Many of you have graciously answered questions about this wacky idea I had of digging my crawlspace out and making it basement. Well here is a picture of the house sitting up on posts. Should be pouring a foundation fairly soon.
MERC
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
This time-tested installation method for flangeless windows ensures smooth operation and provides air, water, and vapor control.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
That looks scary, work fast and get them block in there.
It's actually going to be an ICF foundation (PolySteel). We still have a little more digging to do and then some footings. Oh yeah, I still gotta permits too....
MERC
I'm curious: How do you pour concrete into the forms when there is already a house sitting on top of them? It seems like the existing framing would get in the way of pouring and finishing.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
The way I'm redoing the house, I actually only have to pour into forms with framing on top of it for about 25' out of 115' feet of new foundation. The engineer says we will just cut a 2" diameter hole in the side of the polysteel form and pump it in with a maco (sp?) pump.
And for those who are all worked up about the bracing, it's going in probably tomorrow or Friday. We need one more day of digging and then things should be clear. The way the bracing goes, it will be in the way of the equipment. So hold tight, I'll post a picture of the "safe, professional" bracing of the house.
MERC
DJ
Just wear your hardhat, everything will be ok.
You still alive or did the house fall on ya?
Yep everything is still standing. I got some horizontal bracing in, but it doesn't seem necessary to me. I just did it to make all the nay-sayers feel better. I'll post some more pictures once we start stacking the ICFs.
MERC
Oh yeah, I still gotta permits too....
Have you taken care of this little detail yet? How have the inspections been going? You are confident enough in the way you are handling this project to subject it to the scrutiny of your code officials aren't you? Doing this job legally should be no problem at all if your right about your engineer's calculations.
You allege that your engineer has staked both his life and yours on his calculations. That is a lot of confidence, which tells me he knows something that is not readily apparent to the rest of us who have sincere concerns for your welfare. Given his life-on-the line level of confidence, the engineer on this project should be more than willing to add his name-on-the-line confidence to any documentation the city requires to make this legal.
Please, if you are still illegally conducting this job, with the hands on assistance of your engineer friend no less, do yourself and his career both a favor and get the paperwork and requisite inspections taken care of now.
When you can show that your city code officials have inspected and endorsed this project, I will gladly concede that you and your engineer are fully within the limits of your capabilities. Until then, you are just coming off like a driver who doesn't know he's had a few too many, carelessly gambling that you'll make it home just fine without killing someone.
Maybe you will and maybe you won't but don't expect anyone here to be too thrilled about someone illegally risking lives and bragging about it. Get a permit, submit this project to the proper inspections and the critics will go away. Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
your picture looks so scary you (and I dont want to sound rude but ) you cant know enough to do what your doing . It looks extreamly unprofessoinal and unsafe. I wouldnt go down under there for anything. I really dont mean to be insulting. im sorry if I sound that way.
Sorry you don't feel safe with it. I feel so safe with it, I'd move my bed in down there. I know what I'm doing. I have an engineer cruise by every few days and he looks around and checks things out. Heck, he's gonna be down there stacking ICFs with the boys, so he must believe too. And this is good engineer, not just some idiot I found.
No guts, no glory.
MERC.
Like I said Im not trying to put anyone down it just looks scary. At this stage I would stack up blocking at several spots lets say 8in x 8in by 2ft long blocks, all I see is up and down support , no back and forth ,sway , the wall attached to the house is probibly enough but I would want more . and enginers are great and all that and im not sure but I seem to remember seeing some buildings, bridges, dams and even the roof of a football stadium I think in Mass. that collapsed and Im sure they wernt designed by some lowly carpenter like myself. Id rather take the common sense route.
This engineer signed and sealed plans for this work? Provided all of the permitting back-up? That picture really looks unsafe. I would love to know what the 2x4's are supposed to be doing wedged between the house and dirt. They have no capacity to act as supports....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
at your funeral do you want flower tributes or a donation to your favourite charity?
I'll bring wiskey to the wake
I can't afford the idemnity insurance required to sign off on something like that
Bud, I've moved houses, raised them, lowered them all over B.C. You, as I can see from the pic, don't have any cribbing or the proper cribbing under that building. Don't B.S. me, there's not an engineer in this country that would approve that and W.C.B. would shut you down too. You best get done before your reported. No guts No glory more like no brains.
Do you know Colin Sutherland?
come on man..........at least block up those outside corners. Do it like the house movers do it..............It looks like if someome were to bump the corner as is it would go down..........f the engineer....be safe.
Go for it!, I love basement digouts, had to do one for old time sake a couple years back, first time in 40's with Pop carrying (sure it was a little bucket) buckets of dirt out to trailer.
Re the scarry cats -- methinks what everybody looks at is the dark pix with 2X4 "posts" and don't bother to fix your pix.
Pasted pix into photo ed and brightened, can see that the back is a conc. block shear wall, 4x4 posts under 4X10s. and off to the far right what looks like some more triangular shear reinforcement.
Good luck.
Looks "sorta" safe to me as long as you don't mind taking a bit of a chance.
My guess it's not goin' anywhere,although I'd personally have braced it up differently but I overdo things usually. Seen too much go wrong and people get hurt over the smallest miscalculation.
Anyway..good luck and have fun
Be safe
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I guess im not the only wimp that thinks it looks unsafe. Be brave now, cry later when somthing goes wrong.
woof, dogboy (Big Dog)
Here I lightned it up a little for you.
Who Dares Wins.
Yeah, here's a current picture. Nice and bright.
MERC
Folks should 'lighten up' on you a bit too. That is just a one story structure. Houses weigh less than folks imagine, and wood is much stronger in compression than one might think.
I think that you should ask your engineer friend just what his degree covers. Is it perhaps polymers engineering, or maybe industrial engineering?
Has he, and have you, never heard of diagonal bracing? Man, when I build just about anything, it has diagonals (or otherwise proper sheer walls) in it, in every direction, on every side.
Your most recent picture looks just as bad as the previous one. It looks like a good wind would rock the house off of those silly looking stilts. And like a good rain would wash out the posts. Stay out from under there, and get some qualified help.
And BTW, both pics look like there is still furniture inside. I seriously hope that you are staying out.
I'm prayin' for ya.Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
Oh yea, you're really over killing that bracing now. You shouldn't have any problem pulling a permit, which is something you really need to do before you move another shovel of dirt. Getting busted without a permit on a project like that one will add some real painful numbers to the overhead.
Just take that photo and a note from your engineer with you when you apply. I'm sure that the Building Department will stop whatever they are doing and sign off on your project in a heartbeat.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Hey Wrecked Angle,
You're a real work of art. I got a good howl out of your post on this thread. I've been staying out of this because I'm not a wood stick framer, but neither is this my first rodeo.
I'm glad those of you who have "done that been there", are clueing this poor guy in on some common sense and sound and safe building practices.
This house and the work going on under it are just a back wreck waiting to happen. Please do this guy a big favor and don't let up on him until he gets some qualified help to stop buy and check out his worksite. It just may save some lives.
A second thought on this subject perhaps worth mentioning is if any of you out there in BT reading this thread have some buddy who is a professional house mover or structural engineer, give them a link to this thread and have them post their thoughts here.
Cork (hoping nobody gets killed on this jobsite) in Chicago.
Well, I'm having a hard time figuring out if this guy is for real or if IMERC found these pictures somewhere, created a new persona, and decided to mess with everyone.
DJ Merc is gonna be right up there with Orwell's "War of the Worlds" prank if he is pulling our legs. If he's not... well, I share your concern that he's just going to be "up there" with Orwell pretty soon - wherever that is. :-0
Edit: make that Orson Well's not Orwell's - Duh! http://www.transparencynow.com/welles.htm
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Edited 12/16/2003 7:48:49 PM ET by Wrecked Angle
HEY!!!
Don't get me mixed up in that mess. I'm staying out of it. Way out of it. States away out of it.
Now on your knees for saying that.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
He, he, he... Just try and make me! I studied that last picture, built a similarly designed horizontal brace around both knees, and can state with confidence that you aint big enough to knock me over now! :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Okay dude...
If think your feeble attempt at humor by taking a cheap shot is going to cut it. Think twice.
You have a meaness streak under the guise of humor that seems to know no bounds. You call it humor - I call it unhappiness and the big / little man complex. Time to reign it in.
Shall we get into your methods and behavior with others. Even how you treat the ones that help.
Stand down.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
That wasn't a cheap shot - apparently it cost me the respect of a man I hold in the highest regard. Nothing more expensive than that.
It probably won't hold much weight but the way you took that was the farthest thing from my mind. Never-the-less, I do appreciate your candor and apologize for the offense.
You eluded to a negative perception of the way I've handled others as well. Folks, I hang out here a lot and the last thing I want is to have people reading me like IMERC did on this one.
It's easy to be careless with humor, especially if you use it as much as I do. If I've ever come off like that to any one else on this site, who has not already let me know it, I would genuinely like to hear from you - privately of course.
Not looking for a fight, just an opportunity to see myself through other's eyes and adjust my prescription as required. - thanks.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Isn't that box still attached to a larger structure? If so, wouldn't that tend to prevent most of the side to side motion and supply the needed racking?
I still don't like the long posts sitting on top of jacks, it just seems like a really weak setup, wouldn't take much movement to have one kick out and start a chain reaction. I'd rather see solid posts or better yet, stacks of cribbing.
Sorry DJ Merc,
But I'm going to have to be blunt with you here. YOUR OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!!!!
You just may get away with your "project" and not get anybody killed but I wouldn't bet on it.
FIRST, nothing you are doing to this house is worth killing anyone over.
SECOND, You're claiming you put the "horizontal bracing" on just to satisfy the critics. Let me clue you in: the power of wind against your house is something just not to be believed. Your house is nothing but a huge sail. I've personally witnessed a heavy gust of wind get under some 6 mil. plastic laying under #5 rebar on 12 inch centers, steel doweled in 2 x 10's. This whole form for a large concrete pour including all the steel had to weigh in the area of 15 to 20 thousand lbs. The wind grabbed ahold of that huge mass and sent it up into the air just like someone was pulling a beadsheat off of a huge bead. Then it all came crashing down from about 100 ft. up in the air. Scared the hell out of me and about 25 other men who were about to walk out on it to pour the concrete.
THIRD, Have you ever actually been on a jobsite and watched one of the men you work with die from a bad accident. I've seen cranes go down, I've seen cranes go down onto hi voltage power lines, I've seen mud buckets being worked by a crane, snag heavy steel joists and drop the joist onto the finishing crew I was with, I've seen men fall through "trap doors", and hit the ground 100 ft. below, I've seen cranes loose tilt panel walls, I've seen a man run over by Cat D9. None of this was pretty and most made me want to puke or punch s!it out of person who caused accident. What I'm trying to say is nothing you are doing is worth you dying over, or getting someone else killed.
Please do the your life a favor and call in an expert to look at this situation.
Trying to be helpful and perhaps save someone's life.
Also trying not to offend,
Cork in Chicago.
You gotta be nuts..what is keeping the little jacks from kicking the post out? reminds me of ol Clint..."Son? you belive in God?"
Do I recognize three bright red Norco bottle jacks in this picture? Possibly the 12 ton ones?
One important rule of lifting is never to leave anything supported on hydraulics any longer than it takes to get solid cribbing and shims or screw jacks under it. Are the bottles really holding anything, or are they just posed for the picture to make it look scarier?
-- J.S.
DJ it sounds like youve been getting it kinda hard from everyone , tell me if im wrong but it looks like you dont do this kind of project much. I dont do this kind of stuff myself and my comments earler are only from seeing other foundation jobs some with only one wall removed and even those guys set up cribing topped with beams. and ive used bottle jacks a lot to jack up porch roofs decks etc. and they always settle so ive never been able to leave them over night. The way i look at it I try to only do stuff I know about or I find help from those that do and i try to only use good people thet have shown me they know what there doing . mostly obsesive people that are over kill / extreamly careful and that helps me sleep without fear at nite that i havent done anything stupid. woof
Sounds like a lot of varied opinions on DJMerc's aggressive evacuation.
Some claiming he should be able to get away with it, some saying he might be able to get away with it, some saying he should evacuate immediately, himself, not the dirt.
It's starting to sound like a crapshoot over success or obituary.
DJMerc, what is your own synopsis of the viewpoints given here?
My understanding is that one of the principles of building engineering is to provide redundancy in the structure. That is, it should be built in such a way that if one component fails, its neighbors can bear the added strain.
In that light, setting aside the possibility (even likelihood) of lateral strain from wind, there can't be enough supports to provide redundancy. As someone said above, if one prop fails, the rest are likely to follow suit.
Someone else said above that buildings don't weigh "that much." How much is enough to crush someone? I would think the momentum of even as little as 100 lbs would be enough to put the lights out. Surely that room's got to weigh a couple tons or so.
Rez, it's not so much a crap shoot as disbelief and an attempt to convey the gravity of the risk involved with the situation.
When you are assessing the risk of an operation like DJMerc's you ask yourself two questions:
what are the consequences or impact of something going wrong? pick one 1 Insignificant – no injury or low financial loss 2 Minor – First aid treatment or medium financial loss 3 Moderate – emergency room treatment or high financial loss 4 Major – Extensive injuries (extended hospital stay), loss of earning potential, major financial loss 5 Catastrophic – Death, huge financial loss
what is the likelihood of a particular event? in DJMerc's case the house falls off the props again pick one A Almost certain – is expected to occur B Likely – will probably occur C Moderate – might occur at some time D Unlikely – Could occur at some time E Rare – May occur only in exceptional circumstances
You combine your two answers as a letter/number combination like C2. These combinations are then assigned a descriptor that describes the level of risk, as follows:C1, D1, D2, E1, E2 — Low riskB1, C2, D3, E3 — Moderate riskA1, A2, B2, B3, C3, D4, E4, E5 — High riskA3, A4, A5, B4, B5, C4, C5, D5 — Extreme risk
My assessment of DJMerc's situation is that if the props fail while he or someone else is underneath the consequences would be rated as (3) Moderate (he is unlikely to escape uninjured) and the building will suffer significant damage. Even if there is no one underneath the building will still suffer significant damage.the likelihood of it happening is probably (C) moderate (e.g. the props get knocked out by a machine or a person missing their footing, heavy rain softens the dirt, a wind storm loads the side of the building, snow load on the roof, etc) so we're looking at a C3 or High Risk situation.
Don't know about you, there are choices available here a high risk situation should not be accepted as OK
For anyone who doesn't understand what the controversy is about, a more standard method for supporting the structure would be via cribbing. See attached picture below. The purpose of cribbing is to provide temporary support for the structure by 1) spreading the load over a larger area (footprint) than is provided by a single vertical member, and 2) provide significant lateral support.
For you "nay-sayers", look at the bright side. If the worst were to happen we would have a great candidate for a Darwin Award!!
Re someone's question above about what type of engineer is this that is involved, here is a little experience I had. Was working on a building site with a PE. We were checking the fall of a drain tile with a 4' level. From the conversation, it was obvious that this Certified, Professional Engineer did not know how to read a level! I didn't say anything, but just demonstrated that if you lift the right end of the level, and the bubble becomes aligned in the vile, then that means the right side is lower than the left.
So, you might think, well, there are good and bad PEs. Maybe, but becoming a Certified Professional Engineer is a big deal. Nothing like that little 5 hr builders test I took. More like passing the Bar exam, or becoming a CPA. The thing is that this PE's experience was in assessment and replacement of concrete in power plants. Not residential construction. The PE was on site as a favor to the property owner. So, there are different kinds of PEs, but they are all still Professional Engineers, who, at least in my state, can put their stamp on anything.Matt
On the subject of the weight of a house -
We hired a house mover a few years ago whose hydraulic house lifting device had a scales built into each lifting pad (he told me he hires out to weight small ships in a local port with it, but that's just a sidenote).
The house he moved for us was 26x34, wood framed with two layers of comp roofing, 2 layers of wooden shingles, the top one very wet. The roof didn't leak, so the interior was dry. All the interior walls and ceilings were sheathed with 1x6 shiplap, so it wouldn't be as heavy as drywall, but I was still surprised whe he told me what that house weighed - it was either 28 ton, or 28,000 lbs, I can't remember which for sure, just the number.
I'll try to attach a couple photos. The second shows how a house mover cribbed under our place. I would consider this minimum as far as temporay supports - and screw jacks are not only much safer than bottle jacks, they rent real cheap, at least around here, less than $10/day/20 ton jack.
I did an estimate on the weight of my place, two story stucco, 3124 sq ft, old lath and plaster walls. It came to about 175 tons.
-- J.S.
And Dirishinme.
Exactly !!
The wing should have been measured for length. A mark made at halfway, and another at 1/4 from the outside edge. Dig the dirt out from under, all the way through, and between those marks. Leave the foundation intact. On the outside wall, especialy.
Add cribbing, and a couple of large beams. Getting one as close to the outside edge of the wing as possible.
Now, cut two holes through the foundation. At 1/3 marks. Along the outside wall. Crawl into the space under the wing end, and place another large beam, front to back, right along that outside wall. Place cribbing outside the wall, adjacent to the two holes you cut through the foundation. Run two beams through those holes. Set them on top of the piles of cribbing outside, and those inside, so they are supporting the beam you put under the edge of the outside wall.
Now dig out the dirt, underneath, up to the rest of the house, starting from the cribbing that you put under. Leave a couple feet along the foundation walls on the sides. Leave what is left of those foundation walls intact. When you have cleaned right up to the inner wall, put some cribbing up there, with a beam running front to back, as well. This will keep the whole thing from sagging before you are finished.
Now you can finish digging out the rest of the dirt. Including what remains of the foundations. Put in new foundation walls, remove the cribbing, and pour a new floor.
I'm with DanT. I think that it is an absolute miracle that this has not already come down and killed someone.
Live, Love, Forgive and Forget
quittintime
Nice, really Nice !!!! hey Merc see how it's done? You can cantilever those beams and cribbing out so that one can get the concrete foottings and walls done. Got any pic's of that for Merc?
Edited 12/17/2003 12:15:08 PM ET by nelson
I'm not a carpenter like many of these guys. I always thought carpenters went a little over board on bracing, nailing and the like. But man, that is one sparce set of legs for your house. If you get away with it make sure to get to church and put a few bucks in the till and thanks yous out there for someone saving your life. DanT
If there is people living in that struture at night?, Children?, Your putting their lives at risk too!! It only takes a little earth movement, earthquake, wind, anything to shift the ground and your braces. It's not only you working under there, but the guys your wroking with and the people living in the struture. maybe the people next door? And you are showing all to see the wrong way of doing it! Maybe some kid is going to see this and say, "I know how to do it because I seen how djmerc does it"and do it the way he see's it from you on this page? People can get killed because of you. And all you want to do is BRAG!!!!
Shame, Shame on you! Let's see the right way of doing things on here!
Fine Homebuilding should not allow this!!!!
Edited 12/17/2003 3:01:31 AM ET by nelson
Edited 12/17/2003 3:44:49 AM ET by nelson
Edited 12/17/2003 3:45:16 AM ET by nelson
Other people have said that the way this building is being jacked up looks dangerous. I know (from my own stupidity) that using the bottle jacks under a long 2x4 is wrong.
I was working under my house about 5 years ago trying to jack up some places where the floor had sagged several inches. I was using the exact setup shown in this picture with a 12 ton jack on a 6x6 with 2 2x4's spiked together sittting on top of the jack under a beam. I was happily jacking away and seeing some progress when the 2x4's kicked out to the side. There was enough force that the bottle jack flew thru the air and knocked a chunk out of the brick column I was working beside. I was extremely lucky because the jack and 2x4 missed me and the beam I was kjacking just fell an inch or so back onto the brick column.
I had seen house movers and how proper cribbing is done but thought I knew better and that my way would be good enough .........
I know that what I see here is dangerous!
Hi Nelson I agree with you 100 per/cent this job is so wrong and I dont want anyone to think I would ever do anything so lame as this type of work.im afraid you think this is my job, No not in a millon years , not even when I was in my teen years and washing dishes at the local holiday inn . Its good to see someone agrees with me on how bad this job looks.theres a picture a few more posts later and that is more along the lines i was talking earler. woof /Dogboy
Edited 12/27/2003 8:16:38 AM ET by dogboy
why are you writing to me about this ? this is not my job . your the second person to do this . I did not do this job and do not do crappy and unsafe work like this the person you should be writing to is D L Merc, not me, dogboy ! I was one of the first to write about this job and if you would go back and see you would know that I was not exactly nice to D L Merc .
I take it you don't lke being associated with that train wreck either...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Last sighting of djmerc, Dec 17th. What do you think?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hiding or worst.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Hopefully, just embarrassed, not wanting to admit to the fines smacked on him when the local code official drove by. It would be nice to know that he is not under a collapsed mess....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
It would... But he did get hammered...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I'm hoping the whole thing is a photoshop gag, like the steep driveway. And he's safe and sound, laughing his a** off....
-- J.S.
That'd be good.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I'm with John on this one. I didn't want to get suckered in. Gives me the creeps if it is real cuz I do this alot and know how easy this one could come down.
KK
Hey all, I saw a post in a thread , I thought it was this one, that had a link to a site that had screwjacks that had a socket to accept a 6x or a 4x post..I thought I had bookmarked it, but no dice..any help. Being as we cant search for anything reliably, I am counting on biological memory functions. Thanx if ya know who/where it was..Duane
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=37946.5
Prospero search worked fine for me.
Thanx..all I ever get is copperwater pipes discussion..no matter what I search for..?
<Thanx..all I ever get is copperwater pipes discussion..no matter what I search for..?>
Sphere- Did you say something similar to this in another post somewhere? I took it as a humorous tongue in cheek comment until I saw where you first started posting here last month.
The search function will always be set at that 'copper pipe discussion' until you click on whatever chosen post you choose from the list the search brings up in the lower left column on your monitor screen.
No, I did not say that before. But now I see what yer sayin..gonna try again with another search test. Thanx. Been around here (lurkin as guest/and member) since sometime in the beginning...then no computer for awhile, then too busy..etc. When I finally got new confuser(s) and some time and some reason to post..I had no clue what my pass word or screen name was! So, basically I"Mmmm BBaacck!..good to be here again.
sphere.. we use big house moving screw jacks.. have to leapfrog them though.. since we only have 5 of them... mebbe it was something like this ?
the screw collar inserts into a 2x6 box nailed up round-robin.. we can make the bos as long as we want... we've actually used them up to 18' ( heavy ! )
and we can splice short boxes together with plywood side-scabs..
we leave these in place.. but anytime we use hydraulic bottle jacks we always crib and beam
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/27/2003 9:27:02 PM ET by Mike Smith
here's another job with the same screws..
a pic. of the screw out of it's box.... and one with two jacks and a prop.. picking the house so we can set a beam behind themMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike, those look ham dandy to have. Not the same as those other ones tho' yours look like more threads. I dont have to go real high (luckily) just found more termite chewem ups in the NEWER part of the house..Sill without termite shield or sill seal, EATEN..single band ..eaten..I hope the joistends and subfloor is ok.
Normally I would use a pair of bottle jacks and get it up then support with a temp header held up with a pair of 2x6 "A" s. But this is a great excuse to buy the screws..the log part of the house will be ongoing long enough to warrent the $.
Thanx again. Duane
sphere... where would you buy them. ?. i'd certainly like to know...
i inherited mine from a house mover 30 years ago..he probably bought 'em when they were building and moving pyramids..
if you find someplace to buy them let us all in on itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
http://www.ellisok.com/products.htm
These are pretty cool..
I'm no pro in this regard, but something about those pictures offends my commonsense- as it does many of the people who've already posted.
It would appear that your joists are not extending from the part of the house still resting on its foundation walls into the part that is being supported by your temporary rigging. Your assumption that the portion you've dug out is "cantilevered" off the existing house is therefore incorrect. The only racking resistance being offered by your house is by the two walls extending from the existing foundation. The front wall has a door in it. That door opening has a lintel (header) at its top, but NOT at its bottom- should the foundation give way, the house will "fold" at that door-the stiffness in that wall is designed to resist loads from the roof and spread them to a sound foundation, NOT to support the house in the case that it loses its foundation!
The portion of the house that's got no foundation under it therefore has precious little stiffness to act as a cantilever. I'd therefore be worried about the slenderness of the posts supporting your temporary steel beams (i.e. the ones which run under the joists, providing the structure the stiffness it lacks).
I'm also worried about how those posts are founded. The "recent, really bright" picture seems to show water in the hole, though it could be a trick of the light. Are the posts founded on something which goes any distance below grade, or are they just sitting on a piece of concrete which sits on the "undisturbed soil" at the bottom of your excavation? Compare the area of foundation upon which that part of your house used to sit, to the area it's sitting on now. Is the current foundation even 1/10 the area of the old one?
A good, safe structure, temporary or not, needs bracing to keep posts in the vertical. Losing one of those posts could lead to a rapid collapse. You ask "what force could pop out one of the posts"? Lots of suggestions have been made- and if you're relying on the weight of the house to hold the post in place rather than doing some top/bottom attachment and some X bracing between them, all it would take is the least tremor of the earth, or some water-induced settlement of the soil underneath one or more of the posts...
You're going to be under there for an extended period installing the ICFs. I'd recommend that you brace these posts thoroughly at the very least, install some more posts to increase the redundancy, and better still, you install some proper cribbing under there to spread the load further.
If you don't choose to listen to the (well-founded) concern being expressed on the site by the pros here, I guess that's your choice- provided the local municipality doesn't shut you down. If you manage to get out of this project with your hide, that's great. There have been plenty of examples of poor practices which have succeeded due to sheer luck. That doesn't mean that you should design anything, temporary or not, which will hurt people if it fails AND which is dependent on luck to survive against forseeable risks.
a few posts earlier somwone said slimming factor ?
this reminds me of the first house jacking job I was on, I was not part of that crew but a sub doing other work and watching
they lifted a house using nothing but bottle jacks on beams and rim joists. two guys were in charge of crawling under the house with bottle jacks and lifting center beams. all went very slowly
the house , a two story , would shake when a truck went by on the road
I asked the foreman about the ouse falling. He said
thats why we send litte skinny guys down there. if the house begins to fall they need to quickly get laying between two joists and hope for the best
that reminds me of the above mentiioned sliming factor
as for those under the house posted, I wish them the best and hope they can move fast.
Does anyone remember a forum post with such an overwhelming number of posters agreeing?...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
No, and I disagree with you that there could be such a thing. It's those Liberals / Conservatives again, isn't it? I downloaded something about agreeing on a forum, but then I discovered it was against the constitution. So I screwed my laptop to the trusses with piffinscrews.........
Did you at least space them with the black diamonds?...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Were they home made trusses?
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Musta been home made, more piffin screws, on the black diamond cubit spacing.
It's been 11 days since his last post.
I hope everything is alright....
anybody in his neck of the woods??
I went back to take another look at this job and the way your bracing it up, now im not sure but it seems to me this discusion site (breaktime) is to get info so we can make informed disisions. and I think you have gotten some good and sound advise. now if you wernt trying to get help or advise then maybe this was a mistake. If you were just tryiny to get a compliment , well you did do a lot of work and maybe thats all you wanted , but when people are only trying to help when they see somthing that alarms them ,well were only trying to help you so you or somone close to you doesnt get hurt. Ive found kids trapesing arround my jobsites just being nosey maybe you have it all blocked off from onlookers . but listen to some of the other guys here that sound like they know what there doing. its better that ego's get hurt than people. try to use the advise not reject it by thinking we dont have any balls ,just because you think were worryworts. This is a good place to get help and support. woof dogboy
I have to agree with your wacky comment; the wacky part is the lack of suitable cribbing to support it. Digging it out is straightforward.
Good luck; post more pics as you go.
Hey - I think DJMerc got the message. Yea, I drove it home too. He's posted several times here and he seems like a good guy. I think he is here to learn and we don't need to drive him off.
I think he lives in my neck of the woods, and I'd go check on him if I know where, exactly.
Seen him over to Knots and he does have much to offer...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Question for a creative mind: I've been meaning to ask some excavation friends for ideas, but haven't had a chance.
I have a building I need to dig the basement (quarter basement, about 1000 sfJ) out 1-2 feet deeper. The access is an external staircase parallel to the building with a 2nd story deck overhead (apartment building). I've thought about hand moving the dirt into the stairwell and lifting it out with an extended arm off a backhoe, but I'm afraid of undermining the clay at the bottom of the stairwell which will be under concrete at the end of the project. Everything is dirt floor currently.
Any ideas other than lots of emanual labor w/5 gallon buckets? It's about three triaxles of dirt to pull out. Jacking the building up is NOT an option.
tia,
remodeler
Follow this thread, and Do not ask this guy..
A belt convayor .
DJ Merc on deck!
Don't worry about running me off (and I'm certainly not "hiding" or "embarrased" or whatever else has been intimated). You guys gotta come up with a better whoppin' than that to get rid of me....
Sorry to disappoint, but the whole project is not a photoshop trick. The house is still standing. In fact it hasn't moved even a tiny bit. I inserted a third piece of steel that replaced an existing drop girder and we are starting to dig footings.
I do appreciate all the non-emotional commentary from everybody. I've read them all, but have been very busy with the project and some holiday travel to respond until now.
The picture that was posted by DIRISHINME was a great example of how to crib up a house. However....I don't think it applies to my project. I certainly could have gone that way, but it's overkill. 75% of my house is still sitting on a four sided foundation and I have created a big cantilever with the remaining 25% of the house. Could the house move laterally? Sure, but under what load? A 20mph wind...40mph wind...80mph wind...? Maybe if the backhoe hit it? Keep in mind that I have a subfloor, walls, and roof decking that all create a diagram back into the undisturbed part of the house. Nails, wood, screws, glue, they all add up to a lot intrinsic rigidity resisting movement.
I should also address my engineer. He is not an not-applicable engineer. He's an architect and PE. He is not a "friend.". He's a paid professional that deals with building construction as a fulltime profession. He did the detail drawings and engineering specifications for my ICF foundation and structural concrete front and back porch. I've seen some of his work around here, most notably a large concrete deck that had a hot tub cantilevered out over large dropoff on the hill behind the house. I'll try to get a picture sometime and post it. It had $6k in rebar in it! Yow.
Again, thanks for all the comments and I hope everybody is having a good holiday season.
The next picture I post will be either 1) the house fallen into the hole or 2) the day we pour the ICF foundation.
MERC.
I'll give you some non-emotional comment, if that's what you're after. But you won't like it.
1. You don't know what you're doing. This is so obvious as to require no further comment.
2. Your 'engineer' is out of his tree or doesn't really exist. Nobody could get through even a $39.95 correspondance-school engineering course and not know that set up is a disaster waiting to happen.
3. Nobody here is trying to run you off; they're just trying to save your silly a$$ from getting killed. Read my lips: K-I-L-L-E-D. This is not a joke, Mister.
4. Your set up is so dangerous that I don't even think it's safe to try to get under there to put the cribbing in now. Your only safe way to save that house is to drag or push I-beams under it and then lift them in place with backhoes and crib outside the building perimeter. You have literally dug yourself into a very tight spot....
Hire some professionals--real ones--to get that house on cribbing before it's too late. Either that or toss a match into it and walk away. You blew it. Time to admit it and get out.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I'd be willing to listen to anybody that supported their case with actual numbers. Make some assumptions, do some calculations and tell me exactly what would be required to bring this house down. Don't just tell me that it is "obvious" that I don't know what I'm doing.
MERC.
thanks for the joke
this is almost as funny as the driveway pictures earlier in the month
Next week we ae putting a foundation under a house. Its all jacked up now and blocked CORRECTLY. However, the crew has not been to the job site yet, I am printing the picture and puting it on the board in the morning before they head out just to see the reaction
from what ive seen you wouldnt catch me dead under that, well maybe
....................I would be dead under that
so what is the outcome of this? i started reading and opening jpegs and reading somemore and my word someone is not so tethered to sunrises and sunsets and must be ready to shed their mortal coil because that cluster f%ck is perfect if you wish to die sooner than later.
i am too impatient to read all the posts- somebody give me the cliff notes...
hubcap
Hey Hubcap,
Some DIY selfer adding a basement under his house. Looks like a widowmaker. Got a few 4x4's underneath house, swears up and down this setup is the cat's meow, doesn't need to worry about house crashing down because houses are built of wood, nails, and screws, so they must be incredibly strong, YADA YADA YADA.
People who move houses for a living, engineers, foundation experts, etc. post warnings to this guy asking to please bring in an expert to eyeball the job so no one gets killed. DIYselfer say's "NAH, EVERYTHING IS FINE."
We've got side bets going on when this Cluster F@ck is going to come crashing down, doing a wicked witch of the west routine on this fella and his whole family.
Some people just must be too proud, ignorant, and stupid to live. What a waste. This must be how the human gene pool gets thinned out.
Cork in Chicago
> doing a wicked witch of the west routine ....
The house falls on the witch of the East. The witch of the West gets melted by a bucket of water. And the whole story is actually about monetary policy and the free silver movement. ;-)
-- J.S.
Hey JOHN SPRUNG,
You got me there. I thought about that on the commute up to the North Shore of Chicago this morning on the way to do interior finish and trim job. But for the life of me couldn't remember if it was east or north witch that got squashed by the house.
Anyway the moral of the story on this thread is someone could get squashed by this house if something goes wrong. Hope this guy comes out alright.
Cork in Chicago
All that would be needed to bring that house down is one good whack with a loaded wheelbarrow against one of those 2x4 posts of yours, or a gentle nudge with a backhoe bucket. Or you undermining one of them by digging a little too close after a rain. Or maybe just the rain. Or maybe just a good healthy f@rt after a plate of pork and beans.
Look, Mr. Self-made Expert: Even houses sitting on properly constructed cribs occasionally fall down and get wrecked by weather or accidents. If you knew anything about what you are doing, you'd at least know that.
So if they can fall when the job is done right, but something goes wrong....
I don't understand why you bothered to post here in the first place if you won't listen to anybody except yourself.
You wanna die? That's your business. I've said my bit. I have jacked and moved enough houses to know you're in over your head. Too bad you can't listen to experience (mine and everybody else's) and accept that.
Have a nice life. What's left of it....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Just me Dogboy again Ive been gone for awhile went to new jerseythen tore everything out of family room (computer) to lay down new carpeting and got flu before everything went back well im all better and hooked up and im back and like i said way6 back in the beguiningi dont want to hurt anyones feeling I know how som of us get so fu-kin sensitive but you've been getting it up the old wazoo and you dont seem to mind Personally i would have rather taken some good advise, but go ahead bend over, and keep on reading im sure mine wont be the last one WOW 84 post / you win !!!!!
Dogboy
Edited 1/5/2004 10:38:19 PM ET by dogboy
Merc, you ask for some assumptions and calculations.
This is a quote from The Timber Frame House by Tedd Benson (Taunton 1988) p 25. "I carefully calculated each timber size and demonstrated that ... the posts to support the beams could be quite slender... one day the elderly lady across the street backed her car into the structure [and started] quite a nice domino effect ... the slender posts broke like matchsticks" The message is that a slender timber post can be plenty strong enough for the vertical load, but as soon as it gets a little off vertical, then it will break.
As far as I can tell from your photos the side of your house is supported on a number of steel beams which in turn are supported by slender vertical struts at their outboard ends. Now I'm prepared to accept that the section of house we are concerned with is torsionally stiff because of the way it is constructed and attached to the rest of the house. I'll also accept that the math shows that the slender timber struts are strong enough in compression to carry the applied vertical loads. However, on what's been presented to date I'm not prepared to accept that the struts and their footings are stiff enough or anchored well enough (top and bottom) to resist horizontal forces, or are strong enough longitudionally if they get knocked out of plumb.
What would happen if an empty or loaded wheel barrow were to bump one of the struts? how quickly will the dirt turn to mud if it rains heavily? when you pour the footings and/or floor can you garantee that the concrete truck and/or pump can not get near the supports (is there a physical barrier)? how much force is required to knock one of the posts out of plumb? there are some other questions but these will do for now.
Ask your engineer friend these questions. Get him to also explain "slenderness ratio" to you and demonstrate that your posts are not too slender. I and others will be very interested in his responses.
Ian
What horrifies me is that there is no diagonal bracing on the "posts" holding up the addition. Cribbing would be one heck of a lot sturdier than a toothpick anyway. I see that picture, and I think of the local teenagers. I think of the things I did as a teenager, and I'm wondering when and how many kids are going to die under that thing. Of course, maybe there's no way anyone will ever be on site, and the elves will come and do the ICF.
MERC
it's been 17 days, a lot of us are hoping you're not squashed under the house.
as to calculations and assumptions, you haven't responded to my previous post but here are some numbers:
you appear to be using 4 x 2 props, that are about 5 ft long, that are a jam fit between the steel beams and the ground. This implies a slenderness ratio of about 200. The maximum acceptable value for a timber post is about 50
The critical load points are where the strut supports the beam and where it rests on the ground. The latter should be a rigid connection into the ground — you appear not to have provided same. I can't tell what you have done where the beam rests on the strut.
I don't have sufficient data to do a more detailed assessment, but in brief, even the maths suggest that your structure is supported in a very unstable way. This implies that only a little nudge is required to topple it.
Ian
Sometimes a highly engineered structure, like a modern stadium, defies physics, but there is some high-end engineering involved. High strength steel tube shapes are used in modern roller coaster design because it adds the "that thing is barely supported" anxiety. And then there is this situation, where the most detailed computer analysis will tell you what old common sense sees, someone in over their head. I am almost as concerned if nothing happens because it will give this alleged "engineer" confidence that his scheme worked, just because the fatal flaw did not occur this time....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
>> ... only a little nudge is required to topple it.
I probably shouldn't stick my nose in this, but ... :)
The way I read his description, a little nudge would not topple it because 2/3 of the house is still attached to the foundation and the overhanging part is still knit together with the rest of the house by sheathing, flooring, etc. If you pulled out all the props at the same time, the worst that would happen is that the now unsupported part would sag. It would take a nudge from an earthquake or a D9 Cat to displace the 2/3 of the house that's still on the foundation before you'd see any spectacular failure.
Have another look, Uncle Dunc. The unsupported portion has virtually nothing which will work as a cantilever off the existing, supported house. The joists run the wrong way, and the door has openings in it which are NOT stiff to moments acting in that direction- they're designed to distribute roof load down to the foundation, NOT to compensate for a missing foundation! So what's acting as a cantilever? Some interior partition walls hung with drywall? Flooring, with an active cross-section of only maybe 3/4" in the direction that matters? Sorry- there's no "lever" to act as a cantilever in the structure I see in those pictures!
Murphy says that this guy's going to get away with it- then we'll have TWO people running around thinking that you can do stuff like this and get away with it- the HO and his "engineer". Murphy's holding out for a bigger failure that'll kill somebody else.
The guy's got no visible connection between his skinny little posts and their foundations, and no visible connection between the posts and the beams they're supporting, and no cross-bracing- it's a disaster waiting to happen- and no professional engineer I know would let something like that go without comment. I suspect that if you knocked out even one of those posts, you'd have a cascade failure and another candidate for the Darwin Awards.
As far as the other poster who said that "modern engineering defies physics", we agree that it may appear so- but it's actually quite the opposite. The only functional definition of an engineer that works for me is that an engineer can do for a dollar what any damned fool can do for ten. Anybody with some commonsense and some construction experience can over-steel or over-support a structure- but it takes an engineer and all his physics to design a safe and elegant structure using the minimum amount of materials. Real engineers don't play fast and loose with people's safety, even for temporary structures. And real engineers may over-steel their designs a bit regardless what their physics tells them is minimally necessary, because they know that steel's cheap compared to human lives- and nobody can predict ALL the loading cases that a structure might see sometime in the future.
I've got an idea here.
I'll pay him $100 if he takes a dozer, chains all those posts to it, and pulls them out, and the addition stays up. We'll need to have it filmed and posted here for proof. Maybe if enough of us chip in, it'll be worth his while.
Ill add ten to that
Add $20 fom me.
Mike
One by one, the penguins steal my sanity.
Edited 1/14/2004 6:33:29 PM ET by Mike Gabriel
real engineers may over-steel their designs a bit regardless what their physics tells them is minimally necessary, because they know that steel's cheap compared to human lives
too true ... and usually the only RESPONSIBLE decision
what really wories me about these two is that someone else will see their work and think it is an acceptable way to go
Edit: checked when he last visited, as at Jan 14 he or someone using his login was still around.
Edited 1/15/2004 3:46:35 AM ET by ian
You're right. I did go take another look at the pictures, and I had misremembered or misunderstood what I saw the first time.
After all this work and worry,superb engineering and design it still seems to me, from looking at the pictures of his house, that he is going to have a dark, damp, below ground space, which should have been left as was.
Access to the space will have to be a stairway down which will take up a lot of space both upstairs and down. It looks to me like he is going to get very little quality space for all his efforts.
btw. He could have used those steel jack posts that HD and others sell. These are great for doing what he is doing with 2X4s. They are cheap,can be returned, if two short, and are much safer than leaving the place supported on bottle jacks.
Edited 1/15/2004 7:39:33 AM ET by ARROWSHOOTER
DJ Merc,
if you're out there, please let us know. We are getting a little worried about you.
Haven't heard from you in over two weeks. Are you still alive?
C'mon guys . . . one of you has to be able to find a graphic from "The Wizard of Oz" of the wicked witches feet sticking out from under the house ! !
Greg
DJ Merc still on deck.
Project is rolling along as planned, though some (wife) would say behind schedule. However, with a project like this a schedule is just a dream.
Since my last post we have accomplished a lot.
Final two pieces of steel set in place. One of them was a flush header, replacing a drop girder under the house and it was a w12x50, 24' long. We set it with the Bobcat using the pallet forks (it was about the limit of what the bobcat could do). The other one was set yesterday by the boom truck (out of the four pieces of steel it was the only one that wasn't under the house).
Footings formed, inspected, poured.
Polysteel wall stacked (by the engineer and 3 guys), rebar set, inspected, poured this last Monday (three days ago). Temporary supports (8 4x6 posts, 2 each at four critical support points) are still in place. Engineer advises me to leave them 7 days at which time the wall will have reached 70% of design strength. 21 days to nearly full strength.
Interior footings formed, inspected, poured (I had the concrete guy color and stamp one of my footings as a sample...that's an expensive footing!).
Today my Paneldeck forms will be delivered and we will start setting up for the structural concrete deck pours (two of them totalling about 450 sq ft).
The project has generated a lot of interest among architects, engineers, and tradesmen. I have had probably 20 or so of them visit the jobsite and they have all complimented me and Bobby (the main sub - bobcat driver, polysteel guy) on how well such a complicated project is coming along, particularly given that I'm just a DIY guy.
I've attached a picture of the house at it stands this morning.
Thanks for being concerned and checking in with me. I will try to be more regular with responding. I will post a picture of the structural concrete decks.
Take Care
MERC
dj....heh, heh, heh, heh....dodged that bullet, dintcha
tole ya so....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
well congrats, looks good NOW. I still would have been happier with a safer job site
hopefully injuries were limited to bandaids
keep it posted with pictures in sequence, especailly the final picture
Actually the most substantial injury was when I fell off the ladder trying to unfreeze a pipe one cold morning. It was one of those 2' ladders with steps up one side. I got up the top, turned around and came down the wrong side. First major point of contact was my back on an exposed concrete footing. Hmmmm....you can guess who got the short end of that one. I just placed an order for a new 2' ladder with steps on both sides because I've done that act way to many times.
MERC
good to know it didn't drop on you
DJ- we're glad you lived through it. The ICF foundation looks great- going to be doing one of those myself one of these days, if things go right. Fortunately, all I've got to do is underpin a 38' long wall adjoining the addition- no steel and stilts for me!
well you did it and even with all of us ( the worst that can happen kind of guys) I am glad for you, it does look great , and to be honest I am glad i cant say i told you so. glad its going so good , I guess you told us.........
Dogboy walking with tail between legs
P.S. I still am in agreement with everyone out there , it didnt look safe and i hope no one out there thinks that this is the right way to do a job like this. its great nothing came down . I know ive learned a lot from every one out there . and to D.J. it still looks good and all that stuff .
Edited 1/17/2004 5:03:16 AM ET by dogboy
Dogboy, take your tail out from between your legs.
DJ, You did it. You not only survived, you've done a good job of it.
But that doesn't change the fact that what you did was worse than idiotic, it was insane. It's almost worse that you did succeed, because now some other DIY people here might try it as well, and someone is going to end up dead. Period.
I don't care how many "engineers" you claim say so, what I can see in those pics is NOT safe. I hope that if anyone with very little common sense, and even less experience, is reading this thread... and is considering doing a crawlspace digout job themselves... Well, I hope that they give enough weight to all the arguments you have been given for just why this is unsafe. And that they do not try it themselves.
Yaaarg !¡!¡! Hold still... While I smite thee !
quittintime
DJ- ya- what Luka said, and then some! We're glad you're safe, but don't conclude that we approve of the methods taken to get the job done.
As I said in previous messages, lots of dumb-@ss stunts get pulled off daily, but that doesn't mean you should design or work on a basis that relies on luck to keep people safe. Murphy might decide that YOU'RE the one he's going to make an example of... That goes double in the U.S., where the lawyers chase the ambulance and are waiting to sue your broken corpse for damages...
Luka said it best, but I'll say it short: What you just did shows where the expression 'DUMB luck' comes from.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
What bothers me most about this thread is the guy just isn't getting the message. It's like talking to an obnoxiously smart-a$$ 14-year-old. He just keeps grinning and laughing at us, no matter how much the evidence shows he oughta have been nailed into a barrel for his own good ages ago. I'm not sure we're doing anybody any good by playing his little game.Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Everybody is getting their noses rubbed in something....
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
By dose is so stubbed ub betause o dis cold dat I cuddn beel id if tomebody wubbed it wid a 3" beld-sander....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
AXE-
How ya been? I got to thinking about this old thread and thought maybe you still might be hooked up to email notification of a Taunton post to you.
Was wondering how that project finally turned out?
Cheers
-Thoreau's Walden
did you send him an email or just counting on post notification? suggest you specifically send him an email.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
nah, if that doesn't work and he's not here under a new name post Prospero redo rewho then I wouldn't bother him with a contact.
be rest in peace snorK*I built the chimney after my hoeing in the fall, before a fire became necessary for warmth, doing my cooking in the meanwhile out of doors on the ground, early in the morning: which mode I still think is in some respects more convenient and agreeable than the usual one. -Thoreau's Walden
View Image
Poor AXE.....
Now that's funny right there!
Congratulations! GG receives the much covetedMrT/brownbagg Oneliner Award.
Saaalute!View Image View ImageI built the chimney after my hoeing in the fall, before a fire became necessary for warmth, doing my cooking in the meanwhile out of doors on the ground, early in the morning: which mode I still think is in some respects more convenient and agreeable than the usual one. -Thoreau's Walden
thank yew, thank yew ver' much.
; > )
Greg