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That's the kind of coping you pay someone else to do ;)
Nice job!
Thanks.I spent a day and a half installing about 200' of that 4-1/4" oak crown in a great room, hall, and entry...I'm beat.
Some folks have all the luck.
Way to go.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thanks...I am pretty lucky.
I'd much rather do that all day than put up the 7" MDF junk my customer wanted. Of course with an egg and dart and rope profile it was impossible to copeman i hate mitering crown.
That is difficult stuff to work with...hard to line up both the egg & dart and the rope on each miter.I sometimes preassemble inside mitered corners with Titebond trim and molding glue, 23 ga. micropinned from the backside and clamp it up with Collins clamps. After the small runs have set up, I install. That only works for small runs and returns though.Here are a couple of pics of the clamps and preassembled returns.Another question: Do you have a saw that allows you to cut 7" crown "in position" (bedded on the saw "upside down and backwards) ? That would be really helpful with crown like that.
Yep, only I didn't stain mine. You're right, it's a lot of work.
This is probably a dumb question, but is it installed upside down?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I sure hope not.I think it is meant to look like a built up crown, with the squared off part up at the ceiling.
I'm probably wrong. The two things that caught my eye were the apparent spring angle and the position of the ogee. I say "apparent" because, in this pic:
View Image
I think the spring angle may be distorted because the cut is not square (like a cut for an inside corner)?
I've always used the position of the primary ogee to determine which end is up. I have installed very little crown that does not have the standard colonial profile, so take my little rule of thumb with a big grain of salt.
On one hand, if you installed it the other way, you would have to miter because of the "bead" that the rabbet creates.BTW- nice joinery.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The spring angle is distorted by the miter cut, as you surmised. This crown is actually 45* spring angle...not typical.Glad you like the work...I actually enjoyed working with the unusual profile.
This is probably a dumb question, but is it installed upside down
I hate to say it, but I think it is installed upside down. D'oh!
A classic crown has the large ogee towards the top, with the concave part towards the top.
I don't know the proper terminology for the rest of the details on the profile you used, but there's a component in the middle that bears a strong resemblance to the bottom part of the cornice in a classical entablature.; it's kind of a shadow line or drip edge for lack of a better term.
The good news is that the profile still seems to work in the manner you installed it -- my comments above are in more of a strict stylistic context.
View Image
View Image
Edited 8/16/2007 3:19 pm ET by Ragnar17
That's what I thought...doh!
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."
Looks that way to me.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Do you happen to know the proper term for the "drip edge" shown in the window head detail on post 93559.39?
Hey, what drip edge? the metal looks to be wrapped over the crown.
The 1x "drip edge" that is immediately adjacent to the soffit.
The red on the rake is a bed mould, there is only fascia and crown on the window
Yes, I'm talking about the window head -- not the rake trim.
Here's another picture with some letters to help ID what I'm talking about.
I'm calling "A" the soffit, and "B" the drip edge (the 1x trim with light green paint). I guess that the best term for "B" is simply fascia.
View Image
Edited 8/17/2007 6:13 pm ET by Ragnar17
Yeah, "B" is just the fascia.
Looks like you found a way. Nice job.
Thanks Mike.I had to scribe the crown to an angled stone fireplace too (don't look too close):
Basswood,
I want to make sure you caught my added comment at the end of the post above:
The good news is that the profile still seems to work in the manner you installed it -- my comments above are in more of a strict stylistic context.
I don't want you to have some "oh $hit" feeling for the rest of the day! ;) The work looks great.
You might be correct in terms of the most popular classical crown with the Cyma Recta at the top. The crown, as I installed it has the Ogee or Cyma Reversa at the bottom (from Architectural Review): Cyma Recta
Cyma recta has a concave curve over a convex curve. It is essentially a cavetto over an ovolo and was traditionally used in Classical architecture in the cornice and architrave.Cyma Reversa
Cyma reversa, also called an Ogee, is the opposite of cyma recta; it has a convex curve over a concave curve. Like Cyma Recta, it was used in Classical architecture in the cornice or architrave of a building.We did hold it up with the Cyma Recta at the top and the other details at the bottom (prior to the install)...all details were obscured in shadow. As installed, the lines at the top of profile seem to "pop."If I did get it upside down, so did the millwork shop in their profile book...and the owners like it this way. So, for this customer, it is "correct."I would note, that most crown profiles that have the large Cyma Recta detail at the top, start with a small cove (cavetto = "little cave") at the bottom--as do most bed moldings and they end with the convex curve (ovolo = "egg") at the top. I viewed this crown as like a bed molding supporting the top of the cornice.With a 45* crown you can probably do either orientation and still fall within the classical president. With 38/52 the thinking has been done for you.
Edited 8/16/2007 6:40 pm ET by basswood
The crown, as I installed it has the Ogee or Cyma Reversa at the top
Actually, I'd say you have the cyma reversa installed at the bottom of the profile -- which is actually the intuitive location for a reversa. A cyma reversa looks better if it is visually "supporting" something above -- just like you have done.
Here's an interesting short article I found on the subject:
http://www.traditional-building.com/article/moldtext.htm
The notes on the application of cyma recta and reversa moldings are of particular interest.
From the above article, here's an image showing varying "facial angle" (what we carpenters would call the spring angle). Note how the profile on the left, in particular, shares many similarities with the profile you have (in the inverted position, of course).
I still wish I knew what the little "drip edge" molding was called. Maybe it's just a rotated conge, but I'm sure there's a better term.
View Image
I meant to say that I put the Cyma Reversa at the bottom...I just edited the post to fix that.I am still learning these achitectural terms so I can impress the clients ;o)Thanks for the link.
I am still learning these achitectural terms so I can impress the clients ;o)
Yeah, use of the old latin terms seems to lend credibility to the designer. ;)
I was hoping Piffin would chime in on this thread -- he seems to do a lot of work with classical architecture where he's at and may have some relevant comments regarding this particular trim profile.
Edited 8/16/2007 7:04 pm ET by Ragnar17
Hey Paul, someone needs you here............[email protected]
It doesn't have to be at the top-top, but you get the idea from the pic. This is a built-up 9" crown with a piece of base on the ceiling.http://www.josephfusco.org
Joe,Your built up crown looks great!The total profile does seem to have more and larger flats in the horizontal plane though...looks good in any case.Thank you for taking the time to provide your insight.This is all very interesting to me.
If you like you can check out some more of that trim work.http://s144.photobucket.com/pbwidget.swf?pbwurl=http://w144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/jackflash1960/Finishing/1182125519.pbw&os=1&t=1182125520http://www.josephfusco.org
This work is more art then work!
Beautiful.
I was a-wondering how this thread popped up in my folder when I hadn't even been here yet!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks and I have a book that names all those details, but I am bushed from hot weather today and pulling my self together for a social engagement with the wife tonight. Too tired to walk over to the bookcase right now.But in principle i think this is right because one old architect I work with on some designs taught me that much of this old detailing was designed and planned for two things.
One was to catch and reflect light properly to enhance viewing pleasure.
So in the three details you showed, the left one would have been used higher up on a facade so a line perpendicular to that spring angle would be aimed at your eye as you looked up at it way on up there.
Thew one at the right with the sharper spring angle would have been used at a lower elevation - 8-12' up.
I had a problem once with a difficult 7" crown molding. It was just not looking "right" to me. I called the ID and talked to him about what I was seeing and he suggested just changing the angle of view a few degrees. By golly that slight difference changed a wallflower into the belle of the ball, IMO.The other purpose of a lot of those details was to facilitate water run-off and drip free detailing. That hem standing down is no different than the way we combine fascia and soffit today. In the classical, it was combined with a lot more foo-foo, but still had a practical purpose.
Of course when it is interior and the client likes it the way basswood did it, no harm done. And there has been more than one time I have had to be expressly detailed in telling my guys which way a crown needs to run. Sometimes, it just has to be mitred and not coped because you cannot cope every style. The one shown is really a modern equivalent of a five piece entablature and crown, I think.RE the water run-off thing - that same archy showed me how certain corbel styles proceed in their history and development from the horns of the altar in ancient times when blood sacrifice was practiced. The horns looked amazingly like some corbels with carved acanthus leaves, and was there to direct the blood to flow into the special basins or receptacles for it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the reply, Piffin.
I just read a (very) short article about classical trim yesterday (http://www.traditional-building.com/article/moldtext.htm) that addresses some of the same things you said about the angle of light, the best elevation of installation, etc.
That hem standing down is no different than the way we combine fascia and soffit today...
That's why I'm inclined to call it a "drip edge" -- due to its functional nature. Is it simply a fascia element in terminology, then?
The one shown is really a modern equivalent of a five piece entablature and crown...
I'd like to see a picture of that sometime -- maybe sometime tomorrow if you get a chance.
Thanks again for the reply.
Ragnar
Ring me again if I forget. I may be away from the computer for several days upcoming...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi Piffin,
"Ringing" you to ask if you could post a picture or drawing of what you were calling a "five piece entablature and crown".
Thanks.
Edited 8/26/2007 5:18 am ET by Ragnar17
Gonna make me work aren't you?I thought I was supposed to look for the name of that portion that hangs down like a fascia over a soffit.An entablature is a beam over columns that is adorned with detailing.
As I recal, the lowest portion is the architrave, then the frieze,then the cornice which is itself made up of individual elements such as the crowne, the face, and detail or other detailing such as bedding or beading. In copying this to make up an interior trim molding version, the architrave would be the wall itsaelf, the frieze would be emulated in the first leg of the detail up, then you have the other elements copied.I'll go back in this thread to try and pick up that piece again and sketch some lines on it if I can. Gimmee a minute.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
First though - here is an online version of what I have in my books. Paladio calls the portion with that vertical face and the drip edge a Coronna or a gocciolatoiohttp://www.classicist.org/handbook/16-Ionic-Entablature.html
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 8/26/2007 9:39 am ET by Piffin
And now this attachement to explain what I meant by modern five piece.at the instruction from one of the top IDs in the country, I have built this detail up on site in slightly larger scale than what has been under discussion here. I have labled it according to the words we used at the time and the way we used individual pieces to do it. That previous posting shows the classic names for the elements. building up on site in place has many advantages to using a fully shaped milling like this. You can make adjustments for walls and ceiling that are out of whack and hide those discrepancies easier.my memory is that we joined the soffit and fascia as one piece, nailed blocking to a chalk line on wall, and applied the combined set which was slightly - 1/4" or so - off the wall and cieling
Then we did the frieze piece and a bedmold rather that the beading seen here, and we had milled a detail to the bottom of the fieze, probably a bead. After all that, we placed the crown to the ceiling. We had prepainted all the pieces and then filled nail holes with spackle and gave it a final coat.A large 28'x28' greatroom with a few corners for fireplace and stairwell it was. Three days to mill, prep and paint the pieces, and two days to go in with the drop clothes and tools to install and paint. Three men.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks a lot for that link Piffin, there's a ton of great information there.
Thanks also for taking the time to explain some of the details to me -- I think it's a fascinating subject.
HOWEVER, I think you forgot to attach your picture to the last post! ;)
So it would appear.I think I got Prosperoed
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Ya nailed it good Pappy, nailed it good!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Bass,I hate to say it but I think it's upside down as well. Hey but don't feel to bad I've put them up upside as well. ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
According to classical convention, youse guys appear to be correct and I committed a molding orientation faux pas.However, I will quote an earlier post of mine:The most popular classical crown has the Cyma Recta at the top. The crown, as I installed it has the Ogee or Cyma Reversa at the bottom (from Architectural Review):Cyma Recta
Cyma recta has a concave curve over a convex curve. It is essentially a cavetto over an ovolo and was traditionally used in Classical architecture in the cornice and architrave.Cyma Reversa
Cyma reversa, also called an Ogee, is the opposite of cyma recta; it has a convex curve over a concave curve. Like Cyma Recta, it was used in Classical architecture in the cornice or architrave of a building.We did hold it up with the Cyma Recta at the top and the other details at the bottom (prior to the install)...all details were obscured in shadow. As installed, the lines at the top of profile seem to "pop."If I did get it upside down, so did the millwork shop in their profile book...and the owners like it this way. So, for this customer, it is "correct."I would note, that most crown profiles that have the large Cyma Recta detail at the top, start with a small cove (cavetto = "little cave") at the bottom--as do most bed moldings and they end with the convex curve (ovolo = "egg") at the top. I viewed this crown as like a bed molding supporting the top of the cornice.With a 45* crown you can probably do either orientation and still fall within the classical president. With 38/52 the thinking has been done for you.
"If I did get it upside down, so did the millwork shop in their profile book...and the owners like it this way. So, for this customer, it is "correct.""As long as you don't install casing as crown or baseboard for casing ( my own brother did that, just mitered the base when he came to the doors and went up and over, just like casing, then kept going with the base), if the customer likes it then I say it's good.I just remembered I recently saw crown molding installed for the cornice. The only problem was it was flat on the wall! Sure makes it easier, though...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,There is some funny stuff out there...the base running up around the doorways is a good one. I've seen crown installed flat too...goofy.Here are pics of some base I used as casing in an attempt to replicate a built up historic casing, and a pic of another time I installed crown upside down:
The customer is the only one that matters.
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."
--"The customer is the only one that matters."Definately.I fixed a bifold door that was all jacked up for them too--gratis. That may have scored as many points as all the other work. Funny how that stuff plays out.
Yeah, I know what you mean: I once built and installed an entertainment center for a couple and they were very pleased. But when I trimmed an inch off the bottom of their double swing door into the mudroom so they could put a rug there without the door dragging it, you'd think I was a super hero!
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."
Bass,Besides the Cyma Reversa going at the top, you can also check the "flats" of the moulding. They should always be installed so they are plumb.http://www.josephfusco.org
Joe,
What program do you use to mark the colored lines on the photos?
R-17,Corel Photo-Paint, but you could use "Paint" as well.http://www.josephfusco.org
As a double check on complicated crown that seems to ride the fence as to which end is up I look at the direction the projections of the profile point. Compare your crown with those in the black and white drawing and the way you installed the crown has the raised sections pointing towards the center of the room, rather than down. I think you are right in how it was installed.
Having said that arguments could be made for either direction. The person who picked out the profile is the only one who really can say which end they intended to be up.
It is a strange profile and it makes me wonder if it wasn't a custom profile from someone not quite up on classical designs.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
When I discussed it with the HO, I told them I did not think there was a right and wrong answer on orientation, with this molding--just personal preference.I'm glad you like the way it was installed...did you catch the vaulted ceiling photo in the other thread? Just in case, I'll stick it in here.As far as the profile goes, the millwork shop this crown came from offers 23 crown profiles...two of them are like the one in this thread.
nice job on the vault transition. That would be a head scratcher for me."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
You know I just did those four transitions a few days ago...and if I had to do it again next week...I'd be scratching my head all over again. I think I over-think it and confuse myself. <g>
It is nicely done. It is also upside down ;o) (sorry)Jeff
Compare your crown with those in the black and white drawing and the way you installed the crown has the raised sections pointing towards the center of the room, rather than down. I think you are right in how it was installed.
I hate to belabor this point, but the black and white drawings show the original designs which were refined some 2000 years ago. Given that the moldings we use today are essentially copies of those originals, I think it's a stretch to somehow imply that the ancient Romans and Greeks were "wrong" to orient the raised sections downward.
I'm not saying a person can't orient the trim in whatever fashion they like (it's their house, after all), but I just don't think you can imply the Greek and Roman designers were "wrong".
For what it's worth, here's a window head detail that I think that the molding Basswood used was attempting to emulate. The major difference is that the oak molding has a very abbreviated "soffit" behind the "drip edge" (ie "downward-facing raised section").
View Image
Edited 8/17/2007 5:57 pm ET by Ragnar17
"Basswood's" molding, vertically oriented, for comparison.
View Image
well what I think....as if you care...is that the steps/flats section should go up.1) to make ot cope-ableB) to frame the cieling as is done when building up before the crown.BUT!!!the Ogee/cyma rectum part should have the convex part down and the concave on top...so it is my considered opinion that the knives were ground wrong and bassmaster did the install correct.
.
.
Pants???I Don't need No Steenking Pants!!!
--"bassmaster did the install correct."Thanks T,I think you are right about the "copability"...it was tough enough as it was.CYcR (cover your cyma rectum...uhh...that's what pants are for) ;o)
I'm not saying a person can't orient the trim in whatever fashion they like (it's their house, after all), but I just don't think you can imply the Greek and Roman designers were "wrong".
You misunderstood my point. I'm implying that any profile is designed to be viewed from a certain direction. In the case of the profile in question, the steep spring angle makes it more suitable for low ceilings as others have said, so the projections of the profile should be the most pronounced in the direction of view. Even back in the greek day that was probably covered in "Crown 101" class.
While there is inherently nothing wrong with the greeks, however modern building breaks many of the old rules and who's to say that's wrong. If building were an exact science we'd never have evolving forms of architecture.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize you were talking about the spring angle. Since the profile Basswood used has a 45-degree spring, I'd agree that it probably looks best when not installed at lofty heights.
It is a strange profile and it makes me wonder if it wasn't a custom profile from someone not quite up on classical designs.
That's exactly what I think, too. I think the profile designer was trying to emulate a classic design but fell a little short in his/her efforts.
modern building breaks many of the old rules and who's to say that's wrong. If building were an exact science we'd never have evolving forms of architecture.
I'll agree that modern designers often "break the rules", but whether that's a matter of evolution or devolution is a matter of opinion. ;)
I'll agree that modern designers often "break the rules", but whether that's a matter of evolution or devolution is a matter of opinion.
Sometimes it seems the larger the budget the worse things get! :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"strange profile and it makes me wonder if it wasn't a custom profile from someone not quite up on classical designs."It is a compromise.
The traditional milling leaves much sharper creases on the outside edges and corners to give more contrast to the way it reflects light is different directions off the different planes.But modern mills have learned that by easing those edges, and using carbide blades, they can get miles more molding out of a set of knives. You can say that they "cut some corners" off. It takes much cleaner, sharper knives in the milling machinery to cut sharp corners on a piece.Another advantage to mills and retailers of this is that in shipping and delivery, there are fewer complaints about bruised corner edges - since they are all evenly "pre-bruised" by design.So this millwork outfit he bought the product from took a traditional five piece and unified it, downsized it, modified it, modernized it, and voila, printed their catalouge with it facing the wrong way!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So this millwork outfit he bought the product from took a traditional five piece and unified it, downsized it, modified it, modernized it, and voila, printed their catalouge with it facing the wrong way!
*chuckle*
Yep. Last I checked they didn't require any test of good taste before allowing the purchase of planer knives, even blank planer knives and knife grinders!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"the owners like it this way"That is what counts
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your work looks great. I always find it interesting that customers can appreciate work like yours, but don't splurge to get a skim coat on that textured ceiling.
I have the feeling that these customers could afford anything they want, even so, they spend below their means and the crown was splurge enough for them.Thanks for the compliment though (and I agree about smooth ceilings),BW
I spent and ungodly amount of time coping an 8" poplar crown on a job. after asking the builder at the beginning which way was up I came to find out later from the supplier that I had installed it upside down. came out fine but probably a lot harder to do than if I had flipped it. Very nice coping by the way. I kept a piece that I coped. It's in my storage unit - I'll photo and post it if I get the chance.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
Thanks.I have some leftover pieces of the crown this thread is about. I might goof around out in the shop tomorrow and see if I can cope that stuff in the other position...looks like trouble.BTW I did the coping pictured here with a grinder.
I might goof around out in the shop tomorrow and see if I can cope that stuff in the other position...looks like trouble.
It certainly doesn't look easy --- let us know how it turns out.
So are you as fast as ol' DougU with the grinder? I watch that video he posted every once in a while and it still amazes me how quickly he gets through the profile.
I've still yet to try it myself. We used some MDF crown on the last few jobs I've worked on, and that stuff copes so easily that it's difficult to justify using a different approach. Besides, there's enough of that nasty dust coming off the MDF from a small coping blade alone --- a grinder on MDF would produce enough dust to block the sun. ;)
I sent out your check today, I forgot again.
Do they come with the waist belt?
Matt
Why cope it? Mitering works so much better. After coping crown for 16 years I was shown the advantages of mitering and have been doing it successfully for the last 17 years.
It is upside down.