I have always wondered the answer to this because it has been bugging me for some tome and I never remember to just ask on this forum.
I understand the ease of cutting out around an electrical box with the sheet of drywall in place. No guess work, just locate the center of the box and then find the edges from there. The process seems like it would be even easier if one had a rotozip or any spiral saw for cutting drywall.
My question: If I go and leave all of my boxes 1/2″ (or whatever) proud of the rough framing so that the boxes will have their faces flush with the surface of the drywall, how can I hang my sheet of dw with all those boxes in the way? It seems like a catch 22 to me.
Please could someone tell me how it’s done commonly. I have never watched how they do it.
Also, If I go and plunge a spiral saw into the boxes after the dw is in place and go around with this thing slicing around all of my boxes wouldn’t there be a good chance, (or at least enough of a chance to make it dangerous) that I may knick the insulation off a wire.
I suppose you could jsut ensure that you push all the cables in the boxes well and set the depth of the rotozip to just sllightly deeper that dw thickness. But Jeesh
Edited 12/6/2005 1:56 pm ET by xosder11
Replies
True I'm impatient, But it always seems like if no one responds in the first 5 min. these things are gone forever
Take your measurements to find the center of the box, put the sheet of drywall over and fasten the edges of the sheet staying away from the box area so the nails or screws don't draw the sheet in and break the drywall. Take your roto - zip plunge into the box area run over till you locate the side of the box then lift slightly to get the bit to the outside edge of the box and follow carefully around the ouside of the box. The pc. will fall out and you can finish fastening the sheet. Voila!!
That's kinda what I hed figured. Thanks for the help
I am a big fan of cutting boxes in after (during actually) the drywall install. I use a Porter cable cut out tool - I like the square design of the "foot" better than the round Roto-Zip foot.
How I do it:
1) Before hanging any drywall that will cover a box: the wires in the boxes should be rolled up snug and tucked all the way to the back of the boxes. Do all of the boxes in the room before you even touch any drywall - if they're all done, you can't forget during the process.
2) Measure some coordinates from the floor, ceiling, edge of sheet above the box, corner, whatever so you can locate the approximate center of the box after is covered. Adjust the cutting depth so you are cutting the drywall + ~1/2". Wiring tucked in properly + proper depth adjustment = no wires nicked.
3) Hang the drywall loosely do not have any fasteners within 2' of the box (s) that you are covering - I like to just tack the top of the sheet - make the cut outs - fasten the drywall. If you fasten too close to the box before cutting ,the sheet will break during the cutting operation due to excess tension in the sheet.
4) Plot from your measurements to locate the center of the box(s) - Mark the sheet. I use only 1/8" diameter GUIDEPOINT bits (Rotozip #GP10, is the model for a 10 pack)- spiral cutting bit that has a non-cutting tip. Plunge through the sheet and cut out a small hole - 3/4" or so in diameter; withdraw the tool and poke your finger into the hole - you should be feeling wire or box - no wire? you blew it on the plotting / marking - regroup as necessary.
5) Once you are certain you are cutting inside of the box, cut your way to any edge of the box ( I like the 3 o'clock position; withdraw the tool slightly and hop the bit over the edge of the box - maintain a light pressure toward the center of the box and cut around the outside in a counter-clockwise direction ( this helps the guidepoint follow the outside of the box - clockwise cutting path will tend to make the bit wander away from the box). Note: if cutting out a door or window opening you will want to use a 1/4" guidepoint bit and a clockwise cutting direction. The clockwise path will make the bit hug the inside of the opening.
6) You will need to maintain a bit of knee/hand pressure on the sheet to hold it in place against the box while cutting. Be careful on the pressure toward the end of the cut - too much pressure and the sheet will break creating the classic "blow out".
7) Once the cut is complete - GENTLY press the sheet to seat it against the studs - no fit? trim a bit to remove interference. Done correctly you will have a perfect fit with a 1/8" or less gap around the box which will require no filling or extra finishing.
8) Fasten the sheet permanently.
This requires a little finesse, but not much. Plastic boxes can be very sucessfully cut with the most common problem being applying too much "centering" pressure and burning through the box edge. Sharp bits will greatly enhance your ability to feel the box edge.
I see some guys use the standard point bits ( no guidepoint, little cheaper), no foot on the tool - some have the feel and control to do it this way - I know that I do not. I suggest you try the guidepoints at least the first time you use these tools.
Luck!
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Great response. I could picture myself going through every step of the process. Now I know... and knowing's half the battle!
You are welcome.
I went and watched the video and it reminded me of one small detail I omitted in my original post.
On plastic boxes there are 2 little nubs on the side which serve as a set-back gauge for the electricians - I cut those nubs off with a utility knife at the same time I am rolling and tucking in the wires. The nubs have a tendency to throw me off course with the zip tool.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sarp pencil or good light.
Wonderful tutorial, very well written.
Shows you have a lot of experience.
6) You will need to maintain a bit of knee/hand pressure on the sheet to hold it in place against the box while cutting. Be careful on the pressure toward the end of the cut - too much pressure and the sheet will break creating the classic "blow out".
Wouldn't it help to get the kicker behind the board and press the board to the kicker rather than the box?
Or will this bring the sheet too far forward?
I hate seeing guys break the rock or the paper at this point and thought this might work much the same as it wouls if you were a slow old dinosaur using a keyhole saw like me![email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Well, as usual some part of my explanation was "just as clear as mud".
By the time I am making cut outs, the drywall sheet is already partially fastened / tacked - no fasteners within 2' - the wieght of the sheet is already supported. The slight hand / knee pressure merely keeps the board from bouncing around during cutting.
I am merely trying to be sure that the box is in contact with back of the drywall, in some / most instances the DW will only be in direct contact with one edge of the box - hand pressure keeps it as close as possible to the box edges without bowing the board - bow during the cut = blow out toward the end of the cut.
I hang horizonally (sp?) 99% of the time which puts most outlet boxes in the bottom sheet, I tack the top of the sheet, which puts the top edge of the outlet boxes about 3' down from the top edge.
Since the outlet box sticks out ~1/2" from the framing it keeps the DW from hanging straight against the framing. The box will really only contact the DW on its top edge. The slight hand / knee pressure I mentioned just keeps the DW as close as possible to the box.
I ignored boxes for wall switches and over counter outlets in this description, they usually fall very near the seams in a horizonal application. Since they fall near or on a seam, they are easier to do since the DW will have less angle in relation to the wall at the point where you need to cut.
Did the mud clear up any?
On the topic of keyhole saws, I still have a set of two which I shortened to about a 3" blade length and reset the teeth so they were straight of angled to one side only; one is set straight/right, one saw is set straight/left . These special tools allowed me to cut clockwise or counter-clockwise around plastic boxes without chewing up the box.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Yes, 10-4, I read you loud and clear.
Whenever I have done substantial amounts of DW, "we" would mark the outlets on the floor prior to.
Hang (yes horizontal) nailling tops only, mark outlets, slip kicker behind the sheet to hold it away from the outlet, but push it against the flange on the kicker thus locking it steady while cutting.
Interesting trick with the KH saws. I'll have to look at that.
Again. thanks for your informative posts.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Eric,
I understand what you do with the kicker now!
I think that would work fine while cutting with a Zip tool - I'll have to try it the next time around. I always have a spare foot while cutting and that would free up an additional hand.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I've tried this a few times with my new roto-zip, and I always end up missing the box or chewing right through it. What I mean is, I'm not able to sense where the edge of the box is -- I can start at the middle, but then I go way too far out and produce a horrific hole that requires lots of patching. What am I doing wrong?
Before I do this again for real, I'm going to set up some dummy studs, boxes and DW in my basement and try it.
Are you using cutters that have a 'guide' tip that is edge free for the first 1/8" or so to prevent cutting through boxes?
Probably not (DanH raised the same point.) I think they are milled to cut the entire length and that could certqainly be paret of the problem. I will look for the right kind. Thanks for the tip.
If you're chewing through the box you must not be using the right type of bit. You need to be sure to use the drywall bits. (Drywall bits have a "pilot" on the tip, and also have a backwards twist so they push the dust into the wall rather than into your face.)
Also, study the way the bit rotates and be sure to go around the box in the right direction. As with a router, you need to make the rotation of the bit push the tool against the "fence" (the box edge in this case). This means you go around the box in a particular direction (I forget whether it's CW or CCW -- I always have to figure it out before I start).
If you go around in the wrong direction the bit will take off into the drywall, but go in the right direction and it will hug the box nicely.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Try the following during the learning curve:
1) Always use guidepoint bits. If you are still not "finding / sensing" the edge of the box, you are probably not setting the bit deep enough.
Once you locate the inside of the box and start outward to find the edge, the guidepoint may be passing right over the edge of the box and not contacting it thus you never feel it and pass right by. This is probably caused by the angle created between the box and DW. You will need 1/2" or 3/4" of bit passing through the DW.
2) Dummy studs and scrap DW are a great way to learn. However,you must make your learning situation realistic so the DW has to cover the box at an angle - just like it will when you are hanging DW for real. By experimenting with scrap you can play with the depth settings and develope a feel for the tool.
3) Try setting up your dummy situation and cutting out the inside of the box, once you have the inside cut out, you have a visual reference for the outside cut, you will know when you are drifting away from the box.
4) Try learning on metal boxes, they will provide an audible clue during learning ( they make noise when the guide point is in contact, plastic doesn't). The best metal boxes to learn on are those octagonal ceiling boxes - if you can cut those without problems, you are ready for the real thing.
5) Chewing through the box is the result of too much pressure - the guidepoint bits will cut / melt through a plastic box in rather short order. The sharper the bit, the better you will be able to feel the box. Dull bits = excessive pressure all of the time = easier to miss the extra resistance of the box edge.
6) Don't try to cut at the feed rate which the guy in the video uses - he's not learning. Slow down. You may also notice he only cut windows in the video - no boxes.
7) Order of difficulty - 1/2" regular - easiest; then 5/8" regular, 1/2" greenboard, 5/8" greenboard is the hardest.
Know what you mean about the horrific holes - sometimes I see them at HfH projects, I try to do all of the box cuts myself!
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited to include item #7.
Edited 12/6/2005 7:14 pm ET by JTC1
Thanks for your step-by-step post- this sounds like the perfect way to cut out box openings in drywall. No double-handling of the rock, unlike Jeff's lipstick method. That'd be of great help with ceiling fixtures for sure!
Just as long as your electrical inspector will let you pass a rough-in inspection with only the wire pulled and no receptacles or switches installed, which is the definition of "rough in" so there shouldn't be any problem. Glad I read this when I did- I was planning to terminate a lot of the wiring before putting the rock up, just to have more receptacles and lighting in place while I did the rest of the work. Having those receptacles and switches in would caused a lot more work than it saved!
Our electrical inspectors prefer that there be no receptacles, switches, etc. present at the rough-in inspection.
They will let us connect a few for light, tool power, etc. Our inspectors will usually pull out a few coils to make sure we have the grounds twisted and nutted together.
How to remember the all important direction of cutting (good for old guys like me): OUTside of box = cOUTer-clockwise - this is only useful if you are old enough to remember which way a clock hand turns!
Hope the post helps you - happy rockin!
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
You can see a demonstration of this on video if you look under interior finish articles at the fine homebuilding home page.
Amateurs talk strategy, Generals talk logistics.
Cool. I'll check that out now. Thanks
U want my old fashion way?
works with either rotozip or drywall/keyhole saw.
first step ... ask the wife what tubes of lipstick she's not using anymore.
second step ... steal them.
now ... simply mark the edges of the boxes with the lipstick. Just run it around ... heavy.
now ... set your sheet of drywall in place ... push against the box ...
and the box outlines are now transfered onto the back of the drywall.
just follow the line with the rotozip or handsaw.
if U do go the zip-plunge method ... make sure it's a guide bit as already stated ... and .. make sure the bit isn't extended too far. The tip out about 3/4" to an inch or so is all ya need ... just enough for the cutting spirals to go thru the 1/2 material and the guide tip into then along side the box.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Nice one. I was originally thinking of trying something similar to that in principal. I was gonna take the chalk out or try laying down heavy pencil lead or something. Nice touch with the lipstick.
There are also sheet metal strips, bent in a shape to fit the inside edge of the box (kind of like some of those box extenders), with teeth pointing outward. You insert the gizmo, temporarily hang the rock and tap against the teeth, then remove and cut.
Also there's a tool that consists of several magnetic gizmos that fit into the boxes, and another magnetic gizmo that, when placed on the rock surface, will center over the gizmos in the box. You mark around this second gizmo and then can either remove and cut the rock with a keyhole saw or cut it in place with a Rotozip. Works great so long as you get the gizmos right side up (I discovered).
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Sure sounds like the world is filling up with gizmos. I can't help but think Red Green would use duct tape and a small chain saw : )
U sure its the wifes lipstick???? I think chatruse looks very good..matches you eyes....:>)
Im gonna try the the next time I have to hang some rock..
I've tried that - but the grease gets smeared over the edges and face of the board, messing up the paint job; and the sparkies (electricians) don't like it.All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
I used the lipstick marking trick in the addition I just built. It worked great, and I used a keyhole saw to cut out for the boxes. IMPORTANT: clean off the lipstick BEFORE you or your electrician wire the boxes. I ended up with lipstick everywhere when I was wiring my boxes. It's a pain to get off of freshly painted drywall- trust me!
"IMPORTANT: clean off the lipstick BEFORE you or your electrician wire the boxes."
And by all means, do not get it on your collar.
> IMPORTANT: clean off the lipstick ....
Maybe tape up a sheet of carbon paper facing out over the box? Perhaps less mess than the lipstick method?
-- J.S.
Nobody has yet brought up the classic technique of measuring. I saw some drywallers doing that on a Loew's I built the other year. It was a special fiberglass re-inforced gypsum board and they used a small circular saw. One guy would call out "From the left, 23 5/16. 25 5/16. From the top. 18 1/2, 21 1/2."... and so on. Perhaps they used a drywall square to draw the lines.
By the way, I cut the sheetrock with my utility knive first. This leaves a nice, sharp, professional looking edge. This has two results: if they just look at it, they say, "Nice job." If they see me doing it, they get all upset and say that it takes too long and I'm wasting time and the cover plate will hide it anyway.
~Peter
Will Clinton and the intelligent George get together again for this latest Seatle-Tacoma disaster?
That is the way I was learnt . Use the tape as a knife guide. Measure the box from the side that all measures will be taken . Like from the right side or top. You never measure the far side of the box unless it is not standard . Usualy all boxes on a job are the same size . We used a circle cutter for the octagon box. Then cut the face with the utility knife and score the back and smak with the DW hammer . POP a perfect hole or damnclose. Big openings got an Xcut in the back side and then it poped out better.
How do you glue the panels to the wall if you cut with a zip saw?
This may be an old method - I'm right in the middle of rocking my new shop, 24 x 32 clear span. I dropped a plumb-bob from the center of each ceiling box and marked a dot on the floor. Easy to transfer that mark back up to the drywall after it's fastened to the ceiling.
Greg
.....How do you glue the panels to the wall if you cut with a zip saw?.........
This is what I do: Measure and cut panel to length. Dry fit for length (if you are not sure). Apply glue to studs. Tack screw / nail as described. Cut openings with zip tool. Press panel into position. Final fasten.
You have probably "contaminated" the adhesive below the box on it's mounting stud with dust. Shoot a couple extra scews in that area if you are worried.
I cannot comment on a drywall job which is held in place purely with adhesive as I have never done that - there have always been at least some mechanical fasteners (nails or screws) in every sheet I ever hung.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
> Nobody has yet brought up the classic technique of measuring.
What we're looking for is something quicker, easier, and less error prone than that. Tell me "twenty-five and seven eighths" and I may hear "twenty-seven and five eighths".
-- J.S.
Then what are you going to do with all those leftover lipsticks?
If you used those "lasts 24 hours" kind, they don't come off. No need for clean up.
...what are you going to do with all those leftover lipsticks?"....
Use them to solve door lock problems, apply to the end of a deadbolt, slam it into the jamb a few times and you'll know exactly where to put the plate.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Yes, I have used the plastic adjustable electrical boxes. Several observations about them:
1. It's easy to crank them in so they are flush with the studs, hang the DW, then cut out for the boxes. Last step: crank them out again to be flush with the finished surface of the wall. Perfect alignment (but see comments below, also).
2. Doing it this way, it's easy to forget to cut out for one. FOrtunately for me the one that I missed was at the end of the wiring string, and wasn't required by code, so I didn't have to go find it (hard to find buried plastic boxes!).
3. I wasn't happy with the alignment of the boxes when I was finished: by this I mean trying to get the front face of the box parallel with the wall surface. I have a number of them that I couldn't align to my satisfaction.
4. and they wiggle a lot more than metal boxes when you put a plug in or pull one out of the receptacles.
In summary, I don't think that I would use them again. I'm too fussy!
Bob Chapman
Actually I have found several buried boxes with one of those non-contact voltage detectors. Looks kind of like a fat pen with a plastic tip.
The wire needs to be hot during the search - I assume you did not connect the line going to the end run in the last visible box. You will need to connect it during the search - hopefully the hot is not in contact with the neutral or ground - can figure that out with a meter before connecting. If you have continuity between hot and neutral or ground - the search becomes more problematic.
I have a Gardner Bender with adjustable sensitivity - will read a thermostat wire at 24v(?) if you can actually touch the wire sheath. Will usually detect 120V through 1/2" DW. Tool is around $20 I think - useful for other things later.
It should not be that hard to find your buried end run box as you know the approximate location and elevation on the wall.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 12/8/2005 8:37 am ET by JTC1
JTC1: Thanks. If I get ambitious, I may get one of those testers and try it.
Bob
I just did the drywalling the kitchen last week. My "rotozip" tool called a Dremal (sp?) with a dry wall cutter that's what I used. I'm not a full time drywaller but doing my own kitchen. I wish I read this post first before I did cut the drywalls. I did good with the boxes with only one mistake, the tool seems to want to "run away" and I lost the feel of the outlets. That thought me to pull the cutter towards the box while running it around carefully. Used that trick towards the window and man that was a tight fitting around the windows and I wouldn't need to frame it!
Anyone using those adjustable depth boxes?
Those look great to me, but I would be curious of how electricians felt about them.
I've used adjustable depth boxes on occasion, but only to solve specific mounting problems.
The problem which they solve nicely is a "too thick" wall covering for the standard nail on boxes as the nails will not hit framing lumber when the box is positioned with the appropriate "reveal". Double layer of drywall planned, etc.
There is only one thing not to like - the price as compared to standard boxes.
There are other solutions, like using old work boxes, but using adjustables a few places does not raise the eyebrow of the inspector like a coil of Romex dangling from a staple and a verbal explanation at the rough wire inspection. The adjustables can be rough wired and then adjusted at the DW stage or later at the electrical trim stage.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.