What is the method of application, from studs on out, for dressing the surrounding face of a zero-clearance fireplace in cultured stone?
The Owens Corning (Cultured Stone is their product name) site gives a spec like this: studs, gypboard, diamond lath, trowel in a mortar base and scratch it, then do the installation, butter-backing each piece with thinset, then grout and tool.
What have you done?
A rear addition provides a small-scale example of how to frame efficiently.
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Replies
That is exactly what my mason did on ours, with on exception, we used plywood rather than drywall. The installation instructions permitted either plywood or drywall.
Obvioulsly if plywood is used you must respect the stand off requirements of the fireplace.
Ours turned out amazing. It's about 10x10 around the fireplace with a 4 foot "chimney" extending up to the ceiling which is about 25 feet high above the fireplace.
Its a centerpiece in our house & visitors are amazed that it's not real stone.
Gene,
These can look cool, Ive done a few, but start thinking of go sticks or something to hold the stone in place for a bit, if you try to gap, they like to gravity slide. Ends up taking longer than originally imagined.
The ones I have seen that have gone bad are more about design issues and layout stone to stone.
-zen
I do this type of work alot, durarock works great. I have worked as a lather forever, but its alot easier not to mess with lath and scratch, just hang durarock and butter and stick and grout. Ive even used durarock with real stone veneer just use shims. alot of guys use silicone to stick then grout. I prefer type s.
Scotty,
That method that you describe is exactly the way I wanted to apply cultured stone also. I contacted the Owens Corning and asked if that was OK to install that way, they said no, have to do scratch coat, lath, ect.
When I go to install mine I'll install the way you described! I quess It won't be warrantied though! What do you think? Biff
silicone is the way to go on real stone veneer, not cultured. too many uneven services from the molding process. owens corning wouldnt warrantie glue or durarock. durarock works great for cultured w/o lath just butter and stick. let me know biff im interested.
Scottv,
Are you saying you have tried thinset with cultured stone right on to hardie or durarock cement board? Whats was the outcome? Thanks, Biff
Capn Mac had it right.I would call the manufacturer and get their specs. Most of the time they are on pdf files on their web site. Studs, plywood, diamond lathe, scrath coat of type "M" or "N", then glue down with more type "N". There is nothing wrong with using gyp board or hardibacker in lieu of plywood, but again, look at the manufacturer's specs. I would not use thinset unless unless the site specs it, and none that I have seen spec it. Some, if you call them, will call out a medium bed mortar, but not thinset.Good Luck.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Yes, I have done it and it works great. I lathed for a living for a long time and could lath but ... It works great and is a lot easier for prep and clean up not to have to scratch. Just throw up some durarack w/durarock screws and start sticking, the stone will key very well. I was reluctant to not lath, but was amazed at how well it sticked. can show you pics if you want. I have worked with 2 diffrent stone masons both with 20 plus years exp. and was told lathing ( as I was a lather) was not the way to go in interior applications.
type s is what we use for stone,
Do you use type S for outdoor applications with cultured stone, I'm thinking of going with Profit Ledgestone. Seems alot easier than lathing and that whole process, cuts about 3 steps out of the whole picture! Thanks, Biff
lath and scratch outside, I use durock inside only. I know people who have used it but I wouldnt. In my area lath inspections are required in most cities, for all exterior lath applications ( stucco, cultured, and real stone veneer). Outside I use 2 layers of grade d paper, butyl tape and caulk all wall penetrations and leave 1/2 in caulk joint around windows,(useing casing bead to make joints), scratch, stick, grout. I went on the website for o.c. and cultered stone and they recommend type n. But seriously I have used type s on everything. the real stone masons I know from a big union shop I worked with learned me wrong I guess. but It works really well. I have done 6000 sq ft jobs with these guys wrong, with no issues. I trust using type s.
I use type N on cultured stone . Portland on cement block faceings. What I did was metal lath ,coat with type N and back butter the stone and stick before the scratch dryed.
I was told that type S was for professional masons who could realy lay some brick . and that type N didn't dry as fast so that a rank amature like me could use up the small amount that I mixed before it stuck to the hod.
Got a picture?
Have a home coming up that is going to have one very similar except only 16 feet high
I don't have any pictures scanned. I'll try to remember to scan one and post it next time I visit the inlaws (they have the scanner).I never found any articles on cultered stone - one of the reasons I had a mason do it rather than doing it myself.
Are there any artilces about doing fireplaces with cultured rock in FHB or JLC
studs, gypboard, diamond lath, trowel in a mortar base and scratch it, then do the installation, butter-backing each piece with thinset, then grout and tool.
What have you done?
Just what you listed, excepting those times when I followed the OC directions for durock or similar cementitious board.
The only thing "left out," is the order. Put any corners on first, and from top down (the better to not drip thinset on what is already in place). The the "field," also from top to bottom.
Do not, repeat, do not, I say again, do not, forget to finish all needed attachments, blocking, blockouts, etc., for the mantel. (This includes, even, when you are using a stone slab "shelf" mantel, too--not that I would know anything about it . . . <whistling innocently, la-di-da>)
>Just what you listed, excepting those times when I followed the OC directions for durock or similar cementitious board.Agreed. I added a bit of acrylic base coat to my mortar mix for greater adhesion. Never had one slip.>The only thing "left out," is the order. Put any corners on first, and from top downThat depends on the type of cultured stone. Some of the dry stack looks recommend bottom up. If any mortar falls, leave it where it is. Wait about 4-12 hours, and then it will come off clean. Too soon, and it'll smear. Too long, and it's stuck.
Some of the dry stack looks recommend bottom up
Glad you said that, I'd forgotten that (hadn't installed any lately).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Chuck your wall looks great but open up that window to the left and let your helper go
That's a good one!!!
It was quite cold that day, but the jacket seemed much more useful to my wife stuffed into the crack where my air hose ran through the window to prevent a draft than to keep my poor bones warm.
Thanks for the compliment on the wall - I've started getting the not so subtle hints that it is time to get to work on the mantle. I'm still trying to decide whether to go with a rustic look (I've got a nice slab of 4" thick and 10" wide oak or a 12" diameter half-log of cedar out in the shop) or a more finished one built up with some crown and other molding.
-Chuck
Gene,
I have attached a couple of pictures of my first Cultured stone application around a fireplace in our new family room addition from this fall.
I used 3/4" plywood on the wall studs, then 1/2" Hardibacker on top of that, fastening with 2" stainless steel roofing nails. I then put up the lathing with plenty of the SS roofing nails, being sure to put rows of nails on top of the studs and then filling in the field as well. As you can see, I did not use the felt paper under the lathing, as I figured that the scratch coat of mortar would bond to the Hardibacker. I was using drystack, so I started with the hearth and worked my way up (I put down cardboard and then taped plastic on top of the hearthstones to keep mortar off of them). I also tinted the mortar to a brown color similar to the most common color in the stone so that any smearing on the stones or cracks between the stones would not show up as much as with grey mortar. As others have said, put the corner pieces up first and fill in the field (I worked in about 3' tall bands across the width of the wall), buttering the back of each stone. They cut very easily with an old circular saw and a cheap diamond masonry blade, but it does make a lot of dust - do it outside with the wind blowing away from you!
Note the 4 giant lag bolts above the fireplace - they are for attaching the mantle when I get around to making it. As others have suggested, be sure to block up in behind the wall sufficiently before putting up whatever wall covering you will be using! Also note that I used spacers under the hearth stones closest to the floor - I put down 3/4"thick hardwood strip flooring in the room and did this so I could slip the ends of the strips under the stone instead of trying to butt them up to the uneven surface of the stone
I guess my project turned out o.k. for a first timer - the wife likes it pretty well, which I guess is the most important thing!
-Chuck
I use my wetsaw, they cut like butter
Yep, a wet saw would be the cat's meow - and help to avoid that wonderful cloud of dust that you get with a dry saw.
On the brown stones I found that I could use a brick hammer to peck at the cut ends a little to roughen them up and then smear some of the thinned tinted mortar on the end and it would look pretty much like a natural end (much better than the raw saw cut). I found that I didn't have enough extra stone to find ones of the right length that precisely filled in each row.
Drystack is kind of like putting together a jigsaw puzzle from a pile of pieces from 3 or 4 puzzles and no picture to go by. It was fun, but a little challenging.
-Chuck
Howdy Chuck,I think your fireplace looks great.Got a couple of questions, though: What is the brand or maker of the cultured stone? Why did you use all that stainless? Expecting a lot of rain in your family room? (: (Bet you're a Virgo)Alan
Alan,
Uh, is it that obvious that I'm a Virgo?
The stone I used was Owens Corning (Cultured Stone is actually their trade name for the product), but there are many manufacturers of cast stone products. The particular one I used was called Southern Ledgestone.
Hopefully we won't get too much rain inside. I do tend to overdo things a bit, and I happened to have 10 lbs of the SS roofing nails on hand for another outdoor project, so.............
Thanks for the compliment on the fireplace.
-Chuck
I'm afraid it is, bro.Sometimes I just can't help myself, either. (;BTW, about how much a square foot is that cultured stone?Alan
I didn't know I was so easy to spot (astrologically speaking).
I paid $5.66 /sq ft for the stone, but apparantly that price can vary quite a bit (another yard 75 miles away quoted me $ 8.50 / sq ft for the exact same stone). The corner stone is a little more pricy at $7.32 / lin ft. I think the 19" x 20" hearthstones were about $17.00 each.
Hope that gives you a little bit of an idea on pricing. I'm located in middle TN, and I think one of the manufacturing plants is in AL, so I may have gotten a little cheaper pricing than other parts of the country.
-Chuck