Hi All, been forever since I’ve posted. Good to see some familiar names still on the board.
Anyway, I’m back b/c I’m vexed with a crown issue which I’m sure ya’ll have faced many times and I’m hoping you can’t point me toward solving. Crown on 45 degree cabinet.
I’ve got a good sized (4.5″ roughly) two part cove crown and have already set the base component (3/4 X 1 1/2 with tongue) with no trouble. Can’t for the life of me figger how to cut the angle for the cove piece tho. I thought I’d just transfer the angles I used to cut the base pieces… but doesn’t seem to be the case. Couple points:
No ceiling to contend with, open above. My chop saw bevels one direction, fwiw. The cove piece has a groove on the vertical edge that marrys to a tongue on the piece I already installed. It should be pretty straight forward… but I’m flumoxed.
And I can’t for the life of me find any place on line with info on how to do it. I searched and found a poster here referring to an old ask this old house episode (which is probably the only episode I’ve ever seen of that show! So I know the bit he’s referring to. Can’t find it anywhere). Anyway, blah blah blah… any ideas?
Thanks as always. Here’s to surviving this brutal economy.
Brian
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Edited 6/17/2009 6:00 pm ET by homebaseboston
Replies
What's the spring angle?
Yeah, I thought that I might have to factor that in... just don't know how. It looks like if I measured it right it's a 45* spring._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Let me see if I have the situation grasped. You have a horizontal member attached to the tops of your wall cabs. This piece has a tongue that goes into a groove in the vertical face (towards the bottom)of the crown/cove.
Why not cut the crown using the old "upside down and backwards" mantra, standing it up in the saw to cut it? Don't worry about bevels, the swing on the miter will take care of it. So all you have to deal with, typically, is 45* or 22 1/2* cuts.
The last crown job I did was prefinished maple, with a 45* spring. Difficult and slippery, too. Made it hard to get accurate cuts. SO... I built a jig for my saw out of plywood, with a stop for the top of the crown, and blocks to index the jig on my fence. Took a difficult operation and made it simple.
I don't cut crown on the flat unless it just won't fit into my saw the old-fashioned way. A lot harder if you have to tweak it for an odd corner, IMO.
Sometimes with those built-up crown details, I'll pre-assemble the pieces and then cut them as a unit. Depends on the overall profile, though.
Hey Tom,thanks. Yeah, I'm pretty good with up/back cutting for outside corners, and when it comes to the inside 90* corners I'll cope...but we have a 45* corner cabinet in this run which is causing the dilemma. Obtuse angles have me bollixed. Seems to tweak it in a way I'm not grasping. Have crown holders on the chop saw, which are great._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
You're troubled with the inside corner? Just miter it when it's a weird angle, not worth the trouble trying to cope it. Sometimes I do just to make myself mad but it looks fine to miter a 45° (or 135°) inside corner.
Agreed, Mike. I only cope 90* inside corners for the most part, and usually only on stain grade work... depends on the situation/client etc. I am in fact trying to cut a miter for this weird one, but can't figger how to set the angle/saw/crown..._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Have you checked that the flat areas on the back of the crown, the ones that actually touch the cabinet and the ceiling (if there was one), are square to each other? They often are undercut to allow some rolling of the crown to make installation easier, but it can make it difficult to hold the crown properly in your miterbox.
Any chance you could post a picture of the crown, your jig, and the spot you're working on? I'm still having trouble understanding what's going wrong here....
hb,When you say 45° you most likely mean a 135° corner. A 45° corner is going to require a 22.5° miter where as a 135° corner will require a 67.5°. In both cases you'd need the complement of each angle to cut them with a miter saw.The simple truth is you are most likely not positioning the crown correctly in the saw. Try cutting the cove flat on the miter using once you've determined the correct spring.You can find out how to find the spring angle and how to calculate the bevel and miter setting on this page: http://www.josephfusco.org/Articles/Crown_Moulding/crownscript2.htmlhttp://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I'm not sure I'm grasping your problem either. Is this an inside or an outside miter?
What I usually do on high-end kitchen cabinets with big crowns is a combination of measuring and trial. I use an angle gauge first, which gets me close to the angle. I use an aluminum gauge, but you can pick up a cheap plastic one at the big box store which will work just as well. Even though the cabinets are supposed to be a certain angle on the drawing, the real world isn't a drawing.
Now that I have a close approximation with the gauge, I'll use any old piece of scrap wood to trial fit some angles. Sometimes the cabinets are oriented at a certain angle along the top edge, but they are not plumb, which throws off the fit of a big crown. I'll use the scrap wood to fine tune the angle until I'm happy with it, then I'll cut the real thing.
Once in a great while I just can't get it as perfect as I'd like, and I'll pin-nail and/or glue the two pieces of crown together FIRST, and then nail them as a unit to the cabinets. Any gap appears between the cabinet and the crown, rather than in the crown joint.
As far as cutting, you'll have to flip the crown for your single miter saw. Watch that you have the crown sitting flush on the fence and table when you cut.
Any of that help?
Oh, and one more issue I've run across...Sometimes the crown delivered from these cabinet places is not of the same batch or run, and I have found once in a while that the profile is slightly different between two pieces. That can give you fits. I always try to cut corners from the same piece if I can.
Yeah, it's harder to explain than I thought. Enduring, I'm with you and thanks. I think an earlier poster described it well... it's probably a 138* +/- angle. It's an upper corner cabinet. It's at 45* (+/-) from the adjacent cabinets. Picture the top view on a batting cage... it's the middle piece. I'll snap a couple of photos tomorrow and throw them up here. I appreciate everyone's input. I know I"m going to kick myself when someone finally explains that one little detail I'm missing! --Brian_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
The two runs of cabs are not exactly 90, so your oblique angles aren't exactly 135.
Cut two pcs. of scrap 22.5, hold 'em up there, and you'll immediately see whether you have to make 'em + or - than 22.5.
Keep adjustin' until you get a good fit. You'll have to do this separately for each angle - they won't be the same._________________________________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_h1vk23kik
The first time I came across this type of crown I had the same problems as you. It's been about 12 to 15 years since I did a kitchen with the two piece crown. I do not remember what I did exactly, one thing I do know the crown is not cut the same as 38/52 or even 45/45 regular crown. I do not think I cut upside and backwards.I say that because that is what I probably did to begin with. I do recall after sitting down on a trestle and thinking about it, I realized what needed to be done .After that the crown went easier than regular crown. Try cutting in the same position as the crown when installed. Rightside up ,the saw table is the top of cabinet,the fence is the crown base,I think that's it!
mike
Ooooooo... Mike that is interesting. I'm going to brain that one out a bit. Maybe the math is diff. b/c it's a two piece. I'll take a pic._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Does it look like this cabinet?
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Bingo!_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Okay here are a few pics... might help. I got the tongue piece set no prob. For some reason if I set my saw at same angle to cut the cove... it doesn't translate. Am guessing I have to set the bevel angle on the saw as well as the miter angle... but can't say for sure._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
There is your problem, you only angle cut one side, so the miter isn't being bisected. You need to have it split 50/50 no matter what the total angle is.
You know... I thought I did. Take a look at the "Template" photo and see if that looks like it's split. I didn't do it mathematically, but took the two pieces of thin scrap and overlapped them at the angle of the cabinet face. Then marked the front/back of where the pieces met. Drew a line. Thought that would bisect the angle...._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Seee that long point of the short hunk out beyond the other hunk? No dice. That isn't an equal angle ( assuming the widths are equal) If they were BOTH the same angle, the cuts would meet front and back as equals. From that pic, youd have to swing the saw about 7 degrees or so to the Left to shorten that mismatch.
Aha!! That is great to know about the corners being the tip off.Okay... so lemme ask this. I'm guessing that b/c the tongue pieces follow the face of the cabinet I can leave them in place... does that sound right? Worst case I can chisel a bit of the tongue out at the inside corners.So my technique for finding the angle was... flawed. For the cove piece is there an easy method for figgering the bisecting angle that doesn't involve an angle finder?Then, assuming I have the angle right, are we right back to the upside down/backward method for cutting the crown? (Or do you still have to factor in a bevel)_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
I don't use an "angle finder" Just a T-Bevel. I set it at the inside of the cabs where they meet and lock it in. Then transfer that to a scrap or cardboard, and use a speed sq. to read the angle. Then divide by 2 to set the saw to that number.Yes, you will cut upside down and backwards.Ignore your previous angles on the flat hunk installed, it won't work. Yes, you may have to dink with the groove or tongue now that you have it flubbed.
I would do that by first joining the t&g base to the crown, then making my miters.
Our preference for a corner is to pooch it out at top and front.
Like this.
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With frameless cabs, you can either build the cornice set the hard way, with the little returns, as shown above, or simplify it by placing a booster piece filler across the front, as shown here.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Great pics Gene. The tongue piece is installed already (and hopefully doesn't have to be taken out) and has been... pooched (great word) to allow for a nice reveal once the cove is installed._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Sure , confuse him even more.
Hah! Actually I misread his note Zh but it made sense. I'm a dummy but not a TOTAL rookie :). I was actually going to attach the two together in advance, but I could not for the life of me figger a way to clamp them b/c of the odd angle at which the pieces met (and for 8' runs I just didn't have enough clamps to do it justice). Also, the pieces, as mentioned earlier by another poster, needed to be tweaked too (a little material taken out of the groove) to make the bottom edges flush. The cabinets... as you might guess... are f-ing junk. Shrock. Very unimpressed._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
"The cabinets... as you might guess... are f-ing junk. Shrock. Very unimpressed."
This isn't a good thread to start blaming the materials. Vic
LOL. I would blame neither the tools nor the material for my poor workmanship! That doesn't change the fact that it is... by any objective measure...junk :) You get what you pay for... these were a pretty low/middle end cabinet. But point taken._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
You bisected the angle incorrectly. If both cleats are the same width ,then the miter should be equal lengths.
I use a bevel square and bisect that angle with a inexpensive angle finder. I do not read the degrees, I line up the angle finder with the edge of the saw insert. In any case you need to bisect the angle correctly first. Then looking at your crown profile,cut a couple of pieces of blocking for the spring angle and screw it to each side of the fence.Make sure the blocking is too thick so the crown rests on the blocking and not the fence.Now you can cut the crown the way it looks when installed.Right side up and NOT backward.
I am almost positive this is how I cut the kitchen crown years ago. Like you, this one stumped me for a few minutes. Before doing this kitchen I have installed crown so many times that I thought I had every type down pat. After cutting the usual way upside down and backwards and the miters looked like a rookie cut them, I said a couple of WTF's,sat back and then figured it out.
Take your time, bisect the angle , you'll do fine
mike
You sure its a true 45? When I hang crown I always check the angle with a speed square. If there's any question I test fit with scrap first.
I cut my crown upsidedown and I use crown stops on the saw. This insures the crown is held at the same angle for every cut.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Most carpenters have a very good “angle finder” in their toolbox: a framing square.
Hold one leg tight to one cabinet, with the outside corner lined up with, let’s say, the 4” mark on the square. Now trace the other leg onto the ceiling.
Flip the square, and repeat on the other side of the miter. Draw a line from the outside corner of the cabinets to the point where the two lines intersect on the ceiling.
That’s your miter line. Set your bevel gauge to it, and transfer the angle to the saw. If your cabinets aren’t tight to the ceiling, set a piece of scrap ply up there to draw your lines on.
For inside corners, first make a mark, say, 4” out from the corner on both sides. Set the corner of your square at these points, and trace your lines -- it’s the same principle both ways.
I’ve got a cool angle divider made by General that does all of this in one step, but it’s good to know the old tricks.
AitchKay