In a discussion I was having elsewhere on the net where I was talking about producing an estimate and then producing a schedule ( I was arguing that they are two different things that while related need to be considered differently) when I wrote out my example of what my estimate was I wrote some thing that got me thinking about crew size and productivity again
| When I open up my estimating application or crack open a copy of R.S. Means’ Repair and Remodeling Cost Data I might see a line item that looks like this:
Lets say I have a job to install twenty of just the door they are describing there. I’m going to use that .800 Labor Hours figure times the number of doors (20) to come up with a figure of 16 Labor Hours to install the twenty doors. While I think that generally speaking hanging doors is a solo carpenter job I can see there that R.S. Means has based there figures on a two person crew. I going to interpret that to mean that while they may see the task as primarily solo too they feel there are times when having and extra set of hands can sometimes help so the .800 Labor Hours per door figure is based on that. So I go with that and let that be my guide. That 16 Labor Hours to install the twenty doors I’m then going to multiply by my labor rate of $50 per hour to come up with a Price of $800 to install those doors. My Cost Estimate is done. |
The text I’ve highlighted in bold red goes to the thinking I have regarding productivity. When I first began to look at the topic of “How long does it (really) take to do something that’s been estimated to take 200 labor hours?” (A project management/scheduling question) I was trying then to look at it in almost a generic form without looking at the issues of crew size so that I could examine some very basic scheduling issues.
The truth of the matter (and there were plenty of people who brought it to my attention back then too) is that there are very very few tasks in general building and remodeling that productivity isn’t effected by crew size. I had mentioned to Mike Smith back then that I thought “that 4/5 (person) combination I think has some kind of “magic” significance.” for a company size.
While (I used to) hang doors all the time and I still recall my own personal solo record of 17 in an eight hour day back in ’96 (.470) I also recall that I almost killed myself doing it and it took me days to recover from it so while I might have been ultra productive that one day I sure the days that followed were below average performance. I also remember a solid core interior door on a job we had two years ago that took a carpenter a whole eight hour day too. It all averages out in the end I guess.
Regardless I mentioned above that while I personally see hanging doors as a solo carpenter activity (I could be wrong about that) I also really see it done most efficiently by a two man crew so that on those occasions where you need an extra hand you don’t lose you productivity because your struggling to physically.
Despite what Walt Stopplewerth and the HomeTech school of thinking people seem to be advocating regarding using a one man crew I’m not at all convinced it’s the most productive way to get things done.
From HomeTechs FAQ(http://www.hometechonline.com/rr/rrfac.htm)
What Crew Types Do You Use When Determining Labor Costs?
The simple answer is ‘all types of crews’. We do not believe that the price for a specific amount of production changes depending on the crew mix. Let me give you an example. One contractor uses an experienced lead carpenter to do framing by himself. Another uses an average carpenter with a helper. The first contractor pays the lead carpenter a total of $30 an hour and he finishes the job in 10 hours. His cost is $300. The second contractor pays his carpenter only $22.50 an hour and the helper $15 an hour and they finish the job in only 8 hours. His cost is also $300. Both companies used different crew mixes but the per unit or per job cost is the same.
We have found that with stable, profitable companies, crew mixes do not substantial change the unit costs. So if you are paying your employees what they are worth, 100 square feet of wall framing should cost you the same whether you use a one or two man crew.
From Lead Carpenter Concept Overview (http://www.hometechonline.com/lead/lead.htm)
Studies of remodeling have shown that the one-person crew is the most efficient: that first person is 80%-100% efficient, the second is 25% efficient, and the third is minus 5%.
While I never been a fan of the one man crew for safety reasons I’m looking to gather some thoughts on whether there is a big enough difference in productivity between a solo tradesperson and a two person crew that we need to really to go nuts paying attention to that when were producing a Price Estimate?
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“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” – Margaret Mead
Replies
i think it definately makes a difference but i can't say how it varies over the many different tasks and situations one would run into ovet the course of a job
While I never been a fan of the one man crew for safety reasons.........
Bet that climber who sawed his own arm off with a pocket knife a few weeks ago would agree with you there.
It's always good to have one guy to pick on, but I don't guess you're interested in that info either?
Joe H
Joe on what I think was the third house I ever worked on in my career all those years ago the electrician (owner of his company) was working in the attic of that house one Saturday and then slipped and stepped through the sheetrock of the ceiling and fell 20 something plus feet onto the concrete slab and broke his leg, and hip as was found unconscious the following Monday when everybody came back on to the job having almost bleed to death from internal bleeding. That happened apparently a few weeks before I ever got on the job but the story has kinda stuck in my mind all these years.
Personally I once turned around and walked right into a butt end of a few 2 x 12 sticking out of the back of pickup truck and broke my glasses and knocked myself unconscious. Luckily I was in a lumber yard when it happened and some of the yard help were volunteer EMTs (the firehouse was almost right across the street).
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Thanks skids. To answer my own question I DON'T think there is a big enough difference to spend a lot of time worrying over how it effects you estimate. I think that the variances for most tasks that are questionable as to being one or two person the numbers average out eventually and it's up to (an option so to speak) the PM, Super, Lead Carpenter to deploy people the way they want to eck out a few more dollars here and there if they so choose. It's not a big deal in my estimation but I wanted to see if there was any great disagreement with that view.
There are a lot of other areas where the estimator can gain a lot more accuracy a lot easier than sweating that in my estimation.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Jerrald,
All I can do is respond from the workers point of view since that is what I am. But I do study these business matters for what it's worth. I take pity on you for getting into a situation in which you have to make a firm guess or bet on what the labor time would be. You can estimate certain things like materials fairly exactly but labor is a wild variable. [Remember Murphy's Law!] Construction is not an assembly line factory.
Some jobs, like your door installation, are one man jobs although there may be certain points in which an extra hand maybe useful [such as lifting the door into place]. Sometimes the extra people just get in the way. Sometimes, like digging ditches by hand, you get a simple multiplier. For instance if one man can dig five feet an hour than two can dig 10' and so on. If you are in a hrry, then you increase your manpower. I once had a job of lacing a tennis court screen to a cyclone fence. I would poke the lace thru the grommet and then walk around to the other side, pull it thru and then poke it thru the next grommet. A lot of walking. But get two people - one on each side - and it goes lickity-split. The same goes for moving couches up and down staircases. Two makes it possible.
Perhaps your best balance would be to have two or three installers and one laborer in the general area to help where needed.
~Peter
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Peter - "I take pity on you for getting into a situation in which you have to make a firm guess or bet on what the labor time would be." I do it all the time. I think I've worked two T&M Cost Plus jobs in the last 13 years. One for a million something and the other for around $750. I much prefer the possible advantages of lump sum contracts to the limitations of the sure thing T&M Cost Plus gig. I know somewhere in the Pricing for ‘perceived value’ discussion that I started once upon a time I mentioned why I prefer lump sum work.
Estimating labor is not nearly as variable and "unestimatable" and as variable as you might think though and we actually specialize in doing some very exotic out of the ordinary work.
Peter I've also just started doing some consulting work this year regarding Lean Production, Drum-Buffer-Rope, Theory of Constraints, and Critical Chain and while "construction is not assembly line factory" work a factory today in many cases is not as much of an assembly line as we would all like to think but that's another discussion entirely. In fact the companies I was with these past two and a half weeks are more project oriented than assembly line oriented and the smaller one of the two was 100% project oriented.
I've probably done plenty of gigs like your lacing the tennis court screen over the years too and I (sometimes) know know enough to plan accordingly for them but every once in a while ya gotta do what ya gotta do though. I once rigged hoisted a a 11 riser curved stair into position all by myself knowing that my crew was stuck in traffic going no where on the Major Deegan by Yankee Stadium one day when I had a limited window of time in which I had to have the stair in.
I'm just asking around to get a general air of what building and remodeling contractors naturally think.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Remember the old farmer's saying about hiring summer help:
I'll hire one boy, because two boys makes only half a boy, and three makes none at all.
Not to say that's always true, but sometimes there's some truth in it.
Summer help, some are not!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
DCASSII I think that old adge is very very true about boys (and girls) but loses it realvance and accurracy as we begin to talk more and more about men and women.
I would probably never send two kids out together but then again that's sort of an oxymoron nowadays anyway. Just this Saturday morning I saw a new 19 year old "carpenter" that a friend's company had hired and made the jokes where did they find anyone under 40 who wanted to be a carpenter.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
off to the links.. i'll get back to youse about this later....Sun's out ... no rain !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Just wandered in here, and it got me thinking, watch out<G>. I mostly sub-contract trim and like the two man system. Means' solid core door hanging example is perfect. While I can hump a door up to a third floor, I don't want to. No way with a double door, one guy can't even manage a 6/0 6/8 frame with the doors out on a single floor, much less three.
Then, I imagine these doors need to be cased. One guy hangs, one guy cases. And there's multi-tasking going on, the guy casing is probably running base or casing windows, and helping hump doors, and all the while, keeping up with the door hanger's tools, nails, and shims...Personally, I think Means' average time is low, but, we don't just slap them in, either.
Then, there's scaffold/ladder work. One man up, one man down. Long measurements. Heavy panels. Big wall cabinets. Moving lumber...
Now, framing/siding is a different story. I like three men for that. One cutting, two banging.
And then, there's the money thing...I can't make enough just working by myself. Somebody needs to work out the details while others are working, unencumbered by anything other than just doing their best work.
Don't get me wrong, I admire the hell out of solo guys, I just don't see how they do it and stay happy. Plus, I really like company, and the radio just doesn't cut it<G> EliphIno!
Thanks for your comments BB. Something you said in there really got me thinking again too.
I have no complaints about the Means figure at all and no one will ever accuse us of just slapping them in I can assure you of that. I think a lot of the complaints I hear at times regarding those figures are related to contractors jumbling a lot of other stuff in to what they want for a door hanging estimate figure. In other words they think the Databook figures are low because when they compare them to their own experience that;'s how they read yet there own experience often never included or accounted for all the doors need to be hauled to the third floor from the barn out back up a hill covered in wet snow. That will tend to skew the contractors job costing figures so the Databook figures look unreasonably low. That may be an extreme but it does illustrate what I think happens a lot.
If you really want to see how irrationally silly and ridiculous some contractors can get about the data book figures you can go over to the JLC business forums where in a discussion some fellows were having there regarding Published Estimating Manual Rates one of the poster there said "for the paranoid conspiracy theorist, the true source of the numbers we use is the insurance industry, who want to keep their profits up at our expense, by keeping our estimates unrealistically low." I can only hope that fellow was saying that tongue in cheek to get a laugh but over there who knows just who is going to take that seriously and run with the idea. Geez.
In another discussion forum (not JLC) I had just recently said: "The book figures are benchmarks, not absolutes, but they are based on valid statistical samples that those publishers have researched. A contractor-estimator should use those data book labor figures to their own interpretation of their meaning. The units are standard as to "generally speaking" but individual as to interpretation."
Well anyway what you got me thinking about was that to get you own accurate figures to directly check against the data book figures you need to be look at hanging the door separately from trimming the door (" I imagine these doors need to be cased.") Trimming the door (and installing the lockset, and painting it etc.) are all separate tasks. Of all the contractors I know I am the only one with a time keeping system accurate enough to record that kind of specific information and even then it can only record it that specifically if I ask my people to execute the work and record it that way.
The problem is that's not the best way to do the work.
The "real" best way to do the work is not necessarily to to work according to batches (hang all the doors, then trim all the doors, etc) but to perform continuous flow or synchronous flow like you were describing. (But I wouldn't necessarily call it multi-tasking because that technically is a project management term that describes something else, without getting too technical there is a difference between synchronous flow and multi-tasking).
The problem with synchronous flow is it's harder (if not impossible) to breakout the tasks for measurement and comparison. A catch-22 huh?
Also I really do think your comment "Somebody needs to work out the details while others are working, unencumbered by anything other than just doing their best work" is very apropos too and goes exactly towards what I've been getting at and working towards about the possible optimum work cell size for building and remodeling work.
Thanks again, great comments BB.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Now I'm going to have change my name to Yossarian and pay help more when they find out they're really synchronous flowers ( dang, they don't smell that good).
EliphIno!
Edited 5/23/2003 8:30:00 PM ET by bucksnort billy
Nah, the Means is low, IMO
As the trim guy, I have to...
go through the house, check all the door Ro's for size and hand
go thru all the delivered doors and make sure they're not for some other house
make sure none are so damaged they might raise complaint
make any openings that aren't right right
check, and then cut/notch jambs to fit flooring or out of level conditions
depending on how well the the door was pre-hung, spring or re-mortise the hinges (I've had thousands of dollar problems with this)
hang the door so it hits all stops and doesn't open or close unless it's asked
case 2 sides of the door
lockout the door
sorry, 48 mins. doesn't cover that
and, I'm a mac buddy, but osx suxs. I had to throw that in;-)
EliphIno!
OSX suxs? Ya gotts be kiddin'? Man all that respect and admiration you earned and you throw it all away saying those two words? Now I think your a pud!
Seriously though getting back to the topic at hand a lot of those things you mentioned there are management tasks that should be figured separately or added to that baseline. To tell you the truth the baseline figure that I actually have and use in my own database system is .920 or 55 minutes so maybe that'll work better for you but like I said before I don't have any real problems with that Means figure.
There are some projects we do for some contractors where those things you mentioned are not even considered on our part. I have one contractor that actually distributes the doors to their actual locations so we don't even have to do that. It all depends. There are also clients and projects where I do have to assign someone to check every last little thing and before we even start we submit a memo regarding the problems we anticipate. What I do in a case like that is plan for (and estimate for) a lead to spend a day checking out site conditions equipment and materials either before the project starts or as the project is starting.
Still though I interpret and would figure that the RS Means figure is to hang just the pre hung door and it does not include:
case 2 sides of the door
lockout the door (installing the lockset)
Now about this "osx suxs" think what's that about? Installed OSX last September 15th and since then it run without even a hit of a problem except for one restart I had to initiate when my then early beta Safari browser got hung up on some java script on some site and the system wouldn't allow me to force quit. You plug OSX in and it works, ...and works, ............and works.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Ahhhh.arrrrrgh OSx. My dsl provider only supports OS 10.1, not Jaguar....plus I've got all this old stuff, in particular, Claris CAD. Just don't like the way OSx was forced on the faithful, matter of fact, kinda pisses me off....why can't we all play? On top of that, I just got a new iMac for the digital photo stufff....hmmmm EliphIno!
Wow Claris CAD that is old! So your saying Claris CAD wont operate under Classic within OSX? I actually have an application that I still use that is even older than that. I still use MacProjectPro since it's a real genuine Critical Path Method (CPM) planning and scheduling application and not just a souped up Gantt chart like MSProject and AEC FastTrack. It runs just fine under classic.
I think the OSX strategy having the old OS-9 operating within OSX as Classic for the most part was to include the those faithful to the old OS or applications that ran only on OS 9 most notably Quark which has a huge Mac user base and Quark only recently announced there OSX migration plans. I think Apple did a great job of not forcing it on us.
Out of all the software I had when I made the switch there was only one problem I had and that was with the driver to my Smart card reader (the film for my digital camera) that for who knows what reason I could never get to work under Classic. Everything else either worked or still works.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
No, I could probably run Claris CAD in windows<G>
IMO, and I'm a computer idiot, but have been through system 6.5 thru 9.2.2, Apple took something that was good and intuitive and changed it just to change. Not to necessarily make it better. And, they were going to only ship new machines with osx, but Quark users wouldn't bite.
Besides, my dsl provider doesn't support Jaguar, my Sony camera won't download unless I'm using iPhoto 2.0, which doesn't work in OS 9, so I'm doing the startup disk shuffle. Sorry for ranting, but it's kinda like the Breaktime switch to prospero, and I don't feel like I'm the one who's prospering... EliphIno!
BB I can't tell from reading your post whether you misunderstood what I was saying regarding running Claris CAD within the OSX Mac Classic environment (not Windows) or are just joking poking fun at Windows. You do know that OSX is really two operating systems don't you? OSX (either 10.1 or 10.2.x) and OS 9 which is referred to as Classic. If Claris CAD runs on OS9 you should be able to run it while running OSX although it will run using OS9. Same thing holds true for you internet connection too. You should still be able to use your ISPs OS9 configuration although you be surfing without the advantages of things like the OSX (10.2) browser Safari.
You really shouldn't need to switch back and forth start-up disks except in very rare cases,
Couldn't disagree with you more though when you say "Apple took something that was good and intuitive and changed it just to change. Not to necessarily make it better." OSX is soooooo much better than it predecessors. For one thing as I mentioned before it's thousands of times more stable than the old OS 9 and thousands of times more stable than Windows (thanks to it's Unix core). And the applications that the software producers have written for OSX are better too. The Microsoft Office for OSX is so much better than it's OS 9 version as are many other applications such as Vectorworks which you should check out if CAD is something you really need. There are numerous other reasons why I think OSX is the real best way to go but that would be a whole other discussion.
I also think the switch here to Prospero was an immense improvment over the slow old unreliable WebX systems too but that issue has been beaten to death around here and there is nothing said by either side that is ever going to change anybody else's mind.
Back to the issue of productivity now though when you said "I mostly sub-contract trim and like the two man system." were you saying that you're a GC and that you "mostly" sub-contract out your trim or were you saying you are a sub contractor who "mostly" does trim? I ask because I think I have noticed a subtle but distinct differences in the ways that GC's look at estimating trim and the ways that a Trim Sub-Contractor looks at trim and there are dramatic differences in the ways the two different types of contractors look at productivity.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
I was joking about Claris, I can/and do run it in classic. I'm still not (after 5 months) enthralled with OS X. It is cutesey though.
I'm not a GC, I sub-contract trim. A two man crew seems to work best for regular jobs. I'm thinking about that, and, I'm not sure what a regular job is. None of the one's I get are<G> Maybe 2-3000sq' residential jobs. Over that, for me, it's productive to have two carpenters work together and another (me) kinda like an icebreaker, preping stuff so they can roll right on thru.
Big houses, and commercial jobs, I use multiple crews of two, with still the one icebreaker.
I don't even see how solo guys can get measurements by themselves...
Check this out, though, I've got a painter helping me right now. Stuff get's primed, puttied and caulked before I turn around...could turn into an interesting arrangement. EliphIno!
That switching discs thing was about the dang internet provider. One would think BellSouth would have it together. So, all the iStuff has to go between discs...shutdown & startup...gotta get on Earthlink... EliphIno!
Okay I feel a lot better now I couldn't tell whether or not you were just joking around or what. It just I had a client I consulted with this past winter who didn't know that or at least was really confused about it. Ya never know. A few weeks ago I spent a bunch of time on the phone with the Palm support people trying to figure out why my Palm 505 wasn't charging only to find the power supply to the cradle wasn't plugged in. Doh! And I'm supposed to be one of those people who helps people figure out how to use their computers!
I have a small trim company too only I say Architectural Woodworking, Stairs, and Railings. 4 troops. All I do for that company anymore is estimating and scheduling so that's why I have this interest. Plus this summer, maybe this coming month, I plan to start another project management company to get myself back in to GC type work. With the new year I started doing IT, web, project management and production management consulting and since the project management consulting has taken off and I've been doing well with it I figured why not demonstrate it on our projects and get back into that again.
"Check this out, though, I've got a painter helping me right now. Stuff get's primed, puttied and caulked before I turn around...could turn into an interesting arrangement." Last year I had a carpenter/painter but she got married and moved to Argentina so I'm looking around thinking about finding her replacement.
"That switching discs thing was about the dang internet provider. One would think BellSouth would have it together." I guess I'm pretty spoiled intenet-wise in that I've got Optimum Online cable modem service which apparently is the top rated service in the country.
So what do you do your estimating in? Excel?
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Ecel? Yer one of those Noo Yourk comedians, right? LOL.
I'm so backwoods, the thought never occured to me, til now! Talk about Doh!
I guess I could get different installations for doors, base and shoe in there, but custom stuff is, well, custom...but, it could work as another check and balance. I'm a rotten businessman, just lucky that I overbid. Things here are really sucking right now, so, I might get plenty of time to work up some database stuff while I'm drawing unemployment<G> EliphIno!
Wow, actually I don't use excel for estimating anymore. Haven't in years. I was just asking because it just that that seems to be the default basic estimating application that so many contractors use. I actually wrote and created my own applications in FileMaker. I've got a scaled down version of my own system that I plan to release eventually as shareware for use by small specialty contractors, I'm working on a revised version of it as we speak. Wanna check it out and test it for me when I'm done with the revisions?
You can click to see a few screen shots of it here.
An Estimate Sheet 5 sec @56kbps
The Cost Book - Division Categories 3 sec @56kbps
The Cost Book - Sub-Division View 3 sec @56kbps
The Cost Book - Item Seletion View 3 sec @56kbps
Control Panel Preferences View 5 sec @56kbps
It's not in any of the views you see here but you can set the labor rates and the material costs so they are approiate to you own region or area. Where are you located that things suck right now. I am a New Yorker, ya got that right, we're in Westchester and will work there Fairfield County CT and Manhattan.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
I'd be very interested if i'm not working at Burger Kingâ„¢...one of the two in Chapel Hill, NC... EliphIno!
Okay then I'll have it sometime next week for you. I'll let you know via Prospero mail.
I had heard that NC was slow. Do you do any marketing or do you rely solely on word of mouth? Having never even been to North Carolina I have no idea what it's like (I don't I have at least, maybe when I was drunk in my college days I might have hitchhiked there for a concert). Is it development work (new construction) that drives things or remodeling?
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Hey Buck
I like your style, It scared me to think two people can move ot on some of the number of doors hung in 8 - 9 hours, Ill mention no names. I hang an average of 8 to ten doors in a day , not killing myself , but like you said , it includes humping them around, hanging them with shims and adequate nailing, adjusting framing, leveling all nearby doors together, adjusting stops, etc.
I was just happy to hear someone mention a realistic situation.
later
jason
And I forgot cutting door bottoms to clear carpet, and the one year punch...and don't you ever accuse me again of being realistic <G>
EliphIno!
Edited 5/24/2003 9:30:08 PM ET by bucksnort billy
ok mr realistic, don't forget the occasional call back for a warped door (especially pocket doors). see ya
Warping pocket doors? Now you're talking silly, dang, I've got two waiting for me. They're sitting on a curing garage slab. Think there'll be any problem<G> EliphIno!
Jason, interesting figure there, "I hang an average of 8 to ten doors in a day , not killing myself , but like you said , it includes humping them around, hanging them with shims and adequate nailing, adjusting framing, leveling all nearby doors together, adjusting stops, etc. " 8 to ten averages out to 9 or .888 labor hours per door. That's pretty close to that RS Means average figure (just 11% off) but still lower than the figure .920 figure we use. From your language it sounds like that what you are figureing that YOU can do and not what any crew you might have would average am I correct?
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
This situation shows the importance of how workers put together perform as a crew. Sometimes the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. I once worked another carpenter who I had respect and confidence. He and I hung 47 door slabs into metal frames, in 9 hours. We cut them, beveled them routed the hinges, bored the holes, sealed the tops and bottoms with sanding sealer, hung them, & installed locks. We hustled like hell, and enjoyed every minute of it.
Sometimes workers are like oil and water. I have sat for 15 minutes while my assigned helper went for something, and stopped for a smoke, then a little BS,........ you get the point. You have to know your crew.
Now, I don't want to start another ruckus here, (Yes, I do!!), but I once bid a job both Union and Non-Union. 40% difference. Why? Required crew sizes.
Hope for the best. Expect the worst.