started in the cabinetry trade 20 years ago with all craftsman tools, most only lasted a year or so, just were'nt designed for continuous use, they're fine for the homeowner who just plays around on a saturday morning
buy the best you can afford, they'll be more accurate, last longer and be much more rewarding to use
most craftsman tools are cheaper versions of ryobi tools, ie lower quality motors, switches, accessories.
even had the suspician that craftsman tools were ryobi seconds
I have found Craftsman's hand tools (sockets, wrenches, pliers, screwdrivers, etc) to all be top notch. While I have a 10" Craftsman radial saw that's over 10 years old, which is great, most all other Craftsman power tools (circular saws, jigsaws, routers, palm and sheet sanders) that I have or have seen are in my estimation far inferior to the Porter-Cables and Boschs of the world, although they are normally less expensive. I don't think I will ever buy another Craftsman electric power tool.