I was watching an guy nail down plywood underlayment with ring shanks. He was working from what looked like large old cake pan of mixed nails from which he would grab a handful, and then sort through them and throw the culls back into the tray. When I asked him why he didn’t set them aside, he replied that the whole pan was mixed so it made no difference.
Given that he needed 1280 nails for the eight sheets, and that he picked up an average of 60 nails in a handful, how many extra handfuls did he need to pick through by putting the culls back?
Let’s say the tray had 15% non-ring shank nails at the start, and it held 2000 nails.
Just curious.
Replies
Just use statistics and factorials for that, fairly straightforward.
When I asked him why he didn't set them aside, he replied that the whole pan was mixed so it made no difference. Sounds like the logic of the 'scientists' and probably a firm believer in human caused GW? Besides, he used that same reasoning for selecting data for his climate models???<G>
"Just use statistics and factorials for that, fairly straightforward."
Come on, that's like saying just use eggs and an oven to make souffle. I'm still curious.
As an aside, I see you are still on French time.
Need more info.
I've done similar to your hypothetical problem, throw the straight nails back into the pan; BUT, I throw them onto one end of the pan so as to be able to use then for something else!.
Now, does your hypothetical climate 'scientist' floor guy really mix all the nails he throws back in too? That is what the climate guys do, pick until they get something that looks good? <G>
BTW, heading toward east coast in a couple of hours, figured why reset all the way to west coast time right away <G>. About 7 PM last night, DW says "you have been sleeping on the floor again for an hour, you might as well get up and go to bed". So, here I am again.
Well you figure each time he took a handful and threw the "bad" nails back, he was increasing the odds the next handful would have more bad nails in there. So you'd have to know exactly what the ratio of good/bad was before you started, assuming they were perfectly mixed. After each handful, you'd have to recalculate the good/bad ratio again. But if he was throwing them to a certain side, he'd have better odds than the theoretical perfect mixture.
Too many variables out there.
42
That's the answer to all "ultimate questions". ;^)
Jim
just a straight 42???
or a factor of 42???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
42.0
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
It will take him 34 'trips' to the pan, instead of 22.
Out of the first 60, 51 will be good. The proportion of 'good' to 'bad' will drop, as he keeps returning the 'bad' ones to the pan.
By the 10th dip into the pan, only 46 will be good.
By the 20th dip, only 39.
By the 34th dip, when he takes 60, only 17 will be good.
I just used an excel file to work out how many were good each time he took 60, here is the spreadsheet.
You guys have too much time on your hands.....
On a hill by the harbour
Nonsense! Such matters are of the greatest importance. <G>
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?
On a hill by the harbour
no way...
not possible...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I hate to say it but I have to agree....
On a hill by the harbour
Not only that but a rocket scientist told them to figure it out they needed more info.
Then we have a response, hmmm.
Well back in the day when I was a rocket surgeon......
On a hill by the harbour
Thanks! And given that as the number of culls increase they will take more time to sort, his extra twelve handfuls represent an even more considerable waste of time.
BTW. Although the conditions are theoretical, my question did stem from watching a situation just as I described it.
Thinking outside the numbers box...
The simplest answer is a question.
Why would anyone want to RE-sort nails that they have already sorted ?
Can I answer that??
Because they are just dumb!!!
Hey , I resemble that comment.This pan nail thing is hypothetical right. No one actually did this.
I have a fealing that it might be.
I would tell you a joke about the two blondes that were nailing a sheet of plywood. On kept throwing nails away, when asked why, it was because they were backwards, the other told her, silly, those are for the other side of the house!
> I would tell you a joke about the two blondes that were nailing a sheet of plywood. On kept throwing nails away, when asked why, it was because they were backwards, the other told her, silly, those are for the other side of the house!
That's from a Laurel and Hardy movie. Stan picks up a nail -- fairly large, 16d at least -- with the head facing the wall. Ollie tells him, no, no, no, that one's for the other wall. IIRC, it was a talkie, which makes it no older than the late 1920's.
-- J.S.
I didn't realize Laurel and Hardy were blondes. Things ya learn here.
Life is Good
I knew it was from them originally, I was trying to insult blonds though!
"This pan nail thing is hypothetical right. No one actually did this."
Unfortunately yes, it is true. It isn't his only pan either. He has several buckets of assorted screws he is quite attached to as well. I guess it is kind of like the large stock pots Chinese families kept adding ingredients to over several generations. A bit in, a bit out every day.
Perhaps because he doesn't want to use up the tray of mixed nails he has had for years?
That would make sense...In a twisted sort of way. ;o).. .
If he can pickup 60 nails and finger them to nail, I'll hire him today.
If he sorted through them using both hands, then everyone's answer should reflect that.
He was having a devil of a time sinking the heads flush with the ply. I didn't get a close look, but I think they were drywall nails.
Is this a true story? I remember nailing a lot of decks, by hand, with 8d screw nails. They weren't fun to drive. Four whackers to get the head flush and they weren't light taps.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Interesting thing here.
I am being encouraged by our local community college to have a teaching presence there. The question actually requires an exercise in logic. It might not make a bad assignment....
On a hill by the harbour
who's the recieptiant of the logic... you???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Logic was probably not the right word. Philosophy probably works better but logic is part of philosophy...
On a hill by the harbour
think about how much time and money he save if he just threw those nails away and bought a new box.
Hey Brownie,
Maybe someone should do a spreadsheet to analyze the cost benefits? <G>
Personally I would flip if I saw one of my crew doing it. With the price of labour today it takes me about a half a nanosecond to justify the cost of a new box of fasteners. The exception would be if you only needed a few.
On a hill by the harbour
The exception would be if you only needed a few.But if he kept them seperated, on the next job, a few would save you money, In fact he should be seperating the nails on his own time.
Why were they all thrown into one bin in the first place? I use separate tough plastic bags, so i can see the nails/screws, and keep them in buckets.looking for a tray system where i could keep the nails/screws in plastic bags in trays and label the trays.As a renovation carpenter I find I need to have an assortment of fasteners on the job site.
> I would flip if I saw one of my crew doing it.
As a homeowner, I'd certainly be very skeptical of the competence and cost-effectiveness of the contractor if I saw that. You'd be very right to flip, because it makes you look bad.
That being said, I have old film cans full of mixed nails, but I only use them at home. When I need a few, though, I do all my picking first. If it's my time and I only need a dozen or so, that's OK. For 1280 nails, no way. That's what pneumatic nailers are for.
-- J.S.
Edited 12/2/2009 4:15 pm ET by JohnSprungX
I work in film too (construction coordinator). I have a 10 3/4" diameter film can at home that I use for having odd screws. The very cool thing about film cans is that when you take the lid off you can literally pan for what you need in the lid.
On a hill by the harbour