Ok Folks,
I hate to bring up this topic again, as there are volumes on it in the archives (I know…I’ve been reading them. However, I have a couple of questions that I don’t think have been fully addressed here. Neither of these questions really have a right or wrong answer, rather, I am just looking for some good discussion and opinions.
First, I have some experience hanging crown molding. I have installed it in about 3-4 rooms in an old house that was far from being square. However, I am far from being any kind of expert.
This round of install will include 4 inch hard maple custom molding that will be coated with nothing but poly. So far, I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to flaten the walls with joint compound in areas where the molding will contact the walls in an effort to minimize the gaps that will be seen when looking up at the molding. This has been done by placing an 8 foot long straight edge against the wall and noting the low points followed by filling with joint compound.
This has worked fine except for one wall. This wall in particular has a slight bow to it with the high point being mid-way on the wall. When the straight edge is placed up in the molding’s position, it rocks back and forth by about 3/4 of an inch at the ends of the straight edge. What to do here….One thought is to cut the 12′ molding length in half and hope to get a tight miter in the middle (I hate the thought of staring at a joint in the middle of this wall).
Another though is to somehow scribe and remove part of the molding where it contacts the high point in combination with mudding the far ends of the wall to build them up as much as possible. The molding is too ridgid and the bow in the wall is too dramatic to try and simply flex the molding to the wall. Anyone have any advice or ideas here. If you suggest scribing and removing some of the molding, please give some details here. I have never done that.
Next Question. To mitre or cope the inside angles. In the past, I have always coped the inside angles. The typical, upside down mitre at 45 technique. Seems to have worked fine in the past. However, all my past molding installs included soft pine, 2-3 inch wide that was calked and painted. Can’t do the calk and paint technique this time.
Some of the drawbacks I have read on mitered joints is that they tend to open up during dry times of they year, you have to purchase an angle gage, you need to be very precise in getting the angles right and also seems harder to start a room as compared to coping where your first piece of molding just goes straight onto the wall with no angled cuts. Some of the drawbacks to coping that I can possibly see with hard maple is difficulty cutting hard maple accurately with a coping saw and it maybe harder to get a completely tight joint with coping 4 inch molding. Again, any advice here would be great.
Replies
Straighten the wall out. Plaster it to fill out the bigger voids. Don't jigger with the moulding because it will be an eyesore that you will always regret whenever you see it. 3/4" over 12' is a bit of plastering but very do-able.
Upon occasion I will do inside miters, it depends on the crown and how straight the wall is. I always like to miter inside on cabinet installs. It sounds like the walls aren't that straight here, so I would lean towards the cope. If you do decide to miter then yes, you should have an accurate angle guage, I use the Starrett which is fine, but the way I practiced this for years was to take a reading with a bevel set and then bisect the angle with a compass on a scrap of wood, and there's your miter cut.
As far as coping, there are jigs out there which you can buy for your jigsaw which make it more bearable to do hardwood cuts all day. I own the Easycope which is inexpensive and not as good as the more expensive coping mechanisms but it does the job. You can always make your own. Once you've hand coped maple crown all day long your arm and hand are about ready to fall off. Reminds me of when we would milk cows by hand and at the end of chores you felt like you had forarms like Popeye.
Good luck.
I don't envy your situation. You didn't mention the ceiling condition. If the walls are that bad, the ceiling may be just as bad or worse. I'd be hesitant to use a finished wood crown unless the conditions were optimum. You can get away with some caulking if you can blend white phenoseal with a tan and apply it with a putty knife. Or caulk it with white and paint it later to match the maple. Phenoseal is alittle thicker than regular latex caulk and doesn't shrink as much. I've gone this route and the results can be quite acceptable. You probably won't be able to scribe much off the crown without it becoming obvious. In your situation I would insall the crown and shim were needed to keep it in position, then plaster and compound to fill in and feather out the low areas. Best of luck.
Edited 5/26/2006 8:06 pm ET by bruce22
vtjayman
You've read a lot of the archives so I'm not going to repeat any of it.
It doent matter to me wheather you cope or miter, personally I cope.
Why is it that you think you need to buy some fancy angle finder tool to figure out the angles of the walls? Take two pieces of scrap crown, start out cutting 45's and then go back and adjust accordingly. People think they have to buy a special tool to do the most simple of tasks, unless you can justify the cost of that tool to do a magnitude of other jobs you'd be throwing your money away, might as well send it to me so one of us can get some use out of it.
If your walls are out that much I might install the crown first and do my float work afterwards, IMO that seams to make more sence, maybe others have a more compelling reason to do it the other way.
....One thought is to cut the 12' molding length in half and hope to get a tight miter in the middle
Dont do this; you'll just tellagraph that joint. It will look like a flatened out V.
If you decide to cope, and I think you should, get yourself a coping saw, a nice file or some sandpaper wraped around a piece of wood and keep playing with it until you get a good fit, simple as that.
You dont say if this is for your self or for hire, if for yourself then just work at it until you get perfet fits, time shouldnt matter!
Doug
Mark that lump in the wall, in my experience it's a 4" drain or vent pipe plastered over without the lath. Be sure not to shoot nails around that lump.
May not be a pipe though might just be crappy work.
I only golf on days that end with a "Y".
Use some nice, fine tooth coping saw blades. I think the ones I use are 18 tpi. They go slower, but are easier to control. They'll get very hot in hardwood, so don't touch 'em.
One frustration you may find is tooth direction. Now, I like the teeth facing forward because that's how most of my handsaws point. Also, cutting on the push stroke splinters the back of the molding, not the front. However, most new coping saw frames are designed to cut on the pull stroke. IMO, that's so they can be made more cheaply - Cutting on the pull tensions the frame, cutting on the push compresses it. Compress a coping saw frame and the blade pops out. I own an old Trojan that's made of flat stock, and it's plenty rigid for cutting on the push. I don't know of any new saws like that, and you'll get my Trojan when you pry my cold, dead fingers from around it.
One thing I find helpful is to plan my copes by considering where they'll be view from. If you'll look parallel to a piece of crown most of the time, cope that one. You don't want to look perpendicular to the cope, because if it opens at all, it'll look like the entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel. I try to place my closing cope - the last one in a room, in the least visible spot. That's always the one that's hardest to get right.
Hope that's helpful.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I don't have anything to add regarding the wall situation, except is it doable for you to build up your crown by installing a board with a routed edge to the wall first, then the crown? Makes a larger look, but gives some more opportunities to fugde some of the waviness. I personally cringe at the though of 3/4 of mud added to the tops of the wall. You may as well screed the entire height of the wall for it to come out acceptable.
I will add the use of a dremel type sander greatly helps me with tight fitting copes, especially on harder woods. I still cope fairly close to the line with a deep back-cut, but tidy it up nicely with the 1/2 in or so sanding drum. Coarser grit works better for me. I still find a need for a couple hand files now and again, but my efficiency rate is excellent.Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
Others have given good suggestions on the hump in the wall so I'll just chime in on the coping. Trial and error works usually works, eventually. Or you can save yourself a ton of grief (and a sore wrist from making multiple trial copes) by actually measuring the angle of the wall (just use a bevel gage and a good protractor, you don't need anything fancier than that), and calculating the miter angle and bevel settings for your saw. Few corners are 90 degrees and it does make a difference. You need to know the spring angle of the moulding though. Here's a link to a crown molding calculator that someone posted here a couple of months ago. http://www.josephfusco.org/Articles/Crown_Moulding/crownscript.html
You'll still have to cut the cope of course, and maybe file/sand a bit to tune the fit, but it's much more satisfying to do it just once and get it right.
Also, it's worth the effort to install blocking first, especially with clear finish. Then no hunting around for solid nailing. Good luck.
put the crown up then float it in, less work - better results
If there are large gaps make some spacers that fit snug enough to stay in place under the crown and extend an inch below the crown. then fill the void using the spacers to gauge how thick to lay the mud in. you can pull the spacers out before the second coat
Hey everyone-
Thanks for all the input on the crown molding install. I'm looking to begin the actual intallation next weekend. I've done and the prep and stalling that I can do. Now for the moment of truth. Someone asked if this job is for hire. Nope. It's in my own dining room so I can take as much time that is needed! If it comes out ok, I'll post some pics. Thanks again for all the input.
Jay
"If it comes out ok, I'll post some pics."
Wuss!!! <G>
(Post anyway. Somebody might be able to help modify the design, or decide they like the look or whatever.)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
to straighten out the wall, depending whats on the other side, you could cut out the top 2 1/2 inches ,or so, of wall board, slice the nails holding up the top plate, bang it back straight, refasten with long screws, patch drywall (doesn't need to be perfect because its getting covered) and bingo a straight wall. should be able to do that in an hour or so. faster and easier than gobs and gobs of fill. and it straightens out the other side as well.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
HA! You asked for it! I'll post pics no matter how #### it comes out! Also, thanks for the imput of cutting out the top section of the wall, unfortunatley, it's plaster and I have already put on too many layers of goo at this point to turn back! I've got it all stained and the first coat of poly applied. Finished pics on the horizon! Thanks agian for all the input, you all have been great.