Replies

1. 
   Sphere | Aug 06, 2004 11:46pm | #1

   got good insurance? when ya FU thier patio..they'll likely sue.

   make the lawyer do it.

    

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

2. 
   DANL | Aug 06, 2004 11:49pm | #2

   Just out of idle curiousity--how long has this condition been in effect? I hope less than seven years? You've checked with a lawyer to make sure that their deck is on your property? (Have a survey too?) (The reason I ask how long is that if it's been seven years or more, they may have the right to kepp it there--something called "adverse possession.") (May be different in your state or locality, whatever.)

   Seems like once you cut through the concrete slab with the saw, you can bust and pry out the concrete block with sledge hammer and wrecking bar. Aren't the neighbors going to respond to this rather negatively though? They don't have lots of guns ar big dogs do they? Not worth risking your life--take them to court before proceeding! IMO ;-)

1. 
   FastEddie1 | Aug 07, 2004 12:36am | #4

   I think, if it has been in place for seven years without the encroached HO saying anything, then the encroacher actually can take ownership of that piece of property ... not the whole lot, just the part covered by his slab.  Adverse possession I think it's called.

   JoJo ... ya gots to get the words right boy ... it's called concrete ... cement is one of the components of concrete.  And I agree that if you saw cut as deep as the blade will go, there's a good chance you'll cut all the way through the slab, and then you can bust apart the blocks.  Most patio slabs are only 3-4 inches thick.

   And I also agree that you better have all your ducks in a row before you do the first lick of work.  it would be worth the expense to hire a professional land surveyor to check the property line, and have him draw a line across the slab where the prop line is.  You might also check with the city to see what the setback requirement is for slabs ... might be 5 ft, might be zero, and also see if they show a building permit filed when the work was done.

   Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

2. 
   UncleDunc | Aug 07, 2004 05:57am | #12

   Don't panic! Adverse possession is certainly worth guarding against, but possession for seven years is only one of the necessary conditions for gaining title to a piece of property by adverse possession. Some of the other conditions are that the possession has to be actually adverse, continuous, open and notorious (I don't remember if that's one condition or two), and under claim of right. Do see a lawyer, since laws vary from state to state.

1. 
   FastEddie1 | Aug 07, 2004 07:02am | #13

   You're right that there are several factors.  I experienced this in the mid 80's when I worked for a bank.  We had a branch in a small town ... the laundromat next door built a fence 3-4 feet onto our side in the back parking lot.  My predecessors didn't notice it.  When I discovered it one day, the ball started rolling, and the result was that we lost that piece of property.  The laundromat did not intend to encroach, but it happened, and they decided to acquire the land when the problem was realized.

   Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

3. 
   RichColumbus | Aug 07, 2004 12:31am | #3

   C-4 works well !!

   I agree... let the lawyers take it out.  To do otherwise opens you to all kinds of issues.

   You might also consider contacting the Code Enforcement people in your town.  If you have a code that addresses this.. they will be forced to remove it by the city.

4. 
   Lenny | Aug 07, 2004 12:50am | #5

   Be careful what you wish for.  Do you really need that foot of space???  Get a lawyer, get a lawyer, get a lawyer...he's probably got one already.

   A lawyer could advise on how to ward off adverse possesion...I suspect a cert letter to the neighbor putting him and the registry of deeds on notice that he has an encroachment.

   Several years ago I got into a urinating contest over 12 to 18" of property and a fence line.  $3000 later for the surveyor/judge/lawyer things were settled then 3 months later the SOB moved.  New neighbors were from heaven (or the south). Down went the fences, out came the beer.

   Saw it off yourself and feel good for a couple of weeks, then hope you don't get hauled into court...the judge will not like an overt act without going thru the justice system.

   You will never win the battle against someone whose mission it to "be right."

5. 
   dieselpig | Aug 07, 2004 01:15am | #6

   JoJo,

     Take what you want from this, but.....how important is this space to you?  It could very well turn out to be the most expensive piece of property you'll ever buy in your life.  This whole thing kinda smells bad.  Like maybe you're getting into it with your neighbor and this is just the next "one-upping" in a long string of 'em.

   What's his retaliation going to be for this?  Will it be worth it?

   Maybe you could just let it go. 

6. 
   DougU | Aug 07, 2004 01:21am | #7

   Dont take matters into your own hands, take em to court!  

1. 
   Sphere | Aug 07, 2004 03:34am | #8

   remember "softfurn"?  I think it was her.."neighbor from hell"?  maybe it's her in disguise..or him..here we go again. 

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

1. 
   DougU | Aug 07, 2004 03:53am | #9

   OH NO!!!

7. 
   maverick | Aug 07, 2004 05:13am | #10

   In my last house I had 125 feet of frontage. It did'nt look like it though so I pulled a tape from a pin that was on one corner of the property.

   My neighbor was outside when I did it so he came over to see what I was doing. Sure enough his driveway was about 6 feet over the line. He looked a little worried so I just smiled and said "I won't tell anybody if you dont".

   That was the end of it and he was a good neighbor for 9 years. I could have been an A-hole and he could have done the same for all those years.

8. 
   CloudHidden | Aug 07, 2004 05:24am | #11

   Think you'll be able to cut it without chipping or cracking even the slightest part that is legitimately theirs? And what'll you think results if that happens?

9. 
   Mongo | Aug 07, 2004 07:08am | #14

   See your code compliance officer before you proceed.

   They might not only be on your property, but they might have violated a setback. Around here it's 10' from the property line for hardscaping like patios, etc.

   You can also find out if the patio was installed under a building permit.

   Much of what will follow depends on how long the slab has been in place. A few months and you have legal cause. A few years and you may not.

   Before you even attempt to cut it, you'd better make sure you know smack dab where the property line falls.

   As other have mentioned, go by the book on this one, for if you freelance it and cut the slab while they're at work, the hammer could instead fall on you.

10. 
    JeffBuck | Aug 07, 2004 09:54am | #15

    the concrete over the blocks can't be any more than 3 " deep ...

    so run that saw thru ...

    cut her off ...

    then just dig the rest of the cut offs out ...

    throw it all across the "fence" line ...

    damn poachers ....

    Jeff

    Buck Construction, llc   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

1. 
   cardiaceagle | Aug 07, 2004 10:07am | #16

   I'm with Buck.......unless they call a lawyer....

   ....then I'm gone.....

11. 
    JoeJoyce | Aug 07, 2004 06:45pm | #17

    Well, I appreciate all the advice.  Some background: The patio has been there for many years.  I became apparent that they were encroaching when we had a survey done.  Their neighborly response was, "We ain't doin' nothin' about it".  They claim they sold us the square footage of the lot, not the exact boundaries!  For me it is the principle of the thing.  If I had signed a P&S that stated nothing was encroaching and I was wrong (like them), I would fix it. But as most people have said, is it worth it? We certainly would win a legal contest.   Maybe I'll just keep repeating what someone recently said, "Strength and wisdom are not opposing values."  Thanks! you all were great with your responses.

1. 
   m2akita | Aug 07, 2004 07:27pm | #18

   Besides encroaching on your property 14", is there anything in your building codes about setback??  If you go the legal route your neighbors may have to remove more than just what is on your property.

   Good luck and here's wishing for better neighbors.

   m2akita

2. 
   Chae_An | Aug 07, 2004 07:33pm | #19

   This isn't exactly a legal solution, but...

   Send'em a bill every month for rent, maybe a buck or two, or maybe more.  And some late fees and penalties and stuff when they don't pay.  If nothing else, getting the bill every month lets them know you aren't just gonna roll over and forget about it.  It might piss'em off but what are they gonna do?  You haven't done anything wrong.  Since they're right next door, you won't even have to waste a stamp.  And at one point, the total will add up to something substantial.  Admittedly, the total amount would be more or less unenforceable, but it would serve as notice and paper trail if later on, something legal happens. 

   At any rate, you should consult a lawyer.  They're trespassing on your property.  No jurisdiction I know of sells property by square footage.  In fact, most listings take great pain to either exclude square footage info or add a disclaimer about square footage or acreage.  Legal description of property -- which are generally fairly uniform across the land -- is by metes and bounds.  Some of the old ones were notoriously ... fluid, referencing trees and brooks that don't always stick around.  But they should have iron pins and other means to lay out exactly the boundaries.

3. 
   BillHartmann | Aug 08, 2004 09:18pm | #20

   " They claim they sold us the square footage of the lot, not the exact boundaries!"

   If I understand this they sold you this property that already have this bit of patio on it when you bought it from the next door neighbors and not from some 3rd party.

   If this is correct and there is not easment or other wording in the deed then there is no encroachment.

   They sold you the "land" and all "improvements there on". That bit of patio is yours and you can do with it what you want.

   " They claim they sold us the square footage of the lot, not the exact boundaries!"

   Is that what the deed says. Most say the exact oposite. They will either have a decription that states starting at such and such a point then 85 degrees, 20.23 mintues east for 127.32 ft then .... or lot 34, of Johns addtion as recorded in plate book 67m paget 1254 which also give the exact boundries.

   And then it might have 0.767 acres MORE OR LESS.