Any advice from the experts on culvert construction would be most appreciated. This is a first time project for me and I envision installing to 15″ culverts, side by side, 10′ long, which I believe well exceeds the width of large delivery trucks that may use my road.
I planned on leveling the culverts and then backfilling with 1/2 or 3/4 shale.
Any recommendations most welcome. I’d hate like the dickes to see our propane delivery truck crush through my new culvert.
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Replies
how deep and 10' isn't long enough...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
IMERC, I'm approximately 3' deep and I think your point that 10' isn't enough is well taken.
All advice is much appreciated, as this is something I've not done before, I've seen these things fail on neighboring ranches and don't want it to happen here.
if you can go 16' you'll be a much happier camper.. more if you care to...
12' of road and 2' on either side for headers and erosin controll... raise the headers so the ends of the culvert are easy to see in bad weather and fog and snow or you stayed to long someplace... A near miss can really hurt a vehicle at that depth let alone it's occupnts.. One mishap will be two too many... slope the tops of them so that they act as guides to set you back onto the passover and not into the ditch... the culverts are weakest at the ends and it defies logic how easily they can be colasped or caved in...
think of the culverts a navigation hazard...
come winter time 12' won't be enough when things get icey or muddy... better safe than sorry..
I have 7 of these in my driveway ... the smallest being twin 12"x16' and the largest at triple 48"x40'... deeper means / equals longer and reworking a culvert seems to cost more the 2nd or 3rd time around than it did the 1st time... 36" over the top should work just fine against all on commers...
or is that 36" to the bottom of the culvert.. not the top...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
ask the moderator to tke this thread out of the Fest folder and put it in the the techniques or disscussion folder..
you'll get better results and exposeure unless yur gonna throw a massive party fer us right after job completion..
suggest the party and yo'll stay nights and weekends keeping up with the responses... might even have to quit yur regular job to devote yur time full time here...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
A little experience here, Terry. I spent Friday evening moving 5 pieces of 18 inch, eight foot sections. Translation = heavy ! I need three pieces at my church, but it was given to me, so I got all 5. You never know what else might come up.
I did a crossing about 20 years ago, used 30 inch pipe, two 8 foot sections laid side by side. Realized very quickly that it wasn't wide enough for my 70 hp tractor. Went back and got two 4 foot lengths, so I was up to 12 feet. I was able to build sheer end walls - so I had a full 12 feet of "road". This is a wet-weather ditch on my farm.
I'd shoot for as much width as you can get. If you're going to have dirt sidewalls, you know, sloped, you're going to lose a lot of your roadway width. You could place a footer and build a block wall at each end, or buy the masonry units that are made for the pipe ends, the wedge shaped deals that taper out.
I'd also shoot for as much depth of material as possible to cover the pipe. The pipe is strong, but it all depends on what you're driving across. Cement mixer, for instance, is much much heavier than a pickup. I placed about 16 inches of clay, then for erosion control, I added a good layer of #57 rock.
It's fun work, kind of rewarding. Do a good job . . . if it's like mine, you'll be looking at it for years.
Greg
terry.. i like a 12' driveway..
and at the entance the radius both ways can easily open this width to 22' - 24'
also.. most failed culverts that i see were not buried deep enough..
whatever the width of your drive at the culvert location... make the culvert 2' wider on each side.. and then makea headwall to protect the opening..
so.. if your drive is 14' wide at the culvert location.. make the culvert 18' plus two headwallsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, thanks very much for your input. My intimidation factor is diminshing with the help from the site.
Greg, thanks very much for your input. I neglected to mention my ranch has a plethora of native rock, so I intended to create whatever-you-might-call-it at the ends, surrounded by rock, mortared into place. I like the idea of footings better.
Sounds too as if I ought to look at extending to at least 12" for safety purposes.
Terry, I think you'll find that the pipe (at least the concrete variety) comes in 4 foot and 8 foot sticks. That's why I would up with 12 feet. I need to look into the corrugated plastic variety - what I've seen looks like 20 foot lengths. I need two 36" pieces, plus the fabricated "ends" to cross another ditch on the farm. It's deep, but I'm also planning for about twenty inches of clay on top. I'd really prefer concrete for the weight of the tractor, but with enough dirt, the plastic pipe should be fine.
I'm going to dress it heavily with rock - this job is right next to the creek, which overflows every three or four years, so the crossing will be totally under water from time to time.
Greg
Hi, Greg, I'm looking at what I thought was corrugated aluminum, comes in 20' lengths and I was planning on having those cut. From all the feedback on the site, I'm thinking 10' isn't enough, but I believe extenders are available.
I hadn't even considered concrete, I guess because I just hadn't seen it at the supply stores. Probably there - or available - and I just hadn't noticed it. I notice many of the culverts on neighboring ranches are the corrugated aluminum (or whatever) and seem to be holding up.
Sound like I'm on the right track?
those culverts most likely aren't alumunium... galvanized steel is more like it...
they have coupling bands to put culvert pieces together...
where are you...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I'm sure you're right (about the steel). I just wasn't thinking. I'm in Northern California, about 100 miles north of San Francisco.
yur up by Darcy...
are winters an issue???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
here the metal outlasts the CC and is cheaper...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I can buy surplus concrete pipe here from my City and the County. Once they take it up, they aren't allowed to re-use it. Some of it has boogered up ends - they aren't too careful with it. I can get an 8 foot stick of 30 inch pipe for $50. It's great pipe, but hard to handle. I welded up a three-point hitch boom for my tractor. Just the trick. I can lay the pipe right by myself.
There's a concrete testing firm here that pours square cylinders, I guess they're 8 inches square, the mold must be 24 inches long. Then they test the breaking strength. Bust 'em right in half. So you're left with a solid block of concrete, 8 x 8 with one square end and one ragged end. They're free for the hauling - these guys have a disposal problem. This is what I used to build plumb end-walls on my "bridge". South Georgia Gumbo Clay for a base; I didn't need a footer because of the dense base, and it hasn't moved in almost 20 years. Pretty neat look, too.
We don't have frost heave in South Georgia !
Greg
"We don't have frost heave in South Georgia !" I'm in Wisconsin. You want ours?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Well, I would . . . . but water freezes here at 55 degrees !
We're at 73 today. Wow.
Greg
if you can't fill the quotta I'll help...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I'm sending this over to Construction Techniques.
BP
Thank you! I wasn't sure how to do that.
This ones off to Construcstion Techniques as well.
BP
I know you've already gotten some excellent suggestions. Just wanted to add a couple of thoughts.
As several have said, 10' is not enough. The longer the better. It's a lot easier to cut it off once it's installed than it is to make it longer.
Pack material around the sides of the culverts and tamp it in place when you install it. Then pack at least a foot of stuff on top of them and tamp/pack that too. Then you shouldn't have any trouble with the things collapsing.
Are you SURE the culverts are big enough? I'd say half the culverts I see go in are undersized. Remember that tree branches and other trash can plug 'em up. Then you're looking at having your crossing wash out.
Having over-sized culverts does NOT pose a problem. Having undersized ones WILL.
Your local soil coservation place might be able to help you calc the culvert size you need.
One of my Uncles always dumps a few bags of concrete mix around his culverts. Once it sets up, it helps keep water from seeping alongside the culverts and washing them out. I've also seen welded collars put on culverts for the same reason.
That's all I can think of for the moment.
A: Bonds mature.
Thank you, I really like those suggestions. I've been a little hinky about possibly being undersized also. I was planning on two 15" pipes. This would be situated on a spillway below a pond which overflows (copiously) in rain storms. Think I better go a little bigger.
Your thoughts on reinforcing with tamping and concrete make a lot of sense to me and I hadn't thought of that.
Many thanks!
I have a 30' section at the end of our driveway. If a long trailer is going to turn in to the driveway it just makes it. If the culvert pipe is in a section where vehicles don't need room to turn a shorter section would work. I had to drag a 56' long steel beam up 1000' of driveway the truck could not make the turn.
When I was doing private excavation (15 - 20 years ago) I used Item-4 (local 2" screened gravel - stone/sand - what is used by townships for gravel roads - for a layer to bed the culvert in and for backfill. The material was hand tamped as placed for compaction and to keep the culvrt from creeping up as the ditck was filled.Stone headers built on the ends. Minimum of 12" on top - more is always better. I would rather see 1 larger pipe than 2 smaller pipes side by side. Do the math for volume of flow. Consider worst case for the ditch you will be crossing.I have used both steel and plastic culverts. Both have connectors for adding more length. As with driveways - go as wide as space will allow. One source for steel pipe had "cut offs". These pipes had been damaged on one end and cut back. I could get two sections and a collar cheaper than a full length. One culvert (58" dia) had been an underground storage tank in a former life.Enjoy -
Thanks, Old Guy, I'll have to do some measuring to see if I can go with one as opposed to two pipes. Your thoughts on the foundation bed really help also.
Thanks to everone for your great ideas. It's been blatantly obvious that all of you know 10 times more than me on this subject and your help has been much appreciated.
Terry
Don't know if this is the right protocol but this thread is great and I'd thought I'd bring it back to life for a couple clarifications.My driveway got washed out and needs a rebuild. Since the local companies aren't responding I guess I'm going to have to learn to do culverts. I'm going to put in 2 - 24" plastic pipes, covered by crusher run. Plenty of room to put 18" or so on each side and 24" between, 24" on top. My question is, once everything is dug out and the pipes laid, how do you keep them from moving around as we start dumping on the crusher run? I was thinking of driving 4' rebar around them and maybe brick wire across the top to hold them down. Next question is - how do you compact as you go?Thanks much.
Steve.
Generally it's best to start your own thread. Otherwise people get the 2 situations confused. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. With smaller pipes I like to bed them by hand. But these are too big to do that with. So you'll have to dump rock on them slowly. Dump some on both sides so they don't roll one way or the other. Then dump some on top near the middle. Go slowly and work your way towards the ends. I've never tried to compact rock. Don't know that it's really necessary.
Q: Why can't Chinese Barbecue?
A: Because the rice falls through the grill
I've never tried to compact rock. Don't know that it's really necessary.
It is, particularly with plastic pipe. I know several here who believe plastic pipe is always a mistake, collapses. They never compacted.
What I do is drive a rubbertire tractor over the fill, parallel to the pipe, as soon as I can get the tractor in there, continuing with several lifts.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
But when compacting with the tractor doesn't it tend to pack the material under the tube and push it up? Would using rebar and brick wire to hold it down work?Steve.
"But when compacting with the tractor doesn't it tend to pack the material under the tube and push it up?"
I've never heard of that happening. You'd have 10 times as much weight on top of the culvert as you would uplift underneath.
Plenty of lead in the old pencil... and I only write to one person.
[Rod Stewart, 50, on his plans for more kids with his wife, Rachel Hunter, 25]
My experience is like Boss'. No need for rebar or brick wire. By the time it's close enough for the tractor to clear, the culvert will stay down. Stone with dust really isn't elastic enough to push much.
This really isn't complicated. The only potential problem is lack of compaction -> crushing.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Steve,
In culverts of that size as well as with smaller just add the material slowly and have someone distribute on both side evenly. Crusher run is a great product for this. I would avoid the rerod as it may end up poking out of the surface if the material should settle some time. You could let the material compact naturally and top up, use a plate tamp after you reach the top - too soon and the material will be forced under the pipe causing it to rise, or add all the material and waater it down (just enough to soak the material and not was out!). Let set overnight. The water will take out the air and the material will settle. Then top up.
BossHog - With my loader I'll have left side wheels tamping and right sides on solid ground. Tamping after adding 12" would easily pop that thing up. I guess that would be called "the wrong way to do it". A bit different but a guy I know in commercial concrete told me about a comedy show he saw where some guys threw in a culvert and then poured in a very wet concrete mix. Didn't work out the way they wanted!OldGuy - That's what I figured might work but never did this before. Thanks much.Steve.
I'd agree - assuming that you're installing the culverts "in the dry". A few addt'l items:
A precast concrete (cored and mortared) headwall or flare end section (sold by Hancor and ADS) would help to direct flows into the culvert.
It would also help to install low permeable soil (i.e. clayey) at the upstream end to help prevent piping (water traveling along the crushed gravel trench bedding and backfill envelope).
try to mimic the pre-existing stream grade to prevent stream-cutting or "ponding" within the culvert(s).
I noted that you're planning to allow space for compaction between the culvert pipes - good idea.
When setting pipe, dump on the top first, slow and easy, when using a machine to do it. A little at a time, generally if you do it properly equal amounts will fall to each side. Good to have a man in trench to line you up and shovel material. You want to shake the bucket for a little comes out not the whole load.
Compaction can occur once you have the pipe thruly seated usually 1/2 way. It helps to compact with feet before you run equip. Take a compaction run down one side switch to opposite. After that bring in more material fill and have a man in trench compacting as you go.