Morning Folks,
This week I am having to re-address an issue the builder has addressed twice in the last 12-14 months. I am in a four-year old home, new construction, and the home’s first owner. I am presently outside the homes original two-year warranty for which this issue extends well beyond the past three years.
Water is infiltrating into the home. The infiltration is observed in several areas, including the basement and all primary floors. While it took +18 months to solve and correct water entering the basement, the problems continue on the first and second floor.
The problem on the first floor is located in the study, which faces the street. There id a bedroom directly above this study, and there is a large bay window in the study, and the point at which water is causing damage. The damage is taken on the bay window’s drywall ceiling, which is horizontal (flat). The bay window itself is sloped, and meets the exterior’s brick facade.
The bay window’s metal roof meets the brick facade where it is pinned, and sealed using silicon. Normally, I would have expected the metal roof to travel underneath the exterior siding, employing flashing to protect against water runoff. Unfortunately, I do not know how this is typically done when the exterior siding is brick.
Anyway, the water damage pulled down all of the bay window’s drywall ceiling, with some additional damage to the surrounding drywall walls. With the drywall ceiling gone (it all came down on its own), I can observe how the exterior sheathing material (OSB), brick facade, and steel beam header (for the brick) have been employed–and is where my curious concern comes from.
I can see the exterior sheathing material (OSB) enter right into the cavity created by the flat, drywall ceiling of the bay window and the metal roof. While there is some fiberglass batt insulation in the cavity, there is nothing to stop water from running down the exterior OSB sheather or the interior brick face and landing directly onto the bay window’s drywall.
The sides of the steel beam used for the brick header are coated with a reddish paint, but the bottom of this beam, which is exposed, shows a lot of surface oxidation (rust). This tells me there may have been a prolonged period of moisture (from rain) in this area. My concern is that I would expect that some sort of method for draining water in this cavity is necessary, and according to any local building code.
I have been told previously that there is a required air-gap between the brick facade and the exterior sheathing material. Additional, weep holes must be in place to all water to drain. I see these aspects in other parts of the home and they seem to work. But, the problem of draining water in the sheathing-brick cavity above and at the bay window seems of a great concern to me.
The builder no longer wishes to address this issue. A carbon copy of my home was built a year ago, and exhibited water infiltration problems in this area, too. In fact, our homes are not the only homes in this developing commuity (Buford, Georgia) that are having bay window water infiltration problems.
I just removed all my personal property from the room after taking pictures with a digital camera for the original as-is condition. I then removed the large water-saturated pieces of drywall that fell to the floor, and the buckets of water that I used to try to capture some of the water. I admit to haven grossly underestimated the amount of water in the bay window cavity, but my first-time homeowner ignorance is at play here, and I apolgize in advance.
So, before contacting my insurance agent (do not really want to file a claim), I wish to learn if what is employed in the design and implementation of the construction is correct, or at the very least acceptable. Unfortunately, my county is under a great strain in terms of county inspectors, and a news article last showed that these over-worked inspectors spend about 5-minutes on an inspection.
So, I guess I am asking for advice. I could post a few pictures, including taking more upon request. Nothing in the first-time homeowner covers this area. Oh, I should state previously this bay window problem was seen as water-spotting on the drywall. It occurs when moderate to strong rain strike the front of the home. As such, I would never consider pressure washing my homes exterior.
Replies
I am not building pro.
"The bay window's metal roof meets the brick facade where it is pinned, and sealed using silicon. Normally, I would have expected the metal roof to travel underneath the exterior siding, employing flashing to protect against water runoff. Unfortunately, I do not know how this is typically done when the exterior siding is brick."
The roof need not and probably should not extend under the brick siding.
BUT, you are right on the basic details. There should be flashing under the siding that directs water out and over the top fo the metal siding.
Here is a sample detail for a window in a brick wall.
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/imquaf/himu/codemo_003.cfm
And more here
http://www.brickinfo.org/html/frmset_thnt.htm
"So, before contacting my insurance agent (do not really want to file a claim),"
I doubt that they will pay for much of anything if at all. Typically they only pay for immediate damage and not long term "maintaince or design" issues. And even when they pay for immediate damages it is often only for the secondary damage. For example, you had a flat roof that did not drain properly and water damage over the years caused the rafters to rot and then "suddenly" one day the roof collapes.
The would probably pay for replacing the ceiling and maybe the rafters, but not the roof it'self.
In your case if they would pay for anything it would be replacing the drywall and associated finsihes. But not fixing the leaky wall which is the cause. And the DW repairs are probably less than your deductible.
You DO NOT want to make a claim for this.
You might want to discuss this with your agent, but ONLY as a hyopthecical to see what you coverage is. Do it in his office and as what this clause is and what that clause is. Say that your neighbor has such and such and wanted to know what your policy covers.
I am not sure, but I did a google and it appears that the county and not city does the building inspections.
And they use currently use "CABO One & Two Family Dwelling Code: 2000 Edition with 2002, 2003 & 2004 Georgia
Amendments"
But I don't have that so I don't know what it says specifically.
And I don' know what they used when your house was built.
But it this is an ongoing problem with new construction I would start by contacting the building department and finding out if this was OK when yours was built. Also to alert them that this is a problem area and that they need to inspect it some more.
Then I would visit with an attorney and find out what the basic laws are in your state on construction defects. Then contact some of the other HO that you know with similar problems.
Bill, thank you for the advice, direction, and reference information. I agree, I do not want to be filing insurance claims.
Mornin' yurself and welcome to BT...
Pictures ar always helpful... I you know how to resize them in to the 100KB range or less that'd be nice too..
Was the builder a National chain / builder???
The part of the bay window that you are refering to that is sloped... Would that be the roof???
Is the brick facade real brick???
The roof should have been flashed into the brick and there is an excellent chance that this is where you water is getting in... Can you see any type of felt (tar paper or similar) between the brick and the house's sheathing??? Also, are you saying that the brick is fastened directly to or up against the sheathing??? Interior and exterior pics of all this would be very helpful...
Where is the water leak on the second floor???
The weep holes should be at the bottom or foundation elevation and the water should not be getting in to start with.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Sorry IMERC, I caught your second reply and not the first. Let me answer your questions ... I will post some pictures.
The builder is Flornoy Construction, which later became Minear-Jones Constructions. Yes, the slope is the metal roof. Sorry for not being clear, there. Its real brick. I will need to borrow a ladder (or purchase a suitable one) in order to close-inspect anything outside, like weep-holes, etc. I will go grab the step ladder for an in-side-the-cavity look to see if I can see flashing ...
About pictures ... is this something that needs to be done somewhere off of the taunton website and linked in a thread, or can this forum accept pictures in an uploaded fashion? I can also email them upon request.
The copper roof can probably have a counter flashing cut into the brick and over the roof. A competent roofer or copper guy can handle that.
The other roof souds like it is leaking somewhere higher than where you see the water entering, which sound like a seam in the sheathing.
Pics are beat kept around 100k in size. Alot of folks here use Irfanview, free to dl on the web. Post pics from your post using the attach files option and follow the instructions. It's pretty easy.
Good luck,
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
OMG! With step ladder in place I got up into that cavity and one-handed pushed back the fiberglass batt insulation. I can see light passing through the clear silicone sealant. There is no sub-roof or roof sheathing material and I can easily touch the metal roof.
I am have trouble seeing into what is suppose to be the air-gap between the brick and the wall's exterior sheathing material. No light, but looking close (enough for my head to make contact) it looks like the brick literally touches the wood. I thought this was a no-no?
In the cavity where you can see and touch the metal room from the inside, I can see the brick (5-6 bricks high), their motar seams seem equal, finger-touching reveals no signal of a metal flange or flashing (would this be higher?).
I tried to find a thin, long opject to push into what is suppose to be the air-gap between the brick and OSB sheathing, but some of the OSB looks swollen. I do not know if this is due to the recent rains, historically, etc., or that maybe its a flashing material that is in place.
Pictures are coming.
Is the cauilk "silicone" or could it be something else???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Yes, it is silicone. I looked at it and its fine, not cracked or pulling away from the brick. I guess I need to grab a step ladder and a flashlight and see if there is flashing installed and not easily visible.
To all, I also forgot to elaborate on the second problem, which is on the second floor. I have a room that has been converted to a personal media room. Water is getting in between what appears to be a slight gap in the roof's sheathing material, which is also OSB. This gap runs horizontally. It took me (during the third time addressing that issue) +30 minutes of sitting in the attic trying to catch dripping water.
The water was found collecting in this gap, dripping down onto the blown fiberglass insulation, and then settling in the joist cavity that holds up the second floor ceiling. I guess its just blind luck that this is the joist cavity that has the room's ceiling AC register so the water sees that opening in the drywall as the path of least resistance.
The result is during the same rain conditions water drips down onto the carpet, just a couple of feet away from a ceiling-insalled projector. This is also an issue, like the bay window, that's been addressed a coupe of times by the builder's site-supervisor. Unfortunately, that individual left the company, because he disliked the developer's decision-making. Oh well, I will miss that proactive individual.
Am I safe to conclude that this gap in the roof's sheathing material is intentional, maybe to allow for expansion? I thought about getting some silicone to seal the gap, but that's a bandaid approach which doesn't address how water is getting into the gap in the first place.
Silicone is a poor choice.. The roof / brick connection needs flashing by all indications...
I suspect your main roof is metal also.. What is above the seam where the water is getting in??? (second floor) chimenys, vent, etc???
Don't seal that gap and it's normal for it to be there...
If you go back up into the attic look in the areas of the vents and look to see if there is ant felt paper between the roofing and sheathing..
Now fer yur pictures..
Most of use Irfanview for editing and sizing... Seems to be tailor made to the mission..
The attachment tab is the stert process to post a pic.... Pretty simple... But ya gotta wait for the upload to happen and wiat some more... Hit the done tab when finished...
You can email if you wish if you this doesn't work for you.. I got the time... Use the "reply via e-mail" tab almost to bottom of the reply window... I'm just watching poly dry....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
The main roof is shingle. Only the bay windows have this metal roof. Ok, got some picture, but this camera is a digital SLR. I will need to crop & resize, then compress for size. I have Photoshop (photography is a hobby of mine).
24441.1 might help you out a bit.
Thanks rez for the timely link...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 9/10/2004 1:18 pm ET by IMERC
You have the Nikon 660???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Nikon D70.
Nice... IIRC they have gone to 16MB now with that.. Digitized F5...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Some more pictures, if you wouldn't mind.
I'm suspicious of water infiltration at the brick cill/window frame junction above the metal roof. It looks as though the brick cill has no slope to the outside so that standing water can run down the inside of the brick veneer.
Some shots of the gap/junction between window frame and brick cill would be handy.
IanDG
You might be right... File that one away...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
It'd account for the water on the OSB sheathing
IanDG
Yes it would... now all of the rest of the windows come to mind...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Saasha,
If you are stil reading along here, you may be getting alarmed. it's not quite like the sky is falling on you, but you do need to be cautiously alarmed that things are not all right. I don't know if this is subjective or not and I don't want to get accused of prejudice, but from all i read and hear, local standards of pracice in the Atlanta region are well below that of mucjh of the country. They somehow seem to get away with doing things there that would be laughed right off anywhere else. Maybe the local inspectors need a raise, a boot on the rear, a lift, or an education. It seems certain that a lot of the builders need the latter.
hate to bear bad news, but stick around and you will find plenty of help to rectify things and see thru the BS from your builder.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think she went to lunch and isn't / hasn't come back yet........
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
.......or she's having an anxiety attack!!!!!!!! Could you imagine??? 4 year ol house....bastids!!
Once working for GC, went to do some rot repair.......within an hour of being there, we showed the HO that his house had been severely damaged do to insects and moisture (slab house), The poor old gut tossed his cookies right there all over his shoes and passed out cold on the lawn, had to call an ambulance!!
Never forget that day.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
DAMN!!!!
Sad part is that we see more of all the time...
I hope she is okay...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I wondered about that window above too. Any water in the cavity wall behind the brick is probably coming from up there. check the sealant (caulking) at the side and sill and verify the brick sill actually sheds water.
The abutment of the timber siding and the brickwork return, over the garage roof, is definitely not flashed properly -- the reveal isn't deep enough to flash it without returning the flashing onto the face of the brickwork [terrible design!].
I'd still like to know the Building Inspectorate responsibility here -- it's not as though the lack of a step flashing to the bay roof is hard to spot!
I seem to remember that Sasha said that the builder still has unsold houses on the development -- A sign on her front lawn, asking prospective purchasers to ring her before they commit if they're thinking of buying might put pressure on the builder if all else fails!
IanDG
they'll just counter with a grind her into the ground suit...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Is that so? -- there'd be no problem here if she simply pointed out the faults on her house to a propective customer. A cast-iron defence against a suit for slander here is that the remarks are true and I thought our libel laws are stricter than yours.
It wasn't a particularly practical suggestion anyway.
IanDG
It can be done, but best be done with an attorney looking over the wording. In fact Clark Howard has suggested doing just a thing.
He run a local and syndicated consumer action show out of Atlanta.
A sign in the yard saying.
"My baywindow leaks, will yours?"
"The is no flashing for the bay window, does yours have it?"
Don't need to name any names are accuse anyone of anything?
Just state the facts.
In Australia a very popular bumper sticker was "I'm not with the Commonwealth Bank -- ask me why"
IanDG
A sign in the yard saying.
"My baywindow leaks, will yours?"
LoL! How about a big blue tarp (which would also keep the rain out) reading "Guaranteed Leak-proof windows"?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Blue tarp ... that is exactly what a neighbor of mine suggested late Sunday evening in order to protect against this week's water while staying in a holding pattern for the building inspector to come and have a look. The idea was to anchor it from the second story window cills and pin the bottom at the ground. Surely an attention-getter. I have to admit, though, the sign I had in mind with the blue tarp was "Bad Construction, Come Look".
IMERC, the final repair for the basement problem was to yank out some earth from the rear corners, thus exposing the brick at the bootom where it met the ledger boards. The ledger board & brick were all sealed up with no weep holes affording a nice big damn to hold water.
It was only after threatening to go on Clark Howard's radio show that the came out (after 18-months) and installed retaining walls, discovered and fixed the missing weep holes, and unseal the brick-ledger interface allow waist-high water to pour out. They then regraded the lot and compressed the soil to counter wall-earth errosion. Their idea of hydraulic cement into the two cracks seemed to work and have worked since then.
The problem with posting signs is there may be an ordinance against it. If there is, you can bet this is one time the county will enforce an ordinance! Sounds like the next Breaktime Fest should be at your place and everyone can bring their tools and rebuild your house the way it should have been done to begin with! (Problem is, may have to tear it down and start over from the sounds of it.)
I like the idea too...
But here there are appeals and countersuits to the counter suits that countered the appeals that apealed the appeal...
The most bucks and the sleaziest lawyers win...
Being right becomes a figment of your imagination..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Sasha, when they "repaired" your basement leak(s), did they dig up your foundation or just "paint" the interior walls???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Are all of your bay windows constructed the same and what kind od metal roofing???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Only have the one bay window (thank goodness). Its a black metal, probably painted as such. I have some pickture, but they are all over 100KB. Can I send them to you at the address you forwarded to me? They are collectively about 900KB for five images. These are originally from a 6.3 megapixel camera.
Send one at a time.. I have dial up..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
The metal roof turned up and pinned to the brickwork, then caulked, is never going to give a satisfactory seal. There should have been a flashing mortared into the horizontal joint of the brickwork and dressed down to cover the upturned edge of the metal roof.
IanDG
From what I've heard here so far (looking forward to the pictures), you have absolutely no flashing which muist be there to prevent the water from coming into that wall. negligence on part of the builder.
The sheathing can normally be gapped top alow for swelling. But no water should ever find its wat to the sheathing. you have a layer of shigles to stop that from happening, and there is supposed to be aan underlayment of tarpaper as well. Shingle manufacturers require this to validate their warrantee but many slimy builders and cheap roofers skip the tarpaper. The missing tarpaper is probably a small part of the problem. Again - builder negligence.
if all this is documentable by a local objective and experienced hiome inspetor, I would say you have grounds for a major lawsuit against the buiolder. Given that other homes in the neighborhood seem to have similar problems, you may be able top cost share the legal fees in a class action suit.
Crappy half-ased work like this is often only a symptiom of greater problems or other problems so do not limit the home inspectors job to just the details you are aware of. open the door to him for a thorough job.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Your pics..
As a suggestion use 72 DPI and hold the height to 500 to 600 pixel..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
GEEEZE!!!
View Image
No flashing... That silly cone is not the way to go
View Image
Those streaks on the bottom side of the metal seem to indicate water flowing...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
More
View Image
WTB this detail is allowing water infiltration too....
Water is flowing off of the roof and running right back up and under...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Right! Tjhat would count as nothing more thana temporary repair in my book. maybe something to last a couple weeks is all and then only to stop 95%. At least there is a lip turned up to counterflash down over.
I had pictured this as being tucked up in under the main roof, not realizing there was another whole floor above it. The rust looks like it is getting into the beam enough that an engineer should examine it for ability to handle design loads on it. Something else to add to the legal claims - cost to repair beam
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
WTB this is a full tear out or damn near and go back at it from scratch...
I couldn't see enough detail but there didn't seem to be ant membrain of any kind at all any place... No strapping on the roof either... A whole bunch of NADA's here... The OSB is water damaged too... I have the feeling that this never did not leak... Same for her roof... Can't help but wonder how they fixed the foundation...
The mold........ Arrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!
Maybe the lady will luck out and the builder will buy back her house for a tidy sum...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
There will never be an unemployment problem in the Atlanta are, time they get around to fixing all the boo-boos like this.
good catch on that soffit sucking water in.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks...
They way she talked I figured it was the same folks that were building here that Doug and I looked at....
Soffit... ROAR!!! CRS'd that one big time.... Thanks again..
They must be working out of the same book...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
You mean OSB city? near Castle rock?
They using osb shingles yet?
It's that NFG standard practices manuel they are all reading
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Same outfits up there use the same book down in the Springs...
Stand there and look at it and you can't believe it...
I hope we didn't depress Sasha or get her PO'd at us..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
OSB cored siding...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Folks, my apologies. I had to go to work! I just came home and read a bunch of posts and now I feel like I need a drink, maybe three or four! This is not good at all. My head is spinning from reading the last 20 or so posts. Is the front of my home about to fall down, and not get up (poor attempt at humor)?
I do not mind taking more pictures. I am just not clear on what is being ask subject-wise. I guess come Monday morning I will call the county building inspector and request that a meet be setup, and also make arrangements for an independent inspector, too. Should I even consider contacting my insurance agent at all at this point?
There is a carbon copy of my home down the street that exhibited the exact same problems during its construction. I doubt the homeowner knew about the problem, and I did try to catch him before going to work. I want to know if he suffered any damage this past week, too.
The house across the street from me is a basment-less copy of my house with a slightly different facade, but had the same study & bay window. The bottom left corner of the center window was discovered to have dry-rot 2-3 weeks ago, and the builder refused any assitance for him because his two-year warranty just ended.
This means I know of at least three homes in this community with identical bay-windows with water infiltration and damage issues. I need a drink ...
No apologies neccessary...
The other picture request was for the window sill on the window abovw the bay window.. We're looking to see if the brick window sill is sloped down and away from the window... this another possible water infiltration point... Look to see if there has been any puddling of water on the sill.. Get a pic of the brick sill the window sill seah... (try macro)
Contact everybody you can and put the insurance agent at the bottom of the list..
Evidently since your neighbors are in the same shape.. There must be more...
Time to put the screws to the builder... He makes us look bad...
Please kep us posted as to what is going on... Therer are some here that would be happy to help...
Sorry for the bad news and being the messenger..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Did you get the Irfanview link???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Is it possible to safely get a birds eye view of the roof details in question from the upstairs window???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I thought I caught the link for that software. Maybe its late and that I have already had two drinks (Jack and the real thing). Tomorrow, I can get a bird's eye view from the bedroom above the study. I can remove the screen in the same manner the site supervisor's handyman did late last year when they repointed the motar (hope I phrased that right) thinking that was the cause of the problem.
Tomorrow it is...
All isn't lost...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Just got here. You are right: this is a tear-out/re-do. No point flashing that mess; there's too much damage and too many ways in for the water. I'd be curious to see pics of the main roof, too. Betcha no flashing but lotsa black goo instead on some penetration upslope her problem....
Jeezly builder oughta be shot as a public menace.... But the local Building Inspectors ought to have a list of every place that builder put up in their jurisdiction; maybe she can get it from City Hall--that stuff is usually public record--and do a survey to find out how many others have got the same probs. Buford's not a hick small town; if she can come up with a decent number of POed HOs she stands a good chance of getting some local big-name legal beagle to take on the class action without laying out a cent of cash up front....
She oughta call the TV stations, too....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
The TV station is a nice touch... The leagle beagle will take most of it and leave her pitenance...
How was you 1st day of school...
tranny shop do you right...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
TV stations ... the local consumer-advocate personality is none other than Clark Howard. He's also on the radio. There is also one other station that does consumer investigative reporting. I will have to keep them in mind.
Bird's eye view coming ...
Ok, let's see if this works (last three are bird's eye):
http://s89156700.onlinehome.us/tmp/a_image0021_sm.jpg
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View Image
What is red stuff? Some sort of sealer?
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Can you get a shot of the caulk bead of / at where the window and the brick come together?
Is the brick window sill sloped at all? In this pic it appears that it hasn't much of one if any...
Without the correct flashing on the bay window's roof line and this window's sill it appears you have water getting in at least 2 points / areas... My hunch is that to do it right it will all have to be all taken out and redone from the git-go... That water damaged / soaked OSB will have to go... You have a potenial mold promblem in the making... When it "bleeds" thru it will be way too late..
Be critical of everything in your home... You may just not discovered other problems that may exist... Suspect everything... You also need a better class / grade of tradesman to do the repairs... I also think this is no small project...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
What is red stuff? Some sort of sealer?
Maybe the sill was so cobbled and discolored with mortar that a touch of red paint was added to kind of...you know....well...just blend it in a bit. ;)be dead on or that quarter inch is going to haunt you
Or spray vynal...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
The 'red stuff' is where the builder's second attempt to solve the mystery water infiltration problem. The suspected that the motar (stuff between the bricks) had failed and needed correction. So, the site-supervisors handyman was put to work. Isn't nice that this 'treatment' wasn't done using matched motar?
The bead may be a little difficult to capture. Let me work on it. I may try a macro capture me inside the room, hands & camera sticking out the windowd and pointed back at me, but at a down angle to get the subject at hand.
Is the sill sloped down and away from the window??? Can you guesstimate the angle???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
If I had to guess, it would not be more than 10º on that slope. I had to line of the frame to be parallel with a brick (to the side of the window, not the sill) that appeared to be horizontal, and then use it as a frame of reference to determine the sill's slope-ness.
Follow Sam T's advice...
You have a battle on your hands...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I'd be interested if the house plans had a detail for the bay window construction, and if so, what it showed. Matt
Sasha,
Just read this whole thread (and looking at your pictures) for the first time.
You have so many things that have not been done or have been done wrong, that I am not going to discuss how to fix your home.
The first thing you should do, IMHO, is buy a 2 drawer file cabinet. You will need it to keep the information in that you will be gathering in the comeing months/years.
Talk to all your neighbors who have clones of your house and start documenting their problems also. Enlist as many of them as possible into your cause.
You will need funds to continue this process, so find some neighbors willing to open a joint account and contribute to the cause. $3k should be enough to get you started on the next 2 steps.
When you have two or more partners, find a lawyer and determine your best strategy and tactics.
Find a good home inspector who is willing to do whatever it takes to discover all defects and omissions in the construction of three homes built by the same builder. Authorise him to remove siding and drywall as needed to do a thourough job.
By this time, your atty should have a plan of action for you to follow.
Maybe Bob Walker will check in here and be able to assist you with a few names regarding a good HI.
Take film pictures of everything, but do not develop them yourself. Take them to a national chain developer. Have them datestamp each negative if your camera doesn't.
The Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime has possibly the greatest collection of home constrution knowledge and experience in the world. Don't be shy about using us in your quest to put this builder out of business.
SamT
Consider a situation of driving rain, running down the window and over the window cill. The slope of the brick cill, whatever it may be, isn't enough to clear the water before it infiltrates that abortion that is the caulked joint.
As far as I can see, there are the following construction faults in just that section of brickwork alone:-
There should be a counter-flashing bedded into the brickwork and dressed over the upturned edge of the metal roof.
Above the flashing level there should be a drip tray and weep-holes through the brickwork.
The brick cill detail has insufficient slope and no flashing -- in fact there would probably be less water infiltration if there were no brick cill at all and a cill on the frame with a drip detail to allow run off down the face of the brickwork.
Where were the Building Inspectors??
IanDG
"The 'red stuff' is where the builder's second attempt to solve the mystery water infiltration problem. The suspected that the motar (stuff between the bricks) had failed and needed correction. So, the site-supervisors handyman was put to work. Isn't nice that this 'treatment' wasn't done using matched motar?"
But that is the basic problem.
Brick walls are not waterproof no matter how well that they are made, PERIOD.
You need to have something behind it to direct the water back out.
Now in most cases probably what happens is that only slight amount of water get in and it slowly wets the whole wall and then slow dries out. But 20-40 years from now the damage is done.
You are LUCKY in that the ceiling of the day is catching the water so it shows up early.
Look at the brick institue web site. I believe that they have experts that will look at these kind of problems.
"The suspected that the motar (stuff between the bricks) had failed and needed correction. "
That alone shows they had no idea what they were doing. mortar is not a waterproofing material. it is only a srtructural bonding material. Tjhe fact they were relying on mortar for water proofing - eghads! That's like depending on a used newspaper for a raincoat in a high wind. Sure, it might keep a little off you, but it is no-way a raincoat.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
may be a little difficult to capture
Shoot it upside down, and correct the attitude afterwards (180° image rotation). You may need/want a bit if fill light if the shadows give too much contrast.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm not sure I like what looks like mismatched coursing right there at the lintel in 0035. The courses above the lintle look to be flush to the lintel, and not the rest of the brick veneer. Usually this only happens with sloppy masons (which a sloppy GC might use). The "cup" created will stand out on a wall at the right light angle (but would be hidden by the roof to the bay in this case).
Hmm, radio newies were all on about Ivan, Sasha may need to invest in some buckets here quick.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If I understood you pictures you had one showing the "outside" of the brick wall underneth the baywindow roof.
I would like to see one of the back side of the bricks, but I you probably can't get one without doing some surgery on the sheathing.
So take one straight up showing the steel and the sheathing behind it.
If that's ammonia base sillycone... You know it's gonna eat holes in that tin..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Might not be that good for the mortar either.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I suspect that you have brick supported on a steel lintel over the bay. There should have either been a membrane installed under the lintel and over the roof or thru the brick flashing should have been installed as the brick was layed. What is propably happening, is, the brick is getting saturated and bypassing the flashing. The water stays in the brick as long as there is another brick below it. When the water gets to the lintel, it drips of onto the drywall below. A large portion of my work these days is retrofitting thru flashing. A mason needs to cut out the brick right above the flashing. Flashing is then installed from the sheathing out to the face of the brick and the brick relaid.
Hi Sasha,
I live in the Suwanee area and have seen a few similiar problems like you are describing. Bay window in a brick front home, drywall ceiling damage in same room as bay window.
I've only read the first twenty posts or so and do not disagree with any of the online advice given. I can however add one thing to this dicussion. Brick step flashing. I am sure your home in Buford is very similiar to others in this general area in that the front elevation of the house shows several different ridge beam elevations and valleys. Your master (if not on main) is probably over garage with questionable bay window near by?? Peak over garage faces front of street regardless of front or side entry. The transition area of home from siding/brick at return area may have bad step flashing on brick which may be partial culprit.
Just my .02 worth
Best Regards
Neil Wilhelm
Neil, actually my master bedroom is over the formal living and dining rooms to the left of the hall & staudy. Its the study that has the bay window. The room over the garage is a bedroom converted to a media room, and the location of the second leak. Let me post some additional pictures. Of course, you are welcome to come over this weekend, or mornings during the week for a first-hand look.
Here are some additional images.
Sasha, where is the second floor leak.. Front or back of the house....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Looking at picture image0013_ssm.jpg, right side of garage, look for the window on that side of the house. Now, directly above that window there is a ceiling register, which is how the water is dripping into the room. In the immediate vacainty of that register in the attic is where the water drips directly down from a gap between two sheets of OBS roof sheathing.
Like the bay window, only when a strong rain striking the front of the house does it rear its ugly head. If it rains on either side or the back of the house neither of the problem areas are a problem.
PS Thanks for the email. Its appreciated.
That has to be either in the ridge or a damaged shingle in the field...
Pif... Get up there and fix the lady's roof....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I go back to suspecting no underlayment to t start with, but see the step flashing? it has at least 25" exposure to each step. Sloppy flashing like that suggests that they were poor on the vally flashing too. But from her description, the leak is coming in higher up than the valeys in from dormer. then, I think to myself, the sidewall flashing is a long way horizontal from the leak ingress, but it might be coming in atop the duct and traveling a ways vbefore leaking through too. but I'd be looking first for a torn shingle someplace and then at all the flashings there. I also hate o see that returned brick wall and the way I'd have to flash it. Apparantly, the roofer hated it too. Ain't that a mess of a job!
( I'll bet Boss would love to comment on those multiple pitches and how they don't compliment each other at all)
overall, the elevation looks kind of nice on the front side, but a little design tweaking would have really made something nice out of this place.
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Piff.. IIRC Sasha said the water entry was in / at a horz OSB seam..It's traveling in from somewhere... Also the water was coming in at the garage end of the house right above the window..
Note the buckled shingles (2nd thru 6th course) and I think there's a chunk missing from the siding... Can't help but wonder what was or wasn't flashed there...
This point must be leaking too...
???No underlayment and a lined up butt or a reused shinlgle with the holes from the nails showing...
View Image
Let's go down to Alanta and look at this place in person...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
That's the part I was talking about that is a design flaw to start with and I would hate to have to ####. notice all the caulk? on the step flashing? Seems to be melting and running. Should not need caulk at that point anyways so it might only be cut pieces of steps with caulk on.
Then note that the top step on the brick at the corner is no more than 2" tall. Can't see behind the corner, but if there is any flashing there, it is definitely no taler than 2" - right where a ton of water cascades down the steep garage roof. Unless there is perfct flashing and underlayment there, I can gaurantee that it is leaking.
If this roofer did perfect flashing, then he would not have wrinkled shingles there. Yes, the siding piece is broke a bit. That concerns me less than the fact that there was a nail being put into it that low to the crease in the flashing. in heavy water or snow that nail will draw water into the house.
Yeah, this corner is a source of leakage, for sure. Saasha knows it too. She had to have suspicions is why she focused on two good shots of the spot with the camera.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
But wait!!! There's more....
You were talking this leak and I was thinking another... I suspect this house faces south west.... The other one is almost at the top and on the south east end....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 9/12/2004 10:21 pm ET by IMERC
Glad that you, Piffin and Rez picked up on that transition above the garage. I've read the latest posts and looked at the photos and like you suspect that the lack of proper flashing behind the siding as well as a very goobered up caulk joint at the brick/siding transition is partly to blame. Based on past experience this is a latex caulk that is easily paintable. Interpret that last statement to mean wrong material for wrong application.
As an aside, some of the 'builders' that I've seen in the ATL area use a piece of 4-8" piece of valley flashing folded in half as a piece of flashing. I'm going to go have a look at my copy of CABO I&II and see if it even addresses this condition. I'll also go have a talk with a roofing supplier I know and see if we can'y help her out.
Best Regards,
Neil Wilhelm
Morning Folks,
Well, I visited some, but not all, of the neighbors. The homeowner with the identical house is showing signs of fresh water damage. I noticed that the steel beam lintill in her home is actually higher than mine (not exposed, but her bay window ceiling is flush with the room's ceiling), and there are new water stains across the entire width of the bay window ceiling.
I asked her if she was aware of any leaks in this area before she moved in and she said no. God, I felt bad for her. Anyway, this morning I will contact the builder for giggles and see what they will, or will not do. I found the home warranty that came with the house and will contact them as well.
I tried calling the county chief building inspector, but I missed him already this morning. I am told I need to call his office between 7 and 7:30AM or 3 and 3:30PM. I called at 8AM and left the message. His name is Kenny Waltrip (if I heard correctly). I explained myself, the situation, and a need for clarification on Gwinnett code for my 'problem'. ALso stated another neighbor with the same house and the same problem. I left my home & cell phone numbers for return call--hopefully this afternoon.
While I only got through half the neighborhood, I was surprised at how many other people had water-related problems in one form or another. But, there does seem to be a general improper water draining or water infiltration theme going on. I didn't realize that building a home and keeping water out was so difficult. I'm thinking of a tent for my next home.
Ok, time to go write up a letter to RWC. They require a certified w/return-receipt notification within 30-days of the incident. Last night I had a neighbor over who is contractor. His jaw was on the floor when he stuck his head into the cavity and couldn't find any underlying structure for that tin roof. Also, we found that the outside bottom corners of the roof where a down-turn 'lip' is located there is a hole formed that is big enough for a pencil to pass-through without touching the metal. Driven-rain as a source of water?
I am suprised that hole isn't an entrance for all the wasps and bees in the county, muddaubbers love those niches.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
It would seem that my home warranty is pretty much worthless:
http://www.hobb.org/rwc.shtml
With the limitations and definitions for excluding a lot of my damage, I doubt my efforts for contacting RWC (http://www.RWCwarranty.com) will amount to anything. I will contact them none the less. Some of the things in this warranty just turn my stomach inside out.
BTW, I did find that one (1) home in my development was a resale. Nothing was disclosed regarding water infiltration or damage. Builder claimed otherwise, but original homeowner denies all. New owner of resold unit is dealing with drywall water damage in two locations, too. Her house cannot be but 2.5-3 years old.
I get the feeling that the original owner of that home fled the scene in order to dump the house quickly. Curiosity may have me go research and see if it was sold for a loss, no-profit, etc. I dread even thinking about fixing the problems, disclosing the fixed problems, and then trying to sell.
And rain is slated for tomorrow and Wednesday!
"And rain is slated for tomorrow and Wednesday!"
"GOOD" - As often as you can get a flash light and start looking up that cavity and also the "outside" (under the roof) of the brick wall and that corner and see where water first comes in and everyplace it comes in.
Also I think that you have attic space over the media room. If it is reasonable to get in check that often also.
Here is another organization with a similar mission. Their web site seems to be better organized, but I don't know if it has any better/different information.
I'm not a lawyer, but I still think that a judge or jury would agree that when you buy a house, you expect it, almost by definition, to be weather tight. In Michigan, when someone sells a house, they have to disclose all problems they know of, in writing, or they are in violation of the law. I think you all could get together and have a class action suit. This builder knowingly did these slimey things and I can't believe a judge or jury wouldn't do something to compensate you.
My house was inspected prior to closing. I paid for that service, but that service did not take into account first-time homebuyer ignorance, inexperience, and the lack of basis for which to draw concern about certain aspects in which to better protect themselves in the long run. I was truly naive and too trusting. Never again.
I just got off the telephone with Kenny Waldrip. I was informed that Gwinnett county has no minimum roofing requirement for bay windows. Furthermore, metal roofs over bay windows are not required to have a support structure. Thus, builders in this county are placing 'decorative' metal roofs over bay windows to not have to provide a tied-in support structure. I only wonder how many people in this county are aware of this little fact.
Kenny Waldrip referred me to Joe Martin in their complaints office, which I tried to reach unsuccessfully many times this morning. While I left a brief voice-message per his recorded instructions, his recorded message also directs to another number that has no one answer and no voice-message callbox set. This leads to a disconnect.
So, it would appear that what the builder's supervisor stated to me is true. In Gwinnett county, Georgia, roofs over bay windows can be metal, and as such not require any support structure to tie it in with the rest of the structure. Also, because there is no structure to repair the home warranty sees nothing to repair.
I'm thinking I moved into the backwoods or something. Is there a banjo playing?
Remember, improperly installed crap, warranty issue.
No counter flashing
Wrong detail at bay drip edge
Leaks at metal seam (maybe manufacturer).
Flashing problems or non-existent flashing at garage roof (when you locate source of leak).Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
What a nightmare! Doesn't the inspector you used have any responsability? Seems like he should be bonded and that there should be some guarantee on his work--otherwise why employ him? Don't have any further good advice. The problem with "getting rid of" the house--you saddle some other poor unsuspecting shmuck with the mess.
Please do not presume that I would begin to hide & run on this house. Repairing the improper conditions would be the norm. I wouldn't even begin to play their game of dumping a problem on someone else's shoulders.
Anyway, I could not reach Joe Martin, per Kenny Waldrip, so I called Kenny back. Had a 15-minute conversation regarding my ignorance and my willingness to learn. Stated I was more concern with educating myself and not beating on the builder. I can only learn from what I see, and without contrary education know right from wrong.
I already stated my intent was to simply know how it should be done right, and make sure not to do something that may have been done wrong and avoid those wrongs during the repair stage. After-all, without knowing the right way how can I know if the roofer that comes in is doing it the right way?
Anyway, the conversation ended with me mentioning things like 'Fine Homebuilding' and 'Clark Howard' in my quest to 'learn', LOL. This seemded to get his attention. While he made no promise to come out, he did asked twice the name of the builder. I informed him it was originally Flornoy Cojstruction, and that principal is not formed his own company called JonesMinear.
Kenny (Waldrip) said he had never spoken to them before, but he's heard their name come up before. At that point Kenny Waldrip asked for my callback number because he was going to call Kenny Minear, the builder. Hmm. I stated repeatedly my concern was learning what was flashing, what forms of flashing should have been previously used, and what should be used in the repair process.
I firmly took to good-homeowner-wishing-to-learn route as opposed to the whick-burning homeowner looking to complain. I do wish to learn, but its hard at times to not react emotionally to some of the things I am learning. Now I am waiting on a callback from Kenny Waldrip.
I've been following this thread, but haven't read every word of every post; here are a few thoughts:
The purpose of any building code is to help the general public be assured that they are purchasing safe, weatherproof, habitable housing; structures that are not weatherproof rot quickly, and then become unsafe. The thing is that most local laws (state?) absolve the municipal building inspector from any responsibility, so you would be unlikely to get much help there, other than possible help determining if what was done on your house was or was not to code. Also, building codes can not and do not cover every possible scenario.
As far as the home inspector you hired, he can not be expected to detect hidden defects in construction unless he inspected the home several times during the home building process, and if it was only a just-prior to move-in inspection, probably couldn't be expected to detect the defect unless water was leaking or evidence of leaks were were present. Sounds like some of the defects were hidden, some were not, but I'm guessing there were no evidence of roof leaks the day you moved in... Most HI contracts have a "not responsible" or "hold harmless" clause, or whatever legal mumbo-jumbo is appropriate. Example: "Absolutely not warranties or guarantees are given or implied for any latent or concealed defects." On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt to contact the guy and see what he has to say - I'd think he would be anxious to provide you with some info to resolve the issue(s) by some means of action not involving himself. Keep in mind though, when you contracted with him you were purchasing 3 or 4 hours of time from someone who has good fundamental knowledge of homes - you were not purchasing a guarantee or exhaustive inspection - it is normally termed as a "cursory" inspection. I believe many HI contracts use that word - "Cursory" - if yours does, look it up. If there were leaks or evidence of leaks present at the time of the inspection, and they were not noted in the report, that is another issue. Some HIs carry something called "Errors and omissions" insurance, but it is very expensive, so many do not.
Being a licensed GC, I really hesitate to say this, but in my state, grievances such as yours are often resolved by the homeowner going to the State GC Licensing Board with their complaint. Obviously, they have a lot of leverage over builders...
Re your insurance company, I'd be hesitant to get them involved, because they would just raise your rates - such that they would get their money back in 3 or 4 years. On the other hand, insurance companies have good attorney's on retainer and I can guarantee that they will not be taken advantage of (by a poor builder).
Good luck... unfortunately, you need it!Matt
Matt, thank you for the time to reply. I do not hold anything against the home inepector that I hired as he surely would have pointed out anything obvious. I do not have issue with hired inspectors and I can see where they would be of great benefit for the money, especially for first-time homebuyers such as myself.
My real concern is really focused on the weak or missing code for the county I live in. I find it hard to believe that nothing more than 'decorative' roofing is sufficient for covering a bay window. That's what the chief building inspector is tellingme, which backs up the builder's claim. How rational people can consider this 'acceptable' for primary living space is beyond my comprehension, but not these people.
I do not think I am going to garner satisfaction from the county inspection board, the builder, etc. and the repairs are looking to be coming from my financial means 100%. I can accept this, but I still need satisfaction. I am like most, and do not like the feeling of being taken advantage of. This is how I feel, but its been done by both the county sinpection board and the builder's entertaining this kind of construction in this county.
So, its time I will ante and solve my problem, but I will seek satisfaction even if its nothing more then to make others in the county aware of this liability. I see the same metal roof applications on new homes costing tw0 or more times what I paid and these are in the next neighborhood. I wasn't born to play consumer advocate (don't really have the time), but this seems like the only way I can get satisfaction back from this builder and this county's idea of minimal building codes.
Primary living space can be covered with decorative roofing with no structural support. That sign in the window reading, "my bay window leaks, does yours?" is looking more and more attractive. I am thining without window treatment in the study I can put the sign in my home and light it up 24x7 for a couple of months its going to take to correct the problem correctly. Maybe I can jokingly place the house on the market just to scare off people from the subdivision, too.
One minor point - I think that you will find that the building code for your county is a statewide implementation. It is only up to your local officials to interpret it and enforce it. So, if you feel the building code is lacking, it needs to be addressed on the state level. Like I alluded to before, building codes deal in generalities, not specifics - ie - there would need to be a section for each type of window, door, etc, etc, and before you know it, the BC would be like an unabridged set of encyclopedias.
The model code that my state (NC) uses is IRC - the International Residential Code. I don't know what model building code is used in Georgia, but normally the way it works is that a state adopts a model building code and then adds their own amendments.
On the other hand I'd say that the whole concept of "decorative roofing" without structural support is utterly ridiculous, and I feel sure that most BIs in my area would figure out some section of our code (IRC) that they would interpret to mean that all roof covering has to have structural support to keep it from moving. Matt
I don't think the codes are lacking it is the lack of enforcement of existing codes . Sasha's house has a CO, the builder will say it is safe and meets all applicable codes.
If other bay windows are being constructed the same way in houses under construction in that development, the BI should red tag the job. The contractor should provide a water tight code compliant structure. The metal roofing can't be decorative unless there is some form of roof under it that can provide protection from the elements.
If other houses are cited for deficiencies by the BI , Sasha may have more leverage with the builder for the ongoing problems.
If the BI is aware of specific problems he should be looking at them, and enforcing the codes.
I agree with all that you said except that I don't think we know exactly what the GA code says. I know IRC requires weep holes and thru flashing at windows... I do not believe that it requires flashing that interfaces with brick to be let-in, but I think it should. A reasonable code official will require all points at the building's exterior to be weather proof though, regardless of the letter of the code. Matt
I didn't mean to suggest that you would dump this house on somebody else--sorry if that's how it sounded--I think I was more responding to someonel elses suggestion to "unload it" or some such. Didn't intend to impugn your character.
I think your approach that you are just looking for answers, trying to be better informed as a consumer/homeowner is a good one.
again, I'm hoping that truth and justice will ultimately triumph here. The eternal optimist, that's me! (Sort of an inside joke, because most people see me as a cynic.)
Should the building inspector overlook openings, penetrations and acceptable building practices ?
Roof and exterior wall penetrations should be made water tight. Joints at roofing should be made water tight by use of approved flashing and counter flashings.
It may not help you but if the BI is aware of these conditions other new homes lacking these details and requirements should not be issued C.O.'s
Evidentally, in this county almost anything is acceptable. The problem in the carbon-copy home of mine was leaking at the 3/4-4/5 completion stage with its bay window only 1-2 months old. Yet the this wasn't disclosed to the buyer, spoke of a fundamental flaw in the application design and or product, etc., and served to question 'other' problems.
The builder seems to forget that while the seam and brick-metal interface may be exhibiting leaks at this moment in time, this could not have been the case on that new identical house with a 1-2 month old metal roof unless it was improperly installed, and or another problem existed which probably is also the case in my house.
I could be mentally reaching for the stars here in trying to understand, but I garner from most of the reactions in this thread something is seriously wrong with this builder and this county's codes & guidelines. I am preparing myself mentally on the repair out of my own pocket, but I need to determine the options as they rank in probably costs vs. effectiveness.
Good luck...
I admire your inegrity...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
It looks like you are making some headway with the BI department.
As I see it you really have 2 goals here.
Of course the main one is to get your house fixed, and fixed correctly.
But a secondary goal is to get the BI to require better detailing.
Now the BI can not (I think in most cases) require the builder go back and fix something like this.
But they do have a lot of leverage on anything new that he builds. And they can start counting the number of nails used and ask him to pull out some nails to prove that they are the correct size, etc, etc.
Now with the limited budget and not knowing there personality I don't know if you will get any results from them about getting your house fixed, but it is a good starting point.
And when they are there I would not worry about if the roof is "strucutral" or "decorative" or the code has anything about bay window roofs.
Keep the questions on PERFOMANCE. Ask what do the codes require about keeping the house weather resistance.
And don't restrict this to the seams. Those might be the worse offender NOW. But the caulk and the lack of through flashing is just as bad.
Ask "dumb" questions. Menion the problem that that you had at the foundation and that you found that weep holes are important because water get behind the wall.
Ask what happens to any water that get behind this wall when it comes to the bay window?
Then show them the picture from the brick institue showing through flashing above windows and ask them why a bay window is different.
Bill, I try to ask question, dump or otherwise. I can usually rest assured on my ignorance to play me the dumb idiot (double-stupid?). I have found Kenny Waldrip to be a little evasive until pushed. Anyway, I went over to see Chris, the builder's supervisor, to get a fax number. Will notify the builder formally, again, about these issues.
Before I walked away, Chris informed me he got a call from Kenny Waldrip's assistant asking him to call the chief building inspector back. Unfortunately, Chris didn't seem to place that on any priority. But I was surprised none the less. I now need to go give some information to the other 3 homeowners with the same floorplan and bay windows, including the one with the exact same problem.
I think the more people in this community that contact's Kenny Waldrip the better. Last night it got way too busy at work and I did not have a chance to compose a letter to RWC to see where they will stand, pre-arbitration. There is no way I can trust RWC enough to enter into arbitration as that's $500 immediate loss for not being confident.
Still, I do need to find reputable roofers and get the ball rolling. Its got a 70% chance of rain tomorrow, 60% Thursday, etc. I suppose the bright side is I have not had to water my lawn this year and its getting noticed for being a nice lawn. Ooo, maybe I could grow grass above that bay window. LOL
Thus, builders in this county are placing 'decorative' metal roofs over bay windows to not have to provide a tied-in support structure. I only wonder how many people in this county are aware of this little fact.
That just made me go pull the Pella & Andersen catalogs out to look up installation guides. (Unless you need really big binders from window companies, you can visit andersen.com or pella.com & view the same things I did.) Generally, some structural support for a bay is required, either over or under. I don't recollect a big structural box under your bay. That kind of suggests that the bay is being held by its jambs (sides) only. That's unlikely to meet the manufacturer's guidelines.
Wher am I going with that? If the bay window lacks support, then its construction (and detailing) are a structural concern, and covered.
Maybe.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I didn't see any tie backs either... Short cuts only...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
any tie backs either... Short cuts
Hmm, does that jsut make it a "temporarily closed future air-to-air heat exchanger"?
Not sure I'd want to be sitting in the window seat . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Kenny Waldrip....
You gotta be kidding! LOL
Surely you had to notice - say it fast - "Can yee wall drip?"
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I know, I know. I even asked him to spell his last name. It was hard to keep from laughing on the phone considering we were talking about water dripping here and there. And its not a good association that his first name is also the first name of the builder.
But a daubber would plug that up...
then the supevisior would call it fixed..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
As promised I have checked my copy of the 1995 'CABO I & II' code and offer the following for your review. Please note that this code should be considered a building MINIMUM and Gwinnett county may have stricter or more lax standards. It is not an uncommon practice for county bldg dept's to modify certain sections of the building code which, in their opinion are deficient or baltant overkill based on the geographic area.
"Section 703.3.1 Horizontal siding shall be lapped a minimum of 1 inch (25mm), or 1/2" (12.7mm) if rabbeted, and shall have the ends caulked, covered with a batten, or sealed and installed over a strip of flashing" P. 84
Follow along to Section 9 which covers roofing.
"Section 903.6 Side wall flashing. Flashing against a vertical side wall shall be by the step flashing method. EXCEPTION: Other methods shall be permitted when installed in accordance with the shingle manufacturers printed instructions." P. 131
Additionally;
"Section 903.7 Other flashing. Flashings against vertical front wall, as well as soil stack, vent pipe and chimney flashing, shall be applied according to asphalt shingle manufacturer's printed instructions." P. 131
Please note that the above is considering the one photo you've shown just above the garage where the brick returns to the siding.
As I'm well aware, this doesn't really help much with the existing leak(s) but.......by not taking any action your problems will only continue to compound. Unfortunately, your insurance company as well as an atty may have to get involved in order for you to remedy the situation. It is an unpleasant one to be in.
Best Regards,
Neil Wilhelm
Edited 9/13/2004 3:55 pm ET by NWILHELM1
Edited 9/13/2004 3:59 pm ET by NWILHELM1
I've been away for a day or so, so maybe this has already been covered - the lack of underlying structure is not always bad, but in this case, it virtually gaurantees that whatever caulk was used ( caulk is only a temporary seal anyways) will fail even faster than nornmally, because the metal roof will expand and contract more, adding thermal stress to the caulk joint.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What's the possibility that water entering at that point is getting to the bay window???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
A supervisor for the builder just informed me that the tin/metal roof over the bay window is not structural but decorative, and according to Gwinnett county building code the tin/metal roof over the bay window is not required to have a support structure underneath. Hence, there is no 'structure' over the bay window.Additionally, he said he would not use clear silicone sealant in that it has only a one-year usefulness, but instead he would use the black material product that is used in step-flashing. I then informed him I wasn't the one that put the clear silicone on there, but rather the builder did.Hose-tested water infiltration shows the seems in the tin/metal have failed and are leaking. This seem-failure is at both the roof-edge and in the middle of the seem. It took only a couple (yes, two) of minutes before water was detected coming into the bay window roof cavity.
This is not covered by the builder, nor through the RWC warranty, etc. So, with no coverage on the 'decorative' element (i.e. the tin/metal roof), no underlying sub-roof is in place, and rain is free to drop directly onto the drywall. At this point I am thinking of removing the bay window altogether, and then selling this house.
Did the supervisor tell you where this decorative element came from? If from the bay window manu., perhaps you could contact them and find the advised method of install. If wrong, you still have a logical grievance against the builder. Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hey Calvin. I did not think about this aspect. From the pictures I looked at it looks like its hand-crafted in place. There are so few homes in this subdivision that have bay windows I have not be given the opportunity to witness one being installed.
Here's the result of a couple minute google. A natl co. makes roofs (copper) nail on almost exactly like you have. Here's the install pdf. that shows counter flashing over the cheap little tab (flange) that in your case is just nailed on and caulked. That in itself looks like a builder warranty issue and a place you'll have trouble with down the road as soon as that copper goes through a couple seasonal changes.................you do have seasons down there don't you?
http://www.proofroof.com/installation.php
best of luck.
ps, these instructions are pretty rudimentary if not a little on the slam bam thank you ma'am side. If only greencu would stop by here, he'd give you bible and verse on this type of install.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 9/13/2004 1:30 pm ET by calvin
A supervisor for the builder just informed me that the tin/metal roof over the bay window is not structural but decorative...
That is too difficult to accept.. By any stretch of the imagination..
If it is only "ornimental / decroative" than there should be a "real" completely functional roof under it..
Removing the bay window is an option but I woud make the builder buy back this house and throw in some "extra" for your anxiety...
This boy is practiced at dodging the bullet though, so it would be a fight...
Sorry for missing / not considering the seams..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I agree--I would argue that decorative/ornamental elements shouldn't be the only thing standing between you and the weather! Ornaments go on top of structural elements, and should not be there by their lonesome!
"Hose-tested water infiltration shows the seems in the tin/metal have failed and are leaking. This seem-failure is at both the roof-edge and in the middle of the seem. It took only a couple (yes, two) of minutes before water was detected coming into the bay window roof cavity."
That does not mean that is is the only place it is getting in.
"This is not covered by the builder, nor through the RWC warranty, etc. So, with no coverage on the 'decorative' element (i.e. the tin/metal roof),"
BULL HOCKY!!!!
That is not a "decorative element". Yes, it has decorative purposes and not it does not support anything else.
But the same can be said of the bricks and the shingles. Let see doors and window, gutters, and probably many other critical parts of the house.
It does serve as a critical element and that is water control. How I would have to read the whole code book, but I am sure that this covered in one way or another. But probably not in a clear simple matter. But possible something like "a material and installation suitable for the desired purpose".
I don't know who you talked to in the building inspectors office, but here is head of the office.
Gwinnett County
Gwinnett Co. Planning/Development Dept.
Tele: 678-518-6000
Fax: 770-822-7513
Pat Larson, Administrator
Now I am not clear of how building codes are handled in GA, but it appears that state has something to do with them. Through the department of Comunity Afairs
http://www.dca.state.ga.us/planning/index.html
And here are two "building code consultants"
Holt, H. Tate Building Codes Consultant (404) 679-3109 344 [email protected] Construction Codes
Koch, Walter E. Building Codes Consultant (404) 679-4845 388B [email protected] Construction Codes
Bill & Calvin, thank you for that information. It appears to be useful. Bill, where did you dig up those names for Building Codes Consultants? I will be very interested in their services if I cannot garner the attention of Kenny Waltrip (sp), ht econtact person for 1 & 2 family residential buildings withi the Gwinnett Planning & Development department.
I've got three large buckets sitting out under the bay window. I will have tomorrow and Wednesday off (made arrangements). But I must now get ready for work.
Here;
http://www.dca.state.ga.us/stafflist/search.asp
It is under Publications.
I went through the Job Title and found that one.
They are appear to be state employees and my guess is that they "consult" with the local offices officials about code issues.
I have asked Bob Walker to look at this thread. He might be able to help you find a private inspector.
That is not a "decorative element"
Ooh, yeah, wouldn't it only be "decorative" if there were a fully waterproof roof (with proper drainange) on the bay window?
Somehow, that wooden chair next to the judge's would be a lot less comfortable--"ah, er, yeah, we jus' put a tin roof on t' decoarte the hole over the fancy winder in the nice lady's house; but we silly coned it, gud, ya'hear?"Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
leaving aside for the moment the codews issues and whether or where they mioght apply here, as this becomes a legal issue, there is the legal principle of an implied warranrtee - whether written or not.
The fact that this is a "roof" by virtue of design and location, means that it is implied that its purpose is to keep water out of the interior of the house. She has been sold a product that fails to preform to its implied purpose for existence. It haS FAILED BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER INSTALLED ACCORDING TO STANDARD PRACTICES IM PLACE THROUGHOUT THIS COUNTRY.
Sorry - didn't mean to holler atcha, but I happened to hit that caps key in an appropriate place, so I'll leave it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I am strongly beginning to think that this so-called roof over the bay window is nothing more than aluminum-foil in disguise.
It looks like you have the Hampton.
http://www.jonesandminear.com/hamptonivycreek.htm
Interesting, the floor plan does not show the bay window, but it is in there picture. I wonder if it was an option?
Bill, that's my house! There are only two like, mine and one in a cul de sac, but mine has that brick. The Hampton was available in three elevations, and the porch elevation was the most expensive and included the bay window. Also notice that the floor plan is mirror reversed.
BTW, that website is dated as none of the floorplans on there are available anymore. I find it a hypocracy how they talk about they have 20-years of home building experience and their quality. First, Kenny Minear ran Flournoy (or Flornoy) construction, a subsidiary of Flournoy Banking/Investment out of Columbus, Georgia. Essentially, I think he was someone else's employee until a couple of years ago.
Twenty years of this kind of quality may mean a few serious concerns out there in addition to mine. Ivy Creek (now the Estates at Ivy Creek) is five years old and just finishing up phase one of three.
How long have they been in business and can you give me any idea of how many house that they have built.
I did a google under both names along with "defective", "leaks", and "mold".
Did not get a single hit.
Try that with many builders and you will get pages and pages and pages of complaints.
So, based on that little fact, it appears that they might be building basically fair house except for not know how to do brick.
I do not know how long the original Flornoy Construction was in place. The current entity only has four developments that I know of and been operating as JonesMinear for a couple of years. They really do a poor job in terms of advertising their communities, and have change real estate agencies several times since I bought from them.
The buyer's agent I used has been in the business for a while, and couldn't believe how looney the real estate agents for the builder (builder's agent) was on some of the most basic aspects relating to the buying process. It seemed that Flornoy focused on agents that were older, less confident, etc. that they could direct with resistence.
The ineffective advertising is what is hurting the community I live in. I stumbled upon it. I have seen adjacent communities begin after mine and completely build-out and sell all homes in as little as 24-months. Its now been +5 years for my community and they are 1/3 the way through the development. Those other developments in the neighborhood offer both less expensive and more expensive homes, but sell quickly.
They are on their third site-supervisor since I've been here. Maybe gone through 3-4 different framing subs, unknown amount of painters and roofers, drywallers, etc. The only sub still operating is CDL plumbing, and they have proactively addressed to successful conclusions any issue I have ever had, albeit minor in nature.
You could say that the complete list of subs as changed at least three times in the past four years. This does not seem like a builder/developer that has had much of a chance to find and keep a setup of quality subs. Maybe its them that is the problem in long-term subcontractor relationships. I truly do not know.
It's just a piece of metal to divert the run off into the gutter...
you can see it pic 13...
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Or that's a joint in the down spout...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!