Getting ready to do some 9″ crown which will be painted. Which is easier or preferred .. to run butt joints of one piece into the corner and cope the meeting piece or just inside miter both ? Ive been warned by someone else who used this wide poplar crown that it wants to “move” on ya and wondered if trying to get a decent miter is harder than coping the adjoining pc. Pricey stuff to be expiermenting with.
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Replies
Is the profile you're using a "true" crown? The reason I ask is that some profiles don't lend themselves to coping as well as others. (If you do, in fact, have a true crown, you'll be able to cope it just fine.)
I'm a strong advocate of coped joints. If you have any experience with this type of joint, you'll know that a coped piece can be fitted *much* tighter than a mitered one. Even with paint-grade work, I cope nine times out of ten; it's just a faster way for me to get good results.
When you get your stock on site, try a cope on one of the pieces that will need to be cut down to length anyway. You'll soon know whether coping will be a viable approach, or if you'll be forced to use a miter.
I hung smaller crown than that (about 6 inch) and had success with what i'm calling a "psuedo cope".
I start with a mitered corner but then I clean out the back half where no one willl see. As long as the walls are relatively square it works good. It gives you room to adjust the joint but it saves the time of having to clean out a detailed pattern like a normal cope.
That's just another way to cope MSA1. That's how I learned it years ago - lol.
I recently heard of a "trick" I plan to try soon. Cut a piece of your crown about 10"-12" long and glue some 80 or 100 grit sandpaper to its face. The guy who told me about it said to use a good spray adhesive and make sure the sandpaper is firmly bonded to the crown.
You rough cut the cope then use the sanding block to dial it in. He claims that he can do a near-perfect cope joint in under a minute.
I recently heard of a "trick" I plan to try soon. Cut a piece of your crown about 10"-12" long and glue some 80 or 100 grit sandpaper to its face. The guy who told me about it said to use a good spray adhesive and make sure the sandpaper is firmly bonded to the crown.
Just based on a mental image, I don't have a lot of confidence in it. I can see a few issues: It would be hard to get the sandpaper to conform to the details in the crown, the sandpaper changes the size of the profile and it will be hard to hold the crown while you sand the edge.
But other than that, it might work. Let us know.
I still cope with a coping saw and for the few minutes (at most) that it takes per cope, it seems easy and neat enough that I'm not really looking for "better" methods (although, the grinder method sounds intriguing). But then, I usually only do 1 or 2 rooms at a time and infrequently at that.
-Don
My crown and molding work is also infrequent so I'm sure my technique could stand some improvement. I cut a miter then use a coping saw following the "line" on the front of the molding. I cut it with a back bevel then "tune" the cut with rasps, utility knives, etc. I keep a piece of scrap handy to check the fit while I "tune" it, but I do a lot of try and fit before I get it right.
The sanding block idea seems like a quicker way to go. I'm not sure if I would use it on stain grade molding, but everything I've done for the past few years has been paint grade - lol.
I recently heard of a "trick" I plan to try soon. Cut a piece of your crown about 10"-12" long and glue some 80 or 100 grit sandpaper to its face. The guy who told me about it said to use a good spray adhesive and make sure the sandpaper is firmly bonded to the crown.
You rough cut the cope then use the sanding block to dial it in. He claims that he can do a near-perfect cope joint in under a minute.
Dave,
I have doubts about this method, too. However, I won't completely knock it since I've never tried it. I'd be primarily concerned about splintering out the cope while trying to sand it with the "shaper piece."
Not that I'm all that fast, but I think I typically cut a cope in about 2 or 3 minutes from start to finish anyway. By concentrating on smooth, even work with the coping saw, I've gotten to the point where I rarely have to sand or modify the initial cope.
If it's copeable, that's the way to go. Inside miters, in my experience, are just open joints waiting to happen.
I've discovered that most any crown is copeable. Even those with undercut profiles can mostly be coped. Just miter the portion with the undercut, and cope the rest. Whap, done.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Interesting. I haven't used any undercut crown in a long time, but the next time I see some, I'll give it a shot.
Thinking about that last night brought some questions to mind. I don't see how you could get your first piece in, square-cut, and get the second piece to match. Nor can I understand how you miter only the undercut section of the first piece. The only way I see it working is if you miter the first piece and then cope the second to it. And if you do that, I don't see the point in coping at all.
This is assuming a one-piece crown.
What am I missing?
It's hard to describe. I've got a piece of what I call interference crown on my wood rack. Next time I'm in the shop, I'll do a cope and take a pic.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Hey there TREETALKER
I, like most carpentars that have replied will choose to cope.My guess is that if you are attempting 9" crown no matter the profile then your probably quite capable of using a coping saw. Go to it and cope.Like mentioned inside miters are just sitting there waiting to "open up and say awhhh' lol. GOOD LUCK.
In my experience the main thing is to make sure the crown actually runs on crown. This can be difficult if you have dips in the ceiling or bows in the walls as it will make the crown want to twist. I always leave about three feet from the end un-nailed to allow for adjustments.
Another thing I do is walk into the room and visualize which corners will be seen the most. For example a foyer will have your eyes looking forward as you walk in and not looking above the front door. I cope over the front door.
I have always wondered how you get the last piece of crown in if all of the corners are mitered?
Just what I wondered also. Plus messing around making some self returns in other parts of the house every piece is just a wee bit diffrent in profile.A heck of alot of wood gets hogged out in 9"wide crown and its a tortured piece with thicker edges and coved center. Just leaving a piece on the miter saw in the sun changes its profile.
In a 23' wall starting as the first piece wouldnt you butt cut each end so you could work on a nice splice joint. The end walls are 13' so they can be one piece and the other wall is broken by cabinet soffits that have to be returned.
By the way I guess its technically cove as its all "innie" except for the ogee on the top and bottom edges
Thanks for everyones suggestions.
I have always wondered how you get the last piece of crown in if all of the corners are mitered?
"spring" it in.
cut it to fit tight .... set one corner ... hold/bend the middle out ... and push in the other end. Then let go ... if it's cut right .... friction fit ... pops right where it's supposed to be.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That takes a lot into consideration. What if your last piece is only three feet long? Not much spring left in that piece. On a 9" piece of crown (mitered) you are bowing about 4 1/2" to get it to fit in both corners?
What if your last piece is only three feet long?
Set one end where it goes with the oposite end held out away from the corner.
Then just force your other end into place!
Doug
DANG! You must be strong! I'll stick with coping...:-)
plan ahead and dont stop on the short peice if you are mitering corners, mind over matter.
I'll stick with coping unless I run into this stuff again. ;-)
wow, thats pretty intricate stuff, good job!!
What, you couldnt cope that stuff!
I'ts pretty cool but I cant see why they used something that nice on a textured ceiling.
Does look like you got a good tight joint, what is the stuff?
Doug
Fellini is doing his bedroom again?!
Yep every pc of this 9" cove seems to milled just a lil bit diffrent. When u hog out that much wood seems like the wood has the last laff. I figure a caulking tube filleted in quarters will do the 4 corners rite smart.
And yes im cutting flat on my old Hitachi 8" scm. Watched the Katz DVD. pretty good but im not buying a collins coping foot and 12 Bosch scm unless this becomes a habit.Hell built my whole house with a hand saw s I can hand cut a few copes.
It is a urethane foam product with a white overcoating. I don't know where this HO found it but the directions said it was "Easy to install". The pattern repeats every 21 3/4" and at $19.45 a foot, I threw a lot of it away. Showed up with two miter saws and ended up building a plywood box and using a handsaw. ;-) Liquid nail and a few nails to hold it and I am the hero.....LOL
It looked kinda neat in the close up but pretty hideous in the wide shot.....not your work. I meant the HO style.
That was my thoughts when I opened the first box. It actually looks good with her French provincial period furniture. The biggest challenge was making the joints work out right. I don't have the Gay gene so I know crap about decorating but it was a challenge all the same.
"I don't have the Gay gene so I know crap about decorating but it was a challenge all the same."
i do
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
"spring" it in.
cut it to fit tight .... set one corner ... hold/bend the middle out ... and push in the other end. Then let go ... if it's cut right .... friction fit ... pops right where it's supposed to be.
That's only if you forgot your 4lb sledge hammer, and 1/2" caulk gun at home.
sledge in it then caulk the cracks down the walls U just made!
at least the crown will be a tight fit.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It would difficult if not impossible to spring a 9" crown.
mike
ok Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I always cope when painting the trim, run your first peice square then run your cope peice just a little heavy, there is a great thread about coping with a grinder you should check out.
I was hanging a bathroom years ago, 9" crown milled from 2x stock and it proved to be a real pain. It was really stiff (poplar) with a bunch of short runs and I couldn't get the cope to lay in. I cut a miter on the side that I would normally leave "square" (actually a 3-degree back cut) a quarter inch longer than the run and nipped the long point square the actual length of the run. Then I coped the piece to lay over. By rights I should have been able to cope it without this move. I was coping with pitch blocks too. For some reason I couldn't get it to work and when I use this technique which lets the cope lay over just a quarter in of the "square" piece and everything else is cut out of the way with the miter it worked great. It doesn't save you much work on the cope but it'll let you get away with a little slop. I saw someone above refer to a psuedo cope. He is porbably using a similar or the same technique.
TreeTalk,
IF you can make the Mitre, you can make the Cope.
Just watch out for one thing. I'll assume that since you said 9" you'll be cutting it on the flat with a Compound Mitre saw?
9" is awful big, and making it requires removing a ton of material. More often than not, a crown (Even more so a cove) that big will develop a cup.
you have to be careful to find the right position on the saw table. Hold the top or bottom down tight to the table and the other might be open a fair amount.
You have to judge the cup and try to hold the stock neutral on the table when you cut it.
For what it's worth, I am in the process of installing some 4", unpainted maple crown and coping is defintely the way to go. I did a couple to test runs that turned out like crap and relized the devil is in the details. I ended up spending extra time to set the straight-edge cleat on my miterstation to hold the crown on the saw at the EXACT angle at which it will be on the wall/ceiling (remember your miterstation base = ceiling). The two inner edges on the back of the crown should be the exact distance from the corner of the ceiling and wall. I fiddled with a test piece and a carpenters square on my miterstation until it was EXACT, set the cleat along my miterstation then trasfered the distance from the cleat to the fence onto the ceiling.
For my copes: hit them with a regular coping saw, then I got some little 3/4" diameter drum sanders that fit onto my rotozip and whala! tuned them up perfectly. Careful not to get too ambitous and burn through the back cut with the sander!
Jay