I will be installing some crown molding for the first time and need a little explanation of technique. I’ve read that when cutting the molding with a chop saw it is held against the fench ceiling side down. It is not obvious to me why it must be done in this manner. Can someone please explain why cutting it right side up wouldn’t work? It seems as though it would only affect which way the saw blade has to be set to 45 degrees (left or right). I’ve already managed to cut a couple of test pieces wrong (using the top down approach). Thanks for the help.
Woodless
Replies
The method is to replicate the wall as the fence, and cieling as the table. So in essence you are cutting upside down and backwards.
Much easier to demonstrate than describe.
Some folks swear by cutting on the flat and setting the saws angles to the compound cuts..I rely on the "OLD" way..as I described.
Just remember upside down and backwards..left is right, right is left..and all will be fine.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Pretty good explanation of a topic that is a PIA to explain, IMO. I try to explain it to my guys (framers) but in the end I usually just shut up and start making some cuts and then show them what's going on. Much easier. When trimming rakes, cutting on the flat is often just more math than it's worth doing. Upside down and backwards up against the fence is where it's at. Unless of course it's at a roof peak... and then you've got an inside out backwards corner so you need to....... LOL......View Image
Oh hey, I have done some real creative cutting with a cordless circ, up on a ladder..fixing that hunk o crown that was originally all caulk..LOL
Who needs a miter-saw.?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
LOL... yeah I've seen plenty of that too. From the ground you'd never know that 'tight miter' was a fistful of Alex Plus professionally tooled with the corner of a speed square. LOL......View Image
SHHHHHH!!! Thats secret!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Practice with short pcs 'til you have one that fits... then mark all over it with notes indicating its position on the saw and save it as a reference.
Do the same for the other side.
Practice scarf joints (field 45's) and make a reference. THESE will allow you to make those all important "error extensions".
Start with the longest run, then the next and next. If you make an error, you can still use the piece for the next shorter run.
Have fun and understand that errors happen.
Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
The mark for your measurements will normally be made on the side of the crown that touches the wall, not the ceiling. Cutting the crown upside down puts your pencil mark at the top and makes it easier to cut to your mark without having to dip the sawblade into the material multiple times.
Try cutting an outside corner piece to the short point both ways, and you will see what I mean.
Thanks, I appreciate all of the help.
Woodless
I like to cut crown laying flat, that is, with the crown laying flat. It’s inherently more accurate, not to mention easier, to lay a long piece of crown flat on your cut station than it is to hold it 90 degrees vertical against a relatively short and low fence.
All you need to know to get started is a couple of sets of compound angles that work for a perfect 90deree corner.
For crown that beds at 38degrees cut a 33.9 bevel and a 31.6 miter.
If it beds at 45derees cut a 30 bevel and a 35.3 miter.
The material beds more consistently time after time laying flat, so small adjustments work out better.
Couldn't agree more.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I use the upside down and backwards "bedded" method and get great results consistently.This hood had over 50 pieces that fit perfectly, the first time, everytime.I have and use a couple of crown cutting jigs that make my method fast, easy and very accurate.
That hood is impressive! I've just started doing some crown work with bevel and miters with the crown flat and thought I did a good job, but that hood looks like a headache waiting to happen.
Thanks. I enjoy working with crown molding. Here is another layered crown picture. The kind folks here at BT helped me figure out the rope molding. A reminder that no matter what your skill level, there is still more to learn. This was also done "upside down and backwards:
Since I'm struggling with a simple one piece crown molding that hood just blows me away, it is a beautiful job.
WoodLess
Thank you.You know, of course, that my first crown molding job, twenty years ago, was very, very ugly.I apologize for getting carried away with my posts. Kinda hijacked the thread and got too boastful. I overreacted to a critique of the method of crown cutting I prefer...it obviously does not work for everyone.The jig might be what allows me to get consistently good results, but one crown job may not be worth fashioning a jig for.Wishing you good success,Basswood
Basswood, Your work was worth seeing. What has been missed is the chance to tell him to buy two saws, need one for each method of cutting right? He can field test his preferred method that way and gets the new saw out of the deal.
;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks,I did think it was worthwhile to show the bedded method can produce crisp results, since that had been brought into question.I suppose my claims of accurate cutting sound outlandish, but that is why I get so much crown work. I really have cut and installed over 50 pieces of built up crown in an afternoon with airtight joints and had to recut only two pieces...the two returns to the out of plumb walls.Of course, it appears that I have also installed 500 l.f. of crown upsidedown in the very recent past (the customer did want it that way, but did not know the classical convention for that profile). 8>{If you did not catch it, here is the upsidedown crown:And on the saws, yes the OP should buy another saw!
beautiful job, but it would drive me crazy to look at that everyday!
I learned to cut crown flat, then I decided all of my crown, painted or not, needed to be perfect, so I went to the old school method. It is more natural to me to cut a 44 degree angle, or a 44.5 or a 45.5 etc., than to rack my brain trying to remember if I should have adjusted the angle or the bevel or both , how much angle , how much bevel , wait, where was I?????????????
Edited 1/8/2008 10:11 pm ET by zachariah
I'll try again with that oversized pic.
Nice. Is that your design work too?Steve
No, I work mainly for one architect , he's really got an eye for it I am yet to do anything for him I don't like, and no he's not reading this ;-)
more pics.
Zach,I like that Pergola. I've got to design something similar to that for two different upcoming projects. I've also done a mantle very similar to that one, but can't get a picture in just now...off to bed.Steve
the mantle was a feild redesign that was mine, but it's all fun!! Good night.
Your hood job looks great, basswood, and upright bedding is the best way to tackle the odd angle that you had on the lower part. The thing is... on a house like that I would expect to see some six to eight inch crown. What do you do then?
In the interest of full disclosure, I learned to cut crown on the flat after being flumoxed by the upright method, but a good trim guy should be able to do both.
My Delta will cut up to 7-3/4" crown bedded, believe it or not. That saw is really something...to bad it seems to be discontinued (apparently a casualty of the B&D ownership--it competed with the Dewalt). I have yet to run into a crown I can't cut "in position" with my Delta.I can cut crown either way, but I don't have to resort to messing with the bevel setting very often.For me, the bedding method is very fast and accurate.
I have an old 14" Makita mitre saw, now you have me wondering just how tall a piece that will cut with the bedded method. Have to drag it into the shop some day and see.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"not to mention easier, to lay a long piece of crown flat on your cut station than it is to hold it 90 degrees vertical against a relatively short and low fence."
your going to start the saws with big fences argument from the guys with the big Dewalts, lol. View Image View Image
The big Dewalts and even the 15" Hitachi don't have the cutting capacity of my Delta, but I still cut most crown on my 10" Hitachi slider and it has a notoriously small fence...perhaps that is why I got into aux. fences and jigs.
yeah it not something I debate. But it always comes up. View Image View Image
Huplescat
I agree with you, cut it flat, much more accurate.
Doug
I will do it both ways, depending on the situation. Flat works well if you have a crown profile with one of the standard spring angles and the corners are square, which isn't very often if you are working on older houses.Steve
If your really interested in doing right the first time w/o a lot of trial and error screwing around go to Gary Katz's web site and pay the $49 bucks for his video.
After watching and trying his techniques youll be able to do your project and then charge to do somebody elses project thereby paying for the videos.
They really are excellent training videos.
Dan
http://www.garymkatz.com/publications_dvds.html
If you are cutting it upside down it helps to use crown stops on your saw to position it correctly.
Jeff
question to all:
A: what is the consensous here for coped inside corners vs mitered. ( on long pieces)
B: if coping, prefered method of coping; coping saw, collins coping foot on jig saw, or the grinder method seen on BT in the past.
View Image View Image
Edited 1/8/2008 7:52 pm by alrightythen
If it is a 90 its coped, a bunch over or under ( a bunch is 15 degrees) it mightget mitered.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Edited 1/8/2008 7:17 pm ET by Sphere
how do you like to cope. coping saw, collins coping foot on jig saw, or grinder method? View Image View Image
cope what ever can be coped.
Use a Bosch inline jig saw.
inline jigsaw?
View Image View Image
Discontinued now I think. It's like a jigsaw on a stick. Fits my hands well, but I have a large grip, but not monstrous. Model number is 4050.
I still use a coping saw, just too stubborn to change.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
slow poke
Cope. Sometimes mitres on 135 degrees, depending on the profile. If I can cope wider without too much hassle I will.I like the collins foot. But a lot depends on the profile. I do a lot of non-standard crowns on greek revivals. Often I will rough out with the jig saw and clean up with coping saw, knife, files, rasps. Whatever it takes.Steve
Edited 1/8/2008 8:28 pm by mmoogie
collins makes it look so easy, so I bought the foot. spent a few attempts of frustration and put it away.
I think the piece I was trying to cope was too complex, or perhaps I just needed to give it some more time.
Gary made it look so effortless at the show. View Image View Image
Said the hare to the tortise...LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Coping is best ... plus paying attention to which runs get coped end vs. butt end from the standpoint of the primary views of the room (ie layout and cope direction).
Also ... back blocking crown and using some trim screws so it doesn't pull away from the ceiling.
Jeff
Edited 1/8/2008 10:02 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
I like using blocking, but have been chastised for bothering with it.
Using screws seems pretty extreme to me though. View Image View Image
I've taken to back blocking and screws too. Every winter for the last ten years as I watch the 4 5/8 crown at the top of my kitchen cabinets pull away from the ceiling by as much as 1/4 inch, I remember precisely why. Woodstoves are hell on woodwork.Steve
Edited 1/8/2008 10:15 pm by mmoogie
You would prefer it stays with the ceiling and pull away from the cabs?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Actually, I haven't really solved the dilemma. I've been trying to build slip-joints into things lately to accommodate the movement. but sometimes you just can't. I've not had to do interior crowns on cabinets in a few years. The last last time it did it, I did indeed fasten to the ceiling rather than the cabinets, But it was a crown with a flat back. For some reason I've been using this crown a lot the last few years. But most of the crown I've been doing for a while has been outdoors
View Image
Steve
I have no solution for you .
Seems fastening to the ceiling and letting it float off the cabs is the only way it can work if you have that much movement.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Steve,I got to used a similar crown on one of my projects. I like the large cove.BTW I cope with a grinder most of the time.
Basswood,Very nice. Great craftsmanship!Pressure is always lower for me because it's nearly always for paint in Greek Revival houses. I really admire people who make it so perfect without the fallback of Bondo. So where is it fastened on this one? Wall, ceiling or both? Any problems with movement? How do you deal with movent at the ceiling in general?Steve
Here's another example of that same crown, on the day it was installed 3 years ago, and five minutes ago, painted and without a drop of caulk at the ceiling line, or on any other part of the whole thing, and after the woodsove has been baking it for a month. Note the tapered shim between the crown and the ceiling. Love my Festo saw...
View Image
View Image
Steve
That's really nice work ;o)Jeff
Thanks Jeff.
Extreme? Not when you've seen as much crown pulling away at the ceiling line as I have. Trim head screws ... even one at 48" o.c. Gun nails seem to 'release' a bit with crown over time.
Jeff
wow...ok guess I'll take yer word for it. View Image View Image
Mitered if at all possible. If I am forced to cope , coping saw. (havenn't had the opportunity to try out the RAG with sanding discs.)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Coped with grinderTFB (Bill)
It will make more sense after you screwed up a few pieces. I have always had a problem with angles. Especially compound angles. Having a set method helps. Not all angles are 45 degrees. I once had to put crown mould on an Octagonal Structure, 8 feet in Diameter. Took me all day and about 40 feet of waste before I got it right.
Like a said, having a set method helps.
Dave
I used to have a ? chart or something that listed all the ? sine,cosine,tangent angles for crown. Since the last time I've looked at it was like a computer and 2 reformats ago.
So the question is does any body remember this? It was provided by one of the experts on the site. Ring any bells? For some reason I'm thinking from N.J. not sure.
And if so is it still around? available ?.
http://www.josephfusco.org/
here.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Edited 1/13/2008 2:30 pm ET by Sphere
YepThat's what I was looking for. I can tell just by that name.
Thanks.
See my edit, we cross posted.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Yea that's the page. Kinda funky to access that chart on the bottom? All I'm able to display is like one line of it at a time so I'm tryn to ? F with the puter.
Does that chat display larger for you?
chart
Edited 1/13/2008 2:41 pm by ClaysWorld
I didn't open the site, just tracked it down for ya.
I have link on the other puter, not this one. I'll visit there soon and see wassup..but I never use that method of cutting..and if I decided to, I'd cut a hunk as my usual way and set the saw to what I just cut..LOL I hate remembering numbers ...besides for standard crown, most saws have a mark there already.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Yea and as you can see not only I can't remember the #s I can't find the chart with out substantial help.
I was originally using this for on the flat on my original 8 1/4" saw buck.
I always wanted them to come out with the same in a 10 or 12" and then the world passed them by.
If this helps anybody with the display problem I had.
Go to the site http://www.josephfusco.org/Articles/Crown_Moulding/CrownChart.html
I'm using IE open site go to view and then clk full screen. It's the only way I could display the scrollable chart.