I’m getting ready to do crown molding in kitchen with a couple corners other than 90 degrees. Specifically one inside 135 degree and another one is an inside 45 degree! I use a compound miter saw…my crown material is of the 45 degree type…is there a formula for figuring my
miter and bevel settings for irregular corners?
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I think Joe Fusco had a chart at one time on his site but I can't find it now.
The other day I saw a chart on the DeWalt site click
and you'll find it down at the bottom of the page.
There is also now the Bosch Electronic Angle Finder for around $100. I hear
you stick it in the corner and it gives you read out to set all your bevels
and angles. Anybody out there using it yet?
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Thanks Jerrald! The chart at the Dewalt site is just what the doc ordered! Awesome...perfect. Thanks so much!
Man! What shape is the room?
Okay, those of you with mathematically sensitive minds, please look away.
the easy way is to go to your nearest library and there is bound to be several geometry texts, not to mention carpentry books that will have applicable charts. I have several, but seeing how I haven't built those new bookshelves, I can't put my hands on a title at this moment.
One of the basic equations I picked up is called a similarity equation, and it works for all sorts of things
A/B=X/C
for your particular application:
A=35.3 (the Known miter angle for a 90 degree inside)
B= 90 (the known inside angle)
X= what we are attempting to find out
C=135 (one of the angles you need a soloution for)
Setting it up:
35.3/90 = x/135
to solve for x you will need to multiply both sides by 135 which will give you:
135 (35.3/90 ) = x
52.95=x
so for a 45 degree type of crown the bevel should always be 30 degrees and the mitre should 52.95 degrees
I spoke too soon...and James, I beg to differ with you on your statement that 30 degrees is a constant. And Jerrald the afforementioned Dewalt chart only goes down to a 67 degree corner (obviously because one gets into miter settings beyond 45 degrees...
even though my saw Does miter on the right side up to 58 degrees, it only goes to 45 on the left!)
BKWOOD,
View Image
Thankyou very much! That certainly covers it!
You da man!
See I knew Joe had it somewhere.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
I wish I had seen that chart last week Jerry. Good One.
My only Question is: Why would you want to mitre an inside corner anyway. I would just scribe and cope.
Otherwise that joint will separate in a year. I think DeWALT is trying to sell more saws. Great saw, by the way anyway. Wish I still had mine.
I guess that answers my question about the US standard bevel cuts of 38 + 52.
I still have to figure out if a 38-52 is the same angle, pitched as the 6:12 I think a definition of the term bevel cut is in order.
I refer to the bevel as the angled cut that runs the length of the trim.
I thought that might have been what you were asking me the other day. I went searching the net to find out why "standard crown" is all 38º or 52º but to no avail. Maybe someone else here knows the history of that.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Gerrald, I am not a history buff but here is the explanation of the standard 38/52 that I come up with. A quick look up using you angle calculator, a slide rule or a four-figured tables (does anybody know how to use these things anymore?) will give you cosine 52 = .6157 which is well within the range of the golden proportion. Why cosine? I think most people would look at a crown in the perspective of how far it comes out from the wall and the dimension of the face. Another reason I can think of is the crown is not part of the ceiling and people don't want to feel oppressed (as one architect put it) when they get close to the crown. Why exactly 38/52? No idea.
Tom
The golden proportion or golden mean. Which is that magic relationship that has been passed down through the ages. It is aesthetically pleasing.
I think that a 6:12 roof is considered the quintessential roof pitch aestheticaly speaking. The roof pitch of choice in Art and design. You will see more snowcovered 6:12's on christmas cards than 3:12's
But is it because we associate it with history or, because it is aesthetically pleasing or both?
I think the 38' - 52' is a carryover from golden times. who knows?
Also I think it goes with the 6:12 best. i still haven't figured out the math I'm lazy.
Edited 7/23/2002 8:15:42 PM ET by Edgar76b
http://www.vashti.net/mceinc/golden.htm
http://phoenix.akasha.de/~aton/Golden%20Section.html
http://phoenix.akasha.de/~aton/GoldenRectangle.html
Edgar I've just got to ask ... have you ever read Godel,
Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. Hofstadter?
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
No I never have. Why? Am i re-inventing the wheel all over again? I have seen M.C.Escher's designs. Is that the same Escher?
We discussed the golden mean in freshman year in drawing 1.
I think the Golden mean also translates into music. An example might be the way a hook in pop song attracts you to the song. Or, the form of an early beatles song. Crazy ain't.
Like I've said before it's just a hunch . I am too lazy to do the math, research, or come up with a logical rationale. Also I am not much of a reader. I'm a dreamer.
It intrigues me. The way homes were built in the 17th and 18th century. It may have been the hieght of technology. In some ways . The houses were built according to the materials available. efficiently. Just like the houses today. The methods and techniques became institutions, based on the available materials. And the Appearence has been carried over to the present day.That's the point I am trying to make.
Although Homes are built efficiantly without the benifit of old growth timbers. They are built with the same goals in mind. using available materials , and easing the transitions with decoritive, pleasing finish carpentry.
The crown moulding on a $200,000 home, with a 38/52 crown and a 4:12 roof. Even though the roof is different, the crown May be added. Simpliy to remind the potential buyer of the coveted 16th century Stone farm house. Of which, there are very few, originals for sale. Which has stood the test of time.
I wonder if A design/build carpenter from the 1700's ( or earier ) would think that proportion looks strange. I wonder if he knew a different approach to the whole crown problem.
That is the point , I was trying to make on the other thread Jerry. Have you ever read "the houses of the massachusettes bay coloney." I don't know the author, and that title is close . It is very interesting good pics too. I bet there is info in there that alludes to this too.
Edited 7/24/2002 11:05:37 AM ET by Edgar76b
Edgar No I never have. Why? Am i re-inventing the
wheel all over again?--nah that's not it, it's just with your fascination
for mathematical relationships here and over in the framing
radiused stairs discussion as they relate to art and design has led me to
think you and that book ( Godel,
Escher, Bach) would make a great match. And statements like "I think
the Golden mean also translates into music" confirms that to me.
However when you say "I am too lazy to do the math,
research, or come up with a logical rationale. Also I am not much of a reader.
I'm a dreamer." Well then, maybe not. Godel, Escher, Bach was the
second most difficult book I've ever read but one of the most profound, exhilarating,
and exciting ones too. I remember back then my girlfriend at the time could
tell I was excited about the book but looking through it she decided it was
more than she was interested in dealing with but she would press me to talk
about it and explain it to her. One day frustrated she pressed me for a one
sentence explanation of what the book was about and meant to me and I replied
"All art is math".
"I wonder if A design/build carpenter from the 1700's
( or earier ) would think that proportion looks strange."--
One of the things that I think I have discovered over these years is that when
there is not underlying mathematical relationship or principal in art then it
looks strange and doesn't work for people. That's why great art and great design
is timeless. What is it about the Mona Lisa that makes it so great? There is
something in the composition, an underlying order or pattern, that controls
and directs how we look at it. Thereby directing what we look at. Thereby directing
how we are going to feel about it. It elicits a response. We may not be able
to put our finger on exactly why all all this happens although we can trace
it to the strength of the composition and what is composition other than an
underlying mathematical pattern.
"...I wonder if he knew a different approach to
the whole crown problem.
"That is the point , I was trying to make on
the other thread Jerry. Have you ever read "the houses of the massachusettes
bay coloney." I don't know the author, and that title is close . It
is very interesting good pics too. I bet there is info in there that alludes
to this too." Yup got it right here on my shelf and you were incredibly
close with the title or as close as anyone would need to be. The correct title
is The
Framed Houses of Massachusetts Bay, 1625-1725 by Abbott Lowell Cummings.
My copy must be an older edition since my cover looks different. Mines a sort
of orangy red color with a montage of six different illustrations. As for a
different approach I'm still not sure I understand what you getting at and while
it's been a while ( at least 15 years) since I read that book I don't recall
getting anything like a "different approach to the
whole crown problem" from that book at all. Crown doesn't even come
up in it at all.
The Houses of Massachusetts Bay as talked about in that book are really Colonial.
While we tend to use the term Colonial today to group together a much broader
based set periods and style house of the real Colonial period from 1600-1780
didn't have crown added as detailing. Crown as a detail really came later with
the Georgian, Federal, Greek Revival, and Neo Classical styles.
Just last night I read a quote or passage attributed to the satirist Ambrose
Bierce that I thought was hysterically funny but really sort of sums up American
architecture and styles.
That pretty well sums it up doesn't it? And that picture I posted as part of
What
was this guy thinking? shows just how bad it can get when we don't understand
the fundamentals and basics of good design (patterns and relationships). I drove
by that house again this morning and I thought I have to get some more photos
of this next week.
Whereas the book and web site WebSitesThatSuck.com
can say "Where you learn good Web design by looking at bad Web design"
maybe me need a discussion here "Where you learn good architectural design
by looking at bad architectural design"? Maybe that's easier than Godel,
Escher, Bach.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Not to get off the subject but as long as we've gone into books....Ever read "Living The Good Life" by Helen and Scott Nearing.......they died only a few years ago.....well into their 80's and building stone walls in their garden eight feet high...My inspirations on big projects..Its what gets me through....My personal phrase is....." I dream, I visualize, I plan and I build.....no stoppin me"
BE well
Namaste'
Andy
PS.....If anyone wants to join me up at Omega in Aug for five days with Ram Dass , Krishna Dass and friends I can guarentee you it'll rejuvinate your souls...It'll be my third year doing that workshop....WWW.EOMEGA.ORG
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 7/24/2002 3:43:01 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Sorry Andy but I haven't read "Living The Good Life" by Helen and
Scott Nearing although it may have been one of the books mentioned to me this
past weekend. This is all sort of ironic in that I was talking with my next
door neighbor regarding the stonewalls that our new neighbor up the the road
(Martha Stewart) was building and perhaps thinking of the book The
Framed Houses of Massachusetts Bay I had said "isn't there a book out
called the Stones Walls of Westchester". He then mentioned no he hadn't
heard of that but if I was interested in stone walls I should read blah blah
blah. He may have mentioned that one but I only remember the blah blah blah
right now. I'll ask him when I pass him on my way back out again.
Just now while searching for "Living The Good Life" on Amazon I did
a subject search for Stones-Walls-Westchester and I got Sermons
in Stone: The Stone Walls of New England and New York along with a couple
of other interesting ones. I guess that was probably the book I was thinking
about. The "Living The Good Life" book that you refered to was really
entitled The
Good Life: Helen and Scott Nearing's Sixty Years of Self-Sufficient Living.
Based on your recomendation and the other Amazon reviews I ordered the book
along with Sermons
in Stone and two other books on stone walls. That got expensive pretty quickly
huh?
Ya know Andy given all your new-age type spiritualism you might standout like
a sore thumb if you move to some of the other distant parts of the country.
Maybe you should just move accross the sound to Westchester or Fairfield? Plently
of great stuff here for you to work on.
Okay here's my afternoon book order:
View Image
Sermons
in Stone: The Stone Walls of New England and New York by Susan Allport,
David Howell (Illustrator)
View Image
In the Company of Stone: The Art of the Stone Wall by Dan Snow, Peter
Mauss (Photographer), Daniel Snow
View Image
The
Granite Kiss: Traditions and Techniques of Building New England Stone Walls
by Kevin Gardner, Guillermo Nunez (Illustrator), Susan Allport
View Image
The Good Life: Helen and Scott Nearing's Sixty Years of Self-Sufficient
Living
by Helen Nearing, Scott Nearing
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Jer
Read Living the good life by helen and scott nearing........just do it....They so are the best and most inspirational....c'mon bro...read it
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Hey it's coming. It's coming. I orderd with the Free Super Saver Shipping so it may take a few days but it'll get here.
I did just ask my neighbor if that was the book he mentioned and he said no it wasn't but today he couldn't remember what he had recommended to me over the weekend. Gee stuff like that never happens to me...( yeah right, I had trouble today remembering what 6 +7 adds up too)
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Man, this thread has definitley changed since the other day. I thought this was supposed to about cown moulding!?
By the way, how do you guys change the fonts/colors on this thing? I'm still trying to figure where the tools are on this thing.
Waitaminit....nope, maybe I need a bigger hammer.
scares me, and I'm fearless
James you obviously don't know how this site or the software here works. If
you want to learn all about crown molding you should be looking in the Framing
Radiused Stairs discussion ( post
#21462.17 and onwards). Geez!
re:"By the way, how do you guys change the fonts/colors
on this thing? I'm still trying to figure where the tools are on this thing."
I'm actually writing everything I post in Macromedia Dreamweaver (Ultradev).
You see I'm on a Macintosh and all those neat little tools that allow everyone
to write WYSIWYG within their browser aren't availible to me. To access those
tools you need to be running Microsoft Internet Explorer for Windows if I am
not mistaken. You have to ask around some more or maybe ask over in the Sandbox
Forum. I'm actully not complaining about be slighted and discriminated on
as a Mac user because writing HTML in Dreamweaver actualy gives me access to
even more tools and HTML code than are availible through the Prospero Forums
system.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Jerrald,
View Image
Joe I used to use GoLive way back when it was just a Macintosh application and before it was eve bought up by Adobe. One of the things I didn't like about Adobe buying it was that a lot of the things it did that were exclusive to the Mac platform they gave up on or stop development of. That sort of ticked me off. I made the switch to Dreamweaver Ultradev about nine months ago I guess and while it was tough getting up and running at first I am happier now with DW than I ever was with GL. (Although I think they are both great applications)
I needed to make the switch so I could really start working with Cold Fusion and the CF tools are a well integrated part of DW/UD. My brother just made the switch to the new MX version and he say that it's even better at handling CF and the complaints I had about DW (mostly screen management interface related where I thought GL was superior) he says have been taken care of with the new version. I preferred the interface, screen real-estate management, and site management tools of GL to DW and I think GL is much easier to learn and get proficient at than DW thanks to the interface but I think DW has a much much richer set of powerful tools than GL. I haven't had the time to even think about the MX upgrade myself yet but maybe in a week or two.
Just this past week I finally trashed my Golive application to eliminate clutter and free up disk space since I rarely used it anymore. I was sort of sad doing it but, what the hey, if I suffer withdrawal I can always reinstall from the CD. Another part of my switch to DW was that I preferred Fireworks to ImageReady by a long shot and I bought the whole kit and caboodle DW-UD_FW suite.
Joe, you sound like something of a software junkie like me. Three HTML editors??? Have you gotten in to Flash at all yet?
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Well, to be honest with you, I am still trying to figure out the whole website chat room thing. I have only been at it for about a month now, so I am not all that computer savvy. I have been trying tihs through trial and error (mostly error).
I was just looking for a couple of answers because the terse directions given to me I can't find. I have a Mac, and I am using microsoft explorer, but i am still trying to find where or how to use most of this stuff.
Besides, I am trying to approach this with a little humor, GEEZ!
scares me, and I'm fearless
James-" I have a Mac, and I am using microsoft explorer,
but i am still trying to find where or how to use most of this stuff. "
James, the good news is you have a Mac and Macs are the very best most trouble
free computers to have. The bad news is unfortunately thanks to the Mac thing
you are screwed with respect to this Prospero Forum system.
I'll talk to one of my brothers and my sister-in-laws who are all in involved
with web design and information technology to see if they can't help me find
a free or cheap HTML editor for you to use. Dreamweaver and GoLive are great
but they're expensive too and unless you are going to be working on website
development they aren't worth the expense.
There is probably something out there somewhere that I just haven't heard of.
Unfortunately I missed the MacWorld Expo at the Javits center in NYC this year
for the first time in a decade. I am sure I would have seen or heard of something
there. Do you know anything about HTML at all? Let me know where on the map
you are and I'll try and see what I can find that may work for you.
"I am trying to approach this with a little humor,
GEEZ!" Your doing just fine by me James. Keep it up.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Jerrald,
View Image
I like that part where they explain the Apprentice system and how it worked. In framed Houses of mass..... Your master was required to feed, clothe, house , and pay you. for 4 years and then he had to buy you 2 good suits of clothes, and you were on your own. Somthing like that . I don't own, the book, I signed it out about 20 times.
>>Sometimes i think i am smart , Other times I think I shoulda read more carefully.
>>And I believe that what is considered beautiful is personal and common at the same time.
Very humble indeed, Edgar. See my posting to Jerrald for math and beauty.
Tom
Hey Jerrald, I looked at the content page of The Eternal Golden Braid, it certainly is going to be one of those must read book for me.
About "good taste", I used to think that a design, to me, falls into a scale good/so so/bad or somewhere in between. Then as time goes on I am not that certain anymore. That's why I asked the question about esthetics and good taste. Now I tend to take a more moderate stand as Edgar did, although I still have a strong feeling about things that I like and dislike, I try not to impose my opinion on others who would think otherwise. Just to throw in something here. Beauty in deed can be expressed mathematically. Somebody has done analysis of the features of beauty pageant participants and came up with a mathematical model to define beauty. They put that in a computer which could then give a rating from a 3D scan. If a computer can beat a grand master in chess, I think it's just a matter of time that it can be a judge in beauty pageants.
The whole art & science of esthetics, and good taste will be arguable and
debatable till the end of time I am sure. It a fascinating topic that really
deserves it thread here and to be more than just a sub-set of a crown molding
technique discussion.
"I still have a strong feeling about things that I like and dislike, I
try not to impose my opinion on others who would think otherwise." While
not imposing you opinion on other with respect to what is good and bad art is
noble and respectful I really don't think it hurts at all to talk about the
reasons why you like or dislike a particular piece, technique, or style.
Being an artist myself ( really, I'm a painter and a sculptor) you want to (or
at least I want ti) hear that kind of criticism so that you can find out what
works and what doesn't at communicating your message. On a person to person
level talking about art "reveals our soul" and personalities to the
people we are talking too. I think there is a difference between "imposing
our opinion" and "revealing our reasoning" about art, design,
and aesthetics. Art apprecaition is certainly subjective but we can learn a
lot from what people think.
When I first was learning to use Photoshop and Painter on the computer I scanned
in a graphite drawing I did back in college and colorized it running a few filters
on it to give it a painterly look and computer airbrushed it here and there.
I had asked an old girlfriend of mine what she thought about it and what she
thought it was all about and she said it was about "freedom". "Freedom"
I thought? How does she get "Freedom" out of that? Ya gotta be kidding
me. How can you look at that piece and come up with the concept of "freedom".
At first I thought what was I doing wrong but since she was the only one who
said anything like that I began to realize that it wasn't me and my work that
wasn't working right it was her. Obviously you can see it still bothers me a
decade later. Here's the illustration below.
View Image
What story do you think it tells?. I am sure there are tons of right answers
to the question "what story does it tell" and I heard many over the
years but ya know what? Being the artist here who did the work I can tell you
that "Freedom" or "being free" is the "wrong"
answer.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
"Freedom" She said Freedom because you liberated her from her clothes to do the painting. She was the model right. LOL Just messin wit ya.
I think alot of people hit that wall of ambiguity.when the word "Art" is mentioned. I don't really claim to be an Artist. However, I think I am creative.
If you ever have taken Art History at the college level, You might be surprised that there is less subjectivity in Art than you might think. It depends on how much you are willing to invest in the discovery of the facts. I don't believe that it is a requirement of good Art to be vague. It is a condition of all communication.
I did a job for a customer (a miricle is what I call it ) he had a 2 x 6 ext wall with a 34" x 4 9/16" jamb prehung steel door. Someone else had hung it in an old 3-0 x 6-8 door rough opening.
He wanted a brand new larson storm doors.
He didn't like the Idea of the casing which was a piece of 1 x 5" on one side ,capped, with the J and siding proud of the surface of the casing. 1 x 2" on the other side. I'll skip to the chase.
I did some measuring, I told him if we packed it out and recapped it we would be able to center it, but It would still be a problem with the 1 x 5",unless we kept the door handle a 1/2" of center towards the center of the door. To make it functional on the inside. We all agreed and he decided that it was the lesser of two evils. I thought I was smart but when I was done. I realized that everybody coming in that door was going to see the off center handle, and say what a hack job. You can't get paid enough for a job like that.
He bought the 34" door cheap and it was all down hill after that.
My point, although I think there are a numberof other topics in there too, Is that it is all about how much information you have going in. I hope you don't think I was attacking you Jerry. Most of what know about architecture is from doing it, and questioning it. My interest is more about the desiscions individuals made. I don't believe the 38/52 was handed down by aliens to the pharohs and tucked away until the architects deceided to build walls vertically. I think it evolved. And I honestly thought you might know. No dark sarcasm here.
Edited 7/26/2002 12:08:23 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edgar-"If you ever have taken Art History at the
college level, You might be surprised that there is less subjectivity in Art
than you might think"-- Yup I think you very correct about that.
I've been sort of circling around the bush that what make good art or art good
can be defined.
"I hope you don't think I was attacking
you Jerry." Nah I didn't think that at all. But now ya got me thinking
"wha' did I miss something?" I'm pretty tough skinned so I wouldn't
worry about that.
I don't believe the 38/52 was handed down by aliens to
the pharohs and tucked away until the architects deceided to build walls
vertically. I think it evolved. And I honestly thought you might know."
I began to wonder that myself years ago and it been on my list of " imponderables"
since then but I haven't a clue on that one. To tell you the truth I was sort
of hoping Joe Fusco would have an answer on that one. He's great with the math
and trig around here.
(I was was just thinking about one of my other imponderables again this morning.
Why are school buses yellow? And why that particular yellow?)
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
So in conclusion, and in other words Jerry, If you absolutly cannot explain it . It must be Art.
If you absolutly MUST have an answer, rationalize with algebra, and Solve for X, LOL
Edited 7/26/2002 1:58:20 PM ET by Edgar76b
Maybe the old tales are true ? Two that I've heard were:
1) That's the angle you get when you split a "standard" board diagonally.
or
2) That originally crown was done with plaster and that's the steepest angle they could work the plaster without having it slump..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Now That MAkes Sense! When did they STart using plaster for moulding? France? Rococco?
Don't want to burst you bubble Edgar but Phill's "that's the steepest
angle they could work the plaster without having it slump" doesn't work
and his #1 hypothesis is probably a lot closer to the real truth.
I've done plaster crown molding by two methods: installing precast pieces and
forming in place. The slumping Phill refers to would have to do with water to
plaster ratio and it's pretty easily handled by just adding more plaster to
stiffen the mix. Also the math doesn't work either because if you do a cyma
recta curve (where the upper section is concave and the lower section convex)
the angle between the ceiling and a line drawn tangent to the concave portion
of the "S" will continue to decrease as you get closer to the ceiling.
If you draw a line perpendicular to that tangent ( Hey Joe Fusco, is there a
tern for that kind of line? Like I've said Joe's great for that stuff) it's
angle increases until it finally approaches 90º so plaster applied at that point
is subject to the same forces that it would experience if it was ornament on
the ceiling. Nah, not a good explanation at all for the 38/52
rule.
Also 38/52 rule applies to the angle of the back
of the crown molding and with precast plaster crown there is no angle on the
back of the piece to measure. The whole crown is usually made as close to about
3/8" thick through the whole piece to keep the weight down to a minimum.
"When did they STart using plaster for moulding?"
Take a look at A
Brief History of Plaster and Gypsum
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
So the 38/52 is a rule now OK!
So, as your link suggests, They used it in the pyramids. Interesting, But I don't recall crown moulding in Eygptian architecture. Plaster on the walls even on the ceiling , is different than the way crown Plaster is applied.
Crown is a very specific application, along with the medallions on the ceiling of Georgian Architecture. I think the Answer lies in another period , just a guess.
The more I think about it. I always kind of thought that the crown was an extension of the caps on pillars. which during egyptian times were actually constructed of actual trees, related to the palm.
Much like the greek and roman entablature, with cyma recta and cyma reversa. The profile is from there too. No doubt I will see if I can find a picture, and see if the angle is a carry over.
Maybe an Artist Attempted to make a statement about his House by adding the crown , suggesting solid, strength, and prestige. And it caught on.
I guess we all agree that crown was a decoration not structural.
The whole going up the dormer rake thing ( J Fusco ) is yet another variation of these themes.
J suggests that his math works without the porkchop. When matching the eave crown even on a steep pitch. I don't see this as a rule of a particular style of architecture. It is a means to an end. Carpentry, A way of dealing with a situation. Hypothetically. That could actually be considered an evolutionary leap in itself.
If i can determine from the ruins that all Ionic Architecture was proportionately, all the same. changing only in size , NOT ANGLE of the center line ( yes J what is the term?) It might suggest that they had no use for the formula. Hey i don't know?
Where as today you might want to design a house with a 4:12 roof and 10:12 dormers usingancient profiles. It is technology no doubt. Or both.
I don't recall any 10:12 in roman Arch. I've seen
Edited 7/27/2002 12:20:10 AM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 7/27/2002 12:24:44 AM ET by Edgar76b
One of the reasons I heard about the color of school buses is that at the time that they evolved, someone thought of painting them the brightest, cheapest color that they could find for safety reasons. At the time, finding a vehicle color other than black, blue or grey was kinda hard. So they mixed up a batch of orangeish, yellow paint and the color (pardon the pun) stuck.
Now to make a bus stand out, they have to put flashing lights on them.
P>S> thanx for the attaboy
scares me, and I'm fearless
Okay, that make sense. That also probably explains it being sort of a drab yellow rather than a brilliant bright yellow. Okay that sounds good. I'll sleep better tonight for sure.
James I am supposedly going off to visit and do some work for both of my brothers and their wives later this week so I'll ask them about HTML editors then. Until then ....
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Geezzzzzz.dont know about anyone else......but I'm starting to feel retarded...least I'm honest!It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Hey Andy! Nice page . Nice work. Hey how did you do the curved rafters on that Gambrel roof?
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/5/2002 7:02:41 PM ET by Edgar76b
By the way....I love really steep pitched roofs.....see my website below of the house I built my family......Must be an East coast thing.....or where ever theres snow (which may become extinct the way we are going)
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy there's plenty of snow in Switzerland and the roofs aren't very steep there at all. Hmmmnnn, I've got to wonder why myself.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Ed.....making curved gambrels is a painnnnnnn......rafters are straight...I added two by fours down the length and bent the plywood..That was the easy part. Making the curved trim was the biggest pain......looks good though. Little touches like that always add such warmth and appeal IMHO.......Thanks man
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edgar, I have done the math for you. 6:12 works out to an angle of 26, not the 38 as in crowns. That doesn't change anything, does it? That brings me to a question I'd always wanted to ask. Who is there to decide what's esthetic or not? Of course there are sort of guidelines like the golden proportions but I think most of these guidelines were retrofitted to beautiful things that had existed since the existence of mankind, am I right here? Can 'good taste' be acquired or learned? Otherwise what do they teach at architecture schools? Give me your thoughts.
Tom
Tom - Who is there to decide what's esthetic or not? God
"Of course there are sort of guidelines like the
golden proportions but I think most of these guidelines were retrofitted to
beautiful things that had existed since the existence of mankind, am I right
here?"- Nah not quite The golden proportions, fractals, Fibonacci
sets and other "rules" of art were discovered by observing what
happens and occurs in nature and they appear all through nature in different
forms. It's when we upset and vary from the natural order of things that art
and design starts to suck.
Can 'good taste' be acquired or learned? With
respect to the arts I absolutely and certainly think it can be taught but there
is always someone who will argue that. Sometimes it's just tough to teach a
particular individual though and you find it's easier to give up on them and
move on to someone who is more receptive.
Otherwise what do they teach at architecture schools? Houses like the one I
cited above sometimes make me wonder if the teach art and aesthetics in architecture
school. I guess I'll just have to resign myself that there are some rotten in
every bushel though.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Tom First thing. If you get this. I didn't go to Drafting school, although it was a consideration. I went to Art school. Part time, 8 years. Istudied music /photography/ and anything else i could worm my way into. I never graduated. worked all kinds of construction,during this time, which to me was like a full curiculum, in some ways. Don't look to me as an expert Not like these other guys.
Sometimes i think i am smart , Other times I think I shoulda read more carefully.
Those golden mean links are not my favorite web sites . Only what i found, when i ran a search on web ferret. Trying to give a litle background, on it.
And I believe that what is considered beautiful is personal and common at the same time.
I was trying to make a point , Regearding institutions in the feild of architechture. It is evolution. What worked as opposed to what didn't what survived , What was considered correct is also an evolutionary process, I hope. I think that the styles built , were popular, and were brought to this country from england. which had been honing the designs for centuries before. the Art came in when form enhanced function. For Art sake not functions I still don't Know why 38/52 instead of 64/26. unless it was milled and stocked . I don't believe it. Not in this country in the 1600's.
I would guess it has to do with beauty, when not math.
Edited 7/25/2002 1:01:09 AM ET by Edgar76b
BKWOOD,
TOMCLARK,
View Image
Joe
What can I say...Youre an intense person. Very cool bro!
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Do you always use the formula you mentioned to cut crowns? I didn't know that mitre angles are directly proportional to inside angles. What about outside angles? I remember a long time ago there was an article in FHB from a mathematician showing a formula for mitre and bevel angles of any corner angle and rake angle. It was basically for academic purposes. For me I would prefer to stand the crown up and cut the mitre. Adjustment is a lot easier too if the corner angle is not exactly 90, inside 135 or inside 45.
Tom
Sorry, I was trying to find this dicussion last night, but it wasn't up.
I almost always use math at first, not necessarily this particular equation, in order to help me think about what it is I am doing. You almost always have to tweek your actual cut, but the math helps me to limit the amount of mistakes (and the amount of wasted wood ) that I make.
scares me, and I'm fearless
Does this happen to you a lot? Sometimes I found that even updated threads disappear without a trace and I have to go to advanced search and even then sometimes I just couldn't find them. I am still learning to find my way around this site.
Tom
Actually , it just happened again, Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, maybe I need to see an optometrist, or is it a psyc/therapist?scares me, and I'm fearless
Which compound miter saw you gonna use? Why spend all that time calculating angles when der ain't no staight walls or ceilins best compound saw now is Makita Ls1210 manuals for this saw and most others, in addition to books on carpentry will provide tables if you choose to use them.
you probably already did it but.... I would, wait that won't work. Being the genius that you are, I'm sure you already figured it out.