crosscut options for cabinet building
I just got done building a custom tall cabinet for a kitchen job. I realize I do not have a sure-fire crosscutting technique for 23″+ pieces, (plywood). I use the Festool plunge with the rail to rip down the stock and then I finish cut in my table saw. That works every time, no issues there. (yes, I know i can make finish cuts with the Festool. I won’t go into the issues at this point.) But when it comes time to crosscut these large pieces, it’s almost a crapshoot to get spot on 90 degrees for the 8′ sections to be broken down. Once i get down to 3-4 ft., I can use my crosscut sled. I am looking at adding a radial arm saw, but the width range is not encouraging (16-17 on 10″ models; 20 on 12″, etc.) So I am close to breaking down to buy the MFT the Festool has designed, if only for the accuracy of the cross cuts. anything I’m missing here for cabinet construction on 20″+ stock? thanks. (BTW, I don’t have the space for an left support on my 10″ contractor’s table saw.)
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity — the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Replies
Any thing wrong with building your own jig to cross cut with the Festool?
I've mad at least a half a dozen for commom old circular saws I've owned over the years.
No, guess not!
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
you can make jigs like a shooting board, or any straightedge to crosscut with.
If you do alot of it you might look at a panel saw like they have at lowes. They aren't that expensive. I think you can even get a kit to make your own.
what I generally do when crosscutting sheet goods is to use a straightedge clamp that will serve as a guide for my circ saw. I square the clamp with a speed square or a dwall t square or a framing square. I leave it a little oversize cut then do the finish cutting on the table saw.
Webby
Edited 4/28/2009 7:50 pm ET by webby
The JLC article on track saws says that dewalt's right angle accessory arm is compatible with the festool track. Might be worth checking out.
Thanks, I read that article and missed that fact. I'll check it out.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I epoxied a maple 1x3 to a Festo rail, clamping an accurate rafter square to it until it dried. Then I drilled and countersunk it for screws -- perfect.Add a little tab to the far end of the 1x3 that will hook on the top of your work, so that the rail isn't always flopping up onto its edge.If you really want to tweak out, you could rig a Festo rail with cable, like the sliding rule on a drawing board --Instant panel saw!AitchKay
I just finished doing a large kitchens worth of cabinets with my MFT, and love it! I just ripped a bunch of material to width with the long guide rail, set the stop on the MFT, and knocked it out in no time. This new little doo-hickey from Festool looks interesting, though.
http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/parallel-guide/parallel-guide-set-P00108.html
that's exactly what I was imagining. Festool seems to offer the best solution given my current resources...making my own jig notwithstanding. The website on your post is not coming up completely, but by reading the description, it makes complete sense. I end up doing that each time with my fold up ruler, in any case. In a production run, I make a jig.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Radial arms are good, but never come back to true 90 degrees when you move'em.
I use a router with a FT bit and a MDF and maple panel jig that clamps to the bottom of the work piece. Just rip within 1/16" of the line, clamp on the jig and clean up and square the edge. Need to support both ends of the work so it's steady. The jig is just a 24" piece of 3/4" MDF with a piece of 4/4 maple bradded to one side, and trimmed flush or a hair under 23/32" so your router won't hit it when you start.
What about this
http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=212d16c696d98110cbc4c5a1813400a3&topic=6852.0
wow. what a great discussion. questions were right on target with what I'm struggling with. Now I don't know whether to get the table or the guides. Right now, it's not possible to buy both. Thanks for the link.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
You might take a look at these roll-your-own parallel guides, too.http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/jigs-inventions/1760-my-new-parrallel-guides-great.htmlThere's also the same review (that was already mentioned) with a better discussion going on here http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/festool-saw-reviews/1899-review-festool-parallel-guides.html'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
I love my 8.5" Hitachi slider for crosscuting. To cut a 24" piece, cut 12" then flip. perfect every time. Much better than a dangerous radial arm.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Hi, Make a piano for your festool, my camera is at the job so i cant give any pics.
1. take a 4x8 sheet and crosscut to 53"
2 get a 1 1/2x1/2 x 4' poplar or oak piece
3 cut it into a 36" and a 12" piece
4 take the 36" piece and screw it to the 48" side butting bottom and left side
5 off the right edge of your 36" fence make a 3/4/5 angle using your rail
6 using 1 screw mount the 12" at the top making a stop you should have 50" between the fences
7 cross cut a test piece
8 flip the rt side piece end for end towards you. butt them against the 36" fence. if there is a gap to the top move the 12" fence 1/2 the distance, of the gap, to the right
if there is a gap at the bottom move the 12" fence 1/2 the distance to the left.
I made this system originally to cut laminate with my TS 55. It is movable and I get crosscuts to 1/128" (watch for seasonal changes with partical board if you use it thought) with this.
Thanks Craig
I made a crosscut sled for my table saw. set up a stop system for repeated cuts. Fairly easy to make.
You can always buy a store bought one fairly inexpensive.
Hey, great to see you posting
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Yeah, I about dropped my teeth. Glad to see he's back safe and sound...I assume.
Too long gone...
Here just showing ya'll some love
Back at ya, Ron!
He's baaaaack....
hope all is well.
From:
Sancho <!----><!---->
May-12 9:59 pm
To:
unTreatedwood <!----><!---->unread
I made a crosscut sled for my table saw. set up a stop system for repeated cuts. Fairly easy to make.You can always buy a store bought one fairly inexpensive.
Sancho,
I have a sled, but I can't get the whole 8 ft piece in right after ripping.... not enough space.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I'll approace this as an installer, not a cabinet builder.
just how accurate do you have to be?
the bottom is gonna sit on the floor ... and more than likely be wrapped with at least shoe ... most likely base and shoe.
and the top ... is it gonna get a crown detail?
if so ... all those cut edged you're trying to get perfectly square are never to be seen ... and covered by a trim detail.
from where I sit ... no need for perfection.
I'd rip them with the Festool.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Spoken like a guy who doesn't build cabinets.Plumb and square are the references that simplify cabinet making and installation.
wow ... you picked right up on that line ... "from an installers prospective"!
Nice work!
anyways ... I've built cabinets too.
marking a straight 90 deg across the bottom and cutting to within a 32'nd is all you need to do. It's a box ... it ain't rocket science. And if you're so worried about that "close as 32nd of an inch top and bottom ... if they're both off what's that screw ya ... a 16th? ... you can always mark another line in the middle of the inside as a reference line to measure from. That's what I do when I make built in's in old crooked houses. The backs / bottoms / tops might be all cocked to follow the crooked old walls for a tight fit ... but the interior and FF are straight.
again ... it ain't rocket science ... is a festool isn't getting the desired results something's being overcomplicated.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
you know, I get the feeling that this is going in the direction of cabinet makers are "god-like"(i am a cab guy) and installers are "hacks" if you will( i am an installer too) Maybe this is not the case, but is what I have seen this mentality slapped back and forth for the last 20 years.
As a side note, when "perfectly" square cabinets and their parts are used, it is usually a lot easier to install. More specifically, frameless cabinetry and concealed hardware. This is coming from a guy that has has used many sliding table saws, panel saws, and 32mm machinery.
Another example is the attitude of "framers vs carpenters". At least it seems to be this way in many areas of calif and how they define the terms of framers and carpenters Many framing crews should never touch a stick of finish lumber. nor should a carpenter who deals with <1/64" ever touch a sidewinder. And this one is from personal experience. i can get it done, but not at the same profit level as framers. But then again, i don't bid framing for a living.
agreed.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Good statement. I agree. I would say the majority of the carpenters who post on this site cross over to all phases of the trade. They may have their specialty concentration, (framers, cabinets, installers, trim work, siders, finishers etc), but we do all the phases from time to time. Same way with renovation, restorations, conservation and new work.
There are craftsmen and there are hacks. I have as much admiration for someone who can apply vinyl siding and bend aluminum consistently and make it look great, as I do the high end cabinet maker.
Thing is I'm an installer too so I get to see both sides of the story. That would be why I mentioned plumb. Wow....you picked right up on that!Like I said, square and plumb simplify the job considerably. When the boxes are true, the only fitting required are the scribes where the installation hits the walls.No racking of boxes (you do know what that is don't you?) caused by out of square cuts means everything lines up without having to fudge it behind shoe or crown and no need to fiddle readjusting the slides and hinges so the square drawer boxes sit level and the drawer reveals line up with the door reveals.Countertops sit a lot flatter too if you make your boxes all precisely the same height and your panels all to within 1/32" (+/- 1/64") of square on the diagonal. That doesn't happen when you work with a 1/16" tolerance for length on your parts.But you go ahead and do it your way.
"No racking of boxes ..."
wait ... go back to that part ... which one is the "box"?
thanks ... you seem to have so much you could teach me ...
"without having to fudge it behind shoe or crown"
yeah ... built up trim work on cabinets is the classic sign of poor workmanship.
???
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Geeze Louise, I've built perfectly accurate cabinet boxes with a worm drive and straightedge. What's the problem?
appearantly it's impossible or we're freaking amazing!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Here is the cabinet that gave me heartburn. 11/16ths maple ply and very small margin of error from existing countertop. Smaller cabinets hide any out of square-ness more easily. But this was a pain...and I just wanted to be able to have 100% confidence in my crosscuts. I've been using all the approaches, or most the ones mentioned. None are bulletproof.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do � the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. � The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.� -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I'm with you, Jeff.
A good square and a straightedge saw guide (Festool, EZ, homemade, whatever) does the job for all but a production shop where hi-dollar tools certainly speed up the process, but don't necessarily increase the accuracy.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
My next suggestion was to make a "T Square type jig, like a draftsman T and use that. It's what I'd do.
I understand. But when my crosscuts are not exactly square, the boxes suffer during assembly. the taller the cabinet, the more critical the issue.
I make face frames first and then the boxes. It now takes too much time to insure square after ripping the plywood. I want a more reliable production approach. I ordered the Festool MFT and it is going to be delivered tomorrow. I'll report back after assembly and install.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
All you need is one pair of square edges, either top or bottom as your reference point, for the carcass/box. If the other pair is slightly off, it doesn't matter much and usually is covered by crown, or base.
If the bottom is slightly off, it doesn't matter as it needs to be cut/shimmed/levelled anyway during install. Everything rides on your common reference point. From a cabinetmaker and installer.Expert since 10 am.
Can you squeeze a 52' fence on your tablesaw?
For custom cabinets I've been cutting sheet goods on my table saw with a 52" fence for years. I used a stock Unifence for the first 3 or 4 years, then bought the 52" unifence.
I have a side extension table with rollers on the top surface that I use to suport 8' long rips of ply over when I need to trim 8' lengths of ply down a few inches. I've also used an oversized sled. Both make it easy (ans safe) to slide long rips of ply through the blade and there's no skewing of the cut line.
Very accurate, I always measure the diagonals of the first cut to make sure things are spot on.
I've got the same setup - 52" fence, roller supports, long outfeed table. Works great for the rips. Like the OP, the challenge is on the crosscut on the tall units. I have some that are ~92". For those the only way to go is a clamp-on guide as most have been suggesting.
I really like that one with the 1/4" base and the thicker guide - really fast to line up and gives a nice edge to use for scoring the ply with the knife. That ont goes in the tricks grab-bag for sure.
I have a side-mounted support table that I can flip up. It's covered with these:View Image
It allows me to trim tall carcass components with an oversized crosscut sled, the rollers keep the overhanging end of the ply from "dragging" and binding the cut. The long pieces float along over the table ever so sweetly.
Several years ago I built an air cushion table, just like an air hockey table. Built a large hollow torsion box to act as the table saw in and outfeed table. Supply was from an air hose through the bottom and the outflow was through hundreds of small holes I drilled in the top. You could move a sheet of ply with fingertip pressure.
Man, that air table sounds sweet!
I've got the same rollers, mounted on a folding metal sawhorse from Home Cheapo. Just a single row but it allows me to handle full sheets by myself. I need the fold-ability cause the shop is tiny. I've only got about 50" to the left of the blade and need to open the garage door if the piece I'm ripping is longer than 97".
So even if I had the extra-large crosscut slide I couldn't trim a little bit off the end of a big sheet. Mind you, I'm not complaining -heck, I've got a shop for goodness sake!
Ive been thinking about making on for years. Either like you did or with the real air table fitttings. The problem with the fittings is the price and volume is the only way to get the price down. I just don't need that many. I have some samples but the problem now is that I lost who the supplier is. Time to start the search over.
Question, with your table, can a compressor easily keep up? I have a large 80 gal type and don't really want it running non stop. The neighbors don't appreciate it, nor my family(whine, whine, whine). The air fittings work with a blower motor, so it more high vilume, low pressure(less noise)
I'm thinking the same thing!
But I've been eyeing the air hockey tables at Sears, looking for an old one to steal the ideas from.
I didn't use a compressor, I used a shop vac motor. My compressor is a Thomas 2820, top of my head I think it's only 4-5 cfm @ 100psi. I get much more volume from the shop vac. It's almost like airless sprayers versus HVLP. With an air table you need volume, not pressure.With the shop vac I could run the vac as a blower for an air table or as a vacuum for a "hold-down" or "downdraft" table. The hold down worked well for routing, sanding, etc, but the problem was that the air holes would sometimes clog with sawdust. Maybe proper air holes wouldn't. My table was just 3/4" melamine with holes drilled though. No manufactured or machined airflow orifice, etc. The shop vac motor was boxed in, it wasn't any louder than my dust collection system.
here's some:
http://abairtables.com/info.html
http://www.ehow.com/how_4887189_build-air-hockey-table-home.html
Edited 5/17/2009 5:28 pm by migraine
Pretty nifty!
I agree. That would have been my very first choice. I don't have the space however. And I don't have the cash to step up to a larger cabinet saw with an extension, either. Believe me, I would have taken that option in another time warp....
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Okay, I read your question when you first posted it & never responded and with all the back & forth #### on the answers your receiving its time I chime in,
You state you have a Festool plunge saw, so whats the problem? you have the best set up for what you are doing.
I'm building a higher end maple kitchen right now using my Festool plunge saw & rails.
1st. Rip about a eight inch or so of the long edge of your sheet to get a new edge to work with.
2nd. Start ripping your panels off the sheet starting with the new edge you ripped in step 1.
Now to cross cut, just use a framing square, take a eight inch or so to square up the end of your panel that you ripped from your sheet & now just measure your needed panel lengths, use your framing square, place your 1400mm rail & cross cut.
Your finish panels will come out square every time if your first make fresh new edges on your plywood, factory sheets are not always square & even if the leave the factory that way, they get beat up by the time you get them to your shop to use.
Panels must be square in order to make quailty cabinets, it makes assembly & install come out near perfect & a lot more fun,
Thats my 2 cents
No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.
That is exactly what I do. To the "T". The rips go just fine, and I can adjust on the table saw if there are issues. But I have 100% production with the rips. My crosscuts on the first cuts of a tall cabinet are the tough ones, and yes, I have discovered the factory cuts are NOT exact....unfortunately. But I want something that will give me 100% confidence in an exact 90 degree cut...every time. To that end, I got the new MFT/3 Festool table this week, and when I'm done with my sons' graduation, I will proceed to set it up. Right off the bat, I need to make some radiator covers, and it will be the perfect test as I use 45 degree cuts to hid any joints. it'll be the perfect test.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
If you're going to build cabinets, you need a cabinet saw - not a table saw! A proper true panel saw isn't a bad idea either.
This is the realm of true industrial tools, with each one probably costing at least double the highest price you can imagine.
The "cabinet saw" resembles a table saw, except that nearly the entire left side is capable of sliding. This lets you make exactly square crosscuts and dados.
A true panel saw is nothing like the saw you see used at Home Depot. The backing is typically solid, and a clamp automatically secures the work, before the computer guides the saw where directed. Such saws are capable of great precision.
you're right. I know exactly what you are talking about. But I don't have the space or the $$$. The panel saw would definitely solve my problem, without a doubt!! But for 1/3 to 1/2 the price, I think I have solved it. I dont do large production runs of cabinets. Otherwise, that would be my choice, absolutely.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.