I would appreciate feedback on the attatched proposal please.
1) Forget what you know, or think you know about me. Tell me what you feel or think about the contractor that generated or submitted this proposal to you. Keep in mind that this was submitted to and architect.
2) Tell me what you think of the actual content and structure of the proposal.
3) Give me a clue what you think of the price. This is an area of very exclusive homes, and high demand for excellent work. The wall tile is 6×6 glass, the floor is 4×4 and 12×12 porcelain. Large bathroom/dressing room, full tile shower, tile vanity top, 1/2 tile walls, cathedral ceilings. I will probably end up doing a full Kerdi shower system.
I have worked for this client (the archy’s client) before, and he was extremely happy with my work. This is a whole bath redo.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and comments.
I will have other questions re this proposal coming up.
Eric
For those not using Word, I can try to repost in another format. Let me know what you want.
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Edited 1/30/2005 4:02 pm ET by firebird
Replies
Here are some of my comments:
1. Use the word 'furnish' throughout, rather than switching to 'supply' as you do in item 3. Just for consistency...
2. Use the word 'Owner' (capital O) rather than 'owner/contractor' since you are also a contractor and it can be confused. Call him the Owner every time. Call yourself 'Contractor', capitol C.
3. In item 2 specify that you will install the setting bed after the pan has been tested and signed off by the town. There are some major risks in putting yourself in a partial role re a shower floor. If it leaks, you get a finger pointed at you. I might suggest you install the membrane and the shower drain for the plumber to tie into.... unless the plumber if your best buddy, the godfather of your kids, and the president of the PTA too.
4. Specify thickness of CBU. Say 'Wonderboard or equivalent backer board at Contractor's sole discretion'. If there is an item # for the rock screws, list it.
5. Use the word 'elevation' rather than 'height'... more formal
6. Item 4, reword as 'Owner warrants that the subfloor and underlying structure are sufficient in all ways for the installation of tile as proposed'. It would be appropriate to refer to the relevant section of the TCA for the l/360 or l/480 spec.
7. Item 5, specify whether you mean level 4 or level 5 finish. I don't think you need to list the tape, cornerbead, etc. Somewhere out there is a written spec for all the of drywall finish levels.
8. Item 6, I think it's really hard to specify exactly how good the hanging has to be, but this is a good start. Terms like 'neat, clean, as tight as possible'... that's all subjective.
9. Item 7, reword as 'Owner-supplied tile'. I would ask that the tile and grout colors be identified in writing as part of the contract (maybe a no cost c/o).
10. Item 8, reword as 'Furnish and install paint-grade, solid-core Luaun with recess for installation of mirror by others. Mirror recess shall be per attached detail 1' (and then attach a detail). 'All hardware to be furnished by Owner'.
11. Item 9, reword as 'Install window and doors casings, arch trim, and baseboard. All material to be 3/4 x 3-1/2" (or whatever) square-edge flat-grain Douglas fir, furnished by Owner.'
12. Re painting, I would specify the Benjamin Moore numbers for each paint type.
The dollar amount of the contract seems fine to me. I can't see how much tile there is to set, what the general conditions and access issues are, how many other subs you have to deal with (on the Owner's terms). There is no payment scheduled attached to the proposal, which I would probably do, but you can cover that in the contract instead. There is no language regarding concealed conditions and extra work... could also be included in the contract instead. There is no mention in the scope of work about all the careful site protection you're going to do. I always lead off with a couple of items like 'protect floors using luaun door skins and Clean-n-Safe dropcloths. Erect temporary dust barriers between work and living areas.' Anything you can do to show how careful you are will help them accept the proposal.
The letter to the archy seems fine also. It's typical to lead off with Dear Jeff:
Are you not required to have your licensing info on your letterhead? Out here that's a biggie.
Last thing... good of you to put this out for feedback. It's the kind of stuff we oughta be talking here.
Edited 1/30/2005 5:18 pm ET by davidmeiland
Thanks David,
1) Furnish is good!
2) There is an owner, and the contractor he is hiring to do the demo, framing, sub the electric and plumbing.........hence the use of my term :owner/contractor. I am contracting with the owner, through the architect (PM?) to do the listed tasks.
3) Good point about the testing and responsibility. I cannot install it myself, I would need to be a lecensed plumber.
4), 5) Both good points, thank you.
6) I was too lazy to look it up. I figured the architect should know this, and it is his implied responsibility. I'm working off of his plans. I should probably have some wording to the effect of my not bearing responsibility for engineering or design defects.
7) I was going to do the level of finish thing. Someone here got it for me. HO was not happy with the sheetrock and taping that the contractor completed for him in the other bathroom that I tiled. I did some touch ups, and pointed out that sanding is a no-no in a lived in dwelling after the contractor made a huge mess sanding away with #80 sandpaper!! This is why I am on deck for the taping this time!
8) I agree, I could not find specs on hanging, but I can't stand taping hacked up drwall installs. Just thought I'd let them know.
9) Yes, tile is allready spec'd, I don't worry about grout.
10) Detail of door recess; I would think the architect would supply one, he told me to skin it with luan, but then I'll have problems with the lockset. I can deal with a simple detail as such.
11) You are correct if I left out the detail of the trim spec.
12) You're right about the paint spec's, I know that they will not pick out colors until the tile is almost complete. I figure I was playing it fairly safe with the whites. I am flexible and they are too. I know when to be stern about specs like these.
I tend to leave the finer details for the contract, after any and all changes are made concerning the proposed work.
Good point about site protection though, I am meticulous about this, and if this were a first time client, I would have included more verbage to that point. Perhaps I should consider a paste in, or just a standard inclusion.
Municipality where the work is to be done has no licensing, otherwise it would be there. Publishing license #s is an issue though. My wife is a licensed massage therapist. Board of Regents tells them to NEVER display thier # as someone else may lift it and use it, or use it as a portal to more evil endeavors.
Thanks for your detailed look at my proposal though. I'm nearly exhausted just replying!!
As to the last sentence, I agree, this is what we should all be discussing more here, how to better run our business'. I wish FHB had more business stuff, but I am not sure that's part of thier mission. I read Remodeler for that.
Thanks again,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Similar to the format I use. I do included in my proposals a short paragraph at the top saying thanks for the oppurtunity. I also put a short paragraph at the end stating how I want to be paid and another with any special conditions. DanT
Thanks Dan,
I usually do the thank you thing. I've done enough work for this Architect that I felt ok to toss it.
Payment details are in the contract.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
As the general I would be happy with the proposal though my past history with you would be a lot more important.
I would want you to take full responsibility for the drain and waterproofing membrane. Our tiler does this as do we when we do our own tiling. If you are going to be doing this work, this is a must. We have used the schluter system that you describe on a number of jobs and have been happy with the results. Using the old showerpan methods and the sloped mud beds required more experience than we had though with persistence and help from an oldtimer we made those work too. In either case you need to familiarize yourself with these methods.
Good luck and don't be afraid to add money into your price that will allow you to learn the best methods for the situation. You will still be less than a more experienced tiler who is not even available. With research and care you can do a good job.
Thanks Schell, and good points about the membrane.
I hate the rubber, under mortar bed membranes...................now that I know about the Schluter, and have watched thier video!
Here, the plumber would do the underbed membrane and bear the resposibility for it.
I will need to bear the responsibility for the Schluter system if that is what we ultimately use. This would be my first time using it, and I am very excited to try it. It make perfect sense to me, and I believe I understand it fully.
Thanks for the good words, my abiity and skill are very closeto, if not the the best anyone can expect for tile and stone installations.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I would get rid of the !!!- Just my opinion it kind of drags down your professional proposal.
Perhaps something like; Painting labor and materials allowance covers white/off-whites paint. Colors darker than off-white may require additional paint and labor not covered in this proposal".
Nice job, always say thank you, people rarely tire of hearing it.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
You're right on !!!!!! ;)
Guess I was just rying to make a point. I don't usualyl get involved with painting, this is a special situation for a special client.
ThanksI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Eric - I'd say that's a good start, but there are several standard clauses I'd like to add if I were submitting that proposal -
terms of payment - when are they going to pay you, and how.
warrenty period.
civilians in the work area clause
access to building clause, including who will pay for wasted trips by you
unforseen changes clause - how will they be handled and how will they be paid for? When will they be paid for?
who is your point of contact to coordinate any changes or progress reports.
how often will you meet with point of contact, when, where, and for approx how long
how long (approx) do you plan to schedule for this job?
when can you start?
once you start, will you be there every day until it's finished? Or will there come a point at which you'll come every other day? How will you notify customer(s) of these schedule fluctuations?
How many employees will you have on site? How many subs will you coordinate?
What will be considered appropriate jobsite decorum for any and all personal you put on the job?
How will disputes over quality of work, or deviations from the signed agreement be dealt with?
I'm sure I've forgotten something. But I wouldn't want to have any type of signed document without all these clauses.
whooaoaaoaoao!
That's all covered in the contract.
So you mean that you wish to accept my proposal?
Thanks,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Looks good to me.
I'm assuming U have a boilerplate to attach for signature.
I also have the membrane installed and tested by my plubmer ... so I'm with U on that one.
One thing I have started to incluse for tile jobs ... I do specify "this price" is for standard dry mix grout ... there's an "additional cost factor" for upgrading to an "epoxy grout" ... which I've ben running into.
as an aside ... if you've never used an epoxy grout ... jump at the next chance. Make it a small project ... but give it a shot. I heard nothing but bad ... tried to avoid it like the plague ... then was forced into it once ... nice small bath floor /shower walls ...
there's a learning curve ... but I love the stuff. What ya lose in working smaller areas at break-neck speed to stay ahead of it setting up on ya .... U make up for with the fact that once that wipe down if finally done ... and you'll be dead from physical activity and stress by then ... yer done! Doesn't haze over. No wipe then wipe a thousend more times ...
Fact is ... anything left after the first wipe ... is permanant!
OK .. back to the proposal ...
Do U also have a payment schedule?
I include it ... as my proposal is the contract ...
and another thought on including the info Jim Blodgett talked about ...
I try to avoid mentioning start/stop dates ... you start mentioning that stuff ... and they stop remembering how they helped slow the project down .. and ya got trouble.
Will if I have to ... but that final is padded.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Thanks Jeff,
Not quite sure what you mean by the boilerplate thing. This is as far as I go until the client says yes, I get a deposit check, and then we go to contract.
Yeah the grout thing. I forgot. Man I need to get it together!
Don't talk to me about epoxy grout................unles something ha schanged in the last 10 years! I'm sure the product has improved, but the only time I tried it was a grief stricken exercise!
Payment schedule, work schedule and all of Blodgetts point are in the contract.
Thanks for the input Jeff,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
unles something ha schanged in the last 10 years!
It has ... drastically!
and one brand touts more teflon than epoxy ... still an epoxy ... but less traumatic.
I'll post a run thru sometime this week ... got some great tips from John Bridges site.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
One thing to consider: along with listing what is included in your proposal, list what is NOT included as well. CYA, especially if you are following someone else's work. Maybe indicate what condition you expect the sub before you to leave his / her work.
eric.... as already mentioned
you need a paragbraph for
Exclusions :
then list all the things you are NOT going to do.. you can include all of the Owner items here
what about "right of recission"
notice of liens
arbitration clause
insurance clause
dumpster, toilet faiclities, etcMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry about that. I didn't realize you'd have two documents.
But why do you have two? Seems to me, if you DO have two, the first should refer to the second. Something like "if you agree to these terms, I will forward our standard contract..." but then you can't expect to get a check with the first (which is supposed to legally bind you both?) document without them reading and agreeing to the second...
Maybe I'm missing something, Eric, but this two seperate documents method seems convoluted to me. Is there some reason you don't want to include all the contractual information initially?
I don't read the business section as much as I'd like, and if this is the concensus of a solid system for written agreements, just tell me and I'll gladly go away. But seriously, this seems very awkward. Is this what a lot of folks here are doing now instead of a single proposal that becomes an agreement with both parties signature and the deposit?
But why do you have two? Seems to me, if you DO have two, the first should refer to the second. Something like "if you agree to these terms, I will forward our standard contract..." but then you can't expect to get a check with the first (which is supposed to legally bind you both?) document without them reading and agreeing to the second...
Maybe I'm missing something, Eric, but this two seperate documents method seems convoluted to me. Is there some reason you don't want to include all the contractual information initially?
You're right. I'm a little screwed up right now. I have been working for the same two or thee people for like the last three years, I have not been good about the contract thing, because we have had a REALLY good relationship. Now I am paying for it.
I don't always ask for a deposit with the approval of the contract. I did this time to nail down the reservation on the calendar. No one has ever questioned giving me a deposit this way.
I relly need to re-think how I am aproaching this all. As much information as gets put out here, and good at that, i never seem to be able to put it together.
Thanks for your thoughts..........
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Most of that sounds like contract stuff to me. Do you put any or all of it in proposals? I try to give them most of the stickler details in the contract, after they've accepted my proposal and selected me to do the work. That's when I tell them that they need to stay the hell away from me while I'm there working, except on Thursdays between 1:15 and 1:30... during those hours it's OK to get close enough to talk!
couple things...
1) i never mail Proposals.. i always schedule a time to present them..
2) My Proposal is merely an unexecuted Contract.. IE: when i present it.. if both parties agree, we execute it , i pick up my deposit, and we have a CONTRACT.
the only thing left is to start or wait for the 3 day Right of Recission...
mailing Proposals, or giving them a set of specs and a price without a means to turn it into a contract means that you CANNOT close.. you make it impossible to close the deal right then and there..
always go to that meeting with the goal of closing.. or don't present your Proposal if you are not ready to closeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
1) i never mail Proposals.. i always schedule a time to present them..
Mike, is this a known factor with your potential client right from the get go?? In other words, do you insist at your initial visit or before, that once you have prepared a proposal for them, that you will then visit them with the proposal in your hand..............to do what??
I mean, aren't they smart enough to know that you are going to expect them to sign it? And don't tell me that you don't prepare proposals for people that are not going to hire you. Give me the answer that will satisfy those of us who are often in the position of submitting a proposal angainst another contractor.
To what purpose do we tell them that we need to visit them with the proposal and not mail it. ie I'm sorry, I won't have time to meet with you this week Eric, but I am real anxious to get your proposal. Would you mind mailing/faxing it??
Don't tell me to put it off either, because I KNOW Buck Construction is gonna mail HIS out and it's gonna get there before mine.
I don't mean for you to feel like I have an attitude, but I often see good questions answered here from a very singular perspective, that of a very successfull and well entrenched contractor, as opposed to a not so well entrenched contractor, perhaps doing business in a very competetive area. We can't all be as good as you!!
Thaks,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
You are right, Eric, in your comments to Mike.
First of all, Mike has prequalified his potential client in a couple of very important ways, and here they are. His client has paid in advance for the proposal Mike is bringing over in person. And Mike has given the client some strong idea of what kind of cost the client will pay for the project.
So, Mike is pretty darn sure his client is going to accept the proposal.
Mike is doing mostly design/build remodels and additions, and this is exactly where his approach to doing proposals and contract closing can work.
It won't work at all in my chosen niche, that of building brand new custom homes. And it won't work either, when you are doing various types of subcontract specialties, working for GCs.
I think that your proposal should lay out your scope of work in as much detail as possible, and that it should reference somehow the information or situation given you by whomever solicited your quote. And it should do it all on the proposal document itself, without attachments.
For a job with architect involvement, or for a GC with a good set of plans and specs, your proposal will reference certain parts of, or all, of those documents. Your litany of scope will spell out what part of the work you are proposing. If you are proposing alternate materials or methods from what is specified or expected, your quote should give specifics. Finally, you give a lump-sum price. That's it. No quantities, no price breakdown, none of that stuff.
If at all possible, you follow Mike's advice and deliver it in person and ask for the order. If you get the order verbally right then and there, speak out about your payment terms, and say you will get them a contract for execution shortly.
If you don't have it, spend $70 with JLC and get "the Contractor's Legal Kit" by contractor and attorney Gary Ransome. It's worth it.
Thanks for the reply Gene.
Funny thing is, (after the rant to Mike) I realize that most of the work I do is for repeat, or very strong referrals.
Meaning, I will most likely get the job, and I am NOT 'bidding' against another contractor. No need to 'close' the sale in this situation. I'm usually not afraid to ask if I am the only one looking at the job. Often people are too busy to shop around, and if I came to them by way of a co-worker or relative, it is likely that they wish to hire the job done.
That said, I still occassionally come into a potential client where I am perhaps bidding against another contractor, or I will need to do some design or specifications and that is where I need to expand my abilities. I do not do sub work. Working for an architect is about as close as it gets.
Interestingly enough, I often have clients, that are very well educated and have strong wants and desires, so much to the point that they know exactly what they want, they have plans already and all their selections made. Not much to sell in that instance. And not much for me to learn about 'selling' myself or the job.
I have always had a sour attitude about 'selling' and truly despise most salespeople to the point of walking out of places because of being treated like a common idiot!
It will be interesting to see Mike's reply to my line of questioning.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
been designing a small partial basement remodel for a couple months, modest thing
after several meetings,Owner wanted me to take all the frills out.. which i did, but we had never developed a budget, since the scope kept changing
had a meeting to present my Proposal...
everything was in order...but the Owner was stunned at the Price..i asked what they had in mind... it was less than a third of the final price
i suggested a few things to further reduce the scope..
they said they wanted to discuss the project between them, so i thanked them for their time and told them i would call the next day with some more suggestions, thinking we would further reduce the scope
i left both originals of the Proposal with them
next morning, after getting another job stocked for the board hangers, i went back to the office to work on the above reductions..
there was the signed proposal, with the deposit check, with no reductions..
they want what they want, and my Proposal is what they wanted..
i made some minor reductions in price from some things i had found anyways without changing the scope, and gave them the slightly reduced price to thank them..
i mean, basement job ?... or finish shingling the other job in 10 degree weather ?
so... now all we have to do is build it.... but the contract is executed..
get the close !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thought I'd close this up, been sitting on it a few days.
Thanks to all of you that offered your input and critisisms. We all have a different way of approaching the goal of selling ourselves. What works so well for one person, or in one area of the country may not work well at all for a different person or in a different area.
It is hard for some of us to admit that, but it is true. There are some basic underlying methods though, and I think I was able to glean some of that from this thread.
That's it, and thanks again to all of you for your valuable time.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Edited 2/7/2005 5:02 pm ET by Eric Paulson
Congrats to you Mike!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I usually go to the first meeting with my portfolio. I usually go to the second meeting with my proposal. I expect there to be changes made once the proposal is presented, so I never put that in contract form, which takes up many more pages (typical proposal is 2-3 pgs., typical contract is 6-8). After the proposal has been hashed over, I can usually go back and put together a contract that is ready to sign. In thinking over the last several go-rounds, I can't think of one where the contract could have gone to meeting #2. I also don't think the contract itself makes a particularly good sales document--I prefer the proposal for that, which is the 'here's what I'm going to do for you' stuff. Once they've decided to use me then I feel comfortable throwing the contract at them, which includes all the terms and conditions and owner's responsibilities.
I'm happy to make three trips to get to the signing. It helps me get to know people and what they're like. On a job a while back I called a cabinet refacing company to come and look at a kitchen. The salesman measured up, wrote a proposal on the spot, and offered it to me to sign. That is not how I want to come off to my customers.
Of course, one could bring the contract to meeting #2 and then address changes thru change orders. That means you're whipping out change orders before even starting the job.
That sounds like a pretty good system, David. And I like your reasoning for not trying to "get the signature". When do you require a deposit?
I ask for a deposit if I'm going to special-order any materials. I don't go out of pocket for anything I couldn't use elsewhere. I'll bring standard lumber and such to a job without a down payment, but no countertops, windows, etc.
I don't ask for a scheduling deposit, or haven't yet, but I can certainly imagine doing so. My contract allows the owner to cancel for any reason at any time, and states that I am entitled to receive 'reasonable overhead and profit for work contracted but not performed' if they do so... meaning, I guess, that I could sue for such payment if someone really mangled my schedule. What are the chances of me doing that?? About zero. If someone signed the contract and then asked to cancel it before I did any work, I'd consider asking for a payment to cover the time I had invested in site visits, estimating, writing the contract, meetings, etc.
I'm curious about your need for advance payment for windows.
If my supplier delivers my window package on the second day of a month, I won't see the invoice until the 5th of the next month, and then I have 25 days to pay, to avoid late fees. They'll whack 2 percent off if I pay quickly.
That window package might have been ordered 8 weeks previously. For a customer to be paying me at window order time, way in advance of delivery, I'll have that money as much as 3-1/2 months early.
Windows and countertops are custom ordered items and cannot be returned or used elsewhere. I guess you are saying you insist on 100% early deposit on all custom ordered items. Is that right?
You're clients must not be getting bank financing.
When I was in the door business, we were selling to the big millwork distributors like Huttig, Brosco, and those all bought up by Andersen Distribution, and the big hitters got terms from us as generous as 90 days with full discount. It may be even worse now. I'll bet their window suppliers were flogged into the same position.
Thanks again David.
A few others care to join this thread?? C'mon in, the waters fine!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
BS....why wouldn't you ask for the close ?
my Proposal is a one page..
it's got an expected time to start.. and finish..
it's got space for 5 lines to describe the project..
it's got 10 lines for boiler plate....
it's got 6 lines for special conditions and payment schedule
it's got notices about liens, right of recission, insurance, and arbitration
it's got my signature block... which is blank
it's got an acceptance signature block
the description of the project can reference plans and specs, which are attached, and usually does..
we talk about it.. if there is a reason they don't want to sign , i find out what it is.. if the amount is too much ..i schedule another meeting and go back and change the Scope of Work.. if i don't close the first time , i usually close the 2d time..
it took a long time to finally realize that mailing proposals was about the dumbest thing in the world..
after i've done all of my estimating , and we've talked about their needs and desires... what's next ?... either they want me to do the job , or they don't..
jeesh, get on with it..... ask for the signature... the reason mine ain't signed is .. i sign it right in front of them .. after we've initialed any changes we both agree to..
no change order.. i know the job.. i just sweated bullets building it in my head..and i have the whole thing in a 3-ring binder, right there, so i have access to all the numbers
i can make most changes right on the spot... or go back and think about a new line of attack.. and present a new Proposal
c'mon... what's the problem .. you guys sound like you're too shy to walk across the gym and ask one of those girls to dance ... what are they gonna do ?... they're gonna say, yes..... or ......no.... ASK !
what do you think you're there for ? ask for the signature and the deposit ...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Out of curiosity, Mike, do any of your clients say, "I'm OK on price and everything, but I cannot sign your contract without my attorney reviewing it?"
In my little neck of the woods, everybody building these trophy vacation homes runs into that, just about every time.
The one I'm starting after snowmelt here, my client took my 23-pager, he and his lawyer went over it, and now it's up to 25.
As I said, your approach is spot-on for design-build remodeling and additions. Maybe even for very major additions.
But in many many other variations of this crazy residential building business, that goal of the closing at the meeting, and walking out the door with the check and signed contract in hand, just doesn't happen.
gene.... if they want their lawyer to review it.. that's fine.. but what makes you think i'm going to acquiesce to their lawyer's changes ?....
you have the plans
you have the specs
why does the contract have to get complicated .. does that make it better ?
i wonder what your 25 page contract does to protect both parties that my one page contract doesn't ?
i've read enough AIA contracts to know that i'm not signing them
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, my contract is lifted entirely from the JLC book, "Contractors' Legal Kit."
The author offers a short, medium, and long form contract for use as situations require. Since this is an out-of-state client, and it is a big job, I've chosen to use the long form.
Almost two-thirds of the pages are used to spell out scope and specs, plus the details of payment events. I had a whole lotta spec and allowance detail to cover, since the 28-page planset came without a spec manual, and I had to essentially write one.
The rest is just standard-issue boilerplate about insurance, change order mechanisms, time-is-of-essence, schedule, default, etc.
Here is just one little of the lawyer-inserted B.S.: free from accumulation of waste materials, surplus materials, or rubbish caused by operations under the contract). It was plugged into the section about jobsite cleanup.
I think the lawyer felt he needed to jamb a bunch of stuff in there to justify his fee. The guy (the attorney) is the schmuck who bid-shopped the job to a couple stooges, and is probably p*ssed that his buddy didn't close the job.
gene... i've got the Contractor's Legal Kit
and i've got a one page contract.. referencing as many attachements as i need..
plans, specs, payment schedule... etc..
one thing to remember.. my contract has the standard Arbitration Clause for ConstructionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"...the standard Arbitration Clause for Construction"?
Do tell.
<<<<the standard Arbitration Clause for Construction>>>>
"Any and all disputes concerning the performance or interpretation of this agreement shall be decided thru the rules of the American Arbitration Association, specifically the Construction Industry Rules supplemented by the procedures for residential construction disputes. Any award shall be final and binding."Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"because I KNOW Buck Construction is gonna mail HIS out and it's gonna get there before mine."
Not me buddy! I don't mail nothing ...
Ya can't sell it if ya ain't there!
and I certainly don't give the details over the phone.
I set an appointment. Then confirm ... then show.
Then we review the project ... the ideas ... and the proposal.
I read thru the proposal .. as they follow along with their copy.
Then .... I like the assumption close ... I say ... all we have to do is sign both copies, and I'll need that start check for the amount of $1234.56 , made out to Buck Const LLC ...
btw ... when they're reading yours ... and hemming and hawing .. maybe this .. maybe that ... and U never really know why ya lost the job ...
By simply asking for a handful of cash ... those objections come pouring out!
And that's a good thing ...
let's review your wants ... and your needs ... any questions/comments concerns/issues .... OK ... here's why I'm the best-est ... now ... if I can just get the sig and check we're on our way.
Can't sell if you're not there!
70% of non-sales happen because the salesmen never asked for the sale.
I ask.
like my old salesmanager Bob used to say ...
"If ya ain't selling, yer visiting ... and I ain't paying U to visit."
and like my old sales manager Ron used to say ...
"Don't be afraid of the money" ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
had 2 more thoughts ...
one ... I could teach ya how to set rock solid appointments each and every time ...
but that's stuff I learned while telemarketing ... and I know how much ya hate telemarketers ...so I won't lower ya!
and ... if someone picks my proposal over yours because it arrived in the mail quicker ... I'm pretty sure I don't want them as customers.
I usually wrap up the first meeting by saying I'll have some numbers in a week or so ..
Unless I knw the next two weeks are crazy ... then I say I'm crazy for the nexy two weeks, and I need to set aside the time their proposal deserves ... so it'll be 3 to 4 weeks ... I don't lie.
I have had a few people say ... We already have 2 proposals, and we need yours asap, so we can get started on this asap ...
To which I reply .... If you'r not ready to take this slow in the planning stages and think things through so we can develop a solid plan of attack, I might not be the type of contractor you are looking for. I don't rush the planning stages.
If you want someone to start tomorrow ... or next week ... or even next month ... I'm not your guy. I'm booked and will fullfill my current obligations, then start with who ever is next in line. Sorry.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Most of that sounds like contract stuff to me. Do you put any or all of it in proposals? I try to give them most of the stickler details in the contract, after they've accepted my proposal and selected me to do the work.
Generally, that is what I do. At least when I am paying attention, which I have not lately.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Eric,
I haven't read any responses already posted in order to look at it with fresh eyes, so apologies if I'm repeating previously made points.
Pick "furnish" or "supply" and stick with it.
Remove comma after "Durock" in #3
Points 5 & 6 should be revised. I think scope of work should follow the construction process as much as possible so the "finish drywall" point comes after "dryall furnished and installed by others".
change to: "8) Furnish and install paint grade solid core Luan door. Install mirror (furnished by Owner) in recess of door. Hinges and levers to be selected and furnished by Owner.
Lose the "Color selection is limited to whites and off whites!!! That means no colors!!!" That is unprofessional. State what colors are accepted and use periods.
Jon Blakemore
Thanks, all good points.
I needa good beatin!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.